The argument for The Empire as a Game 3 Core Faction

Selakah#1254

There are 2 (or 3, depending on how you want to count it) “core” army books left to implement in Total War: Warhammer. Those are: The Ogre Kingdoms, The Daemons of Chaos, and the Chaos Dwarfs. Going by the Russian data mine and the leaked Mortal Empires map, as well as some recent hints by CA on the “What the Teams are Working On” developer blogs, we can surmise that The Dark Lands and Chaos will feature heavily in Game 3. In addition, the Warriors of Chaos faction currently exists in the game in an unfinished state, missing a significant chunk of their roster and awaiting a much-needed overhaul of their core mechanics. The unfinished state of the Warriors of Chaos faction has been acknowledged by CA in the lead-up to the release of Total War: Warhammer.


At this point, I believe it is very safe to assume that Chaos will play a major role in Game 3. With that, there have been countless arguments about how you cannot have an entire game with no good guys or a “money” faction to act as a hook; how the Daemons of Chaos cannot possibly be the focus of the expansion; how CA wouldn’t dare release Game 3 with 4 Daemons of Chaos factions as the core factions. Instead, people have been speculating that the good guys in Game 3 will be Kislev, or that the map will be extended all the way into the East to make room for Cathay, the Kingdom of Ind and maybe even Nippon.


I don’t think this is going to happen. In fact, I think Game 3 is going to catch a lot of people by surprise in terms of the headlining factions.


With all signs pointing to a strong Chaos presence in Game 3, I think we can very safely expect a massive overhaul of the Chaos Invasion and everything that goes with it. If the Daemons of Chaos are, in fact, a headlining faction for Game 3, there is no way CA would release Game 3 without some sort of Chaos Invasion or End Times mechanic, which will likely be the end-game goal for the Daemons of Chaos faction (and possibly the revamped Chaos Undivided faction). The ultimate goal of Chaos is to take over the Warhammer world and turn it into an extension of the Realm of Chaos; to bring about the End Times.


Here we run into a problem: in order to have a Chaos Invasion, you need something to invade. The much-speculated setting for Game 3, The Darklands, does not provide a suitable target for a revamped Chaos Invasion. Here come the endless hordes of Chaos, pouring forth from the Chaos Wastelands to invade… Zhar-Naggrund? No, it doesn’t make any sense. You cannot have a Chaos Invasion without the Old World, without the Empire of Man. The Chaos Invasion and the Daemons of Chaos must be able to march and trample all over the nations of men and raze the imperial capital of Altdorf for the sake of gameplay.


With this in mind, my prediction for the Core Races of Game 3 is as follows:

• The Empire
  
• Daemons of Chaos
  
• Warriors of Chaos
  
• Chaos Dwarfs with Hobgoblins
  

With the following races coming later, as Campaign Packs:

• Ogre Kingdoms
  
• Kislev
  
• Lahmian + Necrarch Vampires
  

The campaign map would look like this (credit to forum user LordSolarMarch for creating this map):




This type of arrangement solves many problems:

1. It allows CA to fully flesh out what is arguably the most important faction in all of Warhammer: Fantasy Battles: The Empire of Man. Do you think it's a coincidence the Empire only got 3 LLs in Game 1? They were saving them for Game 3 all along! The Empire on Game 3 could have, at release, the missing Amethyst and Gold Wizard, the missing Knightly Orders, all of the Wizard Lords and the Celestial Hurricanum.
   
   
2. It provides Game 3 with a "good guys" faction that's made out of humans. Players tend to gravitate towards human factions and the Empire remains a fan favorite.
   
   
3. It solves the problem of having a Chaos-themed game with no appropriate foil/target for Chaos.
   
   
4. It allows CA to easily and quickly incorporate Game 2 content into Game 3's core map by simply bolting on the New World to the west side of Game 3's core map. Instead of having to maintain two completely separate maps (Vortex and Mortal Empires), Game 3's Immortal Empires map would simply be Game 3's core map with the New World and Southlands re-attached.
   
   
5. It allows CA to properly overhaul some of the outdated Old World content, such as the battlemaps.
   

What do you guys think? I don't think it's possible to have a Chaos-themed game and not have the traditional, loreful foil.

tfwoods3

I have not read your post, but I agree Empire needs to be in 3

azitrax#2334

Interesting points, it would be fine with me if they give us 4 new legendary lords for the Empire, but the 3 from TWW1 should only be playable if you own game 1. But 3 new empire startpos's and like the Reiksmarshal starting in Altdorf would be cool.

Surge_2#1464

Makes total sense to me, it will either be Empire Proper, or Kislev as the representation of Man vs Chaos.

IzzyStradlin#2842

Kislev or bust. I don't think there's any honest hope for The Empire having any playable presence in Warhammer III.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

Ogres as a DLC? Why not make undivided Demons a DLC? They're both 8e books.

I highly doubt they'd re-release two races we've already paid for as part of a full priced game. That'd cause hellacious backlash because it's unfair and a bad idea.

Game 3's lineup works well with Ogres, Demons, Chaos Dwarfs, and Kislev and Cathay as core / pre order bonus.

talonn#7575

No, sorry but Kislev > Empire for game 3

Valkaar#2507

I mean, I think the 'Chaos needs something to invade' thing will take place in a revamped invasion in the 'Mortal Empires/Combined Map' that is released after Game 3's initial launch period. That will be the 'theme' there, whether or not the Chaos invasion will be successful. And it will hopefully be much stronger/more impactful than it currently feels in Game 2.

Game 3's standalone campaign though, I think the 'story' or theme there will be much more about Chaos coalescing...it's been dormant or held at bay for X amount of time, but now it's stirring and marshaling forces. So playing as Chaos, you're centralizing power, and as the immediate neighboring races, you're detecting that something is up and responding to it accordingly. As a result, Chaos, and its immediate neighbors will be the only powers involved. So Kislev will be the major player, not the Empire.

Think of Game 3's Stand Alone Campaign as Gandalf's/Osgiliath's opening moves when they first learn that Sauron is back and that the Ring of Power has been discovered.

Whereas the combined map will be the march of the black host out against Minas Tirith.

azitrax#2334

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

Ogres as a DLC? Why not make undivided Demons a DLC? They're both 8e books.

I highly doubt they'd re-release two races we've already paid for as part of a full priced game. That'd cause hellacious backlash because it's unfair and a bad idea.

Game 3's lineup works well with Ogres, Demons, Chaos Dwarfs, and Kislev and Cathay as core / pre order bonus.

I doubt we'll ever see Cathay, but I would love it if I am wrong.

If any of the others are going to be a DLC, I would think it would be the Chaos Dwarves as they did not have an official army book.
I could see a revisited empire with Middenland, Averland, Riekland, and one other start. They would need to completely redo the empire's Mechanics to account for the other electors starts, and the fact that you could have more than one claimant to the throne. Some kind of political system to represent the confederation that is the Empire of Man. They would also need to add more units like the knightly orders and missing heroes, lords and wizards. If they added enough content I think they could get away with using the empire as a core race.

That being said, Karl, Volkmar and Gelt could only be playable if you own game 1 and possibly only in Immortal Empires. I will not pay for the same LLs twice.

Surge_2#1464

I dont understand at all, why any of the remaining 'real' races would be DLC.

If every game has released with 4 races/factions, and 3 real ones are left...how is there any argument to make them DLC?

Arthas_Menethil#3421

azitrax said:

Interesting points, it would be fine with me if they give us 4 new legendary lords for the Empire, but the 3 from TWW1 should only be playable if you own game 1. But 3 new empire startpos's and like the Reiksmarshal starting in Altdorf would be cool.

Kurt from the Army book can start outside of it considering that he's "one of Franz's most trusted military commanders" and the army book saying that he lead either the Reiksguard or Imperial armies around Kislev(Ostland) and Southern Araby (Sudenburg).

Omega_Warrior

Nothing they can add to the empire will make them play differently enough to justify them taking the slot of a completely new race. Ultimately they will always be a race that relies on swordsmen, spears, handguns, and Calvary. When we are currently adding races like the vampire coast and tomb kings that have completely new ways of fighting, adding a few extra units to empire really isn't good enough.

So the idea that they would not just retread a roster but have 1/4 of the map for the entirety of the empires lands from game 1 are outright outlandish and just not consistent with what CA has done thus far. Especially not while there are still options for new races.

kitekaze#9211

Surge_2 said:

I dont understand at all, why any of the remaining 'real' races would be DLC.

If every game has released with 4 races/factions, and 3 real ones are left...how is there any argument to make them DLC?

The same argument as why beastmen, wood elves, tomb king are DLC factions.

DaGangster#8697

I'd rather they just get the last and hopefully best update. I'd rather have a unique kislev.

Surge_2#1464

kitekaze said:

Surge_2 said:

I dont understand at all, why any of the remaining 'real' races would be DLC.

If every game has released with 4 races/factions, and 3 real ones are left...how is there any argument to make them DLC?

The same argument as why beastmen, wood elves, tomb king are DLC factions.

Not even close to the same. Ogres, Daemons and Chaos Dwarves are literally all that's even close to a real faction which is left to be implemented.

Icestrugle

There are not going to sell the same major faction in 2 different games. Please close this thread, its so out of question.

talonn#7575

Icestrugle said:

There are not going to sell the same major faction in 2 different games. Please close this thread, its so out of question.

I would be mad if they do >:(

Canuovea#6291

I agree that such repetition seems a bit unlikely, but there is no harm in speculation so long as everyone remains civil.

And besides, sometimes our expectations are overturned, for good or ill. Old Friend, anyone? Who could have expected we'd get the Vampire Coast? So perhaps we will see a part of the Empire in game 3? I do doubt we will play it though.

Combat_Wombat

Empire being a core faction in two separate games? I think not.

Michael4537

Could be. It may be Keislev or Cathay as well.

tfwoods3

Personally I think the final game should be the entire world done to perfection, including everything as it all comes together. There could be enough new content for each race to make it fresh.

If not part 3. There should be a Grand Edition with the whole world after 3.

DEM0N_LLAMA#6201

Paying for 2 races we already have and not to mention lord packs and FLC lords.......what are Chaos Warrios and Empire gonna have 7-9 LL each?Yea.......not gonna happen.

griffithx#1314

Having half of the new game be a rehash of the first game factions would make soooo many people (including me) very upset.

Noisdika

May be farfetched but in CA's last development update for future Fantasy content, they briefly mention at the end "...for Sigmar...", in some way. If anything, maybe game 3 will incorporate age of sigmar and therefore the "good" faction wont be the Empire but the Stormcast Eternals; just a thought.

Maidros98

Noisdika said:

May be farfetched but in CA's last development update for future Fantasy content, they briefly mention at the end "...for Sigmar...", in some way. If anything, maybe game 3 will incorporate age of sigmar and therefore the "good" faction wont be the Empire but the Stormcast Eternals; just a thought.

What? This is even more unlikely than CA selling factions twice. How would stormcast exist when end times hasn't even happened?

urbanmech

Noisdika said:

May be farfetched but in CA's last development update for future Fantasy content, they briefly mention at the end "...for Sigmar...", in some way. If anything, maybe game 3 will incorporate age of sigmar and therefore the "good" faction wont be the Empire but the Stormcast Eternals; just a thought.

The bloody Ground Marines?

Karl Franz Ascendant has more of a chance of turning up than Age of Sigmar material.

RikRiorik#9890

The Chaos invasion only matters in the game 3 ME variant. And there is plenty of stuff for it to invade in that setting. Game 3’s Vortex equivalent will have it’s own focus that doesn’t require it to be about invading a world that isn’t available on the map and diluting the experience just in order to cram/shoe horn/jam the Empire all up in that bizznazz.

Maidros98

RikRiorik said:

The Chaos invasion only matters in the game 3 ME variant. And there is plenty of stuff for it to invade in that setting. Game 3’s Vortex equivalent will have it’s own focus that doesn’t require it to be about invading a world that isn’t available on the map and diluting the experience just in order to cram/shoe horn/jam the Empire all up in that bizznazz.

It could be about nagash.

Steph#6413

I was wondering the same thing in another thread.

I agree that having Empire as game 3 core could make sense. And so there could be some overlapp between game 1 map and the new map for game 3, which will probably be some part of the East world.

When you look at the map eblow, the area east of the orange line, including Cathay and Ind, or even Nippon, woudnd't be much bigger than the Vortex map

Badlands similar size to Nagaroth, Ind + Khuresh similar to Lustria, Cathay + Nippon + Steppes similar to Southlands
And I'm not even counting Ulthuan.
Even if you count only the part of New World + Souhtliands + Ulthuan added to ME, it is similar size to Badlands to Cathay

Sor for Game 3, having the whole Eastern World + East of Empire / Kislev is someting that could work.



So at the moment, it is sill opened. We have several possibilities

There could even be a "dream scenario" with game 3 going East of Empire + Kislev up to Cathay, I think it's technically possible. And it goes southward as far as the orange line, it could include a part of Ind

Infinite_Maw

@LordSolarMach Good job, the map you presented is arguably the most likely that I have seen so far. The alternative is having more vertical room to cover more of the chaos wastes to the north.

#940261

I agree, that both Warriors of Chaos and Empire are crucial parts of Game 3, that need a rework, but there is no way they will take 2 slots from your typical 4 faction lineup in the core game. The reworked factions should come alongside 4 new core ones, not instead of them.