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It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
I see this argument a lot; "Vortex Map covers a lot of territory, so WH3 map can cover just as much territory. That way we can have the Far East." The Vortex campaign covers all that territory by necessity. It just isn't Warhammer without the Lizardmen and Dark Elves and you can't do LM and DE without Lustria and Naggaroth. LM and DE are incredibly important core races of the setting, part of the "Big 16." In that respect, covering that much territory is completely justified.
On the other hand, Cathay and friends are not exactly tent-pole fixtures of the WH world and they're not really known by players unless they're either on this forum (and others like it) or diehard WH fans. It's not necessary to expand the map so far east because a Warhammer game without Cathay would still be Warhammer. And considering they'd have to either simplify the map in order to include that much territory by removing factions and locations or increase end turn times by keeping the same amount of detail (as in a commensurate number of AI/NPC factions), there's a risk associated with encompassing that much territory.
It's possible they could be popular with the wider player base, but it's also possible that including those races could be perceived by the general audience as just a rehash of 3K and Shogun shoved into WH and thus nothing more than a cheap cash grab. You and I know that's not necessarily the case, but it'd be naive to think CA isn't considering that potential perception. I think it's possible that CA is unwilling to stake the success of the third installment on such a risk. They might take that risk with a DLC, but probably not the base game.
All this isn't to say that it can't be done. With the direction CA is going, I don't know what to expect anymore. Personally, I'm not too keen on a rehash of the Old World either. My expectation for the 3rd game is probably less than either an Old World Reprise or the Far East, but I think it's more in line with CA's current trends. Considering how much CA did with the source material for Vampire Coast, I don't think anyone can say at this point that Kislev can't be one of the anchors for WH3 and I think it's the option which poses the least amount of risk for a potential backlash.
Cathay comes out next year. As close as it will get. I will probably play it...
But dont expect them in Game three ...its almost sad every discussion about game three ends up with Cathay...I guess there is demand, but not much common sense...
And a lot of nostalgic Shogun fans in need for their asian fix ...
If CA crops the map then I can see ind, cathay and nippon as the whole warhammer map could be made
It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
But as Ben says that would be some clean slate factions. Like almost not warhammer but made into warhammer for this game.
I think CA can do it well
It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
There is no need to go east, when they can simply go North.
You would have space for Hobgoblins, Marauder Tribes, Warriors of Chaos (updated to be finally complete) updated Chaos Warrior Mechanics (again, they are unfinished) and a more natural inclusion of Chaos Daemons.
It would also tie in the combined map better, give even more territory for the mini-game map, and isnt being shoehorned in like the far east would be.
Just take this one, and add more Wastes/Steppes to the top.
And before someone say's the Darklands are empty....
and
and hmm what have we here...Nagashizzar, seems important.
There is more than enough content for Game 3, Far East is nothing but wishful thinking.
Have you watched ItalianSpartacus prediction video on a Dark Lands + Mountains of Mourn-centric Game 3 map before?
It fleshed out the map quite well with all the existing races (except the then unrevealed Vampire Coast) from lore information gathered throughout the Warhammer armybooks and supplements, without even having to resort to going east of the Mountains of Mourn.
How would this empire faction be different to the empire faction I already have? A few units crossing over is fine, but I dont want to pay for the same army twice.
How would this empire faction be different to the empire faction I already have? A few units crossing over is fine, but I dont want to pay for the same army twice.
Who say you will pay for them ?
You will pay for game 3, and Empire fit as main enemy of Woc, and need update.
They can be in the game as enemies of chaos and only playable for those who own game 1 not as a core faction but I doubt even that since the map will have to overlap too much with game 1 map
She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
They can be in the game as enemies of chaos and only playable for those who own game 1 not as a core faction but I doubt even that since the map will have to overlap too much with game 1 map
This is why the mini-map campaign will be against Kislev...
How would this empire faction be different to the empire faction I already have? A few units crossing over is fine, but I dont want to pay for the same army twice.
Who say you will pay for them ?
You will pay for game 3, and Empire fit as main enemy of Woc, and need update.
If they take a core slot then we are paying for them...
I am The Beast of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
If anyone has NOT watched that video above, please do. Its a very clear picture of exactly what many of us have been saying and its not surprising because its based on the actual setting.
This is all the GAME 1 and GAME 2 factions that are canonically already present!
How would this empire faction be different to the empire faction I already have? A few units crossing over is fine, but I dont want to pay for the same army twice.
Who say you will pay for them ?
You will pay for game 3, and Empire fit as main enemy of Woc, and need update.
If they take a core slot then we are paying for them...
That is IF.
If you own game 1, you shoudl get them for free, if you wont, then you pay for them, simple imho
Do you really thing CA could justify a FULL game (not a DLC) with an area that is only this?
Between the Chaos Wastes, Kislev, Dark Lands, and Mountains of Mourn, it's roughly about the same amount of territory as the first game and it has even more faction diversity, so yea.
Excellent said OP. Nice. Also Chaos armies need to be able to teleport on certain places on each continent, these places are to be connected, you have to be at one place to teleport to another of these spots. Consider them Warp portals. Norsca and wastes and empire and kislev are covered by one spot so you can't rush victory, badlands and dawi and Tomb Kings another, HE + DE + lizards another.
Do you really thing CA could justify a FULL game (not a DLC) with an area that is only this?
Between the Chaos Wastes, Kislev, Dark Lands, and Mountains of Mourn, it's roughly about the same amount of territory as the first game and it has even more faction diversity, so yea.
Exactly this.
Note the image I posted from the video is only PRE EXISTING CONTENT. Fill in the rest with Ogres, Hobgoblins, Daemons and Chaos Dwarves and Kislev.
-If you did Darklands, Ind, Cathay, Nippon, and Khuresh the map would be bigger in new territory than Vortex.
-Cathay, Ind, Khuresh, and Nippon never received official support, official army lists, were never listed in White Dwarfs or other expanded material other than side fluff mentions. Most never even had a single figure produced even to be dumped in a Dogs of War lists which even the highly obscure Amazons and Albion did.
-CA got a lot of negative attention over cut content that was the Warriors of Chaos. They said they wanted a better option and introduced Norsca. They were happy how Norsca turned out on a PR level as stated so. The programing debacle is separate of this. It requires them going back to something they wanted to change and got negative press on to add a game 3 race as preorder.
-The Mountains of Mourn are huge in size and this is often underestimated here.
-Cathay is on the east side of the Mountains of Mourn and Cathay proper even farther.
-The Great Maw is not where the Ogre Kingdoms are. It's a place of pilgrimage not territory of any of the kingdoms. It's also very far east. It might not even make it in the game if they do an all Darklands centric map. But Ogres can't stay there long it's covered in chaos taint and they will eventually mutate.
-The Skytitan lands are the same as the maw. Farther east, and not part of Ogre Kingdoms proper. They're not hospitable and the ogres that remained are are mutated by chaos taint to the point they're not considered Ogres anymore.
-There is a giant inhospitable portion of terrain between the Ogre Kindgoms and Cathay.
-The Kingdom of Ind is closer to all this than Cathay. It's right south of the Ogre Kingdoms Proper and actually borders the Darklands in the south east.
So now some opinions.
Cathay is way overstated as anything. Aside from never having a single figure or army list there is more lore to the Vampire Coast, Norsca, or Araby. And many other minor factions not in game or under represented in game. It's a lot farther from the darklands with nothing inbetween. Ind is closer. There is a billion people in India to that also buy games, you can buy into that just as easily as you can buy into the Chinese market with the appeal and it actually borders the map of Darklands proper. Cathay does not.
If Cathay or any of the far east factions was to come into play they would have to build everything from the ground up. All 4 LL's, all heros, the entire roster of basic to fantastic units. Sure some like the monks have a mention but nothing of what they can do on TT. Noooooothing, or really even outside of TT. The mentions are few to none. They have to build their faction aesthetic even if yes they can borrow heavily from IRL examples but there isnt' even hits how Warhammer takes its own spin on that.
So people trying to compare them to Norsca or Vampire Coast are bonkers. Those had army lists from official sources, they had more lore, they had descriptions, and figures aplenty. Even the borrowed units existed in some resources. Cathay and friends don't have this.
CA has stated multiple times they took a beating for game 1's preorder strategy, that they were happy with Norsca's reception other than the programming issues. So why on earth would they be encouraged to go backwards? Seems more likely to me they'd try to work around the programming issues first.
Darklands from the Spine to Mountains of Mourn, from south ocean to northern wastes is already a very large map area. It can be extended a little further west to let the empire and kislev have representation.
The Empire doesn't need a large representation. Game 2 it has Sudenburg, that's it. If it's not the primary focus they don't really need that. And the Mortal Empire equivalent in game 3 will still be a major selling point. Mortal Empires is thousands of times played more than Vortex when they published the stats. So they're going to care more about the Empire there than on the new scenario in my opinion.
Some statements of facts. -If you did Darklands, Ind, Cathay, Nippon, and Khuresh the map would be bigger in new territory than Vortex.
False. See my map above. New World + Southland = 560. Darklans, Ind, Cathay, Nippon and Khuresh is 350. Actually, it would be same size as New World, but excluding Southlands. So adding them would actually be quite smaller than Vortex.
Some statements of facts. -If you did Darklands, Ind, Cathay, Nippon, and Khuresh the map would be bigger in new territory than Vortex.
False. See my map above. New World + Southland = 560. Darklans, Ind, Cathay, Nippon and Khuresh is 350. Actually, it would be same size as New World, but excluding Southlands. So adding them would actually be quite smaller than Vortex.
On the old map you produced, that is not at all how they're represented on Mortal Empires or even the Vortex. They're shrunk down and have major parts cut off. The actual original Game 1 map already shows it's a flawed set of logic you're using to base on size. As it's significantly smaller on that map but significantly large in representation in game 1. So unless they start squishing down all the representation of factions significantly in all the far east and darklands you're not even remotely dealing with any accurate representation
Especially with your yellow box with is all filled with land that will have actual factions on it and not the large portions of water you highlight.
I'm in an interesting position on this, I don't care for the Empire at all. Even remotely. Blah humans. But, I still recognize they need a lot of work to be brought up to par including new start positions and mechanics and hopefully new LLs. Putting them in game 3 would give them all of that, but I would only fully support this if Kislev still came as a pre-order or in tandem with the Empire. Giving game 3 like 4.5 races type of thing. I'd rather have Kislev than Empire, but I know Empire is very popular and needs work.
SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
Empire needs at least one different start position which would include one new LL, a slight rework of the office mechanic and get one new campaign mechanic.
That is worthy of rework update nothing more. I really don't see people even thinking that Empire is gonna be a main faction of game 3. That would mean they would get 4 more LL at least, most likely 15-20 new units not even including the the ones coming with a Lord pack, new campaign mechanics, most likely rites, more ROR and even more Heros and Lords options.
I am sorry but the level of care between Empire and all other factions would be absurd. Not only are you asking people to pay again for a whole faction they already have but that would also be pretty insulting to all other factions. Saying something like the Empire is the most popular is also a bit silly since with plus 20 factions there is bound to be one that is the favorite and one would that is the least but they should all still be treated equally with same level of care. Not to mention most "popular" according to CA graph that I assume most people are going off from was only 24%, so what about the other 76% of players and that was even before game 2 was released so that 24% might be even smaller.
I do want Empire to get their rework and hopefully a new LL and maybe even 1-3 new units but anything beyond that just seems delusional.
I think this is incredibly unlikely and having another first game race as base is nigh impossible. If it were to happen ogres would be core and only one first race would appear.
The campaign map would look like this (credit to forum user LordSolarMarch for creating this map):
This map is looking really compelling. My only qualm is that it doesn't go north enough, the expanses of the daemon wastes will be important campaign ground.
With this in mind, my prediction for the Core Races of Game 3 is as follows: The Empire Daemons of Chaos Warriors of Chaos Chaos Dwarfs with Hobgoblins
Yeah, I'm not so sure about that, selling us both the Warriors of Chaos and The Empire again as starting factions. That's way too much.
Lets say the Empire does make it in again, but this time it comes with a playable Middenland subfaction complete with all the expected Ulrician units, celestial Hurricanum and other missing empire units.
Lets say that we start with.
The Empire Deamons of Chaos Chaos Dwarfs Ogre Kingdoms
-If you did Darklands, Ind, Cathay, Nippon, and Khuresh the map would be bigger in new territory than Vortex.
-Cathay, Ind, Khuresh, and Nippon never received official support, official army lists, were never listed in White Dwarfs or other expanded material other than side fluff mentions. Most never even had a single figure produced even to be dumped in a Dogs of War lists which even the highly obscure Amazons and Albion did.
-CA got a lot of negative attention over cut content that was the Warriors of Chaos. They said they wanted a better option and introduced Norsca. They were happy how Norsca turned out on a PR level as stated so. The programing debacle is separate of this. It requires them going back to something they wanted to change and got negative press on to add a game 3 race as preorder.
-The Mountains of Mourn are huge in size and this is often underestimated here.
-Cathay is on the east side of the Mountains of Mourn and Cathay proper even farther.
-The Great Maw is not where the Ogre Kingdoms are. It's a place of pilgrimage not territory of any of the kingdoms. It's also very far east. It might not even make it in the game if they do an all Darklands centric map. But Ogres can't stay there long it's covered in chaos taint and they will eventually mutate.
-The Skytitan lands are the same as the maw. Farther east, and not part of Ogre Kingdoms proper. They're not hospitable and the ogres that remained are are mutated by chaos taint to the point they're not considered Ogres anymore.
-There is a giant inhospitable portion of terrain between the Ogre Kindgoms and Cathay.
-The Kingdom of Ind is closer to all this than Cathay. It's right south of the Ogre Kingdoms Proper and actually borders the Darklands in the south east.
So now some opinions.
Cathay is way overstated as anything. Aside from never having a single figure or army list there is more lore to the Vampire Coast, Norsca, or Araby. And many other minor factions not in game or under represented in game. It's a lot farther from the darklands with nothing inbetween. Ind is closer. There is a billion people in India to that also buy games, you can buy into that just as easily as you can buy into the Chinese market with the appeal and it actually borders the map of Darklands proper. Cathay does not.
If Cathay or any of the far east factions was to come into play they would have to build everything from the ground up. All 4 LL's, all heros, the entire roster of basic to fantastic units. Sure some like the monks have a mention but nothing of what they can do on TT. Noooooothing, or really even outside of TT. The mentions are few to none. They have to build their faction aesthetic even if yes they can borrow heavily from IRL examples but there isnt' even hits how Warhammer takes its own spin on that.
So people trying to compare them to Norsca or Vampire Coast are bonkers. Those had army lists from official sources, they had more lore, they had descriptions, and figures aplenty. Even the borrowed units existed in some resources. Cathay and friends don't have this.
You're selling Cathay short. Cathay actually has a lot of mentioned units and at least 3 potential LL candidates in the lore, mostly from 6-8th edition WHFB. And as Norsca's Frost Wyrms showed, just because a unit didn't ever have stats or a description doesn't mean CA won't consider it.
Ind, Nippon, and Khuresh are definitely lore-starved, but lumping Cathay with them is disingenuous.
-If you did Darklands, Ind, Cathay, Nippon, and Khuresh the map would be bigger in new territory than Vortex.
-Cathay, Ind, Khuresh, and Nippon never received official support, official army lists, were never listed in White Dwarfs or other expanded material other than side fluff mentions. Most never even had a single figure produced even to be dumped in a Dogs of War lists which even the highly obscure Amazons and Albion did.
-CA got a lot of negative attention over cut content that was the Warriors of Chaos. They said they wanted a better option and introduced Norsca. They were happy how Norsca turned out on a PR level as stated so. The programing debacle is separate of this. It requires them going back to something they wanted to change and got negative press on to add a game 3 race as preorder.
-The Mountains of Mourn are huge in size and this is often underestimated here.
-Cathay is on the east side of the Mountains of Mourn and Cathay proper even farther.
-The Great Maw is not where the Ogre Kingdoms are. It's a place of pilgrimage not territory of any of the kingdoms. It's also very far east. It might not even make it in the game if they do an all Darklands centric map. But Ogres can't stay there long it's covered in chaos taint and they will eventually mutate.
-The Skytitan lands are the same as the maw. Farther east, and not part of Ogre Kingdoms proper. They're not hospitable and the ogres that remained are are mutated by chaos taint to the point they're not considered Ogres anymore.
-There is a giant inhospitable portion of terrain between the Ogre Kindgoms and Cathay.
-The Kingdom of Ind is closer to all this than Cathay. It's right south of the Ogre Kingdoms Proper and actually borders the Darklands in the south east.
So now some opinions.
Cathay is way overstated as anything. Aside from never having a single figure or army list there is more lore to the Vampire Coast, Norsca, or Araby. And many other minor factions not in game or under represented in game. It's a lot farther from the darklands with nothing inbetween. Ind is closer. There is a billion people in India to that also buy games, you can buy into that just as easily as you can buy into the Chinese market with the appeal and it actually borders the map of Darklands proper. Cathay does not.
If Cathay or any of the far east factions was to come into play they would have to build everything from the ground up. All 4 LL's, all heros, the entire roster of basic to fantastic units. Sure some like the monks have a mention but nothing of what they can do on TT. Noooooothing, or really even outside of TT. The mentions are few to none. They have to build their faction aesthetic even if yes they can borrow heavily from IRL examples but there isnt' even hits how Warhammer takes its own spin on that.
So people trying to compare them to Norsca or Vampire Coast are bonkers. Those had army lists from official sources, they had more lore, they had descriptions, and figures aplenty. Even the borrowed units existed in some resources. Cathay and friends don't have this.
You're selling Cathay short. Cathay actually has a lot of mentioned units and at least 3 potential LL candidates in the lore, mostly from 6-8th edition WHFB. And as Norsca's Frost Wyrms showed, just because a unit didn't ever have stats or a description doesn't mean CA won't consider it.
Ind, Nippon, and Khuresh are definitely lore-starved, but lumping Cathay with them is disingenuous.
Their mentions are not statted in any way or shape. I wont deny that Cathay has way more mentions of things than lets say Khuresh but if you delve into the really old stuff it doesn't have that much than Nippon which actual had a single figure with statline that is atrociously ancient. And they have potential lord mentions but some lord mentions are just that. Mentions. Like Yi, the emperor of Cathay. Can't tell me anything else about em except that he and his champion lost that day. I have said there is enough to dredge up if they want to and CA has certainly shown their willing.
But that is a far cry to compare them to even Vampire Coast which had a statted roster and Harkon actually having a backstory and goals.
-If you did Darklands, Ind, Cathay, Nippon, and Khuresh the map would be bigger in new territory than Vortex.
-Cathay, Ind, Khuresh, and Nippon never received official support, official army lists, were never listed in White Dwarfs or other expanded material other than side fluff mentions. Most never even had a single figure produced even to be dumped in a Dogs of War lists which even the highly obscure Amazons and Albion did.
-CA got a lot of negative attention over cut content that was the Warriors of Chaos. They said they wanted a better option and introduced Norsca. They were happy how Norsca turned out on a PR level as stated so. The programing debacle is separate of this. It requires them going back to something they wanted to change and got negative press on to add a game 3 race as preorder.
-The Mountains of Mourn are huge in size and this is often underestimated here.
-Cathay is on the east side of the Mountains of Mourn and Cathay proper even farther.
-The Great Maw is not where the Ogre Kingdoms are. It's a place of pilgrimage not territory of any of the kingdoms. It's also very far east. It might not even make it in the game if they do an all Darklands centric map. But Ogres can't stay there long it's covered in chaos taint and they will eventually mutate.
-The Skytitan lands are the same as the maw. Farther east, and not part of Ogre Kingdoms proper. They're not hospitable and the ogres that remained are are mutated by chaos taint to the point they're not considered Ogres anymore.
-There is a giant inhospitable portion of terrain between the Ogre Kindgoms and Cathay.
-The Kingdom of Ind is closer to all this than Cathay. It's right south of the Ogre Kingdoms Proper and actually borders the Darklands in the south east.
So now some opinions.
Cathay is way overstated as anything. Aside from never having a single figure or army list there is more lore to the Vampire Coast, Norsca, or Araby. And many other minor factions not in game or under represented in game. It's a lot farther from the darklands with nothing inbetween. Ind is closer. There is a billion people in India to that also buy games, you can buy into that just as easily as you can buy into the Chinese market with the appeal and it actually borders the map of Darklands proper. Cathay does not.
If Cathay or any of the far east factions was to come into play they would have to build everything from the ground up. All 4 LL's, all heros, the entire roster of basic to fantastic units. Sure some like the monks have a mention but nothing of what they can do on TT. Noooooothing, or really even outside of TT. The mentions are few to none. They have to build their faction aesthetic even if yes they can borrow heavily from IRL examples but there isnt' even hits how Warhammer takes its own spin on that.
So people trying to compare them to Norsca or Vampire Coast are bonkers. Those had army lists from official sources, they had more lore, they had descriptions, and figures aplenty. Even the borrowed units existed in some resources. Cathay and friends don't have this.
You're selling Cathay short. Cathay actually has a lot of mentioned units and at least 3 potential LL candidates in the lore, mostly from 6-8th edition WHFB. And as Norsca's Frost Wyrms showed, just because a unit didn't ever have stats or a description doesn't mean CA won't consider it.
Ind, Nippon, and Khuresh are definitely lore-starved, but lumping Cathay with them is disingenuous.
Ind, Nippon, and Khuresh are to Cathay, what Cathay is to Kislev, Araby, The Vampire Coast, The Dogs of War.
Cathay may have about half a list's worth of units that have been described and no rules. Nippon, Ind, and Khuresh have next to nothing.
Comments
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5 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeOn the other hand, Cathay and friends are not exactly tent-pole fixtures of the WH world and they're not really known by players unless they're either on this forum (and others like it) or diehard WH fans. It's not necessary to expand the map so far east because a Warhammer game without Cathay would still be Warhammer. And considering they'd have to either simplify the map in order to include that much territory by removing factions and locations or increase end turn times by keeping the same amount of detail (as in a commensurate number of AI/NPC factions), there's a risk associated with encompassing that much territory.
It's possible they could be popular with the wider player base, but it's also possible that including those races could be perceived by the general audience as just a rehash of 3K and Shogun shoved into WH and thus nothing more than a cheap cash grab. You and I know that's not necessarily the case, but it'd be naive to think CA isn't considering that potential perception. I think it's possible that CA is unwilling to stake the success of the third installment on such a risk. They might take that risk with a DLC, but probably not the base game.
All this isn't to say that it can't be done. With the direction CA is going, I don't know what to expect anymore. Personally, I'm not too keen on a rehash of the Old World either. My expectation for the 3rd game is probably less than either an Old World Reprise or the Far East, but I think it's more in line with CA's current trends. Considering how much CA did with the source material for Vampire Coast, I don't think anyone can say at this point that Kislev can't be one of the anchors for WH3 and I think it's the option which poses the least amount of risk for a potential backlash.
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4 · Disagree AgreeBut dont expect them in Game three ...its almost sad every discussion about game three ends up with Cathay...I guess there is demand, but not much common sense...
And a lot of nostalgic Shogun fans in need for their asian fix ...
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeI think CA can do it well
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeYou would have space for Hobgoblins, Marauder Tribes, Warriors of Chaos (updated to be finally complete) updated Chaos Warrior Mechanics (again, they are unfinished) and a more natural inclusion of Chaos Daemons.
It would also tie in the combined map better, give even more territory for the mini-game map, and isnt being shoehorned in like the far east would be.
Just take this one, and add more Wastes/Steppes to the top.
And before someone say's the Darklands are empty....
and
and hmm what have we here...Nagashizzar, seems important.
There is more than enough content for Game 3, Far East is nothing but wishful thinking.
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1 · Disagree AgreeIt fleshed out the map quite well with all the existing races (except the then unrevealed Vampire Coast) from lore information gathered throughout the Warhammer armybooks and supplements, without even having to resort to going east of the Mountains of Mourn.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeA few units crossing over is fine, but I dont want to pay for the same army twice.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeYou will pay for game 3, and Empire fit as main enemy of Woc, and need update.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeShe had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeThis is all the GAME 1 and GAME 2 factions that are canonically already present!
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1 · Disagree AgreeIf you own game 1, you shoudl get them for free, if you wont, then you pay for them, simple imho
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
3 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeNote the image I posted from the video is only PRE EXISTING CONTENT. Fill in the rest with Ogres, Hobgoblins, Daemons and Chaos Dwarves and Kislev.
Then add on more to the North.
Then add in Nagash...
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3 · Disagree Agree-If you did Darklands, Ind, Cathay, Nippon, and Khuresh the map would be bigger in new territory than Vortex.
-Cathay, Ind, Khuresh, and Nippon never received official support, official army lists, were never listed in White Dwarfs or other expanded material other than side fluff mentions. Most never even had a single figure produced even to be dumped in a Dogs of War lists which even the highly obscure Amazons and Albion did.
-CA got a lot of negative attention over cut content that was the Warriors of Chaos. They said they wanted a better option and introduced Norsca. They were happy how Norsca turned out on a PR level as stated so. The programing debacle is separate of this. It requires them going back to something they wanted to change and got negative press on to add a game 3 race as preorder.
-The Mountains of Mourn are huge in size and this is often underestimated here.
-Cathay is on the east side of the Mountains of Mourn and Cathay proper even farther.
-The Great Maw is not where the Ogre Kingdoms are. It's a place of pilgrimage not territory of any of the kingdoms. It's also very far east. It might not even make it in the game if they do an all Darklands centric map. But Ogres can't stay there long it's covered in chaos taint and they will eventually mutate.
-The Skytitan lands are the same as the maw. Farther east, and not part of Ogre Kingdoms proper. They're not hospitable and the ogres that remained are are mutated by chaos taint to the point they're not considered Ogres anymore.
-There is a giant inhospitable portion of terrain between the Ogre Kindgoms and Cathay.
-The Kingdom of Ind is closer to all this than Cathay. It's right south of the Ogre Kingdoms Proper and actually borders the Darklands in the south east.
So now some opinions.
Cathay is way overstated as anything. Aside from never having a single figure or army list there is more lore to the Vampire Coast, Norsca, or Araby. And many other minor factions not in game or under represented in game. It's a lot farther from the darklands with nothing inbetween. Ind is closer. There is a billion people in India to that also buy games, you can buy into that just as easily as you can buy into the Chinese market with the appeal and it actually borders the map of Darklands proper. Cathay does not.
If Cathay or any of the far east factions was to come into play they would have to build everything from the ground up. All 4 LL's, all heros, the entire roster of basic to fantastic units. Sure some like the monks have a mention but nothing of what they can do on TT. Noooooothing, or really even outside of TT. The mentions are few to none. They have to build their faction aesthetic even if yes they can borrow heavily from IRL examples but there isnt' even hits how Warhammer takes its own spin on that.
So people trying to compare them to Norsca or Vampire Coast are bonkers. Those had army lists from official sources, they had more lore, they had descriptions, and figures aplenty. Even the borrowed units existed in some resources. Cathay and friends don't have this.
CA has stated multiple times they took a beating for game 1's preorder strategy, that they were happy with Norsca's reception other than the programming issues. So why on earth would they be encouraged to go backwards? Seems more likely to me they'd try to work around the programming issues first.
Darklands from the Spine to Mountains of Mourn, from south ocean to northern wastes is already a very large map area. It can be extended a little further west to let the empire and kislev have representation.
The Empire doesn't need a large representation. Game 2 it has Sudenburg, that's it. If it's not the primary focus they don't really need that. And the Mortal Empire equivalent in game 3 will still be a major selling point. Mortal Empires is thousands of times played more than Vortex when they published the stats. So they're going to care more about the Empire there than on the new scenario in my opinion.
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4 · Disagree AgreeDarklans, Ind, Cathay, Nippon and Khuresh is 350.
Actually, it would be same size as New World, but excluding Southlands.
So adding them would actually be quite smaller than Vortex.
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0 · Disagree AgreeEspecially with your yellow box with is all filled with land that will have actual factions on it and not the large portions of water you highlight.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeThat is worthy of rework update nothing more. I really don't see people even thinking that Empire is gonna be a main faction of game 3. That would mean they would get 4 more LL at least, most likely 15-20 new units not even including the the ones coming with a Lord pack, new campaign mechanics, most likely rites, more ROR and even more Heros and Lords options.
I am sorry but the level of care between Empire and all other factions would be absurd. Not only are you asking people to pay again for a whole faction they already have but that would also be pretty insulting to all other factions. Saying something like the Empire is the most popular is also a bit silly since with plus 20 factions there is bound to be one that is the favorite and one would that is the least but they should all still be treated equally with same level of care. Not to mention most "popular" according to CA graph that I assume most people are going off from was only 24%, so what about the other 76% of players and that was even before game 2 was released so that 24% might be even smaller.
I do want Empire to get their rework and hopefully a new LL and maybe even 1-3 new units but anything beyond that just seems delusional.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeLets say the Empire does make it in again, but this time it comes with a playable Middenland subfaction complete with all the expected Ulrician units, celestial Hurricanum and other missing empire units.
Lets say that we start with.
The Empire
Deamons of Chaos
Chaos Dwarfs
Ogre Kingdoms How about:
Kislev
Slannesh vs. Khorne
Nurgle vs. Tzeentch
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0 · Disagree AgreeInd, Nippon, and Khuresh are definitely lore-starved, but lumping Cathay with them is disingenuous.
Araby - https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/216388/ultimate-araby-unit-list-the-canon-edition#latest
Estalia - https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219062/ultimate-estalia-unit-list-the-canon-edition#latest
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1 · Disagree AgreeBut that is a far cry to compare them to even Vampire Coast which had a statted roster and Harkon actually having a backstory and goals.
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1 · Disagree AgreeCathay may have about half a list's worth of units that have been described and no rules. Nippon, Ind, and Khuresh have next to nothing.
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2 · Disagree Agree