An Alternative Solution to the Monogod Debate

Wyvax#7456

Hello all, I was originally going to post this in another thread, but I feel that the idea is worth its own discussion.

I've been against implementing dedicated monogod rosters ever since I've heard of the proposition, however I'm not opposed to playing god themed Hordes of Chaos in the campaign or custom. Sounds contradictory? Well let me explain.

First why I don't like the idea of monogods as paid DLC rosters or Sigmar forbid, the core of game three. If we were to get monogods then we had better get everything included in their rosters available for use in WoC, DoC and BM respectively, including legendary lords like Vilitch the Curseling, Tamurkhan and the Masque of Slaanesh etc. It's one thing to use FW units and obscure characters for the spin-off rosters like Norsca or Vampirates, but if we get say a Khorne faction including Skullcrushers, Slaughterbrutes, Chaos Ogres, Khorngors, Doombulls led by Valkia the Bloody, Taurox the Brass Bull and Uz'hul Skulltaker, then we'd definitely better get all those units available for the WoC, BM and the option to lead the regular WoC, BM and DoC factions as said LLs. In other words monogod rosters would either be redundant mishmashes of the other Chaos armybooks at best and composed of units and characters that were stolen from and rightfully belong to the other Chaos factions at worst. Not ideal.

That said the option to play a Nurgle horde of marked Warriors, Chosen, Bile Trolls, Pestigors, Talleymen, Plague Toads and Jabberslythes among others is certainly a very tempting and fun notion. Hordes of Chaos is cool, no doubt about it. And we're all sympathetic to wanting more lords and units in this game, (which is ultimately what the monogod mania boils down to if we're honest).

So I propose a solution. 1) Update BM and WoC for game three with missing units and a few more lords. 2) Implement a new mechanic for all core Chaos races similar to Norsca's mechanic but with more... drastic effects. (More on that below). 3) Include a large DLC, or several smaller ones, that includes further lords, heroes and units for the three Chaos races; basically LPs but each devoted to an individual god. This step is purely for more content.

So, onto the mechanic I mentioned. This mechanic would be the option to 'convert' from traditional BM/WoC/DoC to say "Brayherd of Khorne"/ "Legions of Khorne"/ "Host of Khorne". So as the campaign goes, you start as vanilla undivided but have the option of going full monogod, gaining some unique units from the other two races at the expense of other god-themed units already in your roster as well as themed buffs to your more generic units (gors, marauders, furies).

So for quick example, playing as Sigvald (this is assuming that he gets his own faction separate from Archaon, which he should anyway), somewhere down the line you get the option to go full Slaanesh, whereupon you lose access to the Lores of Nurgle and Tzeentch, Chaos Spawn, Forsaken, Skullcrushers, Bile Trolls, Mutalith Vortex Beasts etc. but gain access to Slaaneshi daemons, Slaangors and the mark of Slaanesh buff to all your units. Further, you can no longer confederate with say Kholek but now can with N'Kari if he's gone the same route.

Unlike Norsca which can go any way, most of the Daemons, Warriors of Chaos and BM only have the choice to go either undivided or monogod. Archaon is the exception to this as the Everchosen. He should be able upon teaching a certain point (perhaps max level) to play as Hordes of Chaos undivided; of course this would need to be very well tested to prevent it from being OP. (Kholek can stay as his secondary Lord.) Be'lakor too should get this ability, knowing his history as the first everchosen and his goals. As for the Beastmen, I suppose that Khazrak the One-Eye and Malagor the Dark Omen could to, being the quintessential beastlord and Bray-shaman respectively and not really fitting any monogod theme; returning the favor of the gods to the rightful children of Chaos would be fitting for them. As for BM options for the monogod paths it's less cut and dry, but I figure Taurox the Brass Bull for Khorne, Morghur the Shadowgave for Tzeentch, Ghorros Warhoof for Slaanesh and Molohk Slugtongue the "Famine-Fiend" for Nurgle is a good a good match.

So any thoughts, opinions, criticism so long as it's constructive? I realize that this doesn't allow you to start as a monogod roster, but I feel that going from vanilla of a race to monogod is a bit more practical and would be a fun campaign, sorta like the Marian reforms in Rome or going from Pagan to Christian as Lithuania in Medieval 2's Teutonic campaign.

vie_dragon#5983

Everybody wants what you are proposing because every Chaos faction having the option to dedicate themselves to 1 god is the best solution for every faction.

Guess why it will never happen.
It would actually require effort, new models and looots of Charlemagnes.

Edit: In hindsight, this is kind of unfair because after thinking it through it actually sounds expensive as hell to create especially because 3 factions wont generate new revenue. So yeah, its just too expensive.

Draxynnic#3149

I'd been thinking on this myself. Know how I'd probably do it if I was in charge?

WoC rework for Game 3, possibly as a preorder or post-release race pack.

Sigvald gets his own faction, and is able to recruit Slaanesh demons Archaon-style, and some of his units get a buff to represent the Mark of Slaanesh. In compensation, WoC units linked to other gods get increased upkeep (sure, he can get himself a unit of Skullcrushers, but it'll be expensive).

Mortal lords linked to Tzeentch, Khorne and Nurgle (probably those in the 8E army book, but I wouldn't be opposed to using older ones instead) receive similar benefits.

To get around the 'DLC for DLC' issue, the two are standalone. Having the existing WoC pack gives you Archaon, Kholek, and Sigvald. The new pack (or just having TWW3) gives you the new lords. Either allows you to play Warriors of Chaos without the other, having both just gives you more LL options.

Ol_Nessie#9894

Very interesting idea. I think it'd be a good fit but it sounds like it'd take quite a bit of effort on CA's part to make the mechanics work.

I think an overhauled WoC, divided into god subfactions as one of the 4 core races of WH3 might be more practical though. This would obviously require some mitigating factors such as a discount for WoC owners or perhaps a 5th race as part of the base game. So not only could they get shiny new units in the transition to game 3, they'd also be eligible for DLC and FLC support which could add in all the missing lords and units.

OdTengri#8235

ben8vtedu said:

I think an overhauled WoC, divided into god subfactions as one of the 4 core races of WH3 might be more practical though.

Most people, even the ones who do want Monogods don't want Monos as Core TWWH3 Factions.

Daemons of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Chaos Dwarfs
Kislev -OR- Cathay -OR- Dogs of War

Is the most desired line up.

TheShiroOfDalton

OdTengri said:

ben8vtedu said:

I think an overhauled WoC, divided into god subfactions as one of the 4 core races of WH3 might be more practical though.

Most people, even the ones who do want Monogods don't want Monos as Core TWWH3 Factions.

Daemons of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Chaos Dwarfs
Kislev -OR- Cathay -OR- Dogs of War

Is the most desired line up.

Two DoC factions at launch, dedicated to Tzeentch and Slaneesh, then Khorne and Nurgle as LP.

Easy as pie.

Warlocke

Oh, his post was deleted, never mind.

Ol_Nessie#9894

OdTengri said:

ben8vtedu said:

I think an overhauled WoC, divided into god subfactions as one of the 4 core races of WH3 might be more practical though.

Most people, even the ones who do want Monogods don't want Monos as Core TWWH3 Factions.

Daemons of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Chaos Dwarfs
Kislev -OR- Cathay -OR- Dogs of War

Is the most desired line up.

What I'm proposing is something more along the lines of this:

MakoTheMako

DoC are their own distinct thing.

Monogods can be a thing but they don't take the place of DoC. DoC are an actual armybook and take precedence over a hybrid roster.

You need to have full and separate roster before you can have the hybrid roster. I really really wish yall would stop acting like monogods are a replacement for Daemons. Theyre not, please don't try and remove my most looked-forward-to faction from the game.

brago90#3911

There are many ways to bring chaos to TW: Warhammer 3.

There are certain issues such as the warriors of chaos will collect units of all the gods but will be demonic beasts not intelligent creatures and will have among the lords where we will see characters really linked to a god of chaos. This is what the warriors of chaos have always been. Worshipers of chaos that come together for a great invasion along with beasts and monsters from the realms of chaos.

In the case of beastmen only have the marked gors that could or not add them to the game so their links to gods of the specific chaos are very minor.

The complicated thing is with the daemons of chaos because they are a lot of visually very different creatures because it is roughly an army of monsters in which any unit is radically different from the rest. Here we have many problems:

1. Lore. In the lore, the gods usually hate each other and at best tolerate each other while looking backstab at the other three.

2. Competitive balance. Each god works radically different from the other three and this is shown in their units so once we go to the multiplayer have too many options and all of them work very well.

3. Production cost. Bringing them to the game and doing it right is going to be absurdly expensive.

4. Army book. In TT the daemons of chaos were a single army but in the age of sigmar and 40,000 are separated.


So in essence everything is translated into a single issue. How do you create daemons of chaos? Do you keep them together with all the problems that brings or you separate them and **** off the players who hate chaos?

If you separate them, you reduce the costs between four factions and facilitate their competitive balancing, in addition to allowing fragmenting the chaos causing the existence of chaos to fit better in the campaign.

Which is better decision? that can only be decided by CA for good or for bad.

MakoTheMako

The reasons Daemons of Chaos come in Armys together in Fantasy is BECAUSE they hate eachother, no god is willing to be left out of an opportunity to invade the world, nor let any of the others get a leg up in the great game, and so whenever a rift strong enough to allow an invasion forms, all kinds of daemons come together to invade.

Also I LOVE Chaos and separating the Daemons would **** me off. Keep them together how theyre supposed to be, and then roll out hybrid Warriors/Daemons/Beastmen hybrid factions later on, separate from DoC.

TheShiroOfDalton

MakoTheMako said:

The reasons Daemons of Chaos come in Armys together in Fantasy is BECAUSE they hate eachother, no god is willing to be left out of an opportunity to invade the world, nor let any of the others get a leg up in the great game, and so whenever a rift strong enough to allow an invasion forms, all kinds of daemons come together to invade.

Also I LOVE Chaos and separating the Daemons would **** me off. Keep them together how theyre supposed to be, and then roll out hybrid Warriors/Daemons/Beastmen hybrid factions later on, separate from DoC.

If you leave out the Great Game you don't need to bother with DoC at all.

MakoTheMako

Ephraim_Dalton said:

MakoTheMako said:

The reasons Daemons of Chaos come in Armys together in Fantasy is BECAUSE they hate eachother, no god is willing to be left out of an opportunity to invade the world, nor let any of the others get a leg up in the great game, and so whenever a rift strong enough to allow an invasion forms, all kinds of daemons come together to invade.

Also I LOVE Chaos and separating the Daemons would **** me off. Keep them together how theyre supposed to be, and then roll out hybrid Warriors/Daemons/Beastmen hybrid factions later on, separate from DoC.

If you leave out the Great Game you don't need to bother with DoC at all.

Where did I say you have to leave out the great game? There will no doubt be events and mechanics to maintain the balance or dedicate one way or the other, with buffs and debuffs and locking out certain things. But this is all done with faction mechanics, not directly cutting and stuffing the base roster.

Daemons of Chaos are the armybook/race/roster, whereas different factions OF the DoC can have monogod dedication and get a handful of WoC/Beastmen units like High Elf Isha Lady.

But better than that would be to simply keep the hybrid stuff to a completely separate roster/race as the Hordes/Legions of (God Name Here)

Draxynnic#3149

brago90 said:

4. Army book. In TT the daemons of chaos were a single army but in the age of sigmar and 40,000 are separated.

Age of Sigmar isn't really a good precedent here because AoS still has a single 'Grand Alliance: Chaos' army of which the individual books are subfactions. There are some incentives to keeping an army within a single subfaction, but creating an 8E DoC-style army is still very much within the rules in AoS.

I haven't been paying much attention to later editions of 40K, but I suspect the same is true there. Certainly, until 40K switched over to AoS-like mechanics, the demons list there was an undivided Demons list just like 8E WFB.

Wyvax#7456

ben8vtedu said:

Very interesting idea. I think it'd be a good fit but it sounds like it'd take quite a bit of effort on CA's part to make the mechanics work.

I think an overhauled WoC, divided into god subfactions as one of the 4 core races of WH3 might be more practical though. This would obviously require some mitigating factors such as a discount for WoC owners or perhaps a 5th race as part of the base game. So not only could they get shiny new units in the transition to game 3, they'd also be eligible for DLC and FLC support which could add in all the missing lords and units.

Yep, that's the main hurdle with this idea: cost. That said I'm fairly certain that if they were a little more liberal with their DLCs they'd be able to do it. VP sitting at the number one sale spot on Steam right now is proof that the players will buy their stuff is it's well made. If they wanted to create a Nurgle themed DLC, Lords and unit pack, that added say, Epidemious, Festus the Leechlord, Molohk Slugtongue, Bile Trolls, Plague Toads, Pestigors and sure why not Putrid Blightkings if they want to swing that way. People would buy it. Basically I'd like to see more of a modular DLC practice, if only to add in what's missing.

LordSolarMach#5538

Wyvax said:

It's one thing to use FW units and obscure characters for the spin-off rosters like Norsca or Vampirates, but if we get say a Khorne faction including Skullcrushers, Slaughterbrutes, Chaos Ogres, Khorngors, Doombulls led by Valkia the Bloody, Taurox the Brass Bull and Uz'hul Skulltaker, then we'd definitely better get all those units available for the WoC, BM and the option to lead the regular WoC, BM and DoC factions as said LLs.

Wulfrik and Throgg are from the WoC book, same as Valkia. If they can lead Norscan armies, I don't see the problem with letting Valkia lead a vertically integrated Khornate army. I also think, realistically, mono-god DLCs are the only way we'll get a lot of those lords added to the game.

But! You do have a very cool alternative.

Also, because this recently occurred to me, and it's not worthy of being it's own thread:

Khorne - Gryffindor
Slaanesh - Slytherin
Tzeentch - Ravenclaw
Nurgle - Hufflepuff

Wyvax#7456

LordSolarMach said:

Wyvax said:

It's one thing to use FW units and obscure characters for the spin-off rosters like Norsca or Vampirates, but if we get say a Khorne faction including Skullcrushers, Slaughterbrutes, Chaos Ogres, Khorngors, Doombulls led by Valkia the Bloody, Taurox the Brass Bull and Uz'hul Skulltaker, then we'd definitely better get all those units available for the WoC, BM and the option to lead the regular WoC, BM and DoC factions as said LLs.

Wulfrik and Throgg are from the WoC book, same as Valkia. If they can lead Norscan armies, I don't see the problem with letting Valkia lead a vertically integrated Khornate army. I also think, realistically, mono-god DLCs are the only way we'll get a lot of those lords added to the game.

But! You do have a very cool alternative.

Also, because this recently occurred to me, and it's not worthy of being it's own thread:

Khorne - Gryffindor
Slaanesh - Slytherin
Tzeentch - Ravenclaw
Nurgle - Hufflepuff

Not a Harry Potter fan, but that's certainly an interesting way to look about it!

Yeah I figured that Wulfrik and Throgg would be brought up, considering that they're from the armybook. I'm okay with it given how there's a good dozen or so characters worth implementing to the WoC before them, but they work phenomenally well for the Norscan culture.

I'd just like the option to lead WoC proper as Valkia.

OdTengri#8235

ben8vtedu said:

OdTengri said:

ben8vtedu said:

I think an overhauled WoC, divided into god subfactions as one of the 4 core races of WH3 might be more practical though.

Most people, even the ones who do want Monogods don't want Monos as Core TWWH3 Factions.

Daemons of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Chaos Dwarfs
Kislev -OR- Cathay -OR- Dogs of War

Is the most desired line up.

What I'm proposing is something more along the lines of this:

I could see something like that, a MUCH improved Warriors of Chaos could be a starting faction.

I'd much prefer Kislev as a starting faction and Mono's as DLC because that makes it easier for Beastmen to get in on the action but I see strength in your ideas.

TheShiroOfDalton

MakoTheMako said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

MakoTheMako said:

The reasons Daemons of Chaos come in Armys together in Fantasy is BECAUSE they hate eachother, no god is willing to be left out of an opportunity to invade the world, nor let any of the others get a leg up in the great game, and so whenever a rift strong enough to allow an invasion forms, all kinds of daemons come together to invade.

Also I LOVE Chaos and separating the Daemons would **** me off. Keep them together how theyre supposed to be, and then roll out hybrid Warriors/Daemons/Beastmen hybrid factions later on, separate from DoC.

If you leave out the Great Game you don't need to bother with DoC at all.

Where did I say you have to leave out the great game? There will no doubt be events and mechanics to maintain the balance or dedicate one way or the other, with buffs and debuffs and locking out certain things. But this is all done with faction mechanics, not directly cutting and stuffing the base roster.

Daemons of Chaos are the armybook/race/roster, whereas different factions OF the DoC can have monogod dedication and get a handful of WoC/Beastmen units like High Elf Isha Lady.

But better than that would be to simply keep the hybrid stuff to a completely separate roster/race as the Hordes/Legions of (God Name Here)

You want to only allow Chaos Undivided. That means no Great Game. No Great Game, no DoC. Without it there's no point to them and you might as well just make them auxiliaries to the WoC again.

Razmirth#5806

Well here’s my two cents...

So thus far, CA has included most factions but have also gone out of their way to create sub factions. And they’ve also created factions that never had much to go off of, like vampire coast. They’ve also included vampire bloodlines, which is the VC equivilent to WOC monogods.

We also know they are not shy of creating new material. Vampire coast was a bit of a gamble that’s paid off immensely. No one really saw it coming, as vamp coast was more of a bucket list for some people that they figured would never actually happen. I certainly had zero interest in vampire coast, but when I saw the love and hard work put into the new DLC, I couldn’t help but admire and get excited for it.

So I think people are underestimating CA’s drive to make the game as lore accurate as possible by including as many factions as possible. If anything has been proved till this point, it’s that the TWW community will purchase pretty much every DLC just out of principle of having said DLC. And to also flesh out the game as much as possible.

I’d completely be down for monogod armies. Tzeentch is a personal favourite of mine, and there is plenty of lore and models in the chaos roster to support. Really all monogod armies are is a skin for existing WoC, and some unique rules for each army. It’s not as unreachable as some think.

So I say do it! Monogod the game in TWW3 and flesh out the fantasy universe even more!

Tayvar

If Chaos would not be the focus of Base Game 3, then the Warriors of Chaos and the Beastmen are not likely to get much of a update, and therefore I don't see it as a real alternative.

Draxynnic#3149

Razmirth said:

Well here’s my two cents...

So thus far, CA has included most factions but have also gone out of their way to create sub factions. And they’ve also created factions that never had much to go off of, like vampire coast. They’ve also included vampire bloodlines, which is the VC equivalent to WOC monogods.

There's an interesting analogue to be made here. A few people had certainly asked for bloodlines to be represented by new races, but CA found a way to do it without even technically adding new LLs, let alone new races.

Granted, there's more distinctions between the Chaos Gods than between vampire bloodlines, but it does show that there are ways to represent this beyond creating new races.

Norsca, for instance, provides a prototype for a divine (or profane?) favour mechanic. This could potentially be expanded as part of a WoC rework, granting the player increasing rewards from the gods (including access to demons) based on their allegiance to each god. Like Norsca, most things that increase your favour with one god would decrease the favour of their rivals, but certain accomplishments might provide favour with all or reduce any losses of favour with a particular god, allowing the player to work towards Everchosen status.

For balance purposes, there probably shouldn't be a full Everchosen army with access to everything in quick battles, but it wouldn't be the first thing that's available in campaign but not in multiplayer quick battles.

Tayvar

OdTengri said:

ben8vtedu said:

I think an overhauled WoC, divided into god subfactions as one of the 4 core races of WH3 might be more practical though.

Most people, even the ones who do want Monogods don't want Monos as Core TWWH3 Factions.

Daemons of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Chaos Dwarfs
Kislev -OR- Cathay -OR- Dogs of War

Is the most desired line up.

Cathay over Monogods? I don't think so, and the Chaos Dwarfs could be added with a DLC.