Suggestion to help the Lizardmen with the new changes to Rampage and Coldblooded

Nielspeterdejong

So for those who haven't heard it yet, Coldblooded no longer heals and only removes Rampage and gives Leadership. While Cold One Riders have all gotten Rampage.

I know they will get a rework in the next Lord pack, but in the mean time I would like to propose the following trait to the Lizardmen:

1) Give all Saurus, Cold One units (Feral and Riders), Kroxigor and Carnosaurs a special version of "The Hunger". This Version allows them to heal in combat while Rampaging (meaning that for it to proc they need to be both in combat as well as Rampaging). As the Carnivorous monsters lose all restraint and feast upon their hated foes.

This way enemies can still take advantage of Rampage, as ranged attacks can stil rampage them and wear them down (they have to be in combat to proc the healing). And players don't have to feel compelled to use Rampage every time it is up, and could instead save it for those units that need to get out of dangerous situations or move somewhere else. This could be further motivated by changing Cold Blooded in the following way:

2) Allow Cold Blooded to also improve the Vigor of the targeted unit and improve its Speed as well. The Lizardmen are a mostly melee army, and once you properly micro a Hero and use Coldblooded on an ally, I feel that he should be rewarded by making disengaging from dangerous situations easier. The Vigor and Speed boost will allow you to disengage, and re-engage more easily.

This way players will have more strategic options, as Rampage also grants those Carnivorous units a boon for granding. Meaning that players will now be more motivated to preserve their Cold Blooded charges for strategic moments. Especially since most of their army now rampages. Thoughts?

Stephince#6150

Has anyone seen the cooldown on the new coldblooded?

Nielspeterdejong

Stephince said:

Has anyone seen the cooldown on the new coldblooded?

What I saw from the streams it was a 60 seconds cooldown, without a maximum number of uses. Which, say you bring 2 heroes, is still a bit long. Hence my suggestion to give a grinding boon to Rampage for those units, allowing the rampage to be less punishing in tactical battles.

Tennisgolfboll#5877

Make rampage happen at 25% hp left.

Whatacruelchoice

Theres really no reason for lizardmen to have healing from cold blooded or rampage or any non-magical source. Cold blooded was always about discipline what has it got to do with healing? Good change, never should have had it in the first place, undead traits belong on undead factions.

SlipknotMaggot#1886

Whatacruelchoice said:

Theres really no reason for lizardmen to have healing from cold blooded or rampage or any non-magical source. Cold blooded was always about discipline what has it got to do with healing? Good change, never should have had it in the first place, undead traits belong on undead factions.

rampage does not fit LM at all. It shuld be a debuff only on feral units.
Makes no sense for saurus and controlled dinosaurs.
I agree the healing wasn´t very fitting, too.
Leave everything like it is in new patch (no healing but stopping rampage) and give rampage only to feral units.

dreagon#2903

The best way to help with rampage is removing it. At least from anything not feral.

ASyrian#2378

Cold blooded should be a moral boost or a moral "heal" over time .
And call me in for the cancelling of rampage

Nielspeterdejong

Whatacruelchoice said:

Theres really no reason for lizardmen to have healing from cold blooded or rampage or any non-magical source. Cold blooded was always about discipline what has it got to do with healing? Good change, never should have had it in the first place, undead traits belong on undead factions.

This isn't TableTop anymore, and the Lizardmen did not have Rampage there either. The Rampage is a new mechanic, as was the healing from Coldblooded. With new rules it makes more sense to have traits which are balanced around the new rules. Hence why I propose allowing Rampage to work like this, but allow it also to heal so that you can make more strategic choices with your charges. The Hunger for example won't help them against enemy Halberd Pincer moves, hence why the speed and Vigor boost on Cold Blooded will be important as well.

uriak

I feel rampage has a severity that changes a lot from unit to unit. From my limited experience, rampaging saurus infantry is not a big deal, they keep doing what are they meant to do and they good enough stats. Disengaging infantry is always risky anyway. On cavalry it's a unit killer.

But the issue is - and I think CA ought to maybe explain their point of view - why it applly to common LM units in general. I feel they wanted to display the animalistic part of them (they are weird like that, supposed to be almost "robots" while being actually savage beasts with a purpose ) and more importantly how to balance saurus, because LM roster is completely lopsided. Saurus are supposed to be a core choice but absolutely smither most low level units. At the same time there is almost nothing above them, bar the temple guards.

You end up in campaign with infantry that should be really T3 right away and maybe rampaging was seen a solution to give them stats worhty of saurus (HP and WS) while adding a negative trait.

Finally, I wouldn't enshrine the precise TT rules. They were meant to flavor factions but a lot of them don't translate to TW. Typically, death blow, or the predatory instinct rules. And if they wanted, frankly the frenzied units ought to be more logical candidates for something that hinders your control of them.

epic_159739058086TgDZIKd

I like hunger suggestion for rampage, it fits lizardmen really well as they eat their enemies. But other races like dark elves have rampage too and witch elves make their enemies rampage. Do you really want to buff your enemies with witch elves to make them heal? I guess not. And it would be really weird if some empire swordsmen would suddenly begin to feast with their enemies flesh. I support this hunger thing but other units like witch elves would need to be changed.

I don't like this new cold blooded though. Vigour and speed have nothing to do with cold blooded.

JDog91

The thing with lizardmen is that they perform incredibly well in campaign with research and army buffs, I'd argue even more so than other races. saurus go from stomping early-game low tier units to easily going head-to-head with the highest tier troops, even more so with the blessed variations. This is kind of how lizardmen are, they are very powerful and the rampage kind of works, even though I hate it, in the campaign as it DOES offset the statline with a small downside. I say small because in campaign, rampage just doesn't matter - They're gonna massacre stuff that they rampage into. I've had saurus go toe to toe with swordmasters and executioners easily matching them and if they start to lose, it's always easy to reinforce and make sure there's a win.

In multiplayer the entire powerhouse flavour never seems to surface well and rampage is nothing but a detriment that can be used by your opponent. In campaign a carnosaur rampaging isn't a big deal, in multiplayer it's a death sentence. Gradual nerfs due to the heal effects did nothing for them and now that the heal is gone, units like carnosaurs will still be a no show. Kroq-gar is a struggling lord in mp, and his famous and rightfully legendary mount does nothing but make him a big target that gets pounded hard. Bastilodons with rev crystals were too much alongside cold blood heals, and yet nothing was done to make the rev crystal more viable even with the cold blooded change.

With the next pack likely being lm/skaven, I hope to see a total rethink of the race for the competitive multiplayer scene. Lizardmen were a force to be reckoned with on TT with infantry matching some of the strongest available and certainly no downside as huge as troops running straight into their designated counter, which is far more impactful in a REAL TIME strategy than it ever could have been in a turn based game like TT.

The problem is that I don't even know what to suggest - If the units were too strong, rampage would just end up like campaign where it just doesn't matter as powerful troops cut a swathe through a frontline without any need to even control them. This is the major flaw of the rampage mechanic, it removes gameplay and therefore strategy, while being an overly large nerf to the baseline stats of the units. Saurus aren't bad by any stretch, but an opposing player knows the counter. Temple Guard are far from what I remember in TT as a dedicated anti-large unit, where in TT they could go toe-to-toe with chosen.

I'm at a loss and hope people can come up with an idea of a way the faction could go with this patch. If they begin to perform better, then maybe no change is needed. Maybe the cold blooded change will actually help the faction far more than the heal, but this doesn't change the fact that many previous nerfs were put in place BECAUSE of the accompanying heals of lords and heroes.

Nielspeterdejong

Heijander said:

I like hunger suggestion for rampage, it fits lizardmen really well as they eat their enemies. But other races like dark elves have rampage too and witch elves make their enemies rampage. Do you really want to buff your enemies with witch elves to make them heal? I guess not. And it would be really weird if some empire swordsmen would suddenly begin to feast with their enemies flesh. I support this hunger thing but other units like witch elves would need to be changed.

I don't like this new cold blooded though. Vigour and speed have nothing to do with cold blooded.

I meant that only those specific Lizardmen units have that trait, so not the Dark Elves nor the Stegadons for example (perhaps only Hunger for the Cold One Dark Elf units)

uriak

I don't want to pose as an adversary, but the reality is wheras the TT was a game based around competing (more or less seriously) with an opponent, TW is much wider package and it's quite difficult to actually create intensity in single player and fairness in MP.

This is about rampage, but it could be said about spellcasting, or the famous foot lords vs mounts. I must confess I'm a bit worried that real MP grievance would ultimately only converge to a narrow set of specific things you want in your units. People want foot lords that can't be abused by mounts, more AP, reliable units etc, because this is the kind of things that works in MP.

At the same time, people seem really, really adverse to any detrimental trait to their units (hey remember HE reactions to their racial trait, it was even a buff actually but perceived as something that led to self destruction) whereas the TT was really, but really really filled with hazardous rules. Exploding units, exploding and army harming, units, units going berserk, units infighting, spell randomly missing, chaos gods angrily punishing their champions etc. And it's understandble, people competing are not fond of any thing that is not under control.

But is this how this specific game should be about? I know it's very theoritical since the game is still very single player centric, but competitive design can absolutely suck the life out of a colorful license, as DoW3 demonstrated.

I feel you don't know what to suggest because something that would work in competitive MP can't have such a difficult to balance factor, really, not on so many units. Truth is the LM TT rules made sense in a very different context of unit restriction, regimental rules with detailled variations (egg including kroxigor behind a screen of skinks) Their translation to the TW game has been arbitrary, and perhaps the result of CA wanting to show they poured more love to new factions (neither Empire/Dwarfs/GS units had any specific racial traits at release)

I don't really know what to suggest either, because the healthier choice will be ultimately to almost split MP and single player and CA is not going to do that, and saying "MP can be left out in imperfect state" is callous, while it's true MP is not the game seller. In the case of rampage, adjusting costs won't be enough.

Nielspeterdejong

uriak said:

I don't want to pose as an adversary, but the reality is wheras the TT was a game based around competing (more or less seriously) with an opponent, TW is much wider package and it's quite difficult to actually create intensity in single player and fairness in MP.

This is about rampage, but it could be said about spellcasting, or the famous foot lords vs mounts. I must confess I'm a bit worried that real MP grievance would ultimately only converge to a narrow set of specific things you want in your units. People want foot lords that can't be abused by mounts, more AP, reliable units etc, because this is the kind of things that works in MP.

At the same time, people seem really, really adverse to any detrimental trait to their units (hey remember HE reactions to their racial trait, it was even a buff actually but perceived as something that led to self destruction) whereas the TT was really, but really really filled with hazardous rules. Exploding units, exploding and army harming, units, units going berserk, units infighting, spell randomly missing, chaos gods angrily punishing their champions etc. And it's understandble, people competing are not fond of any thing that is not under control.

But is this how this specific game should be about? I know it's very theoritical since the game is still very single player centric, but competitive design can absolutely suck the life out of a colorful license, as DoW3 demonstrated.

I feel you don't know what to suggest because something that would work in competitive MP can't have such a difficult to balance factor, really, not on so many units. Truth is the LM TT rules made sense in a very different context of unit restriction, regimental rules with detailled variations (egg including kroxigor behind a screen of skinks) Their translation to the TW game has been arbitrary, and perhaps the result of CA wanting to show they poured more love to new factions (neither Empire/Dwarfs/GS units had any specific racial traits at release)

I don't really know what to suggest either, because the healthier choice will be ultimately to almost split MP and single player and CA is not going to do that, and saying "MP can be left out in imperfect state" is callous, while it's true MP is not the game seller. In the case of rampage, adjusting costs won't be enough.

Well seeing as this is Total War now and not Tabletop anymore, I think the TT should just be used as guidelines.

Right now the Lizardmen infantry crumbles, and Rampage is a serious hinder with Coldblooded now only being a way to make it less of a hinderance.

For competetive play, it seems very fair to me that they could gain some love. Hence my suggestion to allow the Carnivorous Lizardmen units gain the Hunger effect (replenishment of hit points) while both Rampaging as well as being in Combat. This way it will still be a hinderance, but it won't be as dooming anymore. Plus the Lizardmen will become more grindy again as they were meant to be.

Arthas_Menethil#3421

Well if they are turning the Predatory fighter rule into rampage on %health lost they could at least add the part where nearby characters could stop it or try to. (Cold blooded is its own separate rule to do with leadership)

Whenever a model with this special rule rolls a 6 To Hit
in close combat, it immediately makes another Attack; roll
To Hit and To Wound as normal. Attacks generated by
the Predatory Fighter special rule do not generate further
Attacks. In addition, a unit that contains one or more models
with this special rule can only test to restrain pursuit if there
is at least one Skink character model (Skink Chief or Skink
Priest, including Tehenhauin, Tetto’eko and Tiktaq’to) within
6" of the unit.

It just seems like another case of implementation went wrong and it now affects the race or type like Savage Dominion did for summons. (SD was changed from the source in which it removed all negatives and changed the melee monster options for a ranged one. It's at least I think Savage dominion is the cause for the summons degeneration it's that or Morghur and his four chaos spawn summons)

SlipknotMaggot#1886

Or just remove Rampage for everyone except feral units (loreful) and make saurus T3 in single Player.
would fix all Problems. And maybe would even enhance LM single player early game as it is too easy right now with full stack of saurusses. You would have to use those skinks, feral cold ones and maybe ur 3 starting units to survive early game.

Nielspeterdejong

Honestly, it seems like they wanted to have a varient on the TT trait which made some Lizardmen units chase, which was countered by Skink Heroes.

I think they can still go in that direction, but they will need to:

A ) Lower the Cooldown on Rampage to 45 seconds, and let it give the target a boost to Vigor and Speed as well

B ) Give Saurus Warriors, Kroxigor, Carnosaurs, and all Cold One units a special "Predatory Fighters" trait which heals them as long as they are in Melee and are Rampaging (so all the more predatory units, not all Lizardmen units as Feral Stegadons and Bastiladons can hold their own).

The saving grace of the Lizardmen was Cold Blooded which allowed for some extra healing on their Lords. With that gone, they will need to gain their strength from somewhere else. Adding Healing to these 4 types of units, as long as they are both in Melee and Rampaging, would be a good replacement of Predatory Fighters which gave them more attacks at the cost of chasing enemy units (unless a Skink Hero was nearby).

This way your Saurus will endure a bit better, and you can then save up your Cold Blooded charges to pull rampaging units out of harms way. And Skink Heroes will become viable in competetive plays due to their low cost or mobility. Thus giving more power to your Saurus and Kroxigor, in exchange for no longer having healing on Cold Blooded.

Bogdanov89#9316

rampage needs to happen not before 20% of max health remaining (currently its at 50% or in some cases completely random).

Once a unit rampages it should have increased combat capabilities (hit harder, move faster etc...) as an upside to completely losing control of that unit.

Even with the new Cold Blooded the rampage mechanic is an awful boring anti fun sh*t that takes control away from the player and makes LM borderline unviable in competitive MP battles.

Nielspeterdejong

I agree with the second one, however giving them more damage might give trouble with balancing. Hence my suggestion to give them Hit Point Replenishment, but only if they are both into Combat as well as Rampaging.

This way Rampage will have more flavor, and you can more strategically choose whom to boost. Heck, you can even use it on allies that aren't rampaging, for a boost to Vigor and Speed (while lowering the Leadership boon to 16).

uriak

I think for the sake of simplicity rampage should stay as a pure negative trait.

One possibility is making it trigger based on remaining leadership, not health. because the player has more control on Ld.
Another is triggering only in melee for a start, even more prolonged melee, berserk style. Have the unit rampage if under X leadership/health AND being in melee for a set time.

Honestly, even as I stated rampage was "impressive" in SP, maybe making it apply to most units is wrong. For feral dinosaurs it's clearly a penaly on getting such strong units at early stages of the game. For cold one riders it's too much

As for Saurus, maybe make the shielded variants T3 ? I dunno. Skinks are useful in a context of limited income which is important in early Mazda campaigns, but are ridiculous with Krok-Gar. (the same way Wurrzag savage orcs are ridiculous in campaign)

Or maybe make the cold blooded skill and Aoe centered on characters that could get back control of whol swaths of the front line.

Nielspeterdejong

Well originally predatory fighter was both a boon and a blessing. It gave you more attacks, but also made your units follow routing units and ending up isolated. Hence why my proposal was to make Rampage both a boon as a bane. On one hand you'd like them to give in and heal themselves while both in combat and Rampaging. However, on the other hand you want them to stop chasing enemy units, hence why you could use your heroes for that.

We could do exactly like the TT, and give them faster attacks. But the Hit Point Replenishment might be more balanced and makes them a bit more tankier. Allowing you to rely on your monsters for the actual punching power. Right now their Infantry is abysmal against other melee focussed factions. And with all the new options to focus fire and anti large, it would feel like a fair balancing factor for them.

uriak

Shouldn't frenzy works the same then? It could be an outcry, but frenzy forced units to act differently.

steam_165171714789pPAEKOH

An entire discussion in the balance section about rampage - https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/228257/how-to-fix-lizardmen-and-rampage/p1

Whatever the solution, there must be acknowledgement that rampage is a horrible mechanic which is simply not fun. Losing control of units in an RTS is never a good idea, much less should be considered a "mechanic".

The "fix" to cold blooded is barely a stop-gap. The LM lose one of their only positive defining traits, that of inherent healing, in order temporarily cancel one of their many many units suffering from their other defining traits, loss of unit control.

They have only 2 LL's, one of only 2 factions which so few LL's. They have no RoR's, making them officially the least complex faction in the entire game.

Whatever the fix to Cold Blooded and Rampage, they need to be far more drastic than this current patch's moderate tweaking.

If Rampage is going to stay in the game, which is horrible, then adding something like regen during rampage would at least be SOMETHING. The LM were defined by 2 unique things as a faction, rampaging and healing. Now healing is gone and they are only defined by rampaging.

You can hardly claim they are defined by being a monster race when other factions have just as many monsters.

Helhound#7332

The units who gained rampage also received an enormous buff. Saurus got a very minor bump. And all Lizardmen Cav lost some charge impact to become even more brutal in melee. Reinforceing that these guys aren't shock cav but melee cav. This helps when they rampage and get stuck in the fight.

Units with rampage always overperform for their cost. Bastilidons are 800. For a terror causing anti infantry unkillable monstrosity. Saurus warriors are 800. With a solid AP split, even if most of that damage split is basic damage, a metric ton of health per model, and better than average armor. And they never rout. It takes great weapons and a ton of armor to stand up to Saurus Warriors. Cutting the infantry they won't just walk over down to a fraction of the available units for factions.

The only reason these units are allowed to be this way, and the patch notes confirmed this, is that rampage is a considerable debuff. And now you have a way to stop rampage, with unlimited casts, that also nets a 16 lds buff making them stay and fight to the very last man. I **** love lizardmen.

The problem they have is that they usually move quite slow and have little ways of stopping those lynchpin units that will come around and **** over their units. Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard, Chosen, stuff like that. They munch through the mass of Lizardmen. Hopefully with the upcoming dlc they get their Razordons and Salamanders. So that they can frontline some fast moving short range artillery to soften up the bad stuff before the grind.