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Southern Realms and Dogs of War

Canon_fodderCanon_fodder Registered Users Posts: 4
I know everyone is justifiably obsessed with the Vampirates DLC right now, but with the interesting additions to the Mortal Empires map in the form of Albion and Sudenberg, I thought I would share some ideas on how Dogs of War and the southern realms might be implemented. I also recognise that I'm probably not the first person to suggest these ideas, so apologies if you've heard all this before.

The way I see it working, much like the tabletop game, the Dogs of War are a set of units available to multiple factions, each with specific requirements for recruitment, such as holding a province, maintaining public order or forging an alliance. If you meet these conditions, you have access to the unit, most likely with a unit cap of one or two. Each faction has access to different units, with some having access to more units than others (for example, Bretonnia would likely be required to pay a chivalry cost alongside a monetary one, for the dishonourable act of hiring mercenaries, and the obnoxious Marienburg Landship would be much more dishonourable than, say, a unit of the Alcanti Fellowship).

Here is a potential list of DoW units and their respective requirements. (I forgot to add Beastmen, but I imagine they would have access to the same units as Chaos, if any at all)


Here's where the Southern Realms play into it. The Southern Realm factions would be represented by 2-4 new legendary lords, with a mostly shared roster of pikes, crossbows and mobile artillery (see Cataph's excellent southern realms mod for reference). Additionally, the merchant princes of the Southern Realms can recruit DoW units the same way that the other factions can, but with a few key differences;

1. They have potential access to all of the above dogs of war units

2, They have access to an agent called the "Explorer" who, among other things, can roam around the map, and after interacting with a faction or region with a DoW unit, can enable the recruitment of said unit in the "Mercenary Guild" building tree.

The Explorer essentially represents a trade expedition to foreign lands, spreading the word to foreign mercenaries that glory and gold await them if they sell their services to the explorer's patron. This allows the Southern Realms player to build up, not necessarily out, and plays into the idea that a Merchant Prince is more interested in wealth than carving out an empire. It also enables the Southern Realms player to embark on expeditions to find their favourite units to round out their rosters (It may be worth limiting the number of mercenary units available at any one time, but I imagine this cap would be increased with building upgrades).

This system allows for the inclusion of smaller factions such as Halflings (no pun intended), Albion and Amazons without having to pad out their rosters. It probably doesn't make much lore sense for these insular factions to start painting the map anyway. The DoW units could also be included in rebellions in their respective provinces (particularly the units which require Public Order to recruit) which would make overtaking foreign lands much more interesting. These units could also be expanded upon once game three is released. Want Ogre Maneaters and Oglah Khan's wolf riders? Just recreate Marco Polare's expedition to the Eastern lands!

Note, I've included Aranessa in the above list as mostly separate from the other Vampire Pirate factions. Personally I think she makes more sense as a pirate lord than a southern realms lord and in that respect I'm glad she was included in the Vampirates DLC, but with the above roster she has unique access to many more living units (so long as she can curb Vampiric Corruption) highlighting her role as the only mortal Pirate lord.

Very keen to hear people's thoughts on this, and feel free to add units and suggestions I've missed.

Comments

  • stankgangstastankgangsta Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 244
    edited November 2018
    Sound unfun and forced. Probably why they were discontinued on the TT
  • Omega_WarriorOmega_Warrior Registered Users Posts: 1,232
    The problem with your idea is that it wouldn't work on the vortex campaign.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 5,518

    Sound unfun and forced. Probably why they were discontinued on the TT

    Not at all why, the reason they were cancelled was people used them to remove weaknesses designed into armies. You have a weak cavalry? Hire the dogs of war. Weak ranged? Hire dogs of war. So people were able to remove or pad weaknesses or overtune strengths.

    Also, that up there is only for the RoR as opposed to their generic base units.

    Now as for above, some are a little to much. As I don't really want to be entirely cut off from a unit like the dark emissary if I go that way, as opposed to the truthsayer. Though I do favor some restrictions that have to be met for some of the RoR. Don't really see that as different from another recent popular army.
  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    I know some of the rogue armies a little absurd, however for the southern realms I feel like CA would restrict themselves to the order-aligned humans and a few exotic units like amazons or halflings which would not get representation otherwise. Other regiments such as the manflayers, armoured orcs or Tichi Huichis riders will be scrapped.

    But the biggest issue at the moment is if an army has enough big centerpiece units. Even though all the zombie pirates have very unique animations, seriously they look really good, when it comes to trailers and single images the average gamer will always pay attention to the big monsters. Southern realms or a DoW like army sort of lack those units, even when you consider certain units like the land-ship.

    Another issue, that is still a little uncertain, is if GW only wants CA to consider fantasy races only and otherwise European cultures only. This is based on the lore and game direction that GW has gone into recently. If a culture is similar to some other real culture then it should be occupied by a fantasy race, such as the lizardmen and to a lesser extent the greenskins. So the fate for a faction like Araby is really uncertain, despite all the winks and nods CA has given, since that involves showing humans in a specific way and there is a risk of appropriation. Alternatively this might be wrong, I am sure there have been a few IPs and games that have done stuff that is similar and faced no real negative feedback.
    Although if the above is true then it might make something like DoW a bit more likely, but perhaps even Amazons or Albion. Although the latter 2 require a large amount of made up units, way more than something like the vampire coast which only has a small number of invented units.

    Or we are just not getting another DLC after the lord pack. Which would be a shame.
  • ArstellandaArstellanda Registered Users Posts: 341
    I don't think such a system would be well received to be honest. And getting so many units like this is something I wouldn't be in support of either.

    However, a similar system could be in place in regards to actual Regiments of Renown and not to what would be the "standard" roster. This could be in place with "Contracts" you could have through certain missions that unlock the more powerful version of a standard unit like it happens with the Empire, that i think would make more sense.

    The other thing is that the Tilea and Estalian city-states aspire to be empires since they continuously try to take over each other, it's just that they don't have enough power on their own and they make alliances precisely to take one down.
    And I would expect Borgio to be a LL for Miragliano too at this point, and since he actually he had some big plan before meeting his demise, CA can build from there and make something from there for the "lore" in the game.

    For the rest expect CA to do at least something new like they did with the Vampire Coast, perhaps even with Estalia in mind, and I would expect the city-states to operate like the Empire while also giving an option to play some LLs like hordes *potentially*.
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    Nyxilis said:

    Sound unfun and forced. Probably why they were discontinued on the TT

    Not at all why, the reason they were cancelled was people used them to remove weaknesses designed into armies. You have a weak cavalry? Hire the dogs of war. Weak ranged? Hire dogs of war. So people were able to remove or pad weaknesses or overtune strengths.

    Also, that up there is only for the RoR as opposed to their generic base units.

    Now as for above, some are a little to much. As I don't really want to be entirely cut off from a unit like the dark emissary if I go that way, as opposed to the truthsayer. Though I do favor some restrictions that have to be met for some of the RoR. Don't really see that as different from another recent popular army.
    It not work, too many same units. DoW must be a faction, with wide roster.
    There were quest getting system. Noctilus as example
  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 4,804
    Personally, I think this sounds like a great idea. I’d buy it.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • tyrannustyrannus Registered Users Posts: 1,156
    I'd rather have them play as mercenary hordes. I think it gives much more gameplay mechanics opportunities.

    Believe in humanity!
  • Canon_fodderCanon_fodder Registered Users Posts: 4

    The problem with your idea is that it wouldn't work on the vortex campaign.

    I think it could work in Vortex but differently to Mortal Empires. In the Vortex campaign, most factions would be limited to the Albion, Southlands/Araby, New World and Misc. units. However if you were playing as a Southern Realms faction (eg. New World Colonies) you would start with access to the Estalia/Tilea units, plus MAYBE you could get other Old World units through alliances (ie access to halflings and Empire wizards through alliance with Sudenberg, access to slayer pirates and the goblin hewer through alliance with dwarfs etc.). Fitting other Southern Realms factions such as Borgio or a hypothetical Estalian LL on the Vortex map may be a stretch though.
  • Canon_fodderCanon_fodder Registered Users Posts: 4
    Nyxilis said:

    Sound unfun and forced. Probably why they were discontinued on the TT

    Not at all why, the reason they were cancelled was people used them to remove weaknesses designed into armies. You have a weak cavalry? Hire the dogs of war. Weak ranged? Hire dogs of war. So people were able to remove or pad weaknesses or overtune strengths.

    Also, that up there is only for the RoR as opposed to their generic base units.

    Now as for above, some are a little to much. As I don't really want to be entirely cut off from a unit like the dark emissary if I go that way, as opposed to the truthsayer. Though I do favor some restrictions that have to be met for some of the RoR. Don't really see that as different from another recent popular army.
    The removal of army weaknesses is an issue and that's why I think ideally there would have to be (global?) recruitment caps. But also some of the additional requirements for hiring might alleviate this, for example the Amazons aren't going to fight for you unless you prove the protection of the jungles is important to your faction. If it's not, you'll be seeing them in rebel armies in the Tarantula Coast. As for the Dark Emissary v. Truthsayer as far as I know each faction only had access to one or the other (I gave wood elves access to both in the above table because they have their whole ying vs. yang thing). Fair point about some units being a bit much, but that's also kind of their appeal.
  • Canon_fodderCanon_fodder Registered Users Posts: 4

    I know some of the rogue armies a little absurd, however for the southern realms I feel like CA would restrict themselves to the order-aligned humans and a few exotic units like amazons or halflings which would not get representation otherwise. Other regiments such as the manflayers, armoured orcs or Tichi Huichis riders will be scrapped.

    But the biggest issue at the moment is if an army has enough big centerpiece units. Even though all the zombie pirates have very unique animations, seriously they look really good, when it comes to trailers and single images the average gamer will always pay attention to the big monsters. Southern realms or a DoW like army sort of lack those units, even when you consider certain units like the land-ship.

    Another issue, that is still a little uncertain, is if GW only wants CA to consider fantasy races only and otherwise European cultures only. This is based on the lore and game direction that GW has gone into recently. If a culture is similar to some other real culture then it should be occupied by a fantasy race, such as the lizardmen and to a lesser extent the greenskins. So the fate for a faction like Araby is really uncertain, despite all the winks and nods CA has given, since that involves showing humans in a specific way and there is a risk of appropriation. Alternatively this might be wrong, I am sure there have been a few IPs and games that have done stuff that is similar and faced no real negative feedback.
    Although if the above is true then it might make something like DoW a bit more likely, but perhaps even Amazons or Albion. Although the latter 2 require a large amount of made up units, way more than something like the vampire coast which only has a small number of invented units.

    Or we are just not getting another DLC after the lord pack. Which would be a shame.

    That is true about centrepiece units. They are lacking, aside from giants and the landship. However we've seen CA's creativity do wonders in filling in the gaps before. As far as your appropriation point goes, I think it is only an issue if cultures are not done tactfully and with appropriate consultation. For example compare the Oldhammer Pygmies (pretty tactless) with the Marvel universe's Wakanda. Personally I am not against a bit more diversity in the Warhammer Fantasy world, but that's a separate discussion entirely.
  • YitterbumYitterbum Registered Users Posts: 393
    Personally, this is what I have been looking at in regards to the potential DoW/Southern Realms army list and campaign mechanics.

    Potential Legendary Lords:
    ⦁ Pirazzo (Anti-large) (Most likely candidate for new world colonies)
    ⦁ Al Muktar
    ⦁ Long Drong (Hybrid: melee/pistol) (Most likely candidate for Mine of the Bearded Skull)
    ⦁ Lucrezzia Belladonna (Spellcaster)
    ⦁ Borgio the Besieger
    ⦁ Voland
    ⦁ Vespero
    ⦁ Leitpold the Black
    ⦁ Lorenzo Lupo

    Southern Realms Army List:
    Lords:
    ⦁ Mercenary General

    Heroes:
    ⦁ Mercenary Hero (similar to empire captain)
    ⦁ Hireling Wizard (lore of fire, metal, shadows, death)
    ⦁ Paymaster (morale buffs)

    Potential Mounts:
    ⦁ Warhorse
    ⦁ Barded Warhorse
    ⦁ Cart (Paymaster)
    ⦁ Pegasus
    ⦁ Demigryph
    ⦁ Griffon

    Infantry:
    ⦁ Sellswords
    ⦁ Pikemen (RoR: Leopold's Leopard Company)
    ⦁ Armored Pikemen (RoR: Alcanti Fellowship or Ricco's Republican Guard)
    ⦁ Duelists (dual swords with vanguard deploy and stalk) (RoR: Vespero's Vendetta)
    ⦁ Estalian Diestros (anti-infantry rapiers)
    ⦁ Paymaster's Bodyguard (elite armored halberdiers)

    Ranged Infantry:
    ⦁ Crossbowmen (RoR: Birdmen of Catrazza. Similar to what CA did for Raven Heralds)
    ⦁ Pavise Crossbowmen (RoR: Braganza's Besiegers)

    Hybrid Infantry:
    ⦁ Armored Pikemen with Crossbows (RoR: Pirazzo's Lost Legion)
    ⦁ Conquistadores (armored handgunners with good melee stats)

    Calvary/Chariots:
    ⦁ Mercenary Light Cavalry (sword/buckler) (RoR: Al Muktar's Desert Dogs)
    ⦁ Mercenary Light Cavalry (pistoliers)
    ⦁ Mercenary Heavy Cavalry (RoR: Voland's Venators)
    ⦁ Knights Encarmine (duelist heavy cavalry)
    ⦁ Tilean Chariots (You cannot convince me that a faction based off Rome won't have chariots)

    Artillery:
    ⦁ Ballistas
    ⦁ Onager
    ⦁ Light Cannons (RoR: Bronzino's Galloper Guns)
    ⦁ Mortars


    Potential Mercenaries from Other Factions:
    Dwarfs:
    ⦁ Sea Slayers (melee and pistol) (RoR: Long Drong's Slayer Pirates)
    ⦁ Dwarf Mercenaries (ax and shield or great weapons)
    ⦁ Dwarf Rangers
    ⦁ Goblin Hewer

    Ogres/Giants:
    ⦁ Ogre Mercenaries
    ⦁ Giant Mercenary

    Halflings:
    ⦁ Halflings (spear)
    ⦁ Halfling Archers (RoR: Lumpin Croop's Fighting Cocks)
    ⦁ Hot-Pot

    Albion:
    ⦁ Truthsayer (lore of life with flock of doom)
    ⦁ Dark Emissary (lore of shadow or death with raise dead)
    ⦁ Fen Beasts (bound summon by either Truthsayer or Dark Emissary)
    ⦁ Albion Giant (stone thrower)

    Pirates of Sartosa:
    ⦁ Sartosa Free Company (melee)
    ⦁ Sartosa Free Company (melee and pistol)

    Amazons:
    ⦁ Amazons (RoR: Anakonda's Amazons)
    ⦁ Serpent Priestess (lore of the serpent)

    Unique Mercenary RoR from Other Factions:
    ⦁ Tichi-Huichi's Raiders
    ⦁ The Cursed Company
    ⦁ Mengil Manhide's Manflayers
    ⦁ Ruglud's Armoured Orcs
    ⦁ Asarnil the Dragonlord
    ⦁ Beorg Bearstruck and the Bearmen of Urslo
    ⦁ Oglah Khan's Wolfboyz


    Starting Locations:
    It's almost certain to me that Pirazzo will make it in as a LL given the new world colonies use his flag. Other than that, there is a slew of potential characters to use as LL's from Dogs of War and Tilea/Estalian/Boarder Princes lore. As for the remaining start positions, there is Sudenburg. If CA wants to add Long Drong, then there is also Mine of the Bearded skull. Depending on whether or not Albion is made into a Lizardmen settlement, the Southern Realms could also use that. Or CA could add the Amazon's Island and let them use that. Or they can just be placed on other free locations on the map.

    Campaign Gameplay/Mechanics:
    As for campaign gameplay, I figure that most of their focus will be on exploration and settlement of the new world and old world. To emphasis this, certain units need to be found or controlled before you can gain access to them in the campaign. (i.e. Control Albion and get Truthsayers, Dark Emissaries, and Albion Giants. Capture Sartosa and get pirates. Capture the Amazon's Island and get Amazons. Others mercenaries like Ogres, Halflings, and Dwarfs would have specific building chains to unlock them, since they are present in the old world and would potentially allow to be bought out.

    Going along with this theme, there will probably be a specific mercenary RoR system aside from Southern Realms specific RoR's that would allow you to obtain mercenaries based off the location you are in on the grand campaign map. Go to the badlands and be able to recruit Ruglud's Armored Orcs. Go to the Southlands and be able to get Richi-Huichi's Raiders. Go to the Empire provinces and be able to recruit Lumpin Croop's Fighting Cocks. Etc. Mercenaries obtained this way would have a high upkeep and buy out price.

    The Southern Realms would also introduce a new diplomatic option to be able to buy out rogue armies in order to control them on the campaign map and battlefield for a certain amount of turns if you have enough wealth to do so. That would give rogue armies more of a mercenary feel and give them potential uses as allies (pawns) rather than annoyances.

    Similar to Alith Anar, the Southern Realms will have various quests and tasks given to them to complete in order to gain wealth, rare items, and buffs to simulate the Southern Realms being mercenaries for hire.

    The southern realms should be a hybrid horde faction to allow them to set up camp wherever they need to and potentially colonize areas which they need to.

    Confederating with other Southern Realms factions can only be done after defeating their lord's army and having more power than them. (i.e. similar to Norsca, but it prevents beating out one of their lords and being able to confederate with a faction that is technically stronger in power than you are.) The stronger you are compared to the other faction, the better the odds at confederation.

    In terms of main campaign goals, the objective would be to locate some big score or huge amass of wealth beyond imagination hidden in the new world. To do this, you will have to do some "Indiana Jones" or "Tomb Raider" style quests to find hidden clues to this score's location. The other Southern Realms colonies will be working against you in this regard.



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