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My 2 concerns with Vampire Coast

Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,616
Overall i think their units are well balanced but i do have 2 issues with their army.

Deck Droppers (handguns) - feel very under-priced and they break some match-ups

Summons - WOW they can summon so many units and those are not even bad units, on top you can pick a lord that can summon even more units.

I'm really not ok with this, its ok for VC to summon so many units because they an all melee faction, but VP have so much range that can shoot into combat with the summons or intercept good play from opponent by summoning to cover their missile units or cannons, its already hard enough that their units don't rout but now you can block paths with summons.

I'm not sure which of their units are UP and if there are any they can be buffed but the summon spam needs looking into.

Not really sure how to balance this but they shouldn't be able to summon a whole army in such a roster.
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Comments

  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 2,708
    it doesn't matter, we're stuck with broken as hell vampire coast for 3 months until the next DLC comes out and in the meantime everyone is going to start picking them on ladder. Get ready for either Coast vs Counts or Coast mirror matches. Thats the meta for the forseeable future.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,616

    it doesn't matter, we're stuck with broken as hell vampire coast for 3 months until the next DLC comes out and in the meantime everyone is going to start picking them on ladder. Get ready for either Coast vs Counts or Coast mirror matches. Thats the meta for the forseeable future.

    There might be a hot fix, there always is to do with something hence the need to speak up.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Registered Users Posts: 1,947
    I think the lack of mobility is a good enough justifications for summons, as mobility is what summons offer. I do agree that it's a bit over the top atm.
    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 2,708

    I think the lack of mobility is a good enough justifications for summons, as mobility is what summons offer. I do agree that it's a bit over the top atm.

    what do they need mobility for? They have guns.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,608

    I think the lack of mobility is a good enough justifications for summons, as mobility is what summons offer. I do agree that it's a bit over the top atm.

    what do they need mobility for? They have guns.
    To have a flexible defense. Having guns doesnt automatically mean you dont need mobility.
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  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 2,708
    edited November 2018
    Wyvern2 said:

    I think the lack of mobility is a good enough justifications for summons, as mobility is what summons offer. I do agree that it's a bit over the top atm.

    what do they need mobility for? They have guns.
    To have a flexible defense. Having guns doesnt automatically mean you dont need mobility.
    All they need to be is probably spaced out from each other. Shoot the enemy with one group as they try to attack the other.

    That cross fire from 5 or 6 different units is DEVASTATING. Haven't you noticed that? It deletes units off the field in a manner of seconds.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,028
    edited November 2018
    Wyvern2 said:

    I think the lack of mobility is a good enough justifications for summons, as mobility is what summons offer. I do agree that it's a bit over the top atm.

    what do they need mobility for? They have guns.
    To have a flexible defense. Having guns doesnt automatically mean you dont need mobility.
    I think they have sufficient mobility with so much firepower, better than the dwarfs. The summon makes it not even a problem.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,011
    Don't really see the problem with the summons; yeah, they're better than VC or Skaven summons, but they're also a good bit more expensive.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Registered Users Posts: 1,947

    I think the lack of mobility is a good enough justifications for summons, as mobility is what summons offer. I do agree that it's a bit over the top atm.

    They have more mobility than the dwarfs, and arguably better guns.

    For sure but I also think Master Engineer should have Summon Miners with the Skaven summon animation ;)

    I don't mean to downplay Vampiriates mobility that much. They have dogs, bats and high mass monsters.
    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 2,708
    You know I'm going to make the analogy to Pokemon for a second because I use to play it competitively and was even a gym leader at one point. I started in gen 4th (Diamond/Pearl). And there was a pokemon called Garchomp. Now Garchomp isn't a legendary pokemon like Mewtwo, he's just that gen's Dragon line pokemon. A couple of things about Garchomp made him incredible. His base speed was 102 or 103 I think if I remember right. That is huge because most offensive pokemon had a speed base of 100, meaning if you invested fully into his speed he'd never get outrun by the vast majority of pokemon and could proceed to take out 3-4 in a row, what we in the community called a sweep. He could do this because he had a tremendous base attack of 130 which was unheard of on a pokemon so fast. And best of all he could multiply his attack stat with a boosting move called Swords Dance. So the idea was come in on something slower than it or something it scared out, set up a Swords Dance and then from there you can proceed to wreck the opponents team with a combination of Earthquake and Outrage, 2 moves with tremendous base power on their own, one was Ground type the other Dragon type so they covered each others weaknesses. Needless to say it was a devastating combination requiring only 3 move slots meaning you had 1 move slot left over for a total of 4.

    Now this isn't to say that there was no counter play to Garchomp, on the contrary, the meta became centered around it. Most teams it was mandatory to run either a Garchomp of your own with an item called Choice Scarf in order to surprise the opponent and outspeed it or use 2 pokemon by the name of Mamoswine and Weavile who had access to a move called Ice Shard, a move which was ice type(which Garchomp is x4 weak to) and has +1 priority meaning it goes first regardless of what the speed is. Scizor was another option because he also had an extremely powerful +1 priority move called Bullet Punch which was steel type, not effective but not resisted either. But Garchomp had just good enough defenses to survive one of those even boosted to +1 attack, and he could use Fire Blast in return which destroyed Scizor for his huge weakness to fire.

    Well eventually the community got sick and tired of the meta game just revolving around 1 single pokemon. So they did something that had never been done. They banned a none legendary pokemon. There was huge outcry from Garchomp fans a the like who claimed "thats what counter picking is for!" "what are you just going to ban any half decent pokemon that requires people to plan for it?!"

    Its not different from what i see here. 1 faction has an extremely powerful build which CAN be counter picked and dealt with but is so good that if not counter picked its almost a guaranteed loss, so most of the time its at least required to plan in some capacity.

    When a single unit or build becomes so good or powerful that it flat out requires the entire meta to shift around it then its unbalanced and needs to be banned. Luckly in Warhammer, things can be nerfed. We don't have that in Pokemon. We do have that here.

    Right now that build is Vampire Coast with mass powder and summons. Every faction has to prepare for it or be prepared to suffer a lose. And if the opponent brings something else they can catch the counter pick off guard and win like that.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,616
    edited November 2018

    I think the lack of mobility is a good enough justifications for summons, as mobility is what summons offer. I do agree that it's a bit over the top atm.

    They have wolves, bats, lots vanguard and flying gunns, plus flying monsters. I think they have plenty of mobility the only thing they lack is heavy cav but they have medium pace monster units.

    The fact they can have tones of missile units and their chaff doesn't break is already hard for some factions to beat, but now you add summons to it it becomes silly, 2 different summons is too much.
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,196
    edited November 2018
    The gunbats are extremely underpriced, no two ways about it. Basically Outriders with a some extras that you would usually pay a high premium for (flying, undead), yet they cost exactly the same.

    A cheap flying AP missile unit is a recipe for abuse and in this case it seems like very little thought went into how to guard against that.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,610
    Outside gunbats, which can abuse certain factions, I'd say Vampire Coast is pretty much ok in terms of balance.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,616

    Outside gunbats, which can abuse certain factions, I'd say Vampire Coast is pretty much ok in terms of balance.

    I have more issue with theor summons than gunbats to be honest. You're basically vsing 1.5 armies.
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,196
    I often hear statements like that about summons (e.g. Morghur having "2k free gold" of summoned spawn) but really it seems difficult to put a fixed value on summoned units due to how they decay. Overloading a key engagement with many summons or one powerful summon is strong. Being able to drop summons at key positions to block up enemy manouevres or disrupt their missiles is strong. But just being able to summon units in a vacuum doesn't represent the same value as having a non-decaying version of that unit in your army.

    ZP can summon 1 unit of ghost knights, 2 crabs and 4 zombies. That's a lot of summons but I'm not sure that it's more than Beastmen (2 spawn, 2 cygors) or Skaven (7 clanrats, 2 plague monks) and it's definitely not more than Vampire Counts who can now summon 7 zombs/skeletons + their pick of 2 varghulfs, 2 crypt ghouls/horrors, 2 grave guard/wight kings or Krell...


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,616
    You're correct in your statement, just skaven ones can be broken easily and VC ones are in a melee roster, with beastman the cooldown is very long. Where as ZP can pop 3 almost instantly and which are "undead" in a faction that in almost all cases will have missile superiority, It allowes ZP players to pick minnium melee troops and optimise their ranged firepower with their gold because they can just summon units to stop the charges and those summons deal damage also, in many cases its like having 5WOM net that lasts very long time and fights also because it makes the opponents troops immobile. I really think its very comparable to the effect of single target net from lore of light because it makes the opponent immobile when summend on top of him but last much longer and it deals some damage also.

    I do think in general all summons in the game are bit too strong even the ones you mentioned but it shows the most in ZP army.
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,196
    Beasts can pop 3 almost instantly too. Morghur + a Wild Shaman bring up a unit of spawn + a cygor, and then focusing an enemy unit down to low HP with the help of those 2 summons procs the 2nd spawn.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,610

    Outside gunbats, which can abuse certain factions, I'd say Vampire Coast is pretty much ok in terms of balance.

    I have more issue with theor summons than gunbats to be honest. You're basically vsing 1.5 armies.
    That could be influenced by the fact that factions you generally play have very few issues with gunbats.

    But for factions like Norsca and even Chaos... , gunbats are a huge problem in the hands of good players
  • RiccardoCorradiniRiccardoCorradini Registered Users Posts: 658
    Yeah but you can di this only with a specific LL(that offerta you nothing apart from summon in terms of ability) and a shaman for a very expensive combination.

    In the ther hand against coast you will instantly face a giant crab+9 big crab+45 terror causing 75% PR knight+ 120 chaff to pin...and cylostra can still use other ability. To buff debuff...

    Apart from that,as coast it will require a very little effort to have a ton of summons. And having two caster is not even that bad because they all are good and even the BASIC caster have taunt or AL or Pistols and roba of utility

    Very different than beastmen or skaven imo
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,610
    Gunbats are ridiculous. Even if you give them a reduction in price because they're in 'gunpowder based army', there's no way they should be less than 900.
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,196

    Yeah but you can di this only with a specific LL(that offerta you nothing apart from summon in terms of ability) and a shaman for a very expensive combination.

    In the ther hand against coast you will instantly face a giant crab+9 big crab+45 terror causing 75% PR knight+ 120 chaff to pin...and cylostra can still use other ability. To buff debuff...

    That combo costs over $1,000 more (at minimum) than the "very expensive combination" for beasts.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,292

    Gunbats are ridiculous. Even if you give them a reduction in price because they're in 'gunpowder based army', there's no way they should be less than 900.

    They are at least suck in melee(vs good archers too). My main concern is Harkon he alone can snipe all important targets.


    I have more issue with theor summons than gunbats to be honest. You're basically vsing 1.5 armies.

    It is due to you playing mainly ranged factions without cost-effective infantry. For strong and cheap melee factions summons are a lesser issue.
    Vs melee oriented factions VPs air are just broken. And while with Deck Droopers it is possible to deal, with Harkon you need to bring all air.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,610
    Whether they suck in melee or not is irrelevant. They won't get in melee, and they can run away from other fliers back to protection of their ground based missiles and they don't cost much more than ground based missiles that are supposed to counter them, which they can also avoid easily and move away.

    If Hawks are 950, then gunbats should be 1000-1100 range. Even if we give them Vampire Coast discount, 900 is the absolute minimum.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Registered Users Posts: 1,947
    edited November 2018

    I think the lack of mobility is a good enough justifications for summons, as mobility is what summons offer. I do agree that it's a bit over the top atm.

    They have wolves, bats, lots vanguard and flying gunns, plus flying monsters. I think they have plenty of mobility the only thing they lack is heavy cav but they have medium pace monster units.

    The fact they can have tones of missile units and their chaff doesn't break is already hard for some factions to beat, but now you add summons to it it becomes silly, 2 different summons is too much.
    I'm arguing that the summons existence are justified, not that they are balanced atm, which I'm not interested in taking a stance on at the moment.

    and by lack, I do not mean absent. I mean the VP mobile assets can not match the demands needed by their rear guard units foot print. As a skirmisher foot print grows in size, it creates more holes to exploit in your line which puts more demands on your mobile assets. Vamp pirates have the largest skirmishing line in the game, this is not with out it's weaknesses.

    And I know about overlapping supportive fire and I still think summons are justified in the VP roster.


    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,257

    Whether they suck in melee or not is irrelevant. They won't get in melee, and they can run away from other fliers back to protection of their ground based missiles and they don't cost much more than ground based missiles that are supposed to counter them, which they can also avoid easily and move away.

    If Hawks are 950, then gunbats should be 1000-1100 range. Even if we give them Vampire Coast discount, 900 is the absolute minimum.

    You are exaggerating a bit.


    I mean, yeah, bats are more precise than the hawks' terribly slow missiles, have ap damage, and have a much higher total ranged damage due to having a much slower rate of fire, meaning more damage per shot. But they also have terrible melee damage, bad CB, and a pathetic ap ratio in melee of... 10%.

    I can understand how they can break certain MUs, but I think it's more of a problem of them having a great sinergy and some factions lacking proper counters than the unit being OP per se.


  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 31,317
    Pocman said:

    Whether they suck in melee or not is irrelevant. They won't get in melee, and they can run away from other fliers back to protection of their ground based missiles and they don't cost much more than ground based missiles that are supposed to counter them, which they can also avoid easily and move away.

    If Hawks are 950, then gunbats should be 1000-1100 range. Even if we give them Vampire Coast discount, 900 is the absolute minimum.

    You are exaggerating a bit.


    I mean, yeah, bats are more precise than the hawks' terribly slow missiles, have ap damage, and have a much higher total ranged damage due to having a much slower rate of fire, meaning more damage per shot. But they also have terrible melee damage, bad CB, and a pathetic ap ratio in melee of... 10%.

    I can understand how they can break certain MUs, but I think it's more of a problem of them having a great sinergy and some factions lacking proper counters than the unit being OP per se.


    Since you never use Deck Droppers in melee this is completely irrelevant.

  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,196
    Yeah, the lack of melee stats is just a mark of efficiency. The unit isn't paying for stats it doesn't use.

    Gunbats are speed 90 and have Terrorgheists and regular Fell Bats to protect them. In the hands of any competent player they never need to see melee.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,257

    Pocman said:

    Whether they suck in melee or not is irrelevant. They won't get in melee, and they can run away from other fliers back to protection of their ground based missiles and they don't cost much more than ground based missiles that are supposed to counter them, which they can also avoid easily and move away.

    If Hawks are 950, then gunbats should be 1000-1100 range. Even if we give them Vampire Coast discount, 900 is the absolute minimum.

    You are exaggerating a bit.


    I mean, yeah, bats are more precise than the hawks' terribly slow missiles, have ap damage, and have a much higher total ranged damage due to having a much slower rate of fire, meaning more damage per shot. But they also have terrible melee damage, bad CB, and a pathetic ap ratio in melee of... 10%.

    I can understand how they can break certain MUs, but I think it's more of a problem of them having a great sinergy and some factions lacking proper counters than the unit being OP per se.


    Since you never use Deck Droppers in melee this is completely irrelevant.
    It is not. The reason you don't use them in melee is because you can't. If they had the stats for it, you would. And obviously, that is a skill you would have to pay for.


    Yeah, the lack of melee stats is just a mark of efficiency. The unit isn't paying for stats it doesn't use.

    Gunbats are speed 90 and have Terrorgheists and regular Fell Bats to protect them. In the hands of any competent player they never need to see melee.

    And that is why I blame sinergy more than them being OP. Stat wise, they are fine. However, any natural enemy that could counter them is perfectly countered in time by the rest of the roster: cannons, other air units, and mass land based missiles.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 31,317
    That's like saying Handgunners should be cheaper because they have crap melee stats, it's simply not relevant.

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,257

    That's like saying Handgunners should be cheaper because they have crap melee stats, it's simply not relevant.

    Handgunners have the melee stats they deserve at their cost. It is relevant. Bump their stats, and they would be more expensive (for example, thunderers, while dealing less ranged damage and having less hp due to lower model count, cost 100 more than handgunners because they have better melee stats -and a shield-, which makes them harder to remove from the field, which give you more time to support them before they are wiped).

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