Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Lords and heroes for demons

yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Posts: 351Registered Users
edited November 2018 in General Discussion
First off; PLEASE NO DISCUSSING MONOGODS VS UNIFIED DEMONS UNLESS IT IS SPECIFICALLY RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC OF THE DISCUSSION!

What I want to dalk about is how the demonic lords and heroes should be implemented, especially greater demons. Greater demons are some of the most powerful beings in the warhammer world and several levels above almost any other "standard" lord type.

So, how should greater demons be implented? They could be restricted in the form of rites(like Slann) or technologies etc, but that would also limit the number of armies you could field which coul be a problem. On the other hand, if greater demons were recruited just like normal lords it might be a problem because they could A; be overpowered compared to other normal lords, or B; be balanced with other normal lords but then being too weak compared to what they should be.

Another issue I was thinking about, is the unique demonic heralds. Now, most people propably want the starting LLs to be greater demons, and we have named greater demons for each of the four gods. If four LLs are enough, then there is no problem, but if more are to be added an issue arises. Having several greater demon LLs of the same god could be boring and too similiar, while adding unique heralds like Skulltaker would be a bit strange, as it puts him on the same level as greater demons. It also creates another strange situation if Skulltaker, Epidemus etc. are lords while normal demonic heralds are heroes.

These are just my thoughts, what do you guys think?
Post edited by yolordmcswag on
Tagged:
«1

Comments

  • makar55makar55 Posts: 1,426Registered Users
    edited November 2018
    OP unit = costs 5000 per turn. This is how simple it is. For mp rules go the same way. Moreover if you take such unit in MP make him take 5 slots there instead of 1 in campaign.

    Right now all giant units have 10000 hit points and I find it boring.

    As for heroes and Lords, we had thousands threads about it and I want all of it. All possible heroes/Lords to be in game.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,465Registered Users
    I don't see Greater Demons as being OP or "too weak" they should simply be made the same way Kholek, Durthu, or one of the Ogre LL's are. Powerful yet with high upkeep and balanced. They can be on par with those sorts of lords, or lords with big mounts.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • makar55makar55 Posts: 1,426Registered Users

    I don't see Greater Demons as being OP or "too weak" they should simply be made the same way Kholek, Durthu, or one of the Ogre LL's are. Powerful yet with high upkeep and balanced. They can be on par with those sorts of lords, or lords with big mounts.

    B O R I N G
  • FifthOfSpaghettiFifthOfSpaghetti Posts: 1,611Registered Users
    edited November 2018
    Adding Skulltaker as a legendary lord is fine as he does lead armies(at least in 40k he does, not as familiar with fantasy demons)

    Edit: apart from Legendary Lords like Skarbrand or something I like how Slann are unlocked through a rite. It would be interesting to see a similar mechanic used for greater demons so that you can’t just spam them in campaign, really giving their strength emphasis
  • hon3ynutshon3ynuts Senior Member Posts: 331Registered Users
    I Think having Greater Deamon lords or Regiments of renoun unlocked by technology like in the Vampire Coast or the Tomb Kings would be a good system. Even Norsca can get a Deamon lord from Worship and that seems like an interesting tradeoff(im pretty sure norsca can, I never got him myself)
  • misunderstoodvampiremisunderstoodvampire Posts: 548Registered Users
    Are greater daemons units or lords or both?
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 9,544Registered Users
    Well if a monogods armies would have a mortal lords then they could be used as a alternative lords.
    4 Fully Independent Monogods Armies would be great for a Storyline about the Great Game in Total War: Warhammer 3.
  • DaGangsterDaGangster Junior Member Posts: 616Registered Users

    I don't see Greater Demons as being OP or "too weak" they should simply be made the same way Kholek, Durthu, or one of the Ogre LL's are. Powerful yet with high upkeep and balanced. They can be on par with those sorts of lords, or lords with big mounts.

    Exactly there isn't really anything to discuss, I imagine the different Greater Demons will just be lords that buff their respective units nothing game changing, maybe also de-buffing their rivals units cause chaos. How you get them could be one of the demons main gameplay mechanics because they are as bad ass as they are rare. I'm sure when playing as the demons it will be more along the lines of a few elite armies rather than tons of chaff.

    Team Vampire Counts

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,465Registered Users
    makar55 said:

    I don't see Greater Demons as being OP or "too weak" they should simply be made the same way Kholek, Durthu, or one of the Ogre LL's are. Powerful yet with high upkeep and balanced. They can be on par with those sorts of lords, or lords with big mounts.

    B O R I N G
    Wrong :).
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,465Registered Users

    I don't see Greater Demons as being OP or "too weak" they should simply be made the same way Kholek, Durthu, or one of the Ogre LL's are. Powerful yet with high upkeep and balanced. They can be on par with those sorts of lords, or lords with big mounts.

    Exactly there isn't really anything to discuss, I imagine the different Greater Demons will just be lords that buff their respective units nothing game changing, maybe also de-buffing their rivals units cause chaos. How you get them could be one of the demons main gameplay mechanics because they are as bad ass as they are rare. I'm sure when playing as the demons it will be more along the lines of a few elite armies rather than tons of chaff.
    Could be. Regardless the game already has multiple high power LL's. It's simply a matter of balancing them along those lines.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • rgfezrefrgfezref Junior Member Posts: 68Registered Users
    I feel like they should be very powerful, maybe start out weak and get significantly stronger or have something tough to slow their progress enough that they don't just charge down into the old and new world.

    Rites sound like a good idea.
    Maybe start out with one army and earn cash to activate a rite recruit another lord. All lords are immortal but don't simply comeback like others, needing a costly rite to be able to be able to return them to the field with the cost increasing based on level (the more powerful the demon the greater the tribute needed to bring him into the material world.)
  • kelembriborkelembribor Posts: 349Registered Users
    edited November 2018
    As I recall about tabletop rules, big part of their gameplay were "Deamonic" rules , immunity to fear and psychology, they had special aura, attacks and instability as mechanic that caused Reality Blinks or getting banished , maybe it will work as crumbling for undead?
    End of this video shows how I would like it to look (00:52)


  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 2,059Registered Users
    I imagine we will get Exalted Greater Daemons as Lords, with lesser "normal" Greater Daemons as normal units (or heroes, as we haven't had full caster units before, and LoC would certainly be that).

    Monogods (promise this is relevant) would be slightly different, with mortal Lords who can be ascended to Daemon Princes after earning enough favour from their god. But wouldn't be able to access (or would have very limited access to) Exalted Greater Daemons. Daemon Princes would likely only show up in Monogod factions (or in an unprecidentedly massive WoC update) as 4 Lord choices for DoC is already quite a lot, so not much more room for princes.

    Just my take anyway.
  • vintagepurplevintagepurple Posts: 566Registered Users
    edited November 2018
    Uh, no greater daemons as heroes or units plz.

    They could be locked behind mechanics like rites or blood kisses if they're THAT powerful. In that case, just have generic DPs/buff heralds as generic lord choices. Or just balance them along the existing monstrous lords?

    I love Chaos but the whole "every greater daemon must be the biggest most bestest lord ever" thing is overstated. TT, like TW, has never reflected lore. Make the generic ones on the same tier as dragon lords or treemen and that's fine, with the LL ones being buff monsters like Kholek, Durthu, or Everchicken.

    And even in lore for every "NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY EVER MATCH A LORD OF CHANGE NEVER EVER" there's a "And then Lord Aelfarion Genericus heroically slew the bloodthirster, at the cost of his heroic dragon Draconia.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 833Registered Users
    Unleash their raw power. They should be only balanced through cost instead of reducing them into already vast swathes of mediocrity that is called "balance".
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 2,059Registered Users

    Uh, no greater daemons as heroes or units plz.

    They could be locked behind mechanics like rites or blood kisses if they're THAT powerful. In that case, just have generic DPs/buff heralds as generic lord choices. Or just balance them along the existing monstrous lords?

    I love Chaos but the whole "every greater daemon must be the biggest most bestest lord ever" thing is overstated. TT, like TW, has never reflected lore. Make the generic ones on the same tier as dragon lords or treemen and that's fine, with the LL ones being buff monsters like Kholek, Durthu, or Everchicken.

    And even in lore for every "NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY EVER MATCH A LORD OF CHANGE NEVER EVER" there's a "And then Lord Aelfarion Genericus heroically slew the bloodthirster, at the cost of his heroic dragon Draconia.

    Except lorewise only things like Star Dragons or their equivalent (very powrful Shaggoths, Treeman Ancients etc) can go toe to toe with generic Greater Daemons, even most of the most powerful LLs would struggle against them, usually only the most insane casters being able to take several on. Anaerion did well against them but he had a particularly powerful dragon and the Sword of Khaine.

    In TT I believe GW ran a "tournament" pitting the named characters against each other, and included a Bloodthirster.... The Bloodthirster won. Not saying they should be unstoppable uberbeasts, but they should be up there with characters like Kholek, and LLs like Skarbrand should be able to 1v1 pretty much anything fairly convincingly. Also in TT I am pretty sure they can be taken as a lord (may be wrong).

    I do think their campaign will have some sort of "binding" or "materialisation" gimmick, in which they may be weakened in regions with low Winds of Magic - with Greater Daemons suffering a lot as they struggle to maintain their presence in the world.
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Posts: 787Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    I imagine we will get Exalted Greater Daemons as Lords, with lesser "normal" Greater Daemons as normal units (or heroes, as we haven't had full caster units before, and LoC would certainly be that).

    Monogods (promise this is relevant) would be slightly different, with mortal Lords who can be ascended to Daemon Princes after earning enough favour from their god. But wouldn't be able to access (or would have very limited access to) Exalted Greater Daemons. Daemon Princes would likely only show up in Monogod factions (or in an unprecidentedly massive WoC update) as 4 Lord choices for DoC is already quite a lot, so not much more room for princes.

    Just my take anyway.

    And where is place for Daemon Prince?
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 2,059Registered Users

    Goatforce said:

    I imagine we will get Exalted Greater Daemons as Lords, with lesser "normal" Greater Daemons as normal units (or heroes, as we haven't had full caster units before, and LoC would certainly be that).

    Monogods (promise this is relevant) would be slightly different, with mortal Lords who can be ascended to Daemon Princes after earning enough favour from their god. But wouldn't be able to access (or would have very limited access to) Exalted Greater Daemons. Daemon Princes would likely only show up in Monogod factions (or in an unprecidentedly massive WoC update) as 4 Lord choices for DoC is already quite a lot, so not much more room for princes.

    Just my take anyway.

    And where is place for Daemon Prince?
    As I said, with Monogods, with a mechanic to ascend a mortal lord to princedom
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Posts: 787Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    I imagine we will get Exalted Greater Daemons as Lords, with lesser "normal" Greater Daemons as normal units (or heroes, as we haven't had full caster units before, and LoC would certainly be that).

    Monogods (promise this is relevant) would be slightly different, with mortal Lords who can be ascended to Daemon Princes after earning enough favour from their god. But wouldn't be able to access (or would have very limited access to) Exalted Greater Daemons. Daemon Princes would likely only show up in Monogod factions (or in an unprecidentedly massive WoC update) as 4 Lord choices for DoC is already quite a lot, so not much more room for princes.

    Just my take anyway.

    And where is place for Daemon Prince?
    As I said, with Monogods, with a mechanic to ascend a mortal lord to princedom
    Idk. CA wont go fo it. Every LL present faction, and when they became Daemon Prince they change their model.
    And just imagin motral lord lead army, Daemon roster include the strongest demon in tww (at least 1 for faction). And he comanded by simple human. No it wont work
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 2,059Registered Users

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    I imagine we will get Exalted Greater Daemons as Lords, with lesser "normal" Greater Daemons as normal units (or heroes, as we haven't had full caster units before, and LoC would certainly be that).

    Monogods (promise this is relevant) would be slightly different, with mortal Lords who can be ascended to Daemon Princes after earning enough favour from their god. But wouldn't be able to access (or would have very limited access to) Exalted Greater Daemons. Daemon Princes would likely only show up in Monogod factions (or in an unprecidentedly massive WoC update) as 4 Lord choices for DoC is already quite a lot, so not much more room for princes.

    Just my take anyway.

    And where is place for Daemon Prince?
    As I said, with Monogods, with a mechanic to ascend a mortal lord to princedom
    Idk. CA wont go fo it. Every LL present faction, and when they became Daemon Prince they change their model.
    And just imagin motral lord lead army, Daemon roster include the strongest demon in tww (at least 1 for faction). And he comanded by simple human. No it wont work
    This is why DoC won't have properly implemented Princes, they could only come with Monos, and it is unlikely that princes would be in DoC roster if we get Exalted Daemon Lords, as they would be rather similar and give the DoC an extremely bloated Lord list (especially if we get Herald Lords as more vanilla to the Greater Daemon's spicey).
  • SaitohSaitoh Posts: 237Registered Users
    I'm not seeing where the balance problem is. A greater daemon is only as strong as a star dragon, and every generic lord gets one on top of being a regular unit.
  • vintagepurplevintagepurple Posts: 566Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    Uh, no greater daemons as heroes or units plz.

    They could be locked behind mechanics like rites or blood kisses if they're THAT powerful. In that case, just have generic DPs/buff heralds as generic lord choices. Or just balance them along the existing monstrous lords?

    I love Chaos but the whole "every greater daemon must be the biggest most bestest lord ever" thing is overstated. TT, like TW, has never reflected lore. Make the generic ones on the same tier as dragon lords or treemen and that's fine, with the LL ones being buff monsters like Kholek, Durthu, or Everchicken.

    And even in lore for every "NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY EVER MATCH A LORD OF CHANGE NEVER EVER" there's a "And then Lord Aelfarion Genericus heroically slew the bloodthirster, at the cost of his heroic dragon Draconia.

    Except lorewise only things like Star Dragons or their equivalent (very powrful Shaggoths, Treeman Ancients etc) can go toe to toe with generic Greater Daemons, even most of the most powerful LLs would struggle against them, usually only the most insane casters being able to take several on. Anaerion did well against them but he had a particularly powerful dragon and the Sword of Khaine.

    In TT I believe GW ran a "tournament" pitting the named characters against each other, and included a Bloodthirster.... The Bloodthirster won. Not saying they should be unstoppable uberbeasts, but they should be up there with characters like Kholek, and LLs like Skarbrand should be able to 1v1 pretty much anything fairly convincingly. Also in TT I am pretty sure they can be taken as a lord (may be wrong).

    I do think their campaign will have some sort of "binding" or "materialisation" gimmick, in which they may be weakened in regions with low Winds of Magic - with Greater Daemons suffering a lot as they struggle to maintain their presence in the world.
    Yeah. A bloodthirster. The dudes who sacrifice EVERY BIT OF UTILITY for combat stats.

    They can work alongside your Durthus and Kholeks and Star Dragon Princes. Because "me am can punch goodly" is their one, only benefit.

    They'll also handily beat up the either Greater Daemons, but they're probably the least useful one overall.

    Also, yeah, they can... only be a lord? Which is what I said?
  • FifthOfSpaghettiFifthOfSpaghetti Posts: 1,611Registered Users
    Demon princes could be lords for Chaos Warriors and Heroes for demons. Done. Ez pz
  • ThanquolThanquol Senior Member SkavenblightPosts: 2,017Registered Users
    (sorry to bring up mono vs unified but it is an important aspect of how I see the lords working. Suffice to say I'm going under the presumption of a unified roster, I'll leave it at that)

    I'd probably expect Daemons of Chaos lords to be the Greater Daemons and the LL's the more quirky named versions of them (Skarbrand,Kairos Fateweaver,Ku'gath Plaguefather,
    N'kari) With two of the LL's arriving as DLC, one free and one paid going by the model of TWW2. I can see the Daemon princes being added in the paid DLC pack that comes with the RoR and extra LL.

    On the battlefield, I feel we've got a good look what one of them will look like in the form of Sarthorael the Everwatcher and I expect the base Greater Daemons to be about this power level, but with each having there own focuses in the stat line. I see Bloodthirsters having huge weapon damage and Magic resistance, the Great Unclean One with the largest HP of the four and physical resist, but is the slowest moving, the Lord of Change being pretty middle of the road stats wise of the four, with its character abilities being bound spells and winds of magic manipulators, alongside that huge missile resistance we see on the Everwatcher. The keeper of Secrets I see being the most squishy (lowest HP and armour with worst resistances) and lowest weapon damage, but it's weapon damage being very high percentage armour peircing making it second best in melee to the Bloodthirster. I also see it having the highest Melee attack stat of the four and being the fastest moving making it a giant sized hit and run style assassin.

    Magic wise I expect each base greater Daemon to come with two lores variations:

    Bloodthirster - none but has high magic resistance
    Lord of Change - Lore of Metal or Lore of Tzeentch
    Great Unclean One - Lore of Death or Lore of Nurgle
    Keeper of Secrets - Lore of Shadows or Lore of Slaanesh
    Daemon Prince - Mix of Lore of Death and Lore of Shadows or Metal
    Skarbrand - Same as Bloodthirster
    Kairos Fateweaver - A mix of multiple lores much like the HE Loremaster of Hoeth with a couple bound Lore of Tzeench spells.
    Ku'gath Plaguefather - Lore of Nurgle
    N'kari - Mix of Lore of Shadows and Lore of Slaanesh

    In campaign I can see a faction mechanic tied to the the Lords of your armies with Lords recieving a reduction to recruitment and upkeep for units of the same alignment, and increased costs for those of rival alignment within their armies. The skill tree could potentially feature skills that increase this effect either by making the cost of aligned units straight up cheaper or doing so whilst making rival aligned units even more expensive.

    A rough example:

    .Bloodthirster/Skarbrand - Khorne Daemon units -20% recruitment cost and upkeep, Slaanesh Daemon units +20% recruitment cost and upkeep. Nurgle and Tzeentch units remain uneffected.

    .Lord of Change/Kairos - Tzeentch Daemon units -20% recruitment cost and upkeep, Nurgle Daemon units +20% recruitment cost and upkeep. Khorne and Slaanesh units remain uneffected.

    .Great Unclean One/Ku'gath - Nurgle Daemon units -20% recruitment cost and upkeep, Tzeentch Daemon units +20% recruitment cost and upkeep. Khorne and Slaanesh units remain uneffected.

    .Keeper of Secrets/N'kari - Slaanesh Daemon units -20% recruitment cost and upkeep, Khorne Daemon units +20% recruitment cost and upkeep. Nurgle and Tzeentch units remain uneffected.

    Daemon Princes - No bonuses or penalties encouraging a mix of units from all four gods.
    "Fear me for I am Grey Seer Thanqol, Greatest TWW player in all of Skavendom."

    Team Skaven

    Which team are you? Post in your signature

    Team Empire Team Bretonnia Team Kislev Team Dwarf Team Chaos Dwarf Team High Elves
    Team Dark Elves
    Team Wood Elves Team Warriors of Chaos Team Daemons of Chaos
    Team Beastmen
    Team Vampire Counts Team Tomb Kings Team Orcs and Goblins
    Team Ogre Kingdoms
    Team Lizardmen Team Skaven




  • makar55makar55 Posts: 1,426Registered Users

    makar55 said:

    I don't see Greater Demons as being OP or "too weak" they should simply be made the same way Kholek, Durthu, or one of the Ogre LL's are. Powerful yet with high upkeep and balanced. They can be on par with those sorts of lords, or lords with big mounts.

    B O R I N G
    Wrong :).
    No you
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,465Registered Users
    Thing is LL's can already become god like in their power. Another thing is we don't want boring LL's. So there needs to be a degree of balance to allow them to be over the top, but not so ridiculously powerful they're boring.

    @makar55 I'm not interested. Either discuss the points or don't.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • ChronoidChronoid Posts: 27Registered Users
    Thanquol said:

    (sorry to bring up mono vs unified but it is an important aspect of how I see the lords working. Suffice to say I'm going under the presumption of a unified roster, I'll leave it at that)

    I'd probably expect Daemons of Chaos lords to be the Greater Daemons and the LL's the more quirky named versions of them (Skarbrand,Kairos Fateweaver,Ku'gath Plaguefather,
    N'kari) With two of the LL's arriving as DLC, one free and one paid going by the model of TWW2. I can see the Daemon princes being added in the paid DLC pack that comes with the RoR and extra LL.

    On the battlefield, I feel we've got a good look what one of them will look like in the form of Sarthorael the Everwatcher and I expect the base Greater Daemons to be about this power level, but with each having there own focuses in the stat line. I see Bloodthirsters having huge weapon damage and Magic resistance, the Great Unclean One with the largest HP of the four and physical resist, but is the slowest moving, the Lord of Change being pretty middle of the road stats wise of the four, with its character abilities being bound spells and winds of magic manipulators, alongside that huge missile resistance we see on the Everwatcher. The keeper of Secrets I see being the most squishy (lowest HP and armour with worst resistances) and lowest weapon damage, but it's weapon damage being very high percentage armour peircing making it second best in melee to the Bloodthirster. I also see it having the highest Melee attack stat of the four and being the fastest moving making it a giant sized hit and run style assassin.

    Magic wise I expect each base greater Daemon to come with two lores variations:

    Bloodthirster - none but has high magic resistance
    Lord of Change - Lore of Metal or Lore of Tzeentch
    Great Unclean One - Lore of Death or Lore of Nurgle
    Keeper of Secrets - Lore of Shadows or Lore of Slaanesh
    Daemon Prince - Mix of Lore of Death and Lore of Shadows or Metal
    Skarbrand - Same as Bloodthirster
    Kairos Fateweaver - A mix of multiple lores much like the HE Loremaster of Hoeth with a couple bound Lore of Tzeench spells.
    Ku'gath Plaguefather - Lore of Nurgle
    N'kari - Mix of Lore of Shadows and Lore of Slaanesh

    In campaign I can see a faction mechanic tied to the the Lords of your armies with Lords recieving a reduction to recruitment and upkeep for units of the same alignment, and increased costs for those of rival alignment within their armies. The skill tree could potentially feature skills that increase this effect either by making the cost of aligned units straight up cheaper or doing so whilst making rival aligned units even more expensive.

    A rough example:

    .Bloodthirster/Skarbrand - Khorne Daemon units -20% recruitment cost and upkeep, Slaanesh Daemon units +20% recruitment cost and upkeep. Nurgle and Tzeentch units remain uneffected.

    .Lord of Change/Kairos - Tzeentch Daemon units -20% recruitment cost and upkeep, Nurgle Daemon units +20% recruitment cost and upkeep. Khorne and Slaanesh units remain uneffected.

    .Great Unclean One/Ku'gath - Nurgle Daemon units -20% recruitment cost and upkeep, Tzeentch Daemon units +20% recruitment cost and upkeep. Khorne and Slaanesh units remain uneffected.

    .Keeper of Secrets/N'kari - Slaanesh Daemon units -20% recruitment cost and upkeep, Khorne Daemon units +20% recruitment cost and upkeep. Nurgle and Tzeentch units remain uneffected.

    Daemon Princes - No bonuses or penalties encouraging a mix of units from all four gods.

    This.
    It would reward having monogod armies without needing four factions dedicated to it or sacrificing the posibility of mixed armies.

    Although, for those saying Princes can only be in Monogods, I also think that Daemon Princes could be also inplemented not as a Lord, but as a Tier5 unit. Just have it be the winged wariant (since, for what we've seen with Everchicken, Lords of change and Bloodthirster probably won't be true flyers). Furies would serve as something between Fell Bats and Vargheists and the Prince could be the Terrorgheist meanest equivalent, Basically giving you a unit comparable to your lord that can also fly (obviously, being adequately expensive).

    I don't remember if it was also the case in Fantasy, but in 40k, if you had a greater daemon as HQ, you could take Princes as Heavy Support, so I kinda took the inspiration from that.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Posts: 1,530Registered Users
    The Lord of Change already in the game isn't really as powerful as you'd expect given how ridiculously powerful Greater Daemons were in the tabletop game.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 2,059Registered Users

    Goatforce said:

    Uh, no greater daemons as heroes or units plz.

    They could be locked behind mechanics like rites or blood kisses if they're THAT powerful. In that case, just have generic DPs/buff heralds as generic lord choices. Or just balance them along the existing monstrous lords?

    I love Chaos but the whole "every greater daemon must be the biggest most bestest lord ever" thing is overstated. TT, like TW, has never reflected lore. Make the generic ones on the same tier as dragon lords or treemen and that's fine, with the LL ones being buff monsters like Kholek, Durthu, or Everchicken.

    And even in lore for every "NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY EVER MATCH A LORD OF CHANGE NEVER EVER" there's a "And then Lord Aelfarion Genericus heroically slew the bloodthirster, at the cost of his heroic dragon Draconia.

    Except lorewise only things like Star Dragons or their equivalent (very powrful Shaggoths, Treeman Ancients etc) can go toe to toe with generic Greater Daemons, even most of the most powerful LLs would struggle against them, usually only the most insane casters being able to take several on. Anaerion did well against them but he had a particularly powerful dragon and the Sword of Khaine.

    In TT I believe GW ran a "tournament" pitting the named characters against each other, and included a Bloodthirster.... The Bloodthirster won. Not saying they should be unstoppable uberbeasts, but they should be up there with characters like Kholek, and LLs like Skarbrand should be able to 1v1 pretty much anything fairly convincingly. Also in TT I am pretty sure they can be taken as a lord (may be wrong).

    I do think their campaign will have some sort of "binding" or "materialisation" gimmick, in which they may be weakened in regions with low Winds of Magic - with Greater Daemons suffering a lot as they struggle to maintain their presence in the world.
    Yeah. A bloodthirster. The dudes who sacrifice EVERY BIT OF UTILITY for combat stats.

    They can work alongside your Durthus and Kholeks and Star Dragon Princes. Because "me am can punch goodly" is their one, only benefit.

    They'll also handily beat up the either Greater Daemons, but they're probably the least useful one overall.

    Also, yeah, they can... only be a lord? Which is what I said?
    Ah, it seems I misread you as saying "no, Greater Daemons as units or Heroes", hence my statement, my apologies. Still, with the trend of lord specific stuff being put into rosters - dragons were only a mount in TT but can be taken as an independant unit by all factions that can field them except VC and WoC for example - I can see them putting a Lord and Hero variant.
  • grifkgrifk Posts: 7Registered Users
    About the balance problem of generic greater deamons being recruitable compared to generic lords of other faction, what could be done is to implemant an "upgrade" mechanic:

    For instance you recruit a khorne general lvl 1. It is a generic chaos lord (with maybe some khorne related bonus), but he has a lvl 20 skill which transforms him into a bloodthirster, like other lords get a giant mount. The difference would be that the model changes and that the "mount" is irreversible.

    This way, every army can be lead by a greater deamon who is not weak compared to what they should be, but who is not overpowered right from the start either.

Sign In or Register to comment.