Rampage idea: Armies led by Slann are immune

Nielspeterdejong

I noticed a few bringing this up, and I like the idea behind it. In the lore the Slann were pretty much seen as gods, second only to the Old Ones. Lizardmen that were led by them would fight with focused Zealotry, while those without their leadership eventually descended into savagery.

A more thorough idea would be to give different implementation between lord types, so something like this:

Slann Lord (Including Mazdamundi): Slann Lords will give your army Mapwide Resistance to Rampage (less likely to proc), as well as give them Frenzy. This so symbolize their Zealous devotion to their Slann Lords, and also give you a different reason to use Cold Blooded, namely to keep your units their Leadership high enough to benefit from Frenzy.

Oldblood Lord (Including Kroq'Gar): Your Lord would give your army a Mapwide boon that triggers once your units start rampaging. This would grant them a +27 to Melee Attack in addition to their increased attack speed (I believe their attack speed is significantly increased while rampaging?) while they are rampaging.

This would grant the Lizardmen a number of things they have been lacking, especially seeing as they are now underperforming. On one hand you'd have the more disciplined and Zealous Armies led by Slann Mage Priests, and on the other hand you'd have the more Feral and bloodthirsty Oldblood led armies.

The Slann would still need some love, as they are a slow and easy mountless target who are supposed to be the #1 spell casters around. Perhaps their Shield of the Old Ones could also block all projectiles (both enemy and friendly) as well, while having a lower Cooldown. And Perhaps Slann at a higher level could gain a Skill that lowers the Cooldown and cost (1 or 2 Winds of Magic, even less for overcast, depending on the spell) of all of their spells? While giving the General Slann Mage Priest the Higher State of conciousness skill, and Arkhan the Black his old Healing (and ressurecting) aura, at level 20 at the end of their top 2 skill trees? Thoughts?

EDIT: Removed the Replenishment, because Rampage increases your attack speed (If it does not increase attack speed, then I'd recomment giving them Replenishment while in combat).

#28957

Kroxigors also shouldn't rampage with Skinks around.

Tennisgolfboll#5877

Just remove rampage from all troops.

Only keep it for monsters

Boombastek91

Lol when rampage hunger and +27 attack.
Bro i got, you fan of LM but think about other ppl too.

MrMecH

All Skinks should have passive ability to cancel rampage effect nearby.

hanen

Boombastek91 said:

Lol when rampage hunger and +27 attack.
Bro i got, you fan of LM but think about other ppl too.

+27 MA and -27 MD during rampage in that case.

Pocman#6295

This is similar to an idea I had, an it makes a lot of sense.

My idea was giving certain certain lords and heroes abilities that make other units immune to rampage.

For example, scar vets/oldbloods and dreadlords riding cold ones would provide a "rampage immunity aura" to the cold one units around them. The reasoning is that the hero/lord's cold one would act as the pack leader.

When I imagined this I was thinking about Malus Darkblade (a shame that he hasn't been included instead of Lokhir), because he had exactly that rule in TT he made cold ones in his unit immune to stupidity.

Same can be said about kroxigors and skink lords/heros. In lore, Kroxigors are like robots controlled by the Skinks, and fight in combined units with them. Therefore, making them immune to Rampage while under their effects makes sense.

In campaign, this should in some cases apply to the whole army (for example, is a good idea for Slann's which don't seem powerful and unique enough as they are now).

Boombastek91

I never see a problem with saurus rampage. And I play only Legendary/VH. Rampage increase attack speed, only cos of that carnosaur so strong. Now cold one too can rampage same as DE but with increased attack def and dmg, they are became stronger.

Canuovea#6291

I do not believe Rampage increases attack speed, but I could be wrong.

Nielspeterdejong

If Rampage increases attack speed then that would be truly amazing! Then they would not need the Replenishment.

Sargas

Nielspeterdejong said:

I noticed a few bringing this up, and I like the idea behind it. In the lore the Slann were pretty much seen as gods, second only to the Old Ones. Lizardmen that were led by them would fight with focused Zealotry, while those without their leadership eventually descended into savagery.

A more thorough idea would be to give different implementation between lord types, so something like this:

Slann Lord (Including Mazdamundi): Slann Lords will give your army Mapwide Resistance to Rampage (less likely to proc), as well as give them Frenzy. This so symbolize their Zealous devotion to their Slann Lords, and also give you a different reason to use Cold Blooded, namely to keep your units their Leadership high enough to benefit from Frenzy.

Oldblood Lord (Including Kroq'Gar): Your Lord would give your army a Mapwide boon that triggers once your units start rampaging. This would grant them a +27 to Melee Attack in addition to their increased attack speed (I believe their attack speed is significantly increased while rampaging?) while they are rampaging.

This would grant the Lizardmen a number of things they have been lacking, especially seeing as they are now underperforming. On one hand you'd have the more disciplined and Zealous Armies led by Slann Mage Priests, and on the other hand you'd have the more Feral and bloodthirsty Oldblood led armies.

The Slann would still need some love, as they are a slow and easy mountless target who are supposed to be the #1 spell casters around. Perhaps their Shield of the Old Ones could also block all projectiles (both enemy and friendly) as well, while having a lower Cooldown. And Perhaps Slann at a higher level could gain a Skill that lowers the Cooldown and cost (1 or 2 Winds of Magic, even less for overcast, depending on the spell) of all of their spells? While giving the General Slann Mage Priest the Higher State of conciousness skill, and Arkhan the Black his old Healing (and ressurecting) aura, at level 20 at the end of their top 2 skill trees? Thoughts?

EDIT: Removed the Replenishment, because Rampage increases your attack speed (If it does not increase attack speed, then I'd recomment giving them Replenishment while in combat).

It's good idea, this rampage rule has to change.Doesn't match with board game lizardmen.

Nielspeterdejong

Also, about Coldblooded, perhaps we could add something that would allow you to save your newly Rampaging cavalry? Perhaps in addition to removing Rampage, and giving +16 Leadership, how about giving the target +10% speed and improved Vigor? Otherwise you can cast it all you want, they will still be stuck if they are in a unfavorable situation.

Canuovea#6291

If Rampage worked like the table top, which is not a standard that should be applied to Total War in all cases I add, then you'd have saurus running on after routing units rather than turning around to fight that unit you want them to fight. Furthermore, they'd never actually catch those routing units because saurus are pretty slow.

No, I like the current implementation of Rampage more than a straight copy of the table top. That does not mean Rampage shouldn't be mitigated somehow... which it is, technically, with the new Cold Blooded. I remain uncertain about the effectiveness of this, but certainly Slaan should have more usages of it and a longer range (if you even need range for it at all!). Personally, I'd like a similar mechanic with a Beastmaster hero for the Dark Elves.

Nielspeterdejong

Canuovea said:

If Rampage worked like the table top, which is not a standard that should be applied to Total War in all cases I add, then you'd have saurus running on after routing units rather than turning around to fight that unit you want them to fight. Furthermore, they'd never actually catch those routing units because saurus are pretty slow.

No, I like the current implementation of Rampage more than a straight copy of the table top. That does not mean Rampage shouldn't be mitigated somehow... which it is, technically, with the new Cold Blooded. I remain uncertain about the effectiveness of this, but certainly Slaan should have more usages of it and a longer range (if you even need range for it at all!). Personally, I'd like a similar mechanic with a Beastmaster hero for the Dark Elves.

Well I like the idea of the Lizardmen becoming more Feral without the presence of the Slann (See the lore about the Dragon isles in the South Lands). So I like the idea of keeping it like this, but giving the Slann a mapwide buff that gives your army resistance against rampaging. While also giving Frenzy, so you can still micro manage with your Cold blooded, as you want to keep your units leadership above 50%

Nielspeterdejong

What do you guys think about giving Coldblooded an additional Vigor and speed boost? To help units get out of sticky situations more easily.

Canuovea#6291

It seems a bit counter-intuitive to make something move faster by using an ability called "Cold Blooded", but I would not be against a vigour boost for it. Though the leadership buff isn't horrid as it stands.

I agree, though, that the Slaan should have some kind of effect on rampage.

steam_165171714789pPAEKOH

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/228257/how-to-fix-lizardmen-and-rampage/p1

Canuovea said:

If Rampage worked like the table top, which is not a standard that should be applied to Total War in all cases I add, then you'd have saurus running on after routing units rather than turning around to fight that unit you want them to fight. Furthermore, they'd never actually catch those routing units because saurus are pretty slow.

No, I like the current implementation of Rampage more than a straight copy of the table top. That does not mean Rampage shouldn't be mitigated somehow... which it is, technically, with the new Cold Blooded. I remain uncertain about the effectiveness of this, but certainly Slaan should have more usages of it and a longer range (if you even need range for it at all!). Personally, I'd like a similar mechanic with a Beastmaster hero for the Dark Elves.

Saying that the current bad system is better than a worse new system is hardly a recommendation for the current system. I prefer being whipped to having my arm cut off, hardly means I want the whipping to continue.

Playing lizardmen means that on average you are only controlling half your army. The entire point of this game is to control your units in a battle. Would you play an FPS game where you had direct control 50% of the time and the other 50% you just watched the screen while the game shot people for you?

The utter ridiculous of this concept as a game design is lost on me. We aren't even talking about unit balance at this point. We are speaking about generic video game design. It's a Game Design 101 lesson that you do not remove control from the player. The entire point of playing a game is that you are playing it, not watching it passively. I highly doubt a loss of control mechanic would be okay with people if every army suffered from losing control of half their entire armies and they could only manually control their elite units and generals.

There are plenty of ways to make lizardmen different without taking control away. The link above lists two methods but there are certainly more. This is a failed mechanic and CA should simply own up to it and move on with something else, instead of trying to salvage their bad idea.

Canuovea#6291

endikux said:

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/228257/how-to-fix-lizardmen-and-rampage/p1

Canuovea said:

If Rampage worked like the table top, which is not a standard that should be applied to Total War in all cases I add, then you'd have saurus running on after routing units rather than turning around to fight that unit you want them to fight. Furthermore, they'd never actually catch those routing units because saurus are pretty slow.

No, I like the current implementation of Rampage more than a straight copy of the table top. That does not mean Rampage shouldn't be mitigated somehow... which it is, technically, with the new Cold Blooded. I remain uncertain about the effectiveness of this, but certainly Slaan should have more usages of it and a longer range (if you even need range for it at all!). Personally, I'd like a similar mechanic with a Beastmaster hero for the Dark Elves.

Saying that the current bad system is better than a worse new system is hardly a recommendation for the current system. I prefer being whipped to having my arm cut off, hardly means I want the whipping to continue.

Playing lizardmen means that on average you are only controlling half your army. The entire point of this game is to control your units in a battle. Would you play an FPS game where you had direct control 50% of the time and the other 50% you just watched the screen while the game shot people for you?

The utter ridiculous of this concept as a game design is lost on me. We aren't even talking about unit balance at this point. We are speaking about generic video game design. It's a Game Design 101 lesson that you do not remove control from the player. The entire point of playing a game is that you are playing it, not watching it passively. I highly doubt a loss of control mechanic would be okay with people if every army suffered from losing control of half their entire armies and they could only manually control their elite units and generals.

There are plenty of ways to make lizardmen different without taking control away. The link above lists two methods but there are certainly more. This is a failed mechanic and CA should simply own up to it and move on with something else, instead of trying to salvage their bad idea.

I was responding to someone commenting that Rampage isn't accurate to the Table Top. It isn't, but it would be worse if it was.

That being said, past Total War games did have units that you lost control of. Charge without orders, elephants, it just has been expanded here. I am honestly not bothered by this too much so long as we have a way to mitigate Rampage, and so maintain control of units in situations that matter. And we do have something like this currently.

MakoTheMako

All Skinks units should have an aura that removes Rampage, and a Slann lord should remove it for the whole army. No single-target active ability garbage.