How do you use guns effectively

pdc4930#3270

I have been trying to beat the final battle for the vampire coast campaign and been trying to beat it.
I have noticed that my handgunners haven't been getting too many kills in the battle as well as the campaign overall. in my last battle the black spot only got 27 kills (and being the highest). my Artillery play is on point, but I think my handguns are getting obstructed too much. any tips?

SolidJames

Specifically for the final battle? I would put them all in a line facing the DE army don't stand any units in front as they will stop them from firing as effectively. place your melee units to the side of them and only engage them if any enemy stacks get too close you should also get all the range buffs for them you can from research so they can pew pew from further away. When I did it as Harkon I had 8 handgun mobs and they tore through everything, I did have all the range and damage buffs possible on them though and a gunnery wight buffing their reload speed and ammo.

After you survive the DE army have your melee squads position themselves at the sides to soak the zombie mobs and have your gunners in the centre still but move some to each side to shoot at enemies that come in focus bloated corpses and anything big like necrofex and leviathans. Make sure to utilise the reinforcements that come in from behind but DO NOT use the bloated corpses just leave them where they are.

If you survive the onslaught of undead (I found taking out all the big scary stuff asap made everything crumble it was weird I had zombie stacks coming into the area then immediately evaporating might be something weird unique to my battle but give it a go you need to focus them anyway) then another DE army comes in from behind remember those bloated corpses you left there? well GG you won haha clean up whats left of the enemy army enjoy your victory. Hope this helps.

Warlocke

I would put them all in a line facing the DE army don't stand any units in front as they will stop them from firing as effectively. place your melee units to the side of them

Don't do this.

From reddit:

SolidJames

@Warlocke Wow nice pictures shame it doesn't actually provide any information on the actual fight in question still some of these are usable my strat is too since I use it all the time and it works just as well so to each their own I guess.

Steppelord

Give them to a dwarf and he'll show you how to shoot.

luther84695

SolidJames said:

@Warlocke Wow nice pictures shame it doesn't actually provide any information on the actual fight in question still some of these are usable my strat is too since I use it all the time and it works just as well so to each their own I guess.

It's not too hard. You need to create line of sight since they shoot straight. I personally don't rely on formations. I rely on positioning of the guns in conjunction with the position of the melee troops. In other words, I move both the gunners to get line of sight as well as moving the troops that are already engaged in melee to open up line of fire.

FifthOfSpaghetti

Someone posted a picture of a great tactic that I’ve adopted. Pardon I don’t have the image he provided but allow me to show you some text-fu


I__I__I__I

Basically grab some melee zombies, I like the antilarge armorpiercing ones. And put them in spaghetti lines spaced apart with your hand gunners in between the spaces at the end. The AI blobs up on the tips of your mighty spaghetti and your guns pillage their booty. You can do your gun line however you like but I recommend 4-5 hand guns and fill infantry as needed. You then support with Lore of the deeps, artillery and Depth Guard. The only battles I’ve lost with this tactic are battles where my enemy also has a lot of long range artillery and pick me off from across the map.

AENARlON

I assume that by 'obstructed' OP means there is terrain in the way. Doesn't need to be anything dramatic, even slightly uneven ground can be enough to mean they can't hit that unit right in front of them. Chequerboard or chevron formations won't help with that.

It's a basic disadvantage of handgunners in any faction that means I rarely use them. Yes, they outperform archers in optimal conditions, maybe even in average conditions. But I prefer to have units that always somewhat perform than ones that sometimes do great and sometimes do almost nothing.

Not saying you're wrong if you use them, so please don't waste your time flaming me. Just saying I don't personally find them very useful.

Rolf1989

rymeintrinseca said:

I assume that by 'obstructed' OP means there is terrain in the way. Doesn't need to be anything dramatic, even slightly uneven ground can be enough to mean they can't hit that unit right in front of them. Chequerboard or chevron formations won't help with that.

It's a basic disadvantage of handgunners in any faction that means I rarely use them. Yes, they outperform archers in optimal conditions, maybe even in average conditions. But I prefer to have units that always somewhat perform than ones that sometimes do great and sometimes do almost nothing.

Not saying you're wrong if you use them, so please don't waste your time flaming me. Just saying I don't personally find them very useful.

I often **** up line of sight with my handgunners, so I see where you are coming from. But when you have to kill Chosen, kill dragons and kill monsters, handgunners are essential.

pdc4930#3270

I think Another thing which lead to my defeat was using too many lower rank units. I had level 3 depth guard polearms and got wiped to 8 models very quickly.I think I'll swap out them for the regular depth guard that was level 6.

for the clossi on the other hand went from level 1 to level 4 in the match. might recuit one more to replace a level 7 cannon.

Also since infamy doesn't matter anymore, I use the rites and province affects to indle level some of my units more.

psychoak

Depth guard front lines are... bad.

They're too squishy against elite units to last very long, it's actually better in most cases to use regular zombies.

The regular ones are a massacre waiting to happen. The low model count gives them poor real estate coverage to begin with, their comparative health disadvantage, and no shield, means they die like flies to AP ranged units. Even in melee, their poor melee defense and small unit count means that they take a very high level of damage from AP infantry. You really don't even need stuff like swordmasters to cause serious problems, Empire halberds will make a mess of them just fine.

The polearm version will hold up a lot longer in melee, but still, no shield. The only thing keeping these guys around is their armor, any AP ranged units are just going to melt them, and non AP will still be doing horrifying damage to them. Zombies, by comparison, take up a lot more room, and have far more hit points. They die in droves, but there are a lot of them to kill.

They're great units, but they're units for killing things off fast. If you're going to block for a gun line, you want something durable. Zombies have raw numbers, and syreens have massive physical resist, either are a superior option. Depth guard only work particularly well in combination behind a second unit, preferably rotting prometheans they can more easily gap fill from behind monstrous units. Rotting prometheans also require care though, they're only slightly more durable against ranged fire.

Helhound#7332

psychoak said:

Depth guard front lines are... bad.

They're too squishy against elite units to last very long, it's actually better in most cases to use regular zombies.

The regular ones are a massacre waiting to happen. The low model count gives them poor real estate coverage to begin with, their comparative health disadvantage, and no shield, means they die like flies to AP ranged units. Even in melee, their poor melee defense and small unit count means that they take a very high level of damage from AP infantry. You really don't even need stuff like swordmasters to cause serious problems, Empire halberds will make a mess of them just fine.

The polearm version will hold up a lot longer in melee, but still, no shield. The only thing keeping these guys around is their armor, any AP ranged units are just going to melt them, and non AP will still be doing horrifying damage to them. Zombies, by comparison, take up a lot more room, and have far more hit points. They die in droves, but there are a lot of them to kill.

They're great units, but they're units for killing things off fast. If you're going to block for a gun line, you want something durable. Zombies have raw numbers, and syreens have massive physical resist, either are a superior option. Depth guard only work particularly well in combination behind a second unit, preferably rotting prometheans they can more easily gap fill from behind monstrous units. Rotting prometheans also require care though, they're only slightly more durable against ranged fire.

Or Prometheans.

Prometheans also have the advantage of being able to be shot around and sometimes through. Plus depth guard filter in quite nicely without obstructing either unit.

But otherwise yea. Keep depth guard the hell outta the line of fire.

Sephlock

You can do all of that complicated stuff, or you can just arrange them in a rough V shape, send some tough low model count units into the middle of the v to attract attention, and dakka down everything but Lizardmen or Dwarfs (and sometimes even them.

DecayWolf#7061

Don't forget that syreens has that -9 MA, which works great as a synergy to your line holders.

pdc4930#3270

I managed to beat the final battle. Swapped out my zombie gunnery mobs with handguns with Deck Droppers with handguns. performed much better. Also added two more clossi. despite that, moved the battle difficulty to normal instead of hard (which I i had on most of the campaign) after two tries on hard with setup. Went from a nearly impossible fight to a trivial fight.

pdc4930#3270

psychoak said:

Depth guard front lines are... bad.

They're too squishy against elite units to last very long, it's actually better in most cases to use regular zombies.

The regular ones are a massacre waiting to happen. The low model count gives them poor real estate coverage to begin with, their comparative health disadvantage, and no shield, means they die like flies to AP ranged units. Even in melee, their poor melee defense and small unit count means that they take a very high level of damage from AP infantry. You really don't even need stuff like swordmasters to cause serious problems, Empire halberds will make a mess of them just fine.

The polearm version will hold up a lot longer in melee, but still, no shield. The only thing keeping these guys around is their armor, any AP ranged units are just going to melt them, and non AP will still be doing horrifying damage to them. Zombies, by comparison, take up a lot more room, and have far more hit points. They die in droves, but there are a lot of them to kill.

They're great units, but they're units for killing things off fast. If you're going to block for a gun line, you want something durable. Zombies have raw numbers, and syreens have massive physical resist, either are a superior option. Depth guard only work particularly well in combination behind a second unit, preferably rotting prometheans they can more easily gap fill from behind monstrous units. Rotting prometheans also require care though, they're only slightly more durable against ranged fire.

For this battle they performed admirably against corsairs and Zombie polearms. ended up bringing the polearm variant only and relied on AI spawns for regular versions. kept them away from black guard and bloated corpses while blasting those units with guns.