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reminder to CA that Gor-Rok is the perfect candidate for Itza's LL

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  • TWforumUN1989TWforumUN1989 Registered Users Posts: 221
    edited October 2019
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    Post edited by TWforumUN1989 on
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,149

    GN93 said:

    Fossoway said:

    I'd much rather have Kroak or Tetto'eko, at least they'd bring something new. And as much as Nakai is awesome, he's still just a Kroxigor and NOT a leader, even less a general. Putting him in charge of an army makes no sense.

    Grombrindal called, he says this doesn't matter.
    Grombrindal is a different race entirely. A race actually capable of intelligent thoughts and being able to communicate. Not to mention, he is most likely the previous Dwarf King: Snorri Whitebeard. So he has prior knowledge of being in a position of command.
    Doesn't change that in the lore the White Dwarf doesn't lead armies. And you can say that about several other LLs that CA has chosen.

    I'm not saying CA will choose Nakai, I doubt they will, but the idea of using that as a reason it can't happen doesn't make sense when CA has already released lords that didn't/couldn't lead in the tabletop as LLs in this game.

    That's just one of the many reasons that go against the inclusion of Nakai.
    I go by the assumption that Itza will be the FLC faction, while Tehenhauin will lead a brand new faction (Cult of Sotek / Red Host).

    So going by this assumption, when it comes to Itza we have on one hand Gor-Rok that: is from Itza, is his most prominent and active protector, is known to actually lead and command armies in the fluff, is a 7th and 8th edition character with a full page of lore, has a TT model, TT rules and TT items.

    Then we have Nakai, who other than being a "Green Knight" character that randomly appears and disappears and doesn't lead armies in the fluff at all, is also a Kroxigor (so is essentially a giant dumb brute even if he's from the First spawning), has literally a single small paragraph worth of lore published in both 7th and 8th edition armylists (and another footnote level name drop in the Lustria expansion book), and has never had any presence whatsoever on the TT (no model, no rules, no items, no nothing).
    It's funny cause Nakai is suddenly now more relevant than he could ever even remotely dream of during the TT era. He got name dropped once in some initial speculation thread, and now he's suddenly a really iconic lord of the LM (i'm not referring to you ofc).

    To me, if we're talking about Itza, the choice is one: Gor-Rok, and Kroak as a unique and overpowered Rite or Mechanic (and this is the only single way CA can get away with properly portraying Kroak and the whole point of his character in the lore).

  • Warlord_Lu_BuWarlord_Lu_Bu Registered Users Posts: 2,779
    Would very much like Gor'Rok... Lizardmen need a very powerful infantry leader.
    "I am the punishment of Tengri, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chenghis Khan Temujin
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,616
    GN93 said:

    4uk4ata said:

    I'm hoping for Nakai as the FLC, frankly, as I think a named, big-ass Kroxigor half-covered in treasure would look incredible.

    Agreed. Give him Albion as a starting location and I'm set.
    Nakai is probably the worst possible choice for a Legendary Lord.

    1. He is a Kroxigor, they are far too simple-minded to ever be in a position of command. I don't think they're even capable of communication. They simply did not lead armies.
    2. He is not an always-present character. He appears and disappears from the jungle. His entire character is a mysterious wanderer that shows up randomly. It would be totally conflicting having him commanding and capturing settlements.
    3. He is a very minor character, he never even had his own Table-Top model, that should be a clear indicator of how unimportant he is.
    4. People only want him because he's a Kroxigor and that is such a weak reason to shoe-horn him into a role he doesn't fit in.
    5. Albion would be a awful Lizardmen start location. The climate is a 'uninhabitable climate' and you would be stuck in the corner of the map capturing little Norscan settlements with nowhere to expand. We also already have Kroq-Gar stuck in the corner, that role is already filled. We do not need another. We don't even have a proper Lustrian start position yet.
    ^^None of those are valid reasons to rule out Nakai...as CA has violated basically all of them.

    1. Simple-minded brutes have already been implemented as LL's; Throgg for example.

    2. That's exactly what Grombrindal is too...but he got implemented as well.

    3. Minor characters w/out TT models and/or wholly original characters are fair game and have been for awhile. It's much more about gameplay. And frankly, a LL whose buffs would make Kroxigors viable would add much more diverse gameplay than a lord who makes Saurus....even more viable?

    4. ^^Kinda related to #3. I think him being a Kroxigor is somewhat appealing, but the bigger appeal is being able to have viable Kroxigor themed armies across the faction...which is something currently hard to do.

    5. Whole-heartedly disagree here. LL's have been given different climate preferences to make certain starting positions viable basically constantly! AND, whether it's Nakai, or Gor-Rok, or anybody else....I DO NOT want them starting in Lustria....especially if Tehenhauin already starts there. 3 Lizardmen start positions in Lustria would be kind of bland. Regardless of who they do, I honesty hope they are on a far flung corner of the map such as Albion.

    Not saying that's it's Nakai or bust for me. I'm most excited for Tehenhauin, and will probably be happy who whoever else it is. I just don't feel like your reasons for excluding Nakai are good arguments considering CA's previous lord choices and implementation.
  • TWforumUN1989TWforumUN1989 Registered Users Posts: 221
    edited October 2019
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    Post edited by TWforumUN1989 on
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,377
    Mazadundi in the Isthmus of Lustria, Kroak in the Heart of the Continent, Kroq-Gar in the Southlands, Tehennhauin somewhere in the jungle killing Skaven, and PLEASE put Gor-Rok in Albion. I don't want to just fight Skaven in jungles, and it would be nice to have a LM campaign where all the Old World factions are literally as far away from you as possible.
  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 4,753
    I'm still of the mindset Gor-Rok should count as large. Function just like Throgg with a similar stat line health and all. One massive AP beat stick. But where Throgg is a bunch of offense and troll buffs, Gor-Rok is primarily defense, charge defense against all, and a bunch of Saurus buffs.

    And before you claim that Kroq-Gar already buffs Saurus, no he does not. He makes them cheaper, a feature shared with the now more dangerous Lizard Cav. He buffs your dinosaurs armor. Kroq-Gar is a monster mash lord, both to his army and himself. Gor-Rok would be the Saurus lord, acting as the scaled anchor the whole line rotates around.
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,238
    Gor-rok as the Itza LL;

    Kroak as a special unit/hero summonable through the rite.


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 28,978
    Nakai FTW!

    He's a Kroxigor so that gives us a Skink, Saurus, Slann, and Kroxigor LL. Gor Rok would also always be second to Kroq. Better to have a more unique LL.
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  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    edited November 2018

    I'm still of the mindset Gor-Rok should count as large. Function just like Throgg with a similar stat line health and all. One massive AP beat stick. But where Throgg is a bunch of offense and troll buffs, Gor-Rok is primarily defense, charge defense against all, and a bunch of Saurus buffs.

    And before you claim that Kroq-Gar already buffs Saurus, no he does not. He makes them cheaper, a feature shared with the now more dangerous Lizard Cav. He buffs your dinosaurs armor. Kroq-Gar is a monster mash lord, both to his army and himself. Gor-Rok would be the Saurus lord, acting as the scaled anchor the whole line rotates around.

    Well kroq gar buf whole army vs specific enemy, a like thorgrim, or reverse whatever.
    I agree made Kroxigores useful it need, same were to black ark corsairs, they were very unpopular. Cos for now Kroxigores t4 very fragil units (fragil for t4) better just use feral stegadon he t3.
    But i dislike moment Nakai may take place of gor-rok.
    If Nakai + gor-rok would awesome.
    But i predict tehenauin + one of them.
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,238
    Kroxigors are T3.


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    edited November 2018
    Enforest said:

    Kroxigors are T3.

    Is armory t3 building? I guess t4 my bad
    Nono it imposible, horned ones 100% requir armory and they are t4 too
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,964
    Honestly, I'm inclined to agree with the 'what's so special about Gor-Rok' viewpoint.

    Intuitively, the most different Lizardmen special character, from a tactical viewpoint, is probably Tiktaq'to. He offers a flying Lord, and can offer bonuses to Terradons and Ripperdactyls (or, if CA pulls an Alith Anar, Ripperdactyl Braves...) and could offer bonuses to ambushes and certain hero actions, emphasising a sneakier playstyle.

    Kroak and Tetto'ekko both have potential from a mechanics viewpoint. Kroak could have a mechanic where the player is actually Ten-Zlati, working to steadily restore Lord Kroak to full consciousness. Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    Draxynnic said:

    Honestly, I'm inclined to agree with the 'what's so special about Gor-Rok' viewpoint.

    Intuitively, the most different Lizardmen special character, from a tactical viewpoint, is probably Tiktaq'to. He offers a flying Lord, and can offer bonuses to Terradons and Ripperdactyls (or, if CA pulls an Alith Anar, Ripperdactyl Braves...) and could offer bonuses to ambushes and certain hero actions, emphasising a sneakier playstyle.

    Kroak and Tetto'ekko both have potential from a mechanics viewpoint. Kroak could have a mechanic where the player is actually Ten-Zlati, working to steadily restore Lord Kroak to full consciousness. Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    How much terradont you had in army? Not more than 2 with bola, Lord Kroak had 1 spell only.
    There already lord stance that increase vision on 150%, what he gonna prognosticate? Buff skink priest, with more winds magic, how it working astronomy and winds of magic?
  • TWforumUN1989TWforumUN1989 Registered Users Posts: 221
    edited October 2019
    -
    Post edited by TWforumUN1989 on
  • adjungadjung Registered Users Posts: 303

    I cant help but want Kroak despite him being a glorified grail reliquae.

    I could picture him become a unique super unit/summon like Queen Bess


    Forward onto Slaughter.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 884
    edited November 2018

    And Kroak as a LL? Sure if you want to completely ruin his fluff and miss the point of his character in the lizardmen lore. "Inventing" him again in order to make him an incredibly dumbed down version of himself for balance reasons, having him casually chat in diplomacy with other random faction leaders, would be such a disservice to the character.
    He's essentially a dead nuke the LM carry into battle in desperate times. He has one single spell and that's it: the Deliverance of Itza.

    Of course he shouldn't be talking with other factions in the diplomacy screen. He would A) be just sitting there and doing nothing or b) there should be a skink sitting in front of him doing the talking. It would actually be kind of funny if his model had said skink taking care of him too. Let's remember that Eben von Liebwitz isn't the actual boss (and thus only a battlefield/campaign map representative) of Whisenland too. Lorewise the actual leading/decision making would be done by a priest councel backstage. He would definetly offer room to implement at least a version of the temple guard and slann synergy mechanic, if CA repurposed the way pieces are maned for him. After all he is a floating mummy so making him a spellcasting artillery piece coming with its own unit of temple guard is actually kind of thematic, he can't fight in close combat himself anyway. It would also make him the first Lord with an entity count higher than one.
    His difference to other casters would be that he only had one spell, making up for all his shortcomings with the sheer power of it. Should probably the strongest spell in the game.
    The only things Lords do in TW:WH are marching at the front of an army emiting their leadership aura (Kroaks presence is enough to inspire his fellow LM) and represent their army on the campaign map. Both of that wouldn't violate Kroaks lore. There is no mechanic indicating that it has to be the Lord doing the actual leading.
    So: We want Piggalo I. as legendary Lord ;-)

    P.S. Not having to do voice lines for him would actually save CA some trouble.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,964

    Draxynnic said:

    Honestly, I'm inclined to agree with the 'what's so special about Gor-Rok' viewpoint.

    Intuitively, the most different Lizardmen special character, from a tactical viewpoint, is probably Tiktaq'to. He offers a flying Lord, and can offer bonuses to Terradons and Ripperdactyls (or, if CA pulls an Alith Anar, Ripperdactyl Braves...) and could offer bonuses to ambushes and certain hero actions, emphasising a sneakier playstyle.

    Kroak and Tetto'ekko both have potential from a mechanics viewpoint. Kroak could have a mechanic where the player is actually Ten-Zlati, working to steadily restore Lord Kroak to full consciousness. Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    How much terradont you had in army? Not more than 2 with bola, Lord Kroak had 1 spell only.
    There already lord stance that increase vision on 150%, what he gonna prognosticate? Buff skink priest, with more winds magic, how it working astronomy and winds of magic?
    How many Shadow Warriors would have have in a High Elf army that isn't led by Alith Anar? Tiktaq'to could also provide bonuses to some Skinks in general - he wasn't just a commander of air units in the fluff - but obviously he'd focus on the flyers. And having Ripperdactyls would probably make the Lizardmen air force more viable on the whole.

    Astrology could work in a number of ways, but the one that immediately comes to mind is having specific events that Tetto'ekko could interact with, similar to the Beastmen moon events, alhough they might not necessarily offer a choice. For instance, there could be auguries that favour one type of action over another, granting you bonuses if you follow that action and penalties if you follow another. For instance, one augury might foretell that it is favourable to take decisive action against your enemies, providing bonuses when attacking and penalties when defending. Another might foretell that it is time to make peace, making diplomatic actions more likely to be successful, but giving you penalties if you start new wars while under that sign.
    GN93 said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Honestly, I'm inclined to agree with the 'what's so special about Gor-Rok' viewpoint.

    Intuitively, the most different Lizardmen special character, from a tactical viewpoint, is probably Tiktaq'to. He offers a flying Lord, and can offer bonuses to Terradons and Ripperdactyls (or, if CA pulls an Alith Anar, Ripperdactyl Braves...) and could offer bonuses to ambushes and certain hero actions, emphasising a sneakier playstyle.

    Kroak and Tetto'ekko both have potential from a mechanics viewpoint. Kroak could have a mechanic where the player is actually Ten-Zlati, working to steadily restore Lord Kroak to full consciousness. Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    I haven't decided on what his army traits could be exactly, although i have gave it thought. Maybe his army could have a large charge defense bonus and be immune to psychology, which would represent Gor-Rok pretty well.
    I have no doubt CA could think up something great for him though.

    I think what would diversify him the most, other than being a on-foot Tank, is that CA gets the chance to add Lord Kroak as a Mechanic or Rite. I think it could be really amazing. Lord Kroak could also give Gor-Rok commands through-out his campaign, telling him to retrieve stolen artifacts and plaques from random enemy armies and settlements around the world. Which would be true to his lore and a lot of fun.
    I'm looking for things deeper than just which units have bonuses. Tretch has his backstabbing nature. Alith Anar has his sneaky nature, able to engage in activities that most High Elves can't. Alarielle has her Defender of Ulthuan and Mortal World's Torment traits. Hellebron has the Death Night mechanic. Lokhir has his special relationship with Black Arks. CA has shown a distinct preference for lordpack and FLC lords that don't just emphasise a different mix of units, but which bring new mechanics to the strategic map.

    What does Gor-Rok bring to that table? I've come up with at least basic concepts for the alternatives with less time thinking than I've spent typing this post, while the best I recall seeing for Gor-Rok is getting to use Lord Kroak as a mechanic. I'm not convinced that it wouldn't be better to cut out the middleman (or, rather, middle-lizard) in that case.
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,149
    edited November 2018

    And Kroak as a LL? Sure if you want to completely ruin his fluff and miss the point of his character in the lizardmen lore. "Inventing" him again in order to make him an incredibly dumbed down version of himself for balance reasons, having him casually chat in diplomacy with other random faction leaders, would be such a disservice to the character.
    He's essentially a dead nuke the LM carry into battle in desperate times. He has one single spell and that's it: the Deliverance of Itza.

    Of course he shouldn't be talking with other factions in the diplomacy screen. He would A) be just sitting there and doing nothing or b) there should be a skink sitting in front of him doing the talking. It would actually be kind of funny if his model had said skink taking care of him too. Let's remember that Eben von Liebwitz isn't the actual boss (and thus only a battlefield/campaign map representative) of Whisenland too. Lorewise the actual leading/decision making would be done by a priest councel backstage. He would definetly offer room to implement at least a version of the temple guard and slann synergy mechanic, if CA repurposed the way pieces are maned for him. After all he is a floating mummy so making him a spellcasting artillery piece coming with its own unit of temple guard is actually kind of thematic, he can't fight in close combat himself anyway. It would also make him the first Lord with an entity count higher than one.
    His difference to other casters would be that he only had one spell, making up for all his shortcomings with the sheer power of it. Should probably the strongest spell in the game.
    The only things Lords do in TW:WH are marching at the front of an army emiting their leadership aura (Kroaks presence is enough to inspire his fellow LM) and represent their army on the campaign map. Both of that wouldn't violate Kroaks lore. There is no mechanic indicating that it has to be the Lord doing the actual leading.
    So: We want Piggalo I. as legendary Lord ;-)

    P.S. Not having to do voice lines for him would actually save CA some trouble.
    Now that is finally a more creative and original way of interpreting Kroak as a LL ingame. It's the only interesting idea i've ever seen suggested for him.
    Essentially he would be the Legendary lord without actually "being" the Legendary lord. He would be completely inanimate, dead and silent, he wouldn't interact with anything and anyone. He's a dead mummy. Diplomacy would be carried out only by Ten Zlati, who would be hanging around with him on his palanquin.
    In battle, he could basically be the first multiple entity "lord" that plays as a cohesive unit: him as the nuke device with one single Uber spell, Ten Zlati with a couple of other spells, and then a unit of Eternity Wardens surrounding him for the actual melee fight. Instead of dying he would simply teleport away from the battlefield the moment the last one of his Guards dies.
    I could get behind this idea if CA really goes all out and really makes him a unique and very original "Legendary Lord". An actual amalgamation of different individuals with different roles presented as a single entity/unit. That sounds very unique.

    Thing is, this sounds way too expensive for an FLC, and i doubt CA would be willing to put this much effort in a free lord. But who knows?

    Either way, i still feel he should be a rite / mechanic. The moment you make him a LL is the moment he has to inevitably get toned down and nerfed to the ground because multiplayer is still a thing in this game. And i think this would be a disservice to the character and to what he represents. I dont wan't Deliverance of Itza to become what Ruination of Cities is..a decent albeit totally random spell no one ultimately cares about.
    If you make him a rite and a faction mechanic on both the campaign and battle map, you are making him a Single Player only thing, and this gives CA total freedom. No one cares at all about SP balance (you shoulnd't since SP balance is already non-existant), you can really go all out in terms of actual power. Make him absolutely Overpowered, having him be a way of completely whiping out an entire army or destroying an entire settlement. Give it a long cooldown and "balance" him around that.
    Have him also be a battle ability that could literally 1-shot multiple units, once every god knows how many turns. The balance is up to CA. Thing is, they would have no limitations at all when it comes to his power and how the Deliverance of Itza is represented.
    The fact that he got heavily teased as a Weapon of mass distruction in the most recent Lokhir ME intro gives me hope that CA is going the right way.
    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
  • AENARlONAENARlON Registered Users Posts: 865
    I favour Tehenhauin and Kroak as LLs. As Tehenhauin is probably most people's first pick I'll focus on my reasons for Kroak:

    1. A point that no one has mentioned is the named lords in TT. After we went 'off road' with vampirates I think it's important that CA reaffirm their commitment to basing the game on the lore and TT units. That means Tehenhauin and Kroak. The other named characters are at best heroes in the current edition. In fact Maz, KG, Tehenhauin and Kroak are the only named characters in every edition of TT.

    2. The main 'problem' with Kroak is supposed to be that he's a Slann, and we already have a Slann LL. But the Slann simply are the leaders of the LM. That's just how the lore is. If you have four named leaders, having two Slann is by no means too many.

    3. Also he's dead! That's kind of a big difference...

    4. In game this would mean he's very tanky, with virtually no offensive combat capability. This is something we basically don't have in any LL, and definitely not in Mazdamundi, who's a powerful melee combatant on Zlaaq. The lack of combat capability would focus attention on what the Slann should really be about.

    5. Strong but unique magic, with only one spell that's very powerful and various supporting abilities. Deliverance of Itza is an area effect direct damage spell emanating from Kroak - something between Final Transmutation and Mists of the Lady, with extra damage to Daemons and Undead. In addition he passively nerfs enemy to hit rolls (probably translated to -MA area effect). Also can dispel spells etc. Keep him alive in the thick of the battle and he'll wreck the enemy's day; but you do need to look after him.

    6. It must finally be emphasized that Kroak is 'the' big name lizardman. He is the first mage-priest, taught by the Old Ones themselves. Not including him would be like leaving out Malekith.

    Looking at the other options, they have none of the unique benefits of Kroak as well as significant problems:

    - Tiktaqto, Tetto'Eko or Oxyotl: assuming Tehenhauin is there, you then have a 'two skink problem', which is a much bigger problem than two Slann given (1) skinks are not the leaders of the race and (2) the skinks would be released at the same time.
    - Gor-Rok or Chakax: 'two Saurus problem', and of course saurus aren't the LM leadership. Having a saurus LL on foot isn't a great innovation, it's Kroq-gar's default state.
    - Nakai: obscure, not even in current army book as hero and never had a model as far as I know. Lore gives no support to idea of a Kroxigor leading an army, let alone a whole faction including Slann mage priests.

    A final word on the idea of Kroak popping up when needed, like the Green Knight. He is a relic priest, his shattered physical form carefully reassembled by skinks and tended with resins to hold it together. There is absolutely nothing in the lore about him suddenly materializing to help out the LM. By contrast Nakai is described almost exactly like that in the wiki: 'regarded by Skink Priests as a powerful jungle-spirit made manifest. He is a mighty protector of the Lizardmen and can appear anywhere during times of need'.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,964

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.

    Add to that that the best suggestion I've seen for a special mechanic is co-opting Kroak as a mechanic and, well... I just don't see the appeal.

    If we are truly committed to an Itza start for the FLC lord... my vote goes to having Kroak directly over someone else using Kroak as a mechanic. Like rymintrinseca said, Slann are the leadership caste, and Lord Kroak is the one Lizardmen character that's been given stats in every single army book.
  • VarintrazVarintraz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 389
    as it is another thread about the same topic i just repost my ideas to the topic
    I think Lustria is too small to fit another 2 LM LL. (too few regions specially on ME)
    If we think Itza (Gor Rok or Kroak with some stretch maybe even Tehenhauin) is set in stone this leads to the following options
    - regions get added to Lustria (ME) -> even if we go deeper in the south there is the HE colony and khalidas vortex start so no
    - regions get added to southlands (ME) -> likely. Could give Kroq gar some help. an there is enough place in Vortex down there, too. This would likely mean Tehenhauin cause i remember he followed the Skaven out of Lustria
    - Albion will indeed get LM -> hopefully and at the moment not unlikely. If this is the case i see Nakai (helped Mazda building temple city there) or Oxyotl (chaos related dude could justify chaos terrain which is a lot up there to be suitable climate)

    for me:
    most likely: Gor Rok Itza and Tehenhauin southwestern Southlands
    hopefully (just personal): Tehenhauin in Itza and Nakai/Oxyotl in Albion.
    Team Lizardmen
  • Fan3982173917524862Fan3982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,516
    Boring, uninspired, half-assed reskin of Kroq with no real unique faction mechanics or bonuses? Seems like a perfect choice for CA, like they completely missed the mark of making Lokhir enjoyable and unique beyond his start.
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,149
    edited November 2018
    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.

    Add to that that the best suggestion I've seen for a special mechanic is co-opting Kroak as a mechanic and, well... I just don't see the appeal.

    If we are truly committed to an Itza start for the FLC lord... my vote goes to having Kroak directly over someone else using Kroak as a mechanic. Like rymintrinseca said, Slann are the leadership caste, and Lord Kroak is the one Lizardmen character that's been given stats in every single army book.
    I agree with your point of people exaggerating when it comes to Gor-Rok. Thing is, when i say Grimgor or Throgg i'm talking about the general role and playstyle, it's not a size comparison. So by that i mean a very though foot lord, high HP, high Phy. Res., a big splash attack, anti-infantry, charge defense and other goodies. The LM don't have such thing, no matter how hard you try to tell me Kroq plays the same.
    Kroq plays nothing like that at all. I already wrote in this topic how the two are different. Kroq Gar is essentially a Carnosaur with a magic missile and a couple of unique abilities. He plays like a monster unit (note, he's one of my favourite lords).
    Unmounted Kroq? Yep, grasping at straws here.. Yea sure for the first 10-15? turns of any campaign he'll be unmounted, right up until you can get him a Cold One int he very early game and then never look back... And in MP unmounted Kroq is extremely rare and kind of pointless (an unmounted Old Blood is cheaper and with better buffs/items).
    Either way, he's just bad with no mount. Low mass, poor attack animations against infantry blobs, he's still anti-large. I fail to see how he's even remotely comparable to what Gor-Rok would bring, but to each his own i guess.
    Also yes, he's always been a hero level character, but that really isn't the point anymore in this game. Considering the fluff, Gor-Rok makes perfect sense as a Lord level character, as he has lead and commanded armies on his own. Otherwise, there wouldnt be much of a discussion to make since we would have to obviously get Tehenhauin and Kroak since they are the only two remaining Lords.

    As for Kroak, as a longtime LM fan i'm all in for him of course. Thing is, if he's the FLC i doubt CA will ever do him justice. So unless he's brought in the game in a very unique, "expensive" and special way (i.e a multi entity single unit made of Kroak with his single spell, Ten Zlati for other magic and Eternity Wardens for the melee fight sharing a single hp pool, see my previous post) i don't want him. He'd be another nerfed down and redesigned caster on a palanquin who, for multiplayer purposes, will have to be obviously heavily balanced (just look at Mazdamundi and Teclis) and won't be in any way that much better than your average Malagor or Wurzzag.
    I personally don't want that. It would be a massive disservice to the character and pretty much miss the whole point of why he exists in the lore.
    Make him a SP only thing? CA has literally no limits on how OP he can be. Be it a rite, a campagn mechanic, a temporary summon, all three together or whatever CA can come up with.

    Tetto'eko, as cool as he is, is just bland and doesn't offer anything unique. He just doesn't fit. Same with Nakai, who despite being namedropped and now suddenly becoming iconic, is a footnote reference. Chakax is just a no. He's a body guard who moves once every millennia.

    If we want to talk about unique gameplay, then by all means let's at least talk about Tiktaqto or Oxyotl.

    To me, the best thing we can get is a "two in one" package, with a playable Gor-Rok and Kroak as a faction mechanic.



    Boring, uninspired, half-assed reskin of Kroq with no real unique faction mechanics or bonuses? Seems like a perfect choice for CA, like they completely missed the mark of making Lokhir enjoyable and unique beyond his start.

    What a great contribution to this thread.... But i agree when it comes to Lokhir.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    Nakai but he has two skink chiefs riding on his shoulders, telling him which way to go, while he can only say his own name like a Pokemon.
  • AENARlONAENARlON Registered Users Posts: 865
    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.
    Right on the money. Here we have (left to right) a generic Saurus Oldblood, Chakax, and Gor-rok.



    Is he Throgg sized? Nowhere even close. In game terms the best case scenario would be something similar to an unmounted Kroq-gar.
  • FifthOfSpaghettiFifthOfSpaghetti Registered Users Posts: 1,636

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.
    Right on the money. Here we have (left to right) a generic Saurus Oldblood, Chakax, and Gor-rok.



    Is he Throgg sized? Nowhere even close. In game terms the best case scenario would be something similar to an unmounted Kroq-gar.
    The models are a poor representation tbh, I see the point you’re trying make, his size is exaggerated he’s bigger but not insanely bigger. Games Workshop says a space marine is much taller than a regular human, yet the models are practically the same size.


    The table tops rules are a good example but translate those same things to Total War and you have a character who was meant to be tanky being tanky.

  • VarintrazVarintraz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 389
    What about oxytol guys.
    1. start in albion could be likely. he wandered the chaos wastes for a long time.
    2. i think everyone loves the chameleon skinks. Making them more viable by his stats/bonuses could result in a more range/skirmish focussed LM faction what i miss a bit.
    3. referring to 1. besides Skaven the one big Enemy of the LM is Chaos. By now there is no LM lord who has really problems with Chaos. Mazda fighting Orcs, Vampirates and Dark elves. Kroq Skaven and Undead. Tehenhauin likely Skaven. Oxyotl would be the perfect choice to start at albion and fight mainly against chaos. Maybe chaotic terrain could be nice for him cause he lived thousand of years there.
    4. he has 8th edition rules and got an own unique and nice model.
    5. tbh he adds more flavor than Gor Rok and an undead slann. We already got the LM aspect of tons of big Saurus lines. with Mazdamundi and kroq gar. Tehenhauin will likely bring the skinks to a new rise. So there could be a little room for a stalking, range centered LM campaign.


    Team Lizardmen
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