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reminder to CA that Gor-Rok is the perfect candidate for Itza's LL

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  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,170

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.
    Right on the money. Here we have (left to right) a generic Saurus Oldblood, Chakax, and Gor-rok.



    Is he Throgg sized? Nowhere even close. In game terms the best case scenario would be something similar to an unmounted Kroq-gar.
    The models are a poor representation tbh, I see the point you’re trying make, his size is exaggerated he’s bigger but not insanely bigger. Games Workshop says a space marine is much taller than a regular human, yet the models are practically the same size.


    The table tops rules are a good example but translate those same things to Total War and you have a character who was meant to be tanky being tanky.

    Thank you.
    From a model point of view, Grimgor is maybe barely bigger than a regular orc and as big as than any regular random Black Orc. In the fluff he's huge, by far the biggest Black Orc around. Pretty much Troll size.

    The model and base size were very important from a gameplay point of view in the TT. So it's black or white, either a small base with obviously a small model (it has to fit in a unit) or a big base.
    In the fluff there's a lot of grey...So yea, using models as justification for actual size is quite pointless.

    Gor-Rok is blatantly said to be a very big Saurus, bigger than your regular Old Blood, Kroq Gar and bigger than Chakax (who are normal in size). I'm not saying he's a Sky Titan, but saying he's normal size cause is model is normal size is simply wrong.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,101
    @Varintraz Oxyotl comes with his own set of narrative problems though. Not dissimilar to nakai this guy is just a lone wolf going about doing his own stuff (harassing and scouting Chaos). His whole MO just cries agent/hero.
  • VarintrazVarintraz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 390
    edited November 2018

    @Varintraz Oxyotl comes with his own set of narrative problems though. Not dissimilar to nakai this guy is just a lone wolf going about doing his own stuff (harassing and scouting Chaos). His whole MO just cries agent/hero.

    i know but in the past these things didn´t matter for CA. They went the way that implementing a character as LL is more based on his fluff/ uniqueness and special role if not presented by another LL from the faction. What is of course understandable. We as the lore interested guys are maybe 5% of the community and to be honest this is lore extended to a point where I do not care. No one of the 95% non lore interested guys would say:" ohr no oxyotl ... hmm i read about one line in an old army book that he lives on his own... what a bad choice." Even i would not do this and i am (concerning LM) very lore interested. What these 95% of consumers think: ah okay a new saurus (Gor Rok) LL hmm looks like Kroq gar in white and buffs saurus which we all use with kroq the whole time too in comparison to: Ah a chameleon skink LL gives vanguard and stealth to some units, making LM range/skirmish options better, has better chance of ambush or even a chance of ambush while normal attacking and a very unique starting position in the north of the map (which is by now too empty of LL)

    Being a hero doesn´t matter, too. legendary heroes won´t come as too much work for too unnecessary roles. Lokhir became LL is a good example. Lorewise Malus would have won this 20000 times but from style and start position Lokhir was a better choice.

    I think by now most people would also agree that the Green Knight would have been a better 4th LL with a unique Starting Position than this 4 times summable nonsense. TW: warhammer has changed a lot and is not 100% correct on lore anymore and focusses on different flavours and is so enhancing the replayability. The franchise is dead anyways ... no need to be 1000% lore correct.
    Team Lizardmen
  • AENARlONAENARlON Registered Users Posts: 865

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.
    Right on the money. Here we have (left to right) a generic Saurus Oldblood, Chakax, and Gor-rok.



    Is he Throgg sized? Nowhere even close. In game terms the best case scenario would be something similar to an unmounted Kroq-gar.
    The models are a poor representation tbh, I see the point you’re trying make, his size is exaggerated he’s bigger but not insanely bigger. Games Workshop says a space marine is much taller than a regular human, yet the models are practically the same size.


    The table tops rules are a good example but translate those same things to Total War and you have a character who was meant to be tanky being tanky.

    Thank you.
    From a model point of view, Grimgor is maybe barely bigger than a regular orc and as big as than any regular random Black Orc. In the fluff he's huge, by far the biggest Black Orc around. Pretty much Troll size.

    The model and base size were very important from a gameplay point of view in the TT. So it's black or white, either a small base with obviously a small model (it has to fit in a unit) or a big base.
    In the fluff there's a lot of grey...So yea, using models as justification for actual size is quite pointless.

    Gor-Rok is blatantly said to be a very big Saurus, bigger than your regular Old Blood, Kroq Gar and bigger than Chakax (who are normal in size). I'm not saying he's a Sky Titan, but saying he's normal size cause is model is normal size is simply wrong.
    If he was really that massive they'd simply have put him on a bigger base, like Throgg and dozens of other oversized characters. He's big for a saurus but still within standard humanoid proportions, so they put him on a standard mini base.
  • FifthOfSpaghettiFifthOfSpaghetti Registered Users Posts: 1,636

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.
    Right on the money. Here we have (left to right) a generic Saurus Oldblood, Chakax, and Gor-rok.



    Is he Throgg sized? Nowhere even close. In game terms the best case scenario would be something similar to an unmounted Kroq-gar.
    The models are a poor representation tbh, I see the point you’re trying make, his size is exaggerated he’s bigger but not insanely bigger. Games Workshop says a space marine is much taller than a regular human, yet the models are practically the same size.


    The table tops rules are a good example but translate those same things to Total War and you have a character who was meant to be tanky being tanky.

    Thank you.
    From a model point of view, Grimgor is maybe barely bigger than a regular orc and as big as than any regular random Black Orc. In the fluff he's huge, by far the biggest Black Orc around. Pretty much Troll size.

    The model and base size were very important from a gameplay point of view in the TT. So it's black or white, either a small base with obviously a small model (it has to fit in a unit) or a big base.
    In the fluff there's a lot of grey...So yea, using models as justification for actual size is quite pointless.

    Gor-Rok is blatantly said to be a very big Saurus, bigger than your regular Old Blood, Kroq Gar and bigger than Chakax (who are normal in size). I'm not saying he's a Sky Titan, but saying he's normal size cause is model is normal size is simply wrong.
    If he was really that massive they'd simply have put him on a bigger base, like Throgg and dozens of other oversized characters. He's big for a saurus but still within standard humanoid proportions, so they put him on a standard mini base.
    Ya… just like Grimgor.… he’s not arguing he should be Throgg sized, but bigger. Like Grimgor is bigger than Black Orcs
  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    I admit that Gor-rok is not the most interesting and has very little personality unlike the skink characters, sure he has done amazing things but so has every other lord and hero.
    However right now I have noticed many matches where people are bringing a saurus old blood on foot or Kroq-Gar on foot. So there is definitely some room for a tanky foot lord like Gor-rok.

    Although Oxyotl is definitely an interesting alternative. However not having a representative of Itza the first city would be very strange, it has a lot of lore in comparison to other settlement and probably has the largest lizardmen army in Lustria (bigger than Hexoatl). I do agree with others that the deliverance of Itza is better of as a bound spell that all armies of the Itza subfaction (or otherwise) can cast, either via some rite or a building.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 30,082
    Making Gor'Rok big seems like forcing him into a slot he simply doesn't fit. He's simply not a monster. That's not in his rules, and it's not in his model. He's simply a large Saurus.

    Now, if they want to do a Monstrous LL they've got an obvious choice; Nakai.


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  • FifthOfSpaghettiFifthOfSpaghetti Registered Users Posts: 1,636

    Making Gor'Rok big seems like forcing him into a slot he simply doesn't fit. He's simply not a monster. That's not in his rules, and it's not in his model. He's simply a large Saurus.

    Now, if they want to do a Monstrous LL they've got an obvious choice; Nakai.


    I’d be happy with Nakai or Gor Rok.

    Considering Gor Rok seems more like a sensible replacement to Nakai(Nakai seems mysterious and ghost like)

    Reasoning I want Gor Rok is because where Kroq Gar is a mounted, offensive lord, we could have a slow highly defensive lord. I see him filling a similar roll like Belegar does, while still having a similar presence as Grimgor being large(r) than regular high damage lord.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,992

    Making Gor'Rok big seems like forcing him into a slot he simply doesn't fit. He's simply not a monster. That's not in his rules, and it's not in his model. He's simply a large Saurus.

    Now, if they want to do a Monstrous LL they've got an obvious choice; Nakai.


    I don't see Nakai happening until they've run out of 8th edition lords since they focus the latest of the races army book/list before going to others like previous editions, Forgeworld and the lore.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,170

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.
    Right on the money. Here we have (left to right) a generic Saurus Oldblood, Chakax, and Gor-rok.



    Is he Throgg sized? Nowhere even close. In game terms the best case scenario would be something similar to an unmounted Kroq-gar.
    The models are a poor representation tbh, I see the point you’re trying make, his size is exaggerated he’s bigger but not insanely bigger. Games Workshop says a space marine is much taller than a regular human, yet the models are practically the same size.


    The table tops rules are a good example but translate those same things to Total War and you have a character who was meant to be tanky being tanky.

    Thank you.
    From a model point of view, Grimgor is maybe barely bigger than a regular orc and as big as than any regular random Black Orc. In the fluff he's huge, by far the biggest Black Orc around. Pretty much Troll size.

    The model and base size were very important from a gameplay point of view in the TT. So it's black or white, either a small base with obviously a small model (it has to fit in a unit) or a big base.
    In the fluff there's a lot of grey...So yea, using models as justification for actual size is quite pointless.

    Gor-Rok is blatantly said to be a very big Saurus, bigger than your regular Old Blood, Kroq Gar and bigger than Chakax (who are normal in size). I'm not saying he's a Sky Titan, but saying he's normal size cause is model is normal size is simply wrong.
    If he was really that massive they'd simply have put him on a bigger base, like Throgg and dozens of other oversized characters. He's big for a saurus but still within standard humanoid proportions, so they put him on a standard mini base.
    Ok i guess. Way to completely ignore anything i just said while adding stuff i never did (where did i say Gor-Rok is massive again?).

    Anyways, do you want me to take a side-by-side picture of the models of Grimgor Ironhide (the biggest black orc warboss alive in the lore) and a regular Night Goblin? So you can see how absolutely pointless it is to use the size of models when discussing about the lore.
    Lore and TT were two very distinct things.

    Making Gor'Rok big seems like forcing him into a slot he simply doesn't fit. He's simply not a monster. That's not in his rules, and it's not in his model. He's simply a large Saurus.

    Now, if they want to do a Monstrous LL they've got an obvious choice; Nakai.


    Nakai literally has 1 single tiny paragraph worth of lore. It's literally a footnote in both 7th and 8th edition. He then gets name dropped once in another footnote in the Lustria expansion book. The end.
    No models, no rules, no items, nothing. No artwork (the one you linked is the 6th edition artwork for regular Kroxigors, which for some reason the wiki decided to give to Nakai. That's not him). Plus, making Nakai a leader of a faction (especially Itza) makes 0 sense, sorry.

    Gor-Rok literally fills the exact same role, while at the same time making perfect sense as Itza's faction leader, and being a fully-fledged LM character since 7th ed., with TT models, items, rules and a full page worth of lore.
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,729

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.
    Right on the money. Here we have (left to right) a generic Saurus Oldblood, Chakax, and Gor-rok.



    Is he Throgg sized? Nowhere even close. In game terms the best case scenario would be something similar to an unmounted Kroq-gar.
    The models are a poor representation tbh, I see the point you’re trying make, his size is exaggerated he’s bigger but not insanely bigger. Games Workshop says a space marine is much taller than a regular human, yet the models are practically the same size.


    The table tops rules are a good example but translate those same things to Total War and you have a character who was meant to be tanky being tanky.

    Thank you.
    From a model point of view, Grimgor is maybe barely bigger than a regular orc and as big as than any regular random Black Orc. In the fluff he's huge, by far the biggest Black Orc around. Pretty much Troll size.

    The model and base size were very important from a gameplay point of view in the TT. So it's black or white, either a small base with obviously a small model (it has to fit in a unit) or a big base.
    In the fluff there's a lot of grey...So yea, using models as justification for actual size is quite pointless.

    Gor-Rok is blatantly said to be a very big Saurus, bigger than your regular Old Blood, Kroq Gar and bigger than Chakax (who are normal in size). I'm not saying he's a Sky Titan, but saying he's normal size cause is model is normal size is simply wrong.
    If he was really that massive they'd simply have put him on a bigger base, like Throgg and dozens of other oversized characters. He's big for a saurus but still within standard humanoid proportions, so they put him on a standard mini base.
    Ok i guess. Way to completely ignore anything i just said while adding stuff i never did (where did i say Gor-Rok is massive again?).

    Anyways, do you want me to take a side-by-side picture of the models of Grimgor Ironhide (the biggest black orc warboss alive in the lore) and a regular Night Goblin? So you can see how absolutely pointless it is to use the size of models when discussing about the lore.
    Lore and TT were two very distinct things.

    Making Gor'Rok big seems like forcing him into a slot he simply doesn't fit. He's simply not a monster. That's not in his rules, and it's not in his model. He's simply a large Saurus.

    Now, if they want to do a Monstrous LL they've got an obvious choice; Nakai.


    Nakai literally has 1 single tiny paragraph worth of lore. It's literally a footnote in both 7th and 8th edition. He then gets name dropped once in another footnote in the Lustria expansion book. The end.
    No models, no rules, no items, nothing. No artwork (the one you linked is the 6th edition artwork for regular Kroxigors, which for some reason the wiki decided to give to Nakai. That's not him). Plus, making Nakai a leader of a faction (especially Itza) makes 0 sense, sorry.

    Gor-Rok literally fills the exact same role, while at the same time making perfect sense as Itza's faction leader, and being a fully-fledged LM character since 7th ed., with TT models, items, rules and a full page worth of lore.
    I don't see anyone saying Nakai should lead Itza, so not sure why this is the argument you're making. Most suggest him starting in Albion as if the Albion campaign happened and the Lizardmen won and built their temple there like they did in the lore.

    As for Gor-rok filling the same role? I don't really see how he is since, as many have pointed out, he's not a monstrous infantry size like Nakai would be. And if we're talking filling the same roles, Kroq-gar is Gor-Rok, but better and with mount options so I really don't think that's an argument you want to use for Gor-Rok.

    That said, it most likely will be Gor-Rok as that makes more sense and would be slightly easier to make as they'd basically just be Krog-gar on foot with a few new animations.

    I don't understand why people here have a crusade against people wanting something. Some people want Nakai, why is this something that upsets you? No one's upset that the OP wants Gor-Rok. People are free to like/want whatever they decide to.
    SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
  • Cortes31Cortes31 Registered Users Posts: 1,929
    Tehenhauin in Itza and Nakai in Albion is my preferred idea.

    No need for another Saurus or Slann, no matter how iconic they may be. Could be wrong of course but after Grombrindal and former heroes and no-names, I would not rule Nakai out.
  • VarintrazVarintraz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 390
    we all get a little mind blown if there won´t be mister Tehenhauin i think....

    we are acting like he is already confirmed. I hope he will make it as he is is my most favoured.

    BUT 2 things make me think twice. Itza will be LL start this is a 100% thing. Does Tehenhauin fit Itza ? not really. Tbh I think Itza leads to the fact that one of the LL will be Gor-rok or Kroak. If they won´t go Tretch 2.0 with starting location there will be no Tehenhauin in Itza.

    Okay if we assume we get Itza with Gor-Rok/Kroak what else will we get. Albion got added to ME map what in the past was a good hint (Sartosa, Chupayotl). Far from confirmed but ... conspicuous. Does Tehenhauin fit to Albion ? hell no.

    of course Starting position are not soo important (Tretch, Khatep, Khalida in vortex) but could point a little bit to what we are expecting.

    Still Tehenhauin/ Gor-Rok ist most likely. But Tehenhauin is far from 100% especially if you think about starting positions.
    Team Lizardmen
  • VarintrazVarintraz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 390
    Cortes31 said:

    Tehenhauin in Itza and Nakai in Albion is my preferred idea.

    No need for another Saurus or Slann, no matter how iconic they may be. Could be wrong of course but after Grombrindal and former heroes and no-names, I would not rule Nakai out.

    i hope my friend. I hope. But Tehenhauin in Itza ? with the golden mask as his banner ... he is in the Slanns eyes some kind of pagan cultist. I don´t see him leading armys under Kroaks golden mask ... unfortunately. It would be my beloved combination, too or tehen and oxyotl.
    Team Lizardmen
  • Cortes31Cortes31 Registered Users Posts: 1,929
    Varintraz said:

    Cortes31 said:

    Tehenhauin in Itza and Nakai in Albion is my preferred idea.

    No need for another Saurus or Slann, no matter how iconic they may be. Could be wrong of course but after Grombrindal and former heroes and no-names, I would not rule Nakai out.

    i hope my friend. I hope. But Tehenhauin in Itza ? with the golden mask as his banner ... he is in the Slanns eyes some kind of pagan cultist. I don´t see him leading armys under Kroaks golden mask ... unfortunately. It would be my beloved combination, too or tehen and oxyotl.
    What IS his banner, by the way?
    Also, Sartosa got its banner changed when Vampirates arrived.


  • VarintrazVarintraz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 390
    edited November 2018
    Cortes31 said:

    Varintraz said:

    Cortes31 said:

    Tehenhauin in Itza and Nakai in Albion is my preferred idea.

    No need for another Saurus or Slann, no matter how iconic they may be. Could be wrong of course but after Grombrindal and former heroes and no-names, I would not rule Nakai out.

    i hope my friend. I hope. But Tehenhauin in Itza ? with the golden mask as his banner ... he is in the Slanns eyes some kind of pagan cultist. I don´t see him leading armys under Kroaks golden mask ... unfortunately. It would be my beloved combination, too or tehen and oxyotl.
    What IS his banner, by the way?
    Also, Sartosa got its banner changed when Vampirates arrived.


    By now Itza has the golden mask of lord Kroak. Cult of sotek i don´t know if it got a unique banner but maybe the bring something with a snake.
    You are correct concerning Sartosa they gave it to a complete new race. But i feel like they give Itza the most ovious treatment (Gor Rok or Kroak) ... unfortunately

    Found this one as a little overview. Some LM LL candidates are missing cause they belong to no city but it´s a nice graphic.


    Team Lizardmen
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,170

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.
    Right on the money. Here we have (left to right) a generic Saurus Oldblood, Chakax, and Gor-rok.



    Is he Throgg sized? Nowhere even close. In game terms the best case scenario would be something similar to an unmounted Kroq-gar.
    The models are a poor representation tbh, I see the point you’re trying make, his size is exaggerated he’s bigger but not insanely bigger. Games Workshop says a space marine is much taller than a regular human, yet the models are practically the same size.


    The table tops rules are a good example but translate those same things to Total War and you have a character who was meant to be tanky being tanky.

    Thank you.
    From a model point of view, Grimgor is maybe barely bigger than a regular orc and as big as than any regular random Black Orc. In the fluff he's huge, by far the biggest Black Orc around. Pretty much Troll size.

    The model and base size were very important from a gameplay point of view in the TT. So it's black or white, either a small base with obviously a small model (it has to fit in a unit) or a big base.
    In the fluff there's a lot of grey...So yea, using models as justification for actual size is quite pointless.

    Gor-Rok is blatantly said to be a very big Saurus, bigger than your regular Old Blood, Kroq Gar and bigger than Chakax (who are normal in size). I'm not saying he's a Sky Titan, but saying he's normal size cause is model is normal size is simply wrong.
    If he was really that massive they'd simply have put him on a bigger base, like Throgg and dozens of other oversized characters. He's big for a saurus but still within standard humanoid proportions, so they put him on a standard mini base.
    Ok i guess. Way to completely ignore anything i just said while adding stuff i never did (where did i say Gor-Rok is massive again?).

    Anyways, do you want me to take a side-by-side picture of the models of Grimgor Ironhide (the biggest black orc warboss alive in the lore) and a regular Night Goblin? So you can see how absolutely pointless it is to use the size of models when discussing about the lore.
    Lore and TT were two very distinct things.

    Making Gor'Rok big seems like forcing him into a slot he simply doesn't fit. He's simply not a monster. That's not in his rules, and it's not in his model. He's simply a large Saurus.

    Now, if they want to do a Monstrous LL they've got an obvious choice; Nakai.


    Nakai literally has 1 single tiny paragraph worth of lore. It's literally a footnote in both 7th and 8th edition. He then gets name dropped once in another footnote in the Lustria expansion book. The end.
    No models, no rules, no items, nothing. No artwork (the one you linked is the 6th edition artwork for regular Kroxigors, which for some reason the wiki decided to give to Nakai. That's not him). Plus, making Nakai a leader of a faction (especially Itza) makes 0 sense, sorry.

    Gor-Rok literally fills the exact same role, while at the same time making perfect sense as Itza's faction leader, and being a fully-fledged LM character since 7th ed., with TT models, items, rules and a full page worth of lore.
    I don't see anyone saying Nakai should lead Itza, so not sure why this is the argument you're making. Most suggest him starting in Albion as if the Albion campaign happened and the Lizardmen won and built their temple there like they did in the lore.

    As for Gor-rok filling the same role? I don't really see how he is since, as many have pointed out, he's not a monstrous infantry size like Nakai would be. And if we're talking filling the same roles, Kroq-gar is Gor-Rok, but better and with mount options so I really don't think that's an argument you want to use for Gor-Rok.

    That said, it most likely will be Gor-Rok as that makes more sense and would be slightly easier to make as they'd basically just be Krog-gar on foot with a few new animations.

    I don't understand why people here have a crusade against people wanting something. Some people want Nakai, why is this something that upsets you? No one's upset that the OP wants Gor-Rok. People are free to like/want whatever they decide to.
    Sorry if I sound like i'm on some kind of crusade. I'm not, i enjoy speculation and warhammer so, might just get a little heated sometimes!
    Also, i've read so many people just dismissing Gor-Rok as some boring unknown, only to then mention Nakai right after, who somehow from being a footnote is now suddenly relevant and iconic. But anyways, already explained why Nakai doesn't fit at all.
    I'm also basing all my argumentations on the theory that we'll get Tehenhauin leading his own DLC faction (Cult of Sotek) and Itza as the FLC faction. I didn't mention this again cause i've already mentioned it several times in previous posts.

    Also, i don't agree with Nakai and Gor-Rok not possibly filling the same role. You wouldn't say Throgg (monstrous) and Grimgor (infantry sized) are all that different in their role and how the play would you?
    You can very well make infantry-sized lords feel either like a big heavy-weight(Grimgor) or like a light-weight (Sigvald for example).
    And again, with the notion that Kroq is just a better Gor-Rok. I am like 100% in disagreement with this thing.
    So Mannfred is just a better Vlad then? They are both Von Carstein vampires, both casters, but Mannfred has one entire additional lore of magic, all the mount options in the world, super regen, he can fly, has breath attacks, etc etc .
    Would you say Vlad plays like a worst Mannfred? Is Vlad then totally irrelevant and pointless in the game then? Yea i don't think anyone would say so. Vlad plays and feels great, and offer a whole different package compared to Mannfred. Anyways, i've already discussed enough about this in previous posts.
    There's enough stats, skills and numbers for CA to actually diversify stuff...

    Cheers!
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,729

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.
    Right on the money. Here we have (left to right) a generic Saurus Oldblood, Chakax, and Gor-rok.



    Is he Throgg sized? Nowhere even close. In game terms the best case scenario would be something similar to an unmounted Kroq-gar.
    The models are a poor representation tbh, I see the point you’re trying make, his size is exaggerated he’s bigger but not insanely bigger. Games Workshop says a space marine is much taller than a regular human, yet the models are practically the same size.


    The table tops rules are a good example but translate those same things to Total War and you have a character who was meant to be tanky being tanky.

    Thank you.
    From a model point of view, Grimgor is maybe barely bigger than a regular orc and as big as than any regular random Black Orc. In the fluff he's huge, by far the biggest Black Orc around. Pretty much Troll size.

    The model and base size were very important from a gameplay point of view in the TT. So it's black or white, either a small base with obviously a small model (it has to fit in a unit) or a big base.
    In the fluff there's a lot of grey...So yea, using models as justification for actual size is quite pointless.

    Gor-Rok is blatantly said to be a very big Saurus, bigger than your regular Old Blood, Kroq Gar and bigger than Chakax (who are normal in size). I'm not saying he's a Sky Titan, but saying he's normal size cause is model is normal size is simply wrong.
    If he was really that massive they'd simply have put him on a bigger base, like Throgg and dozens of other oversized characters. He's big for a saurus but still within standard humanoid proportions, so they put him on a standard mini base.
    Ok i guess. Way to completely ignore anything i just said while adding stuff i never did (where did i say Gor-Rok is massive again?).

    Anyways, do you want me to take a side-by-side picture of the models of Grimgor Ironhide (the biggest black orc warboss alive in the lore) and a regular Night Goblin? So you can see how absolutely pointless it is to use the size of models when discussing about the lore.
    Lore and TT were two very distinct things.

    Making Gor'Rok big seems like forcing him into a slot he simply doesn't fit. He's simply not a monster. That's not in his rules, and it's not in his model. He's simply a large Saurus.

    Now, if they want to do a Monstrous LL they've got an obvious choice; Nakai.


    Nakai literally has 1 single tiny paragraph worth of lore. It's literally a footnote in both 7th and 8th edition. He then gets name dropped once in another footnote in the Lustria expansion book. The end.
    No models, no rules, no items, nothing. No artwork (the one you linked is the 6th edition artwork for regular Kroxigors, which for some reason the wiki decided to give to Nakai. That's not him). Plus, making Nakai a leader of a faction (especially Itza) makes 0 sense, sorry.

    Gor-Rok literally fills the exact same role, while at the same time making perfect sense as Itza's faction leader, and being a fully-fledged LM character since 7th ed., with TT models, items, rules and a full page worth of lore.
    I don't see anyone saying Nakai should lead Itza, so not sure why this is the argument you're making. Most suggest him starting in Albion as if the Albion campaign happened and the Lizardmen won and built their temple there like they did in the lore.

    As for Gor-rok filling the same role? I don't really see how he is since, as many have pointed out, he's not a monstrous infantry size like Nakai would be. And if we're talking filling the same roles, Kroq-gar is Gor-Rok, but better and with mount options so I really don't think that's an argument you want to use for Gor-Rok.

    That said, it most likely will be Gor-Rok as that makes more sense and would be slightly easier to make as they'd basically just be Krog-gar on foot with a few new animations.

    I don't understand why people here have a crusade against people wanting something. Some people want Nakai, why is this something that upsets you? No one's upset that the OP wants Gor-Rok. People are free to like/want whatever they decide to.
    Sorry if I sound like i'm on some kind of crusade. I'm not, i enjoy speculation and warhammer so, might just get a little heated sometimes!
    Also, i've read so many people just dismissing Gor-Rok as some boring unknown, only to then mention Nakai right after, who somehow from being a footnote is now suddenly relevant and iconic. But anyways, already explained why Nakai doesn't fit at all.
    I'm also basing all my argumentations on the theory that we'll get Tehenhauin leading his own DLC faction (Cult of Sotek) and Itza as the FLC faction. I didn't mention this again cause i've already mentioned it several times in previous posts.

    Also, i don't agree with Nakai and Gor-Rok not possibly filling the same role. You wouldn't say Throgg (monstrous) and Grimgor (infantry sized) are all that different in their role and how the play would you?
    You can very well make infantry-sized lords feel either like a big heavy-weight(Grimgor) or like a light-weight (Sigvald for example).
    And again, with the notion that Kroq is just a better Gor-Rok. I am like 100% in disagreement with this thing.
    So Mannfred is just a better Vlad then? They are both Von Carstein vampires, both casters, but Mannfred has one entire additional lore of magic, all the mount options in the world, super regen, he can fly, has breath attacks, etc etc .
    Would you say Vlad plays like a worst Mannfred? Is Vlad then totally irrelevant and pointless in the game then? Yea i don't think anyone would say so. Vlad plays and feels great, and offer a whole different package compared to Mannfred. Anyways, i've already discussed enough about this in previous posts.
    There's enough stats, skills and numbers for CA to actually diversify stuff...

    Cheers!
    And I apologize as while replying to you I was also referring to others as well. I’m not dismissive of Gor-Rok, as I said, I think he’s more likely. I just like Nakai more, so I totally claim bias, but not enough that if Gor-Rok comes I’ll complain or anything.

    As for the Grimgor vs Throgg point, I definitely think there is a difference between them both in hitbox size and utility as a siege attacker and charge mass. Though they function in the same type of role, it’s the difference between being hit by a car or hit by a truck. Pretty much the same outcome, but one is a harder hit.

    I think your point regarding Vlad vs Mannfred is a much better argument, but with one difference. I’d always prefer Mannfred in your comparison. What with the mount options and casting abilities. Your point is still valid, but it just goes to show that there are key differences between them in regards to casting and mount options. But that applies only to Vlad and Mannfred, I don’t see the comparison to Gor-Rok. In both cases, I think the melee option with no mount is less versatile than the comparison so I’d always pick Mannfred and Kroq-Gar over Vlad or Gor-Rok. But that doesn’t mean at all I don’t think the others should exist. In an ideal world we’d have all of these lords so it’d be a moot point. But when you have to choose it’s going to come down to preference.

    You have yours and I have mine.
    SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,966

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.

    Add to that that the best suggestion I've seen for a special mechanic is co-opting Kroak as a mechanic and, well... I just don't see the appeal.

    If we are truly committed to an Itza start for the FLC lord... my vote goes to having Kroak directly over someone else using Kroak as a mechanic. Like rymintrinseca said, Slann are the leadership caste, and Lord Kroak is the one Lizardmen character that's been given stats in every single army book.
    I agree with your point of people exaggerating when it comes to Gor-Rok. Thing is, when i say Grimgor or Throgg i'm talking about the general role and playstyle, it's not a size comparison. So by that i mean a very though foot lord, high HP, high Phy. Res., a big splash attack, anti-infantry, charge defense and other goodies. The LM don't have such thing, no matter how hard you try to tell me Kroq plays the same.
    But where's he getting all that from?

    Even if, hypothetically, we were to boost his base stats to Lord level, he's not THAT tough by special character standards.

    None of his special rules justify physical resistance, certainly not high physical resistance. Maybe you could translate his near-immunity to instant kills as something along those lines, but apart from that all he's got on the tabletop is high Toughness, saurus hide, and an enchanted shield. High armour, possibly combined with a high missile resistance and melee defence to represent the shield, is about as far as that goes. If anything, Kroq-Gar deserves Physical Resistance more, through the Sacred Spawning of Xhotl.

    A big splash attack? He has a one-handed mace. The rules for it would probably translate into higher MA and weapon damage, but otherwise he'd be comparable to other Saurus characters on foot in that respect.

    Anti-infantry? Again, he has a one-handed mace. That doesn't grant anti-infantry or anti-large in any Total War precedents that I know of. He also has a fairly high Strength on the TT, so anti-infantry can't be justified through having multiple weaker hits that bounce off monster but which turn him into an infantry blender.

    Charge defence? Okay, that I can accept - he does have that rule on his shield that can punish chargers.

    But that's why I don't see why there's such a commotion around Gor-Rok. People keep coming up with things he COULD have, but most of those ideas don't reflect what he DOES have on the tabletop. It feels like they're trying to make him fit into a slot rather than actually genuinely reflecting what he was as a character on the tabletop, while other Lizardmen special characters have unique features that would be much more easily reflected in TWW. There's also nothing unique about him on the strategic level: he has no particular affinity with any given unit, he doesn't appear to be associated with any tactical or strategic thinking beyond 'bash the enemy's head in', and all things considered there's not really anything that would distinguish an army (or faction) lead by Gor-Rok from one lead by a generic Oldblood. Which is reflected by the best suggestions for what he'd do on the strategic level being co-opting Lord Kroak and something about better Saurus.

    Say what you like about the others, they've all got potential for more unique mechanics and themes than "A Saurus on foot, but tougher."
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    edited December 2018
    Generic Dwarf lord had a 6 max hit targets.
    Empire lord at gryphon had 5.
  • AENARlONAENARlON Registered Users Posts: 865
    edited December 2018
    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.

    Add to that that the best suggestion I've seen for a special mechanic is co-opting Kroak as a mechanic and, well... I just don't see the appeal.

    If we are truly committed to an Itza start for the FLC lord... my vote goes to having Kroak directly over someone else using Kroak as a mechanic. Like rymintrinseca said, Slann are the leadership caste, and Lord Kroak is the one Lizardmen character that's been given stats in every single army book.
    I agree with your point of people exaggerating when it comes to Gor-Rok. Thing is, when i say Grimgor or Throgg i'm talking about the general role and playstyle, it's not a size comparison. So by that i mean a very though foot lord, high HP, high Phy. Res., a big splash attack, anti-infantry, charge defense and other goodies. The LM don't have such thing, no matter how hard you try to tell me Kroq plays the same.
    But where's he getting all that from?

    Even if, hypothetically, we were to boost his base stats to Lord level, he's not THAT tough by special character standards.

    None of his special rules justify physical resistance, certainly not high physical resistance. Maybe you could translate his near-immunity to instant kills as something along those lines, but apart from that all he's got on the tabletop is high Toughness, saurus hide, and an enchanted shield. High armour, possibly combined with a high missile resistance and melee defence to represent the shield, is about as far as that goes. If anything, Kroq-Gar deserves Physical Resistance more, through the Sacred Spawning of Xhotl.

    A big splash attack? He has a one-handed mace. The rules for it would probably translate into higher MA and weapon damage, but otherwise he'd be comparable to other Saurus characters on foot in that respect.

    Anti-infantry? Again, he has a one-handed mace. That doesn't grant anti-infantry or anti-large in any Total War precedents that I know of. He also has a fairly high Strength on the TT, so anti-infantry can't be justified through having multiple weaker hits that bounce off monster but which turn him into an infantry blender.

    Charge defence? Okay, that I can accept - he does have that rule on his shield that can punish chargers.

    But that's why I don't see why there's such a commotion around Gor-Rok. People keep coming up with things he COULD have, but most of those ideas don't reflect what he DOES have on the tabletop. It feels like they're trying to make him fit into a slot rather than actually genuinely reflecting what he was as a character on the tabletop, while other Lizardmen special characters have unique features that would be much more easily reflected in TWW. There's also nothing unique about him on the strategic level: he has no particular affinity with any given unit, he doesn't appear to be associated with any tactical or strategic thinking beyond 'bash the enemy's head in', and all things considered there's not really anything that would distinguish an army (or faction) lead by Gor-Rok from one lead by a generic Oldblood. Which is reflected by the best suggestions for what he'd do on the strategic level being co-opting Lord Kroak and something about better Saurus.

    Say what you like about the others, they've all got potential for more unique mechanics and themes than "A Saurus on foot, but tougher."
    The nearest thing to the rule about wounds in game is maybe Tyrion's Heart of Avelorn, which replenishes his hp when he hits zero. If he had that he should have lower base HP than Kroq (lower TT wounds). Though arguably all characters have such a rule in practice given nothing can really one shot them, so maybe he should just have a regular lord (rather than hero) amount of HP and no special wound rule.

    I think he has scaly skin? Which translates as missile resist. He has a shield, so also gets the missile block chance from that. Charge defence from the shield rule seems reasonable.

    He has high toughness which best translates to armour (as does armour itself of course). I agree there is no basis for physical resist (or ward).

    I agree he's just an infantry character with a regular hand weapon. No reason for him to have bigger splash than Kroq-gar, say. Splash on a footlord is not necessarily a positive anyway as it reduces effectiveness where high hp models are in the mix.

    Should have worse MA/MD than kroq (think he had lower WS). Gor should however have higher strength as in TT.

    Taking all the above it looks like he might be worse at hitting than Kroq-gar and gets hit more (MA/MD). But he also hits harder (strength) and takes hits better (armour). Overall Kroq (on foot) and Gor should be well matched.
    Post edited by AENARlON on
  • AENARlONAENARlON Registered Users Posts: 865
    Actually now I've written that out I'm starting to think Gor-rok wouldn't be so bad as a choice. I like a nice balanced footlord character and we have too many lore breaking mounts. I think it was mostly the non-TT roided up Gor that I was objecting to. Still think Kroak would be a more loreful choice and give far more interesting battle mechanics but let's see which way they go.
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,170

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.
    Right on the money. Here we have (left to right) a generic Saurus Oldblood, Chakax, and Gor-rok.



    Is he Throgg sized? Nowhere even close. In game terms the best case scenario would be something similar to an unmounted Kroq-gar.
    The models are a poor representation tbh, I see the point you’re trying make, his size is exaggerated he’s bigger but not insanely bigger. Games Workshop says a space marine is much taller than a regular human, yet the models are practically the same size.


    The table tops rules are a good example but translate those same things to Total War and you have a character who was meant to be tanky being tanky.

    Thank you.
    From a model point of view, Grimgor is maybe barely bigger than a regular orc and as big as than any regular random Black Orc. In the fluff he's huge, by far the biggest Black Orc around. Pretty much Troll size.

    The model and base size were very important from a gameplay point of view in the TT. So it's black or white, either a small base with obviously a small model (it has to fit in a unit) or a big base.
    In the fluff there's a lot of grey...So yea, using models as justification for actual size is quite pointless.

    Gor-Rok is blatantly said to be a very big Saurus, bigger than your regular Old Blood, Kroq Gar and bigger than Chakax (who are normal in size). I'm not saying he's a Sky Titan, but saying he's normal size cause is model is normal size is simply wrong.
    If he was really that massive they'd simply have put him on a bigger base, like Throgg and dozens of other oversized characters. He's big for a saurus but still within standard humanoid proportions, so they put him on a standard mini base.
    Ok i guess. Way to completely ignore anything i just said while adding stuff i never did (where did i say Gor-Rok is massive again?).

    Anyways, do you want me to take a side-by-side picture of the models of Grimgor Ironhide (the biggest black orc warboss alive in the lore) and a regular Night Goblin? So you can see how absolutely pointless it is to use the size of models when discussing about the lore.
    Lore and TT were two very distinct things.

    Making Gor'Rok big seems like forcing him into a slot he simply doesn't fit. He's simply not a monster. That's not in his rules, and it's not in his model. He's simply a large Saurus.

    Now, if they want to do a Monstrous LL they've got an obvious choice; Nakai.


    Nakai literally has 1 single tiny paragraph worth of lore. It's literally a footnote in both 7th and 8th edition. He then gets name dropped once in another footnote in the Lustria expansion book. The end.
    No models, no rules, no items, nothing. No artwork (the one you linked is the 6th edition artwork for regular Kroxigors, which for some reason the wiki decided to give to Nakai. That's not him). Plus, making Nakai a leader of a faction (especially Itza) makes 0 sense, sorry.

    Gor-Rok literally fills the exact same role, while at the same time making perfect sense as Itza's faction leader, and being a fully-fledged LM character since 7th ed., with TT models, items, rules and a full page worth of lore.
    I don't see anyone saying Nakai should lead Itza, so not sure why this is the argument you're making. Most suggest him starting in Albion as if the Albion campaign happened and the Lizardmen won and built their temple there like they did in the lore.

    As for Gor-rok filling the same role? I don't really see how he is since, as many have pointed out, he's not a monstrous infantry size like Nakai would be. And if we're talking filling the same roles, Kroq-gar is Gor-Rok, but better and with mount options so I really don't think that's an argument you want to use for Gor-Rok.

    That said, it most likely will be Gor-Rok as that makes more sense and would be slightly easier to make as they'd basically just be Krog-gar on foot with a few new animations.

    I don't understand why people here have a crusade against people wanting something. Some people want Nakai, why is this something that upsets you? No one's upset that the OP wants Gor-Rok. People are free to like/want whatever they decide to.
    Sorry if I sound like i'm on some kind of crusade. I'm not, i enjoy speculation and warhammer so, might just get a little heated sometimes!
    Also, i've read so many people just dismissing Gor-Rok as some boring unknown, only to then mention Nakai right after, who somehow from being a footnote is now suddenly relevant and iconic. But anyways, already explained why Nakai doesn't fit at all.
    I'm also basing all my argumentations on the theory that we'll get Tehenhauin leading his own DLC faction (Cult of Sotek) and Itza as the FLC faction. I didn't mention this again cause i've already mentioned it several times in previous posts.

    Also, i don't agree with Nakai and Gor-Rok not possibly filling the same role. You wouldn't say Throgg (monstrous) and Grimgor (infantry sized) are all that different in their role and how the play would you?
    You can very well make infantry-sized lords feel either like a big heavy-weight(Grimgor) or like a light-weight (Sigvald for example).
    And again, with the notion that Kroq is just a better Gor-Rok. I am like 100% in disagreement with this thing.
    So Mannfred is just a better Vlad then? They are both Von Carstein vampires, both casters, but Mannfred has one entire additional lore of magic, all the mount options in the world, super regen, he can fly, has breath attacks, etc etc .
    Would you say Vlad plays like a worst Mannfred? Is Vlad then totally irrelevant and pointless in the game then? Yea i don't think anyone would say so. Vlad plays and feels great, and offer a whole different package compared to Mannfred. Anyways, i've already discussed enough about this in previous posts.
    There's enough stats, skills and numbers for CA to actually diversify stuff...

    Cheers!
    But when you have to choose it’s going to come down to preference.

    You have yours and I have mine.
    And that's all that matters. Everybody agreeing with each other would be boring! :D
    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.

    Add to that that the best suggestion I've seen for a special mechanic is co-opting Kroak as a mechanic and, well... I just don't see the appeal.

    If we are truly committed to an Itza start for the FLC lord... my vote goes to having Kroak directly over someone else using Kroak as a mechanic. Like rymintrinseca said, Slann are the leadership caste, and Lord Kroak is the one Lizardmen character that's been given stats in every single army book.
    I agree with your point of people exaggerating when it comes to Gor-Rok. Thing is, when i say Grimgor or Throgg i'm talking about the general role and playstyle, it's not a size comparison. So by that i mean a very though foot lord, high HP, high Phy. Res., a big splash attack, anti-infantry, charge defense and other goodies. The LM don't have such thing, no matter how hard you try to tell me Kroq plays the same.
    But where's he getting all that from?

    I appreciate your detailed analysis, however CA has shown time and time again that they won't and can't stick 100% to the limitations of the characters on the TT.
    They study the character, study what his general role was in the TT and what he brought to the table and then give it their own spin and adapt it to the Total War + Video game format. This means also having creative freedom when it comes to interpreting effects, abilities and character stats, in order to give him a unique role in the game that sets him apart from the other lords already present.
    I seriously doubt CA is going to be like "Whelp guys, he's got a mace, there goes our Anti-infantry idea. GG". Besides, giving a hulking "oversized" (8th ed.) reptilian beast swinging and smashing his mace around something akin to big splash attacks, anti-infantry and armor-pierceing really doesn't sound like a stretch to me.
    Plus, Gor-Rok was a hero on the TT. From a balance point of view he's obviously going to have hero-level stats and strengths. If CA goes with him, then he's going to be upgraded to a lord level character, and as such get more than what he had on TT.
    Just look at Lokhir and compare him to his hero-level TT counterpart. What he have ingame is a borderline unkillable infantry blender that is also one of the strongest duelists in the entire game. He really wasn't that on TT.

    I still think Gor-Rok is the best choice all things considered. I agree with Tiqtakto and Oxyotl bringing very unique playstyles, but i don't see how they could fit at the moment in the game. I'm all in with Kroak if they really put in the effort and make him something very unique and special. Since i don't see that happening being a FLC, i'd rather have him as a rite and faction mechanic.
    Tetto'eko is cool but to me he's the blandest named character in my opinion. He's the epitome of a Heavens caster on a palanquin. We have that already in the game in the form of generic Slann Lords. In battles he would play exactly like one, with a couple of unique abilities. Plus, we have a caster LL lord already and will be getting a Skink LL. He's 100% tied to Tlaxtlan so i don't see him fitting at all in the game.

    And Nakai they would have to completely make-up from top to bottom, items, rules, model, stats. And i don't see it happening at all considering all the fully-fledged named characters still available.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,966
    One distinction that applies to the Lokhir comparison is that TT characters are largely frozen in time, while TWW characters gain levels across the campaign. The TT Lokhir is probably a relatively low-level Lokhir, with the high-level Lokhir representing CA's vision of what Lokhir could be given the opportunity. We could call his dragon mount unloreful, for instance, but could we really say that if Lokhir did grow powerful enough to have dragons at his beck and call, he wouldn't claim one as his personal mount?

    Malekith, by contrast, probably isn't really accurate to his TT incarnation until he's well into his 30s.

    Now, the same observations can apply to Gor-Rok. However, at the bottom line, Gor-Rok's theme is just a Saurus that is a bit bigger and tougher than average (but still a 25mm base model rather than a 40mm base model). There's nothing that really makes him stand out.

    Tiqtak'to does (and could be moved away from Hexoatl for a similar reason as Kroq-Gar: he may actually be the best choice for a Konquata start if CA uses that, for instance). Oxayotl does. Kroak has LOADS of potential - and I don't really think being FLC is a barrier (and assuming he'd be FLC may not be a sure thing: Tehenhuin's obvious rival is already in the game, after all). You're being contemptuous of the Tetto'ekko possibility, but Tetto'ekko does have the heavenly conjunction rule and astrology expert theme that could be expanded into a faction mechanic... and there's really no guarantee that Itza will be the FLC lord's start. What if it was Tlaxtlan?

    Honestly, I'd even consider the Eternity Warden as a better choice, if not for his status of explicitly being a bodyguard rather than a commander.
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    edited December 2018

    Actually now I've written that out I'm starting to think Gor-rok wouldn't be so bad as a choice. I like a nice balanced footlord character and we have too many lore breaking mounts. I think it was mostly the non-TT roided up Gor that I was objecting to. Still think Kroak would be a more loreful choice and give far more interesting battle mechanics but let's see which way they go.

    Kroak loreful? Okay lord with 1 spell only, and cant attack. 🤔
    Are you gonna play this? Lorefuled
  • AENARlONAENARlON Registered Users Posts: 865
    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:


    Tetto'ekko, on the other hand, could have a mechanic related to prognostication, gaining bonuses or penalties based on the auguries, and obviously providing bonuses to Skink Priests with the Heavens lore.

    Gor-Rok... I'm not sure what strategic mechanics he might have beyond 'buff Saurus'. Given that CA seems to have been choosing LLs based on the potential for unique gameplay, I'm not convinced that's enough.

    Tetto'ekko is a glorified named Skink Priest. In battle he's a slow Heavens caster on a palanquin... sounds familiar? Yep, he's essentially a Slann Lord and plays exactly like one, with one or maybe two unique abilities of course. Yea they could make up some random campaign mechanic related to the moons and the stars but to me, that sounds quite dull. Bonus to Heaven Skink Priests? That sounds like the most narrow and specific bonus ever. Overall he wouldn't bring anything particularly new in my opinion.
    Also he is 1) the leader of Tlaxtlan and belongs only there, in no way would be ever remotely start in Itza to which he is completely unrelated (and i'm going by the assumption Itza is 100% going to be the FLC faction) and 2) he's another Skink lord, coming along Tehenhauin. That's just not going to happen. From a business point of view it would be pretty dumb and unattractive to have 2 Skinks coming along each other, and quite confusing for people who are not familiar at all with the Warhammer lore (which is a gigantic chunk of the player base).

    Yes Gor-Rok is a glorified unmounted Saurus. But that's something that the Lizardmen don't have at all. That is a completely new type of character for the faction. He would be the LM equivalent of Grimgor or Throgg AKA a completely new type of lord. And dont tell me that would play like Kroq cause that would simply mean that you're trolling. And nothing stops CA from giving him bonuses to Kroxigors as well. Thats not something only Nakai can just because he is a Kroxigor himself...
    That's the thing. People build up Gor-Rok as being some monstrous reptile the size of a troll and tough enough to stand at ground zero of a nuclear blast and complain about the lack of air conditioning.

    On tabletop...he's a Scar-Veteran. With one point higher Toughness than normal, and a special rule that makes him resistant to losing his two Wounds from one hit.

    That... really isn't much different in playstyle to Kroq-Gar on foot. I'm not even sure he's necessarily tankier, all things considered, since Kroq-Gar has more wounds and a ward save to balance out against Gor-Rok's higher Toughness and armour save.

    He's certainly no Throgg. At best he's a Grimgor, but tabletop Grimgor would reduce Gor-Rok to a fine paste. And I say this as someone who's much more of a Lizardmen fan than a greenskin fan.

    Add to that that the best suggestion I've seen for a special mechanic is co-opting Kroak as a mechanic and, well... I just don't see the appeal.

    If we are truly committed to an Itza start for the FLC lord... my vote goes to having Kroak directly over someone else using Kroak as a mechanic. Like rymintrinseca said, Slann are the leadership caste, and Lord Kroak is the one Lizardmen character that's been given stats in every single army book.
    I agree with your point of people exaggerating when it comes to Gor-Rok. Thing is, when i say Grimgor or Throgg i'm talking about the general role and playstyle, it's not a size comparison. So by that i mean a very though foot lord, high HP, high Phy. Res., a big splash attack, anti-infantry, charge defense and other goodies. The LM don't have such thing, no matter how hard you try to tell me Kroq plays the same.
    But where's he getting all that from?

    Even if, hypothetically, we were to boost his base stats to Lord level, he's not THAT tough by special character standards.

    None of his special rules justify physical resistance, certainly not high physical resistance. Maybe you could translate his near-immunity to instant kills as something along those lines, but apart from that all he's got on the tabletop is high Toughness, saurus hide, and an enchanted shield. High armour, possibly combined with a high missile resistance and melee defence to represent the shield, is about as far as that goes. If anything, Kroq-Gar deserves Physical Resistance more, through the Sacred Spawning of Xhotl.

    A big splash attack? He has a one-handed mace. The rules for it would probably translate into higher MA and weapon damage, but otherwise he'd be comparable to other Saurus characters on foot in that respect.

    Anti-infantry? Again, he has a one-handed mace. That doesn't grant anti-infantry or anti-large in any Total War precedents that I know of. He also has a fairly high Strength on the TT, so anti-infantry can't be justified through having multiple weaker hits that bounce off monster but which turn him into an infantry blender.

    Charge defence? Okay, that I can accept - he does have that rule on his shield that can punish chargers.

    But that's why I don't see why there's such a commotion around Gor-Rok. People keep coming up with things he COULD have, but most of those ideas don't reflect what he DOES have on the tabletop. It feels like they're trying to make him fit into a slot rather than actually genuinely reflecting what he was as a character on the tabletop, while other Lizardmen special characters have unique features that would be much more easily reflected in TWW. There's also nothing unique about him on the strategic level: he has no particular affinity with any given unit, he doesn't appear to be associated with any tactical or strategic thinking beyond 'bash the enemy's head in', and all things considered there's not really anything that would distinguish an army (or faction) lead by Gor-Rok from one lead by a generic Oldblood. Which is reflected by the best suggestions for what he'd do on the strategic level being co-opting Lord Kroak and something about better Saurus.

    Say what you like about the others, they've all got potential for more unique mechanics and themes than "A Saurus on foot, but tougher."

    Actually now I've written that out I'm starting to think Gor-rok wouldn't be so bad as a choice. I like a nice balanced footlord character and we have too many lore breaking mounts. I think it was mostly the non-TT roided up Gor that I was objecting to. Still think Kroak would be a more loreful choice and give far more interesting battle mechanics but let's see which way they go.

    Kroak loreful? Okay lord with 1 spell only, and cant attack. 🤔
    Are you gonna play this? Lorefuled
    In all of the lore he is the primary lizardman character, the only one for whom the old ones were not legends but contemporaries that he learned from directly. Even Mazdamundi started out as his student. Kroak was also a playable lord across all the lizardmen army books. So yes, if you're going off lore you would clearly put Kroak in ahead of someone like Gor-rok, who is only depicted as a hero, not a lord, and has a far lesser role in the lore. There is no argument about that.

    Battlefield mechanics are more a matter of personal preference. But yes, to me having a lord that can't attack (or with 1MA :)), and with only one spell, but an extremely powerful and spammable one, as well as strong passives, would be really unique and interesting. You have this slow, dead toad that you need to keep alive near the enemy (because the spell as well as his passives are an area effect around him).

    The nearest comparison I can think of would be the Brothers Ghorst cart, but focusing on damage, hexes and spell dispels rather than buffs and regen. Kroak would have far less combat capability than Ghorst and need even more protection, but also deliver far more power.

    To me this would be a much more impactful change in lizardman playstyle than another Saurus like Gor-rok, even if in an ideal world we'd have both.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,992
    edited December 2018

    Actually now I've written that out I'm starting to think Gor-rok wouldn't be so bad as a choice. I like a nice balanced footlord character and we have too many lore breaking mounts. I think it was mostly the non-TT roided up Gor that I was objecting to. Still think Kroak would be a more loreful choice and give far more interesting battle mechanics but let's see which way they go.

    Kroak loreful? Okay lord with 1 spell only, and cant attack. 🤔
    Are you gonna play this? Lorefuled
    Considering how they did Luthor Harkon i'm betting there's going to be a way to make Kroak return properly to the world on the Campaigns.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787

    Actually now I've written that out I'm starting to think Gor-rok wouldn't be so bad as a choice. I like a nice balanced footlord character and we have too many lore breaking mounts. I think it was mostly the non-TT roided up Gor that I was objecting to. Still think Kroak would be a more loreful choice and give far more interesting battle mechanics but let's see which way they go.

    Kroak loreful? Okay lord with 1 spell only, and cant attack. 🤔
    Are you gonna play this? Lorefuled
    Considering how they did Luthor Harkon i'm betting there's going to be a way to make Kroak return properly to the world on the Campaigns.
    Nonono, he said he wont like how will made CA, he want loreful. He said gor rok awful chose as lord. His shield to up was needed several Kroxigors. So he incredibly strong (magic world anything possible). So loreful gave him a 750 dmg is loreful. But he want dead slann, that aweke very rarely use 1 spell, keep sleep after.
  • BrynjarKBrynjarK Registered Users Posts: 835
    edited December 2018
    GN93 said:

    4uk4ata said:

    I'm hoping for Nakai as the FLC, frankly, as I think a named, big-ass Kroxigor half-covered in treasure would look incredible.

    Agreed. Give him Albion as a starting location and I'm set.
    Nakai is probably the worst possible choice for a Legendary Lord.

    1. He is a Kroxigor, they are far too simple-minded to ever be in a position of command. I don't think they're even capable of communication. They simply did not lead armies.
    2. He is not an always-present character. He does not pledge himself to a single city. He appears and disappears from the jungle. His entire character is a mysterious wanderer that shows up randomly. It would be totally conflicting having him commanding and capturing settlements.
    3. He is a very minor character, he never even had his own Table-Top model, that should be a clear indicator of how unimportant he is.
    4. People only want him because he's a Kroxigor and that is such a weak reason to shoe-horn him into a role he doesn't fit in. We should be asking for LL's based on their merits and if it actually makes sense. Not purely based on the fact he's a slightly different sub-race.
    5. Albion would be a awful Lizardmen start location. The climate is a 'uninhabitable climate' and you would be stuck in the corner of the map capturing little Norscan settlements with nowhere to expand. We also already have Kroq-Gar stuck in the corner, that role is already filled. We do not need another. We don't even have a proper Lustrian start position yet.
    1. The legendary lord will be a Skink with Nakai as summoned/etheral support. Ties up the missing Skink, Krox romance quite well. Sorry for blowing your mind.

    A LL skink doesnt make sense without proper support, like, lets say a LL gobling needs some backup too
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