Reworking Forest Stalker for Wood Elves

Sarmatianns#6760

Ok, this is a rather major issue that affects a lot how Wood Elves are played. Did some brainstorming, and with the help of a few other players, I think there's a rework that wouldn't hurt Wood Elves and would make playing against them a bit more interesting.

Currently, Forest Stalker bonuses include:
1) No penalty for large units
2) 15% MD bonus
3) +50% accuracy

Now, 1) and 3) aren't much of an issue. Plus 50% accuracy might sound scary, but in practice it, the downside of arrows hitting trees is much more impactful than bonus to accuracy, which is why you never see Wood Elf archers firing from the forests.

2) is very problematic. It encourages forest camping. While it can argued that pulling enemy into a forest fight is a skill, it's to abusable and encourages camping and blobbing.

What I propose is that instead of MD bonus, WE units get a flat speed and flat charge bonus increase that is active for a small period of time after they leave the forest. WE units could get an indicator like Vampire Coast units get with extra powder (could be a flashing Waystone for instance).

It would achieve 2 major things, A) it would no longer encourage forest camping - quite the opposite it would encourage leaving the forest to use the bonus, and it would a be also make Wood Elves play a bit more thematic and loreful.

So, the numbers are just ideas, but something like flat +5 Speed and flat +10 CB that is active for 20-30 seconds after leaving the forest.

That way Wood Elves are encouraged to attack, launch ambushes and in general creates better synergies between their units. Instead of just being damage dealers, you can use your skirmishers to pull the enemy apart, make him open for charges and ambushes and similarly. It's kind of what Wood Elves do in the lore, as well. Hit hard from multiple directions, isolate enemies, disrupt their formations and so on.

That way Wood Elves are encouraged to leave forests and their opponents are no longer discouraged of fighting them in a forest.

So, Forest Stalker bonus would work as:
1) No penalty for large units
2) Flat Speed and CB bonus that's active for 20-30 secs after leaving the forest
3) 50% accuracy

I was partially inspired by this battle. It happened roughly a year ago, so a few patches back, when WE were maybe a bit stronger and GS quite a bit weaker. It was one of the most beautiful battles I've ever seen and generally a playstyle I'd like to encourage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBhbBCWPBgI

Disposable Hero

Agreed

Lotus_Moon#2452

Ok the numbers are a bit off but the idea is good, +10CB would be crazy OP, speed +5 flat is fine or just +10% overall.

Does this mean the bonus would not work in the forest? only out of the forest? if so it kinda doesn't make sense or it would work in the forest and for 30sec after leaving the forest?

I would rather +10% speed and gain unspotable while moving through the forest. I don't like forest bonus being applied to any combat stats personally as it makes unit balancing hard.

Loupi#8512

agree, in WH1 it used to be a speed bonus iirc, it should go back to that.

Sarmatianns#6760

It would work both in the forest a for a small amount of time outside the forest. I don't think +10 CB would be that crazy OP, you'd still have a relatively small amount of time to make a good charge, and you can get blocked or intercepted etc...

But, it could go down to 7-8. Not as problematic as actual MD boost as it is only effective on a charge.

I prefer flat speed bonus so as not to make already fast units uncatchable, but rather make slower units a bit more mobile and easier to get in position

ImpartialHorse

I like the general idea! Very thematic!

I do think the speed buff might be a bit strong though, when used to kite as opposed to charge out of the woods.

Wood elf infantry are already fast, so they would be able to fall back through a forest, accelerate away and reform effectively...

... At the same time, the WE cav would be able to cover them with their own speed buff+strider giving them a double speed advantage vs any enemy cav who would be slowed and debuffed by the trees. Very thematic, and I'd love it to be a tech in campaign, but I'd argue it is too strong for MP without rebalancing the faction around it, which is tough as it is very map dependent.

If it was charge bonus and charge speed (so could only be used offensively), that would make it an appropriate ambush tool!

MakoTheMako

Improved movespeed and unspottable would be pretty good instead of combat stats, yeah.

Sarmatianns#6760

I'm not sure unspottable wouldn't be a much stronger buff compared to a small increase in CB.

Pocman#6295

Flat speed is impossible due to animations looking wonky. But yeah, I think a speed bonus while in the forest that last for a short period once you go out would be the best situation. Thematical, and far from unbalancing.

Sarmatianns#6760

shouldn't be impossible if it is a small bonus. The point of flat bonus is that it benefits slower units more.

A flat speed bonus on the slowest WE unit of Eternal Guard would raise them from 33 to 38, a 15% boost, which is considerably smaller than many speed boosts already available.

Same idea with a flat charge bonus... It's not really the point of having Wild Riders with speed of 100 and CB of 95 that hit from a forest, but to give Dryads, Wardancers and Wildwood Rangers... a bit more 'oompf' on the first strike.

Pippington#5795

Unspottable would make forest camping more problematic, not less. Particularly with hiding ground forces + large airforces.

hanen

Just remove it from multiplayer.

1. They dont need it.
2. Gameplay > fluff
3. They really dont need it!

HSK#4606

Nice idea. I agree.