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About the High elves and a bit of Bretonia (Multiplayer)

TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
Dear CA team!

Hello guys! Played this game for a while both campaign and multiplayer.

Realized about some stuff related to the High elves. When the game came in 1 year ago and I was kinda a rookie with the race I had the feeling that the roster was quite empty and i though u were going to solve the problem with the queen and crone DLC.

Before we get started with this Im rank 250 or so in multiplayer while I was around 500 1 week ago due to my inactivity during the summer. When the Aye Aye! patch came out i stared playing multiplayer again. I would say Im not a "Top" player but I had faced renown players like Gobbo king and Turin and either lost or won in a very close fight.

High elves are my multiplayer Main faction and I struggle to win with them while Im wining quite handy with other races I barely played.

Although I have no complains for the campaign, in multiplayer high elves feel so underwelming.

Ifantry:

In terms of infantry the roster its rly "naked" once u reach certain skill cap on multiplayer u know that going "elite armies" wont work cause if u get heavily outnumbered u wont overcome ur oponent.

So Sword masters and Phoenix guard are not an option that you can relay on.

Spearmen: are just a great unit overall.

White lions: For their cost they seriously and i mean seriously underpeform. Not sure if u noticed but all the elven races lack at have low Hp pools that they use to solve with Physical reistance or high meele defence. Well the lions have noone of that and they end loosing vs units that are way cheaper than them wich its quite odd to see. So they should get a reprice or a buff.

Missile infantry:

Here the HE also have so many weaknesses. Yes their archers have great range.

Normal archer: Overall great just like the spearmen (no AP damage)

Light archers: The unit its just useless, Its just normal archers with a high cost and not so great benefit from it. (no AP damage)
The unit should be diferent from the normal archers. My suggestion is to make them way shorted range but with higher AP damage that HE missiles lack at (we will talk about sisters of averlorn later havent forgot about them)

Lother sea guard: Unit its pretty cool but again we have 2 units that are just the same. In my oponion the non shielded one could be using dual swords with anti infantry to make it diferent to the shielded one. (no AP damage)

Shadow warriors: When I saw this guys coming I was so happy! Then I tested them and it was like ermm.... Damn this guys are just deep wood scouts that cost 150 mp more! and they dont pay for them selves. (No AP damage)

Sisters of Averlon: I see where you guys want to go with the unit but its not going there at all. You have to pay 1100 mp points to get "good" AP unit, its basically the only unit u should bring to deal with large armored monsters cause the phoenix guard cant keep up with them due that they are infantry and monsters tend to move way faster. So u basically need to bring the sisters that will end fighting light cav that will destroy them cause ur frontline struggles to hold almost every faction and its also a very expensive frontline.

Cavalry:

Here we dont need to talk about every single unit cause in fact as HE you have access to 1 cav. Shock cav. So you are going to lose the cav fights vs any race cause u dont have access to anti large cav with the HE (The Fireborn will get overruned with ease) I dont get the point where we get again silver helms and silver helms with shields. Its the same unit just with +8 meele def and bronze shield on the shielded one. It would be nice to once again make them diferent from each other the shielded one being shock cav and the non shielded maybe getting anti large. Dragon princes also should get some kind of buff making them more expensive but better fighting other cav. After all Dragon princes are supose to be like "grail knights" or "blood knights" and they cant compete with those units cause of their low AP and the non antilarge bonus.

Monsters:

So again we have 3 dragons right? Wrong. The diferences betwin dragons are that small that they are not substancial.

I would suggest that the dragons recive diferent traits so you decide wich one you will bring to the fight cause right now its just like the same beast. Atm a star dragon its just a sun dragon with lets say+15 xp incresed unit rank.

So about the Sun dragon, We had been told that this dragons are smallest of all of them, I would give them a bonus vs infantry since they are "small" and thats what they can fight the best "small units", Fast movement, low armor pretty much like an anti infantry unit that can be ofc gunned down but that its anoying to the infantry.

The moon dragon I would keep it as it is.

And the star dragon. The greates dragon in the Warhammer fantasy universe. Used by the elfs to fight Greater demons of chaos so he should get anti large. So from my point of view and to make it diferent from the other dragons, this beast should be slow, and I mean slow. But recive way higher armor since the dragon has completly grown and his scales are way thicker than the ones that the sun dragon has cause he is still young.

Lords:

HE have one of the best if not the best itself mounts for the lords. But none of the "legendary" ones have access to any single dragon. Okay I get what u think Tyrion on a star dragon its OP. Fine but sun dragons could fit most of the lords.

I mean its like if tyrion, teclis and alarielle had been forbitten from their kin to mount dragons wich makes no sense to me.

Also want to point that if HE dont recive more infantry unit that they clearly need when you play them in multiplayer the faction should recive the Nagarythe and the Averlorn unit roster.

The empire has the flaggelants that came with Volkmar

The dawi have the rangers that came with the clan angrun

the Dark elves have the sisters of slaughter that came with Hellebron

The greenskins have the gobblin units that came with the crooked moon

You get my point I hope.

By no means I want the HE to become the strongest faction in the game and Im more than okay to see some units nerfed if some of this changes get applied. I just think we have to many "same unit" on the HE while they already have a rly small roster.

And yeah! I said I was goint to talk about bretonia so here i go (dont worry it wont be that long)

We all get how Bretonia basically works:

- Peasants get butchered so hard

- Knights come to the rescue

Problem in MP its really easy counter massive cav armies so Imo bretonia should get some "foot knights" not a big number of them but maybe something like the aspiring champions, A small band of knights fighting along the peaseants just to give some kind of sustain to the Bretonian foot troops.

Well guys thank you for your time on reading this.

PD: If someone wants to disscuss this in a polite way Im more than fine to do it so but if your replies will be "thats trash/garbage"
I just want to let you know I had been doing tests on all of the HE units before posting this.

Thank you!

Take care!


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Comments

  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 1,156Registered Users
  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    Thats literally "I've cutted my hand your argument is invalid"
    hahaha its been a great conversation Caesar.
  • ArizonaBlack1ArizonaBlack1 Posts: 131Registered Users
    It appears to me, that your asking for the HE’s to be dominant in every aspect. Not sure if that’s going to be fun to play against.
  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    edited December 3
    @ArizonaBlack1

    Well You clearly missed the part where I literally said that I dont want them to be Op at all and that im more than fine with some units being weak. As they are now They have weak infantry weak cav and weak range ^^ Dont u just crush any single HE u find in ladder? cause I do it quite handy with rly meme builds

    "By no means I want the HE to become the strongest faction in the game and Im more than okay to see some units nerfed if some of this changes get applied. I just think we have to many "same unit" on the HE while they already have a rly small roster."

    Literally said plus pointed that Im more than fine with nerfs IF and i repeat IF SOME and I repead SOME of the changes are in.
  • RubzyRubzy Posts: 46Registered Users
    I would like White Lions to be more durable+"tougher" than swordmasters, while SM remain the best infantry overall. From what I've heard the WL are tougher than most HE because they wrestle mutant albino lions or something. So give them higher HP and WS, with low MD and MA, while swordmasters remain the same.
  • misterZmisterZ Posts: 246Registered Users
    Missile infantry:

    Here the HE also have so many weaknesses.

    understatement of the year
  • Lord of CinderLord of Cinder Posts: 242Registered Users
    White Lions rely too much on their Martial Prowess and once it is gone ,they are free kills. However, I've seen many people use Spearmen to absorb charges and then bring the WL for the kill. Seems in such situations (mixed with other units for support) they can pay off, but will otherwise underperform. Maybe they can use a slight buff?

    What you said about archers pretty much means you want to turn them into poor man's Darkshards.

    Sister of Averlorn are not supposed to be spammable. If you can do that, it would be like bringing only slightly worse version of a Waywatcher which would obviously be extremely OP.

    High Elven cavalry is just fine, imho. Just because it is not mean to counter other heavy cav, it doesn't mean they are weak. They serve a purpose. Illiryan cav archers are incredible hybrid unit for their cost, for example.

    Dragons are different when it comes to stats and breath attacks. Star Dragons are already strong and you want to make them absolute horrors. If what you suggest comes to pass they will need huge price increase because they will have virtually no weakness.

    The problem with HE lords is that once they are mounted on a dragon, you don't bring a lord with the dragon as a bonus, you bring a dragon with the lord as a side benefit. If everyone could have access to the same mounts, there would be absolutely no reason to bring regular lords at all. The LL ones would simply be better by default every time.

    The HE did not receive infantry because they did not need it. They already have infantry which can serve every possible purpose in the game, not to mention some of the most powerful units - You won't claim Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters suck, would you?


    And yeah, what you suggest is exactly what you stated you don't want to do. You want to eliminate the weaknesses of the faction you enjoy and thus making them even stronger than they already are. It is not like HE are bad or anything atm. There are factions which are much worse and need way more attention - see greenskins. YOU JUST CANT HAVE IT ALL.

    HE have good cavalry, but not one that is meant to counter enemy cav. This is one of the weaknesses of their otherwise very balanced roster. Bretonnia is supposed to win the cav fight, it is what they specialize for. It is ironic that you want to make their already crap infantry even worse while suggesting they remove the vulnerabilities of the HE. Do you even REALIZE THE HYPROCISY?

    And yes, HE are not supposed to beat Brets, because they are their hard counter. Each faction has one which beats them and Brets are the bane of HE.
  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    @Lord of Cinder

    Right finally someone trying.

    I agree on what u said about the lions they need a buff or maybe just be the a tanky brawly unit.

    Ofc u cant spam sisters. but if u check the wood elves u have the glade guard with fire shafts that got ap so its not weird what I ask for. So ur wrong

    About cav Are you even trying it? Its literally the only faction that has no antilarge cav despite lore telling u that Dragon princes blood knights and grail knights are on the same tier in terms of cav. So ur wrong again

    About the dragons ok u want them to be the same unit just with more xp rank instead of a another variation. Mby we should give to the demygriph knights the same stats that knights of the empire have so we keep getting less and less variation of units for ur own good.

    HE lords are the only lords that cant have access to those mounts. Karl franz can ride a griphon and u will still go for the general of the empire if u want to go cheap so I dont buy that argument either.

    This 1 I like, Hoeth and Phoenix guard " You won't claim Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters suck, would you?"

    HAHAHAHA

    Ofc those units suck and they suck rly hard. Hoeth have 6000 hp and 90 armor any single spell AP or non will destroy them or atleast get rid of the martial buggness they have. Phoenix guard r good vs large yet any "good" charge not a frontal one ofc will destroy them absolultey hard, They also get destroyed by any magic or artillary just like the hoeth due to that Low hp pool. Srsly I rly liked this 1 cause u clearly proven u dont play Multiplayer at all saying Hoeth and Phoenix are "Great" units xd

    I am not suggesting to eliminate weaknesses Im suggesting to bring HE into High skill cav competitive play, I dont know what's ur rank on ladder but u will barely see any HE beat a good Ork player cause orks along with beastman have just overall a great costeffective roster while HE dont at all.

    And to conclude, What u call a hard counter to the HE turns out I dont buy it at all either, Im beating the crap out of bretonia with any elven faction as I pointed bretonia relys 2 much on the cav to win vs those great lancers.

    If i pick HE in ladder its to give a chance to the oponent Im facing and turns out most of people on my rank after the battle agree with me on that "HE suck hard" while after that battle I fight that guy again with any other faction and Its either a close lose or a close win while as HE u get horribly stomped.







  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    edited December 3
    @Lord of Cinder
    And now suddenly the erased comentary came back xd sorry for the double response mate!

    **** my life cus the whole response I gave to u got erased just because :D so here I go again =(

    First of all about lions i agree with u 100%

    Archers its simple Wood elves have those fire shafts that just do what I suggested so I dont buy ur argument on sisters cus they r just like way watchers while the other HE archers are the same and the same and the same. But ofc WE should be better archers

    Cav its just garbage. There is no way u can counter my argument acording to the lore dragon princes are on the same tier as grail knights and blood knights so no and if u try it again no again. The only faction with heavy cav that has no antilarge or AP so NO and NO.

    Dragons fine ur fine with the same dragon recolored. We should just give the same stats to the demigryph variants so we all get bored to death.

    Lords, U still use the general of the empire on a griffin if u cant affort Karl franz cause its cheaper so again No and more No

    Hoeth and Phoenix guard. Here u clearly let me know that u dont play multiplayer often or that u are not in a high tier rank cause if u are u know that both units have 6000 hp and by magic or arti that unit is gone so yes those 2 units dont suck but they are extremly stupid to brin in MP most of times.

    Now U even dared to compare the might up High elves to the super costeffective pimp stomper orks. Im telling ya mate whenever I go HE its to give a clear advantage to my oponent due their martial shitstery on battle performance. Orks beat the crap out the HE and if u wanna test it find any decent ork player and check it by ur self. I m loosing terribly hard vs any ork player and when i change the race I sudenly overcome him "magically"

    K "bretonia" counters elves. Again no and more no I barely lost a single game as HE DE or WE vs bretonia and the people that belives that r just not that good. Add me on steam and I can show u if u dont wanna belive me.

    Take care mate



  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 523Registered Users
    I disagree with almost everything you wrote. HE units are all about knowing which matchup to use them in. They have few universally/near universally good units, but that's fine, just gotta switch things up depending on opponent.

    On topic of HE:
    HE elite infantry, while niche, can be very functional if utilized in the right matchups, and if used correctly can be stupidly OP
    WL's are a bit weak, but hit well above their weight class while MP is up. I think a gentle boost to hp is what they need, but that's about it.

    Archers: Light armour gives you an archer thats still reasonably priced while being much more resistant to non-AP damage(~20% difference), this can make a big difference when squaring off against things like mortars or masses of non-AP shooting, including affecting time to kill.
    LSG are fine the way they are, the shields are there if youre going vs a shooting faction, the unshielded are there if youre poor/going vs a shielded faction.
    Shadow warriors pay 150 for melee stats and that makes them really good in MU's like skaven or wood elves.
    Sisters of Averlorn might be a smidge overpriced. That aside, you usually bring them to kill a few key targets, while other units do the heavy lifting, so im not sure its that much of an issue.

    Cavalry:
    Silver helms are fine, just horribly overshadowed by DP's, also, youre missing all of the ellyrian reavers/chariots, which are really solid in their own right.
    DP's are not "like GK's/BK's" theyre inferior in lore and in this game. You basically get better tankiness, better or equal performance vs infantry, and all on a budget. Sure you cant win cav engagements, but with proper support tools its still doable, or just use them as a supplement to your mainline.

    Dragons/Phoenixes:
    Phoenix needs a bombardment fix to make it not stupidly taxing on micro, frostheart phoenix maybe needs a cost cut by like 50, but both are decent.

    A star dragon is head and shoulders better than a moon or sun dragon. It's not a few chevrons worth, its literally 30 armor, massive WS increases and something like +10-+20 on the MA stats. The only dragon I think MIGHT need slight changes is moon dragon, like maybe +10-15 armor to stand out more from sun dragon, but otherwise for their cost the dragons are what they should be. You can already go toe to toe with most monsters by bringing a star dragon, especially with magic support.

    Those lords absolutely dont need dragon mounts. Allarielle and Teclis border on broken, and Tyrion has gotten a huge power spike with the addition of AP to his attacks.

    Dont really agree with the averlorn/nagarythe additions. I do believe someone said shadow walkers should just be the RoR for shadow warriors, which I can agree with, but the tree units are a niche little thing for averlorn and honestly hardly used as is. HE dont really struggle that hard in the infantry department. They struggle hard in dealing with masses of heavy cav, but thats mostly just the case with brettonia, and that situation has slowly been improved imo. Still a tough fight for HE, but more than winnable.

    Brettonia is fine the way it is. Some of their units need a viability buff(blessed trebs, PK's/RPK's) but by and large theyre perfectly competitive despite being relatively predictable.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

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  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    Well all you point on paper seems legit, then u play them and realize that the faction barely wins vs defesive armies and that they have no chance against offensive ones. And its as i 've said HE have very small roster and there is plenty of their units that are just the same one instead of giving to it another role Just try to climb on ladder only using HE and you will see what Im talking about ^^ not sure if u play them or you just struggle figthing them
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,798Registered Users
    Triumph said:

    Well all you point on paper seems legit, then u play them and realize that the faction barely wins vs defesive armies and that they have no chance against offensive ones. And its as i 've said HE have very small roster and there is plenty of their units that are just the same one instead of giving to it another role Just try to climb on ladder only using HE and you will see what Im talking about ^^ not sure if u play them or you just struggle figthing them

    Please listen to wyvern, i say that as a he main. He is pretty spot on and about the only unit I agree with your assessment is that the wl could use -25 gold cost.
  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    Yeah guys u can keep digging it down, but in all the streams and tournaments we r watching this days HE lose and then lose and lose again its not worthit to try to open the eyes of those who dont want to. Its the faction that lacks the most stuff by far.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,798Registered Users
    Triumph said:

    Yeah guys u can keep digging it down, but in all the streams and tournaments we r watching this days HE lose and then lose and lose again its not worthit to try to open the eyes of those who dont want to. Its the faction that lacks the most stuff by far.

    ... or maybe you should not be so stubborn and convinced that you're right, there is a lot of experience on these forum's and wyvern described it well.
  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    well as an HE main player that i am everything i said its just fair from my point of view. I wanna give u advantage? I just go HE, I wanna stomp the oponent with ease? I wll just go empire, dark elves or wood elves ^^ There is plenty of HE players that just keep loosing and loosing and i had found plenty of people agreeing with me. from the around 150 that readed this Im pretty only a few complained. And there is nothing I need to learn about the HE, well maybe I should learn that they are not the high elves described in the lore but a weak elven subfaction :P
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,799Registered Users
    edited December 3
    up to some minor stuff I disagree with, like Star and Sun Dragon differences and Tyrion riding a Dragon, you're spot on with most of your ideas.

    Buffs to HE and advocating for reason however are not welcome here, lest you get bashed and called an "Elf fanboy".

    They will tell you to soak it up, that White Lions are a good infantry, not everyone can have Chaos Warriors GW, Longbeards, Grave Guard, you should just accept to have a mainline overcosted unit. They will give a loose statement like "HE not an infantry faction, sorry hehe only Chaos deserves the goodies!".

    They will tell you that Sisters of Avelorn are "amazing in melee" and that the melee stats are worth something (although there's never a situation where you want them to be trading in melee since their main idea is shooting. On top of that they trade very badly vs enemy missiles due to 40 armor).

    By the way, Sisters of Avelorn are actually decent in the VC matchup and HE haters will tell you that 1/15 matchup fully justifies their cost because their attributes (flaming, magical attacks, melee stats vs summons) actually justify their cost in this matchup. Their attributes are useless baggage in the other matchups but this doesn't matter to these people.

    They will tell you that not everyone can have AP AL cav, HE again should get the short end of the stick. They even nerfed Dragon Princes twice (!) while units like Blood Knights and Grail Knights stay untouched. Silver Helms in particular are a total troll unit, just compare them to similarly costed units like Reiksguard, Knights of the Realm, Cold One Knights to see how underpowered they are. They're the Empire Knights of the HE roster, costing 200 more. They will tell you something vague like "HE not a cav faction hehe sorry! You better suck it up!". Dragon Princes are somewhat decent although only OK and don't really hold up vs specialized units. I'm generally fine with them although I don't think they deserved the -5% phys. resist. nerf from last patch.

    They will tell you that Bolt Throwers are an A M A Z I N G piece of artillery because it outsnipes enemy artillery in ranged duels. They don't care that compared to DWF Bolt Thrower it costs 150g more for a useless ability (multishot), that for 100g more you get a Great Cannon which is a MASSIVE upgrade in everything (range, damage, penetration...) and after the last patch, even its niche of sniping artillery got taken by the Empire Cannon which now holds the same sniping potential. This artillery piece is really weak, does really low damage and has no splash/penetration. Even vs single entities, not that impressive. On the plus side it fires relatively fast I guess so you're less likely to lose it early on and more likely to get back part of the investment.

    Some units in HE roster are decent. You listed them: Archers, Spearmen, I will even disagree and say that Shadow Warriors are worth the upgrade on Deepwood Scouts. Dragon Princes, all Dragon variants (best one feels the Moon Dragon in spite of 50 armor), Dragon Princes, Noble, all LLs except Alith Anar, Ellyrean Reaver Archers, HE Princess. This is the entirety of the HE roster that performs well and can go into the match without shame. It's pretty thin, notably only has 1 heavy cav unit and no "punching" infantry or artillery or AP missiles. Pick anything else, you're asking for trouble unless you somehow outplay your opponent.



    It's not surprising, in light of all this, that if you want to be top250 like you are, all you can play with HE are some kiting builds and some builds with Teclis/Alarielle + net + Sisters and double Noble. Alarielle in particular has been carrying HE super hard for 2 patches now, in a way I wish they removed her because although she's my favorite HE Lord lore-wise, it would again show how lacking the HE roster is.

    Oh and don't get me started on Martial Prowess. I'll be concise here: it's great on Phoenix Guard and Dragon Princes, OK on Spearmen and Swordmasters (who have pathetic HP for their cost so it doesn't save them) and a burden on everything else.

    The list of units that are overpriced because supposedly MP should save them is so long: Silver Helms (the reason they cost 900-1000g is supposedly that their "bonus trait" is MP, every other cav in the price range has a similar "bonus" ability, Knights of the Realm for example have increased WS and AL, but MP on them is trash and worthless since if cavalry it taking heavy damage, you're generally doing it wrong), LSG (shields), White Lions, Chariots, Sisters of Avelorn, I would list more if there were more infantry options.

    Everything other than kiting and specific builds to counter some factions (like nets + mass archers + double noble vs VC) is literally trash vs competent players. Sadly CA seems to balance around average players (rank 5000-10000 I'd guess) and sadly HE vs average players who bring 6k gold of infantry, no cavalry, excessive amount of artillery or rush their lord in head first are actually not that bad and this is their curse because it inflates their winrates giving CA the impression the faction is OK as a whole.

    On a side note, Bret-HE matchup is still stupidly broken. Given opponents of equal skill, there is absolutely 0 chance for HE to win. Bret player can basically pick whatever he wants, even trash like Pilgrims and Trebs as long as he brings 3x GK who kill the whole army. HE needs to pick perfectly and even then he needs to be better than Bret player to win. I wonder how many patches this will go on for.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,798Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    I disagree with almost everything you wrote. HE units are all about knowing which matchup to use them in. They have few universally/near universally good units, but that's fine, just gotta switch things up depending on opponent.

    On topic of HE:
    HE elite infantry, while niche, can be very functional if utilized in the right matchups, and if used correctly can be stupidly OP
    WL's are a bit weak, but hit well above their weight class while MP is up. I think a gentle boost to hp is what they need, but that's about it.

    Archers: Light armour gives you an archer thats still reasonably priced while being much more resistant to non-AP damage(~20% difference), this can make a big difference when squaring off against things like mortars or masses of non-AP shooting, including affecting time to kill.
    LSG are fine the way they are, the shields are there if youre going vs a shooting faction, the unshielded are there if youre poor/going vs a shielded faction.
    Shadow warriors pay 150 for melee stats and that makes them really good in MU's like skaven or wood elves.
    Sisters of Averlorn might be a smidge overpriced. That aside, you usually bring them to kill a few key targets, while other units do the heavy lifting, so im not sure its that much of an issue.

    Cavalry:
    Silver helms are fine, just horribly overshadowed by DP's, also, youre missing all of the ellyrian reavers/chariots, which are really solid in their own right.
    DP's are not "like GK's/BK's" theyre inferior in lore and in this game. You basically get better tankiness, better or equal performance vs infantry, and all on a budget. Sure you cant win cav engagements, but with proper support tools its still doable, or just use them as a supplement to your mainline.

    Dragons/Phoenixes:
    Phoenix needs a bombardment fix to make it not stupidly taxing on micro, frostheart phoenix maybe needs a cost cut by like 50, but both are decent.

    A star dragon is head and shoulders better than a moon or sun dragon. It's not a few chevrons worth, its literally 30 armor, massive WS increases and something like +10-+20 on the MA stats. The only dragon I think MIGHT need slight changes is moon dragon, like maybe +10-15 armor to stand out more from sun dragon, but otherwise for their cost the dragons are what they should be. You can already go toe to toe with most monsters by bringing a star dragon, especially with magic support.

    Those lords absolutely dont need dragon mounts. Allarielle and Teclis border on broken, and Tyrion has gotten a huge power spike with the addition of AP to his attacks.

    Dont really agree with the averlorn/nagarythe additions. I do believe someone said shadow walkers should just be the RoR for shadow warriors, which I can agree with, but the tree units are a niche little thing for averlorn and honestly hardly used as is. HE dont really struggle that hard in the infantry department. They struggle hard in dealing with masses of heavy cav, but thats mostly just the case with brettonia, and that situation has slowly been improved imo. Still a tough fight for HE, but more than winnable.

    Brettonia is fine the way it is. Some of their units need a viability buff(blessed trebs, PK's/RPK's) but by and large theyre perfectly competitive despite being relatively predictable.

    Good post, I'll just fill in a few spots where I may disagree slightly.

    Infantry: exactly, the only "spammable" unit is spears, and all units are functional. I think the WL design is fine, I'd like to see a -25 gold cost, or perhaps even better lose strider trait and -50, but over all an interesting unit. What I really would like to have but probably can't have is High elf swordsmen for like 450 gold, that would be awesome.

    Archers: Yeah, SoA are much better now though with more AP so it's not far off now. Maybe a tad over priced still in all matchups except vs VC.

    Cav: SH are cool units, especially the ones without shields for 900 are cost efficient. Reavers for 600 is a hidden gem actually.

    Dragons: I disagree about the moon dragon, I think it's the best one. The star dragon is powerful and all, but a bit slow and clunky for my taste and I really don't like the narrow breath of the SD. The great thing about dragons though is that they are so versatile. I would not like them pigeonholed into BvL or BvI, they are all great units in different flavors. The sun is awesome vs low armor, faster and more agile, while the Star is more brawly but a bit clunky. In any case they are all very versatile and great the way they are.

    Phoenixes: Not perfect, but OK. I think the frostheart should have the chill area with a slow, that would help the Bret matchup and would be an interesting addition. Otherwise -50g, it's too close to the fire dragon in cost. The flamespire I think should have the rebirth redesigned to something not so random. Proc every time but only to half amount of health would be better for all. The bombing interface need work too for sure.

    In addition: Shadow warriors are excellent units, really good and can be useful in almost every matchup.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,799Registered Users
    edited December 3
    also, regarding tournaments: many pros will tell you that "HE are a decent tournament faction but they don't main/like HE so they don't pick them", but I've found that the truth is that while HE have no bad matchups, aside from Bretonnia, if both opponents have equal skill, numbers do play an advantage like you state in your OP. On top of this, aside from perhaps Star Dragon builds or Net of Amyntok builds, the biggest problem with HE is that they have limited upside in tournaments while having theoretical massive downside (1 micro mistake and you're basically out).

    Sure, you will say HE have nets, Noble, breaths, but look what some other factions can bring. 3x GK and a Fay aura. Blood Dragon lord on Hellsteed or Zombie Dragon with 2x Blood Knights that WILL hit healing cap (75% of 1700g x2 value generated). Karl Franz, while not being OP per se, is one of the hardest-hitting LLs in the game with insane CB, WS and BvL and can be healed.

    Sarthoarel with missile, magic resist and able to cast 2x FT per game

    What does HE have, for example, for melee Lords? Stupid Prince on Star Dragon with Deadly Onslaught, blade of Bel Korhadris and Charmed Shield (2 lol items).

    It's no wonder that if you wanna counter someone by outmeleeing them, your first and second picks will be something like Chaos (Kholek) and VC. If you wanna outshoot them, you will probably pick Vampire Coast or Empire. If you wanna do wolf pack tactics, you can pick Beastmen who also work as counterpick in a few matchups, notably HE and LZM. HE, in contrast, don't shine at anything. They don't do anything best.
  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    @Green0
    **** off bro where u had been all this time?! Finally someone talking with sense

    Pleyers to an HE be like:

    - U cant have good infantry
    - U cant have good archers
    - U cant have good cav

    HE are op

    That makes sense to me, well said green!

    @Disponsable
    shadow warriors are trash and if u cannot see that u should start playing multiplayer and not campaign where u can rush backwards with 20 peasant squads and beat AI chosens. Dragons are kinda a noob pick most of times and whenever u wanna see that lets 1 v 1 and u wll see how "STRONG" dragons are and its as this guy green said The silver helms are good compared to zombies cause for 900 bretonia lands a squad of knights of the realm that will teach u how good those silver helms are. Srsly dude do you even played this game? cause if something stings more than anything in the HE roster its White Lions Silver Helms and Shadw Warriros. So srsly u can argue that Dragon princes are "decent" but this 3 units u mentioned cost a ton and they get nothing done (DAMN IM A RAPER NOW) so yeah man cmon try being serious.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,798Registered Users
    Oh. My. God.

    That's hilarious! Thank you, you made my day!

    Congratulations on top 250.
  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    edited December 4
    Thats the best argument u could make to defend lions shadow warriors and the silver helms to be honest!
    Try reading what Green said so u get enlighted too =) HE r weak and thats a fact.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,799Registered Users
    edited December 4

    Oh. My. God.

    That's hilarious! Thank you, you made my day!

    Congratulations on top 250.

    it's not that rank matters a lot in this game - but if you want to hit consistently high ranks, assuming you don't draw kite, corner camp etc... you have to either a) counterpick faction to your opponent, b) play a faction that has only good matchups (VC, Chaos, maybe DE...) or kite like Lotus does.

    Otherwise, with "balanced" armies, even good players can lose to relatively new players due to bad builds or being outpicked. Watch Lotus (when he plays non Elves), Xiphos, even Ninjahund for proof of this statement.
    Triumph said:

    Thats the best argument u could make to defend lions shadow warriors and the silver helms to be honest!
    Try reading what Green said so u get enlighted too =) HE r weak and thats a fact.

    I wouldn't go as far as saying HE are weak in the "traditional" sense, BUT unlike many factions that can be VERY lax with their builds (e.g. Chaos, VC, in the end it doesn't matter too much if you pick Javelins or Throwing axes in most matchups... HE need to counterpick PERFECTLY to the opponent or something close to that and then they can win (normally they're even favored then) but generally lose otherwise.

    Some examples:

    Chaos
    - Core of Sisters of Avelorn (counter Kholek and Chosen GW) + 1 Swordmaster and rest "free". Does well vs Chosen GW, does very badly vs Chosen shields, wide builds Sarthorael. From Chaos point of view, picking Kholek isn't autoloss on the other hand if you face Sisters like for HE is seeing wide build/Chosen with chields (60% missile block btw, 5% more than "regular" silver shield).
    - Core of White Lions (trade sort of decently vs CW GW and Marauders, allow to go wide). Get outtraded by Chosen (any type).
    - Swordmasters gamble: good vs Chosen GW and insane vs Chosen Shields, very vulnerable to Marauder harass and FoB and charges by high mass entities (Kholek, Dragon Ogres).
    - now I'm aware the are builds like the one Lotus plays that involve several "stages" to the game from sniping Hellcannon to making sure the Metal caster dies early on... but let's just say that I prefer to win with "balanced builds". I don't think Swordmasters should have a field day in a battlefield shot by a Hellcannon but I don't want to trade 1 Phoenix for 1 Hellcannon either and then resistance stack with Phoenix Guard. It's just not the playstyle I favor.

    VC
    Now here I don't want to make a list. Let's just say that the "meta" HE list is either a list that boxes with resistance stacking (I find this extremely boring and think this playstyle should go), or a list that uses Net with a lot of Spearmen and various variations of how many of Sisters of Avelorn and LSG/archers you want. It's true that the "luck of the draw" here is generally in the HE favor but I've seen some VC lists surprise the HE, particularly the mass Spearmen/archers/SoA/double Noble setup. Overall it's not as HE sided as VC players love to claim. It's just that there are a lot of bad VC players out there. What I've seen is that Bats, Blood Knights, a fast Lord (optional: on Dragon) and sometimes Wolves with 1-2 GG max and rest Skeletons and Zombies often help a lot.

    Empire
    Here you always have potential Steam Tank surprise factor (I even got cheesed twice by a double Stank + Regrowth + Flagellants + Volkmar build), Cannons are ALWAYS good vs HE and Volkmar is not bad either. Demigryphs are also a solid pick and Empire has access to a lot of builds magic-wise. Overall I'd say this is one of the matchups where the versatility of the Empire shines because almost the whole roster is playable vs HE. Again it's not impossible for HE to win but Empire can be much more liberal in army building than HE (for example, a Swordmaster/Phoenix Guard pick generally gets punished hard, whereas 1 Greatswords is generally a bad pick but can still do OK).

    ... (many more factions, notable inclusions are Greenskins, Bretonnia, can't really make a list of all).

    So I don't know, if I play balanced, non-optimized builds, to me HE feels like playing a lottery sometimes. Either opponent magically picks 3x Chosen shields into my 2x Swordmasters and I win HARD or I get stomped by a super wide build.

    There is no inbetween and this feels incredibly frustrating when playing HE because it feels random.

    Easiest faction to play for me in QM is without a doubt VC, probably also my highest winrate one. I've gone against good players even, more often than not even with their best efforts they can't snipe so many elites being constantly healed, Mortis Engine melting their infantry core and I often pick a Dragon too cuz why not. VC to me feel incredibly easy, almost auto-pilot, I can't understand how people can claim that this faction is high skill.
    Post edited by Green0 on
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,799Registered Users
    edited December 4
    anyway, tl;dr: HE midrange options could use buffs, would make the faction so much better. Why the devs don't realize this is a mystery to me. Probably all those noobs crushing their Greenskin Lord head first into White Lions making them seem a good unit when they're not.

    Specifically I would like:
    - WL -50g - sorry, this unit is not worth more, not at 24 MD with 5500 HP, only half of those with MP. On top of that they don't have charge defense which would make them somewhat decent since all it takes is 1 cav/monster charge to literally ruin 800g. Or give them improved stats, these guys has S6 in TT, had the Stubborn rule and were generally pretty badass... the TW version doesn't give them justice at all but the again, buff their stats and you have another Swordmasters so I prefer -50g. Remove Bonus in Forest if necessary, keep it for campaign players, in MP it's an incredible burden and it's tiresome to hear people constantly reming you that "they have missile resistance and bonus in forest accounted in their cost".
    - Silver Helms: -50g regular, I'm unsure if -50g or -75g the shielded version. At 1000g, you have to be stupid to pick these guys, 1000g is the price of a mid-high tier cavalry. ANY cavalry in this price range has a useful rule that makes it very impactful in a certain situation. Cold One Knights: AP + AL, these guys are very strong vs Lord and other cav. Everyone knows not to **** around with them. KotR: Lance + BvL + increased WS (37!). Reiksguard (1150g) has 120 armor (by the way, armor returns are increasing the more armor you have), 40 WS and very good stats even in prolonged melee. Silver Helms didn't need more Charge Bonus, that's a super situational buff that while useful doesn't address the fact that for 1000g they are just not impactful enough because all they can do is kill archers and poke at armored infantry. Or give them BvL, but it would be unloreful. I would go the cost reduction way, HE need options to go wide more than anything currently.
    - Swordmasters: -50g, these guys are almost never seen. A gamble unit vs Chaos, alright only vs VC and Dwarfs. Again, 2 matchups out of 15 where a unit CAN be picked don't make a unit good. They're a good unit overall though, almost there so the buff doesn't need to be massive.
    - Sisters of Avelorn: I guess the useless melee stats are here to stay along with the 40 armor that makes them super vulnerable to cavalry and missile fire. -100g, it's embarrassing to pay 1100g for +35 range and slightly better weapon damage compared to, say, Empire Handgunners who cost 600 and have access to the same tools (Nets, better support cavalry, better screening, artillery support...). In general, the price of a hybrid unit of this type should be something like 1.20*(price melee equivalent + price exclusively ranged component). Currently the multiplier seems to be somewhere around 1.5, which means that you should get 0.75 value out of each component, which is simply unrealistic. I'll even say that these girls are worth 850-900g top in my opinion but let's start with 1000g and they we'll see.
    - (optional) I'd like to see a buff to Bolt Throwers too, particularly to multi-shot (less spread to account for how people spread their units in MP) but this is not a priority.


    Give these 4 buffs and HE might do something other than kiting at high rank. More importantly, the variety of builds they could bring would scare the opponent just like the opponent scares HE sometimes with double BK setups or Kholek pick... which would make mindgames fair and less one-sided.
  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    Yup well said mate. i hope CA reads this ^^ i mean the reasons are there hope they answer =)
  • another505another505 Posts: 215Registered Users

    About the Bret part

    Its not really needed for bret to have dismounted knights (virtue of empathy) Bret does need a weakness and its basically mass armored AL units. Footsquire is able to somewhat to do the job
    but their heroes need to do a bigger role in their roster in a faction all about cavs and heroism

    A new dismounted paladin that focuses on giving buffing to infantry would be helpful for more interesting bretonnia playstyles.

  • TriumphTriumph Posts: 30Registered Users
    @another505

    Yeah well the unit I was suggesting was like the aspiring champs, big buff to infantry and very low on number you know =) but yeah it seems fair to me what u have suggested too.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,799Registered Users
    edited December 4
    Triumph said:

    Yup well said mate. i hope CA reads this ^^ i mean the reasons are there hope they answer =)

    CA read more the Balancing Discussions part, and even there, you can write a 10000 word essay backed by data, they get to make the final decision based on their view of the game and internal statistics. I tried to advocate for a cost reduction for Silver Helms and WL in particular this patch, all we got in return is +6CB on SH, no buff to WL and net nerf to DP (why did the RoR version also get -50g btw? No scaling or just lazy balancing?). I think CA is just content with HE being a middle of the pack faction while driving the notoriously loved Undead factions as well as new releases (V.Coast) to OP levels so I suspect this "power level" and internal balancing are here to stay because CA thinks White Lions for example are how a 800g infantry should be, doesn't matter that they get outclassed by so many units. Statistics probably back White Lions being OK, because while they do underperform individually, often HE get rescued by clutch Dragon breaths or especially Alarielle healing... as a result, White Lions winrates go up every time there is also Alarielle in the build say.

    Also, that section is full of toxic anti-Elf advocates. I strongly discourage you to initiate topic about HE there, the general consensus is that they're a strong faction for whatever reason.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 212Registered Users
    The only, and I repeat only things that HE need are

    Light Armor Archers need greater incentive to be taken. 25 armor and 4 MD for a unit that is more or less equally versed as the normal one in shooting and still fragile in melee. With superior range to all archers but waywatchers you will always score first blood so worrying about trades is mostly a nonfactor.


    Spearmen might, emphasis on the might part, be a smidge overpriced. They're incredible units if you look at their stats and what they do, but the hole in the HE roster is clearing chaff effectively. If you want to get rid of something like Chaos marauders in enough time to matter you typically need White Lions or some very masterful use of damage spells like Flock of Doom. While spamming white lions could achieve this, you'll lack width in doing so. From 500 to maybe 475 at best.



    Now that aside, other things that HE could get would be nice to have, but in no way helps them or their roster overall. They are more of a finesse faction. I don't understand where the idea comes from that there is some sort of conspiracy that HE are being pushed in the dirt, and that their tournament wins in a vacuum is representative of their overall strength.

    Let me just leave a note that technically speaking, a Skaven main won the most competitive Everchosen tournament thus far, so let that be proof that it matters greatly who pilots the faction. If a mediocre High Elf player comes across someone who is a specialist in X faction then unless it's a particularly lopsided matchup, the High Elf player is likely to lose. Why would you see a mediocre High Elf in a tournament? Same reason why you see mediocre Dark Elves, Chaos, Vampires, etc. The faction itself is good and perhaps that person just likes them.

    I will congratulate you for winning and edging out against Turin and Gobbo King as you mentioned, though I don't think they would appreciate being treated as trophies, and frankly, anyone can win against anyone. It's a matter of consistency. No intent to bash on your skill level here, but I'm just saying, that's not exactly good evidence as proof of your relative skill level, and anyone who would attempt to discredit your argument solely on the basis of you being "bad at the game" is being ridiculous.



    As for High Elves as a whole, I think they play like a slightly strange version of the Empire with actual elite units and better units pound for pound overall but less selection. Where High Elves have very competent melee infantry choices, the Empire has the same in the cavalry and missile department. Dragon Princes are like Reiksguard turned up to 10, and Silver Helms are just flat out better Empire Knights. Ellyrian Reaver Archers are competent enough in melee to ward off units like warhounds or bats, but you're paying for that. In a sense, everything in the High Elf roster is a good generalist unit, and they pay for it, so it becomes very important where and how much of your resources are committed to the engagements they end up in. This also tends to result in having a somewhat thinner army than other factions with cost effective and cheap infantry meaning much of your chaff clearing is delegated to rather expensive units like chariots or cavalry.
    Without meaning to bash on your skill level, it is quite possible that the High Elf playstyle just doesn't suit you for the same reasons that Tlaxtlan Soothsayer does not like playing Skaven, why I don't like playing Greenskins, and why Xiphos doesn't like playing Tomb Kings just to throw a few names out there. I understand the frustration behind certain factions feeling rather lackluster, and moreso when you like that particular faction's lore, aesthetic, etc, but as a result of factions being designed in very dynamic ways, it takes a wide range of dynamic playstyles to make good use of all of them as well.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,799Registered Users
    edited December 4
    without intent in starting a long and heated conversation, how are White Lions being lackluster, Swordmasters being too expensive and PG having too many attributes “representative of a playstyle”? Which exactly is the HE playstyle that you mention and that people “maybe just dislike” as you say? Teclis with Nets and Dragon Prince and Spearmen spam? So using 4 units in the roster to do something you could do with Empire as well? How is this “unique to HE and has to be loved as a unique flavor”?

    To me, it sounds like you’re talking people into accepting having subpar units. Imagine if someone told you the dame about CW GW. How furious would you be?

    Chaos can bring CW frontlines. So can Dwarfs, GS, VC pick units in the 700-800 price range with no shame.

    Why is HE being singled out at having inferior midrange and elite options FORCING them to pick chaff only frontlines + cav?

    HE have nothing to clear chaff. Like you say, it’s a weakness. You even proceed to claim that Spearmen should have this role, a statement quite telling on its own.

    On top of that, their tournament builds are very predictable and thin (when people bother picking them). They have no really good matchups like Beastmen or Bretonnia or Chaos and this already limits their viability because of counterpicks and tournament rules. Even when they do get picked, it’s mostly the same Star Dragon all-in or Teclis + Net or Alarielle. As soon as you pick anything other than Spearmen, Dragon Princes and archers, you generally lose a tournament.

    I can’t recall the last time I saw someone win using Silver Helms, Swordmasters, Bolt Throwers. The simple truth is that these units are not viable at super high level because they set you behind.

    Sorry if I sound rude, the more I read your post, the more I think it’s sweet talking into accepting an inconvenient situation. You say many units are generalist so this means you need to invest a lot of resources into 1 thing.

    Could you give me a concrete example with Sisters of Avelorn? At what point is the 300g baggage of melee stats useful in a game?
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,799Registered Users
    edited December 4
    also, you say that the hole in the HE roster is clearing chaff effectively.

    I can give you 2 more holes at least: too generalist cav (in fact, there is no faction where HE can win a cav engagement gold for gold without magic support, bar those that are terrible at cavalry like Greenskins) Silver Helms just suck, it’s very convenient for you to compare them to Empire Knights, why don’t we compare them to Knights of the Realm or Cold One Knights?), even Dragon Princes lack the much-sought AL/AP combinations that make so many strong cav factions strong at cav. You’re right in saying they’re a better Reiksguard, HOWEVER Empire has 1 more cav option (DK halberds) meant to fill a very specific and dire need of the roster which HE don’t get.

    The third gap is difficulty to bring tons of models/HP pool to the field, which in turn makes units like SM/PG pin cushions for your opponent to harass.

    Empire, while being average, has much more cost-effective artillery (2nd best in the game), best AL cavalry (and all you need on cavalry is AL because let’s not kid ourselves, ANY cav can clear chaff due to how lame cycle charging is, don’t need DP stats to do that), very cost-efficient AP missiles (with nets), a very good melee lord, a very good caster choice, one of the best chaff units in the game.

    Empire only lacks in elite frontline very slightly (but let’s be honest, so do HE since Swordmasters are a troll pick and PG works only in boxing builds) and in air superiority and maybe in debuff potential. Even their less shiny parts of the roster, like Pistoliers, Free Company ir Crossbowmen (+33% increase on AP compared to archer lines) are alright picks. Crossbowmen specifically are basically HE archer level now after then -25g cost, they lose 20 range but gain +1AP and 5 armor. They might lose 1v1 vs HE archers but there are situations where realistically you would rather have Crossbowmen. When you see how many toys even a faction like Empire got, don’t give me the “generalist unit” piece to justify why I should gobble down my 1100g Handgunners with useless melee or 1000g Knights of the Realm with less WS and no BvL or 700g Bolt Thrower with useless alternate fire or 800g Chaos Warriors GW that behave like Clanrats below 50% HP.
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