Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Should the AP on elven archers be reduced?

cool_ladcool_lad Senior MemberIndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,278
As it says in the title; for some reason, elven archers seem to do decently well against armoured units. This is especially incongruous considering how they were completely ineffective against armoured units on the TT, since they had low strength attacks with no AP rule.

Glade Guard, using the Asrai longbow should retain some AP due to having the AP rule.
«1345

Comments

  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    Bows, crossbows, etc. getting AP in any form has been one of the biggest pet peeves about WH for me regardless of the faction.
    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 457
    cool_lad said:

    As it says in the title; for some reason, elven archers seem to do decently well against armoured units. This is especially incongruous considering how they were completely ineffective against armoured units on the TT, since they had low strength attacks with no AP rule.

    Glade Guard, using the Asrai longbow should retain some AP due to having the AP rule.

    Total war is not a 1:1 representation of tabletop. Tabletop had its own balance issues that don't need to be brought here, and the balance must be different for an RTS setting.

    That said, it makes absolutely no sense for the lowest level archery unit (even for the Wood elves) to have AP. By that logic, why don't we just go ahead and give the whole wood elf roster AP while we're at it? (since that's practically what the army books says)

    For the high elf archers, I feel that, for those who don't have the DLC for the AP sisters of avelorn, it's necessary that elf archers have enough AP to be usable in late game campaign or else late game elf armies would be less interesting if you couldn't use missiles against late game armored opponents.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,300
    Every unit in the games has AP. The ap ratio from elven archers, specially HE ones, is far from impressive. In fact, is worse than others similar units'.
  • turrehundturrehund Registered Users Posts: 398
    This is a pretty unwarranted change. Archers are in a good spot atm.
  • CirdanCirdan Registered Users Posts: 807
    cool_lad said:

    As it says in the title; for some reason, elven archers seem to do decently well against armoured units. This is especially incongruous considering how they were completely ineffective against armoured units on the TT, since they had low strength attacks with no AP rule.

    Glade Guard, using the Asrai longbow should retain some AP due to having the AP rule.

    Regular HE Archers have 3 AP dmg out of 20 dmg, which is the same as Bretonnian peasant archers. Do you really think that HE Archers should have a lower AP value than them? Furthermore i don't think thats impressive in terms of anti armor capability.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,213
    edited December 2018
    Nah they are fine. Elven archers perform rather terribly against armored units. Sometimes they do a bit of damage through sheer density of fire but the same thing can be said about Greenskin or Bret archers.
    Post edited by Cukie251 on
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,278
    Cukie251 said:

    Nah they are fine. Elven archers perform rather terribly against armored units. Sometimes they do a bit of damage through sheer density of fire but he same thing can be said about Greenskin or Bret archers.

    Eh I guess; I got the info I needed and have some ideas about what should be done. Thanks for your ideas.

    I still think that HE archers are disproportionately powerful. But I'm unsure as to whether that means that they should be nerfed or that their contemporaries need to be buffed in some ways.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    The issue with high elf Archers is their exceptional range for their cost, not their AP which is inline with everything else.

    I think the skirmish game plays better at 170-180 range instead of the 160 range and the approach to HE Archers is to buff everything other than 180 range+ skirmishers and throwing axes, javelins, pistols, etc. by 10-20 range.
    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,213
    Eh, I've heard from some good players (mainly lotus) that HE archers might be a bit over-tuned with their 180 range. Idk, i could personally see it dropping to 170 to keep them having the first strike but punish kiting around a bit more, but I don't think its that big of a deal.

    In any case, damage isn't an issue with them.
  • Lt_HargroveLt_Hargrove Registered Users Posts: 445
    Green0 said:

    The issue with high elf Archers is their exceptional range for their cost, not their AP which is inline with everything else.

    I think the skirmish game plays better at 170-180 range instead of the 160 range and the approach to HE Archers is to buff everything other than 180 range+ skirmishers and throwing axes, javelins, pistols, etc. by 10-20 range.

    why should HE lose one of the few racial advantages they have over other factions?

    HE are a missile faction. Get over it. If Crossbowmen get 180 range while having 4AP and +5 armor, HE archers need -50g or a similar buff to keep them strong as a characterizing unit of the faction.

    Otherwise, if HE lose archer advantage, they should get artillery or cavalry advantage.

    HE can’t always take the leftovers from the trash heap after all other factions have dined abundantly. It can’t always work one way, HE units that overperform are too strong but when one asks for buffs to HE units that struggle, he’s told “they’re fine”.
    First of all, stop soapboxing. Second of all, HE are not a missile faction, they are an all-rounder both in TT and lore, just like Empire. Archers trashcan every single other missile unit in their price range thanks to their longer range. That +20 range means they always get the first volley and that they can trade from behind their frontline. Add decent MD when prowess is up and high LD. For 475 this unit is plainly overpowered. We've already discussed the comparison between them and Peasant Bowmen, but you are stubborn on the issue.

    I'm not saying that HE don't have problems. Their powerful units are all very expensive, they have next to no mid-cost options and their only durable infantry are Phoenix Guard, which renders their infantry play two dimensional - they have to spam spears that hold for a bit or go very narrow and have no way to protect support units. This leads to playstyles hinging on key all-star MVP units - Dragon Princes, Nobles, boxing Phoenix Guard, Archer spam etc. Compare them to Dark Elves. Dreadspear, Bleaksword, Corsair, Executioner, SoS and mix of the former frontlines are all playable. For HE you have either Spearmen or Spearmen + a few elites. This is the HE problem and it needs to be fixed. Move some power from stuff like Alarielle to White Lions / an asspulled 3rd edition HE sword unit for 500.

    Zeal is a moderate price for sanity
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,278
    Green0 said:

    The issue with high elf Archers is their exceptional range for their cost, not their AP which is inline with everything else.

    I think the skirmish game plays better at 170-180 range instead of the 160 range and the approach to HE Archers is to buff everything other than 180 range+ skirmishers and throwing axes, javelins, pistols, etc. by 10-20 range.

    why should HE lose one of the few racial advantages they have over other factions?

    HE are a missile faction. Get over it. If Crossbowmen get 180 range while having 4AP and +5 armor, HE archers need -50g or a similar buff to keep them strong as a characterizing unit of the faction.

    Otherwise, if HE lose archer advantage, they should get artillery or cavalry advantage.

    HE can’t always take the leftovers from the trash heap after all other factions have dined abundantly. It can’t always work one way, HE units that overperform are too strong but when one asks for buffs to HE units that struggle, he’s told “they’re fine”.
    I think that it bears remembering that the HE advantage lies in their elites. They have a wide variety of elites that are all good at their jobs; the core units for HE were just support for the elites; lacking in rules such as detachments or weapons such as handguns to allow them to puch above their weight.

    HE are basically an elite focused mirror version of the Empire. While the Empire focuses (or at least in principle) on core troops, artillery and ranged; HE focus on elites, melee and monsters. Ranged was never a particular specialty of the HE, and their archers, while solid, weren't actually dominant even within their contemporaries, with crossbows having more raw damage and WE archers getting the AP rule.

    Having better BS should give them more accuracy and maybe better reloads, but I have absolutely no idea how that justifies such a massive range advantage, especially over WE who are supposed to be fielding the best archers.
  • saellsaell Registered Users Posts: 481
    And then there are skeletton archer which cost also 475 but with much worse stats ,-40 range and only 1 ap
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,449
    Pocman said:

    Every unit in the games has AP. The ap ratio from elven archers, specially HE ones, is far from impressive. In fact, is worse than others similar units'.

    True, thread answered.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875
    Got no opinion on this, but Green0 you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. You gotta work on that tone if you hope to persuade people
  • CirdanCirdan Registered Users Posts: 807
    edited December 2018

    Green0 said:

    The issue with high elf Archers is their exceptional range for their cost, not their AP which is inline with everything else.

    I think the skirmish game plays better at 170-180 range instead of the 160 range and the approach to HE Archers is to buff everything other than 180 range+ skirmishers and throwing axes, javelins, pistols, etc. by 10-20 range.

    why should HE lose one of the few racial advantages they have over other factions?

    HE are a missile faction. Get over it. If Crossbowmen get 180 range while having 4AP and +5 armor, HE archers need -50g or a similar buff to keep them strong as a characterizing unit of the faction.

    Otherwise, if HE lose archer advantage, they should get artillery or cavalry advantage.

    HE can’t always take the leftovers from the trash heap after all other factions have dined abundantly. It can’t always work one way, HE units that overperform are too strong but when one asks for buffs to HE units that struggle, he’s told “they’re fine”.
    First of all, stop soapboxing. Second of all, HE are not a missile faction, they are an all-rounder both in TT and lore, just like Empire. Archers trashcan every single other missile unit in their price range thanks to their longer range. That +20 range means they always get the first volley and that they can trade from behind their frontline. Add decent MD when prowess is up and high LD. For 475 this unit is plainly overpowered. We've already discussed the comparison between them and Peasant Bowmen, but you are stubborn on the issue.

    I'm not saying that HE don't have problems. Their powerful units are all very expensive, they have next to no mid-cost options and their only durable infantry are Phoenix Guard, which renders their infantry play two dimensional - they have to spam spears that hold for a bit or go very narrow and have no way to protect support units. This leads to playstyles hinging on key all-star MVP units - Dragon Princes, Nobles, boxing Phoenix Guard, Archer spam etc. Compare them to Dark Elves. Dreadspear, Bleaksword, Corsair, Executioner, SoS and mix of the former frontlines are all playable. For HE you have either Spearmen or Spearmen + a few elites. This is the HE problem and it needs to be fixed. Move some power from stuff like Alarielle to White Lions / an asspulled 3rd edition HE sword unit for 500.

    Empire being an all round faction doesn't stop them from having some of the best cavalry, artillery and support heroes. I don't see this as an argument for the high elves to not be proficient at archery, which they actually was show-cased to be good at when the game was launched.

    Edit: Forgot to mention that the Empire in addition have the most flexibility when it comes to magic, even though other races are supposed to have more lores in TT.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,180
    I dont see why thry need the nerf
    They are fine
  • Lt_HargroveLt_Hargrove Registered Users Posts: 445
    Cirdan said:

    Green0 said:

    The issue with high elf Archers is their exceptional range for their cost, not their AP which is inline with everything else.

    I think the skirmish game plays better at 170-180 range instead of the 160 range and the approach to HE Archers is to buff everything other than 180 range+ skirmishers and throwing axes, javelins, pistols, etc. by 10-20 range.

    why should HE lose one of the few racial advantages they have over other factions?

    HE are a missile faction. Get over it. If Crossbowmen get 180 range while having 4AP and +5 armor, HE archers need -50g or a similar buff to keep them strong as a characterizing unit of the faction.

    Otherwise, if HE lose archer advantage, they should get artillery or cavalry advantage.

    HE can’t always take the leftovers from the trash heap after all other factions have dined abundantly. It can’t always work one way, HE units that overperform are too strong but when one asks for buffs to HE units that struggle, he’s told “they’re fine”.
    First of all, stop soapboxing. Second of all, HE are not a missile faction, they are an all-rounder both in TT and lore, just like Empire. Archers trashcan every single other missile unit in their price range thanks to their longer range. That +20 range means they always get the first volley and that they can trade from behind their frontline. Add decent MD when prowess is up and high LD. For 475 this unit is plainly overpowered. We've already discussed the comparison between them and Peasant Bowmen, but you are stubborn on the issue.

    I'm not saying that HE don't have problems. Their powerful units are all very expensive, they have next to no mid-cost options and their only durable infantry are Phoenix Guard, which renders their infantry play two dimensional - they have to spam spears that hold for a bit or go very narrow and have no way to protect support units. This leads to playstyles hinging on key all-star MVP units - Dragon Princes, Nobles, boxing Phoenix Guard, Archer spam etc. Compare them to Dark Elves. Dreadspear, Bleaksword, Corsair, Executioner, SoS and mix of the former frontlines are all playable. For HE you have either Spearmen or Spearmen + a few elites. This is the HE problem and it needs to be fixed. Move some power from stuff like Alarielle to White Lions / an asspulled 3rd edition HE sword unit for 500.

    Empire being an all round faction doesn't stop them from having some of the best cavalry, artillery and support heroes. I don't see this as an argument for the high elves to not be proficient at archery, which they actually was show-cased to be good at when the game was launched.

    Edit: Forgot to mention that the Empire in addition have the most flexibility when it comes to magic, even though other races are supposed to have more lores in TT.
    High Elves also have Dragon Princes, Dragons, Nobles and best mixed lore casters in the game.
    Zeal is a moderate price for sanity
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,827
    edited December 2018
    He archers need -10 range and light armour ones need -25g and +5 armour.

    Bret ones need +25g

    3 ap on he archers is fine all units gave ap vallue, look at orc archers 5ap per shot.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,608

    He archers need -10 range and light armour ones need -25g and +5 armour.

    Bret ones need +25g

    3 ap on he archers is fine all units gave ap vallue, look at orc archers 5ap per shot.

    6 actually on orc arrers(both variants)

    Also, AP isnt the end all be all of damage output that some people seem to think it is. Peasant bows with fire arrows have 2 AP instead of 3, but because of their higher non-AP damage actually do higher damage per shot than normal longbows vs targets with 100 or less armor, which means theyre just straight up better vs almost everything in the game.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,827
    Wyvern2 said:

    He archers need -10 range and light armour ones need -25g and +5 armour.

    Bret ones need +25g

    3 ap on he archers is fine all units gave ap vallue, look at orc archers 5ap per shot.

    6 actually on orc arrers(both variants)

    Also, AP isnt the end all be all of damage output that some people seem to think it is. Peasant bows with fire arrows have 2 AP instead of 3, but because of their higher non-AP damage actually do higher damage per shot than normal longbows vs targets with 100 or less armor, which means theyre just straight up better vs almost everything in the game.
    they cost 50g more though so are not wroth it at all. fire arrows need -1 normal damage for +1AP to be worth the extra 50g over normal ones, but this is ofcourse with me saying that bret archers need +25g as base.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,180
    edited December 2018
    I really disagree with both changes

    Theres no reason to change things that are fine
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,608

    Wyvern2 said:

    He archers need -10 range and light armour ones need -25g and +5 armour.

    Bret ones need +25g

    3 ap on he archers is fine all units gave ap vallue, look at orc archers 5ap per shot.

    6 actually on orc arrers(both variants)

    Also, AP isnt the end all be all of damage output that some people seem to think it is. Peasant bows with fire arrows have 2 AP instead of 3, but because of their higher non-AP damage actually do higher damage per shot than normal longbows vs targets with 100 or less armor, which means theyre just straight up better vs almost everything in the game.
    they cost 50g more though so are not wroth it at all. fire arrows need -1 normal damage for +1AP to be worth the extra 50g over normal ones, but this is ofcourse with me saying that bret archers need +25g as base.
    They are worth it though. The extra damage vs squishy targets actually makes them much better at mulching enemy backline troops. If you're only bringing like 2-3 archers anyway, the tradeoff is well worth it. IIRC the difference in damage per shot they have actually makes it so they kill quite a few units models in fewer shots, which can make a big difference.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,278
    Cirdan said:

    Green0 said:

    The issue with high elf Archers is their exceptional range for their cost, not their AP which is inline with everything else.

    I think the skirmish game plays better at 170-180 range instead of the 160 range and the approach to HE Archers is to buff everything other than 180 range+ skirmishers and throwing axes, javelins, pistols, etc. by 10-20 range.

    why should HE lose one of the few racial advantages they have over other factions?

    HE are a missile faction. Get over it. If Crossbowmen get 180 range while having 4AP and +5 armor, HE archers need -50g or a similar buff to keep them strong as a characterizing unit of the faction.

    Otherwise, if HE lose archer advantage, they should get artillery or cavalry advantage.

    HE can’t always take the leftovers from the trash heap after all other factions have dined abundantly. It can’t always work one way, HE units that overperform are too strong but when one asks for buffs to HE units that struggle, he’s told “they’re fine”.
    First of all, stop soapboxing. Second of all, HE are not a missile faction, they are an all-rounder both in TT and lore, just like Empire. Archers trashcan every single other missile unit in their price range thanks to their longer range. That +20 range means they always get the first volley and that they can trade from behind their frontline. Add decent MD when prowess is up and high LD. For 475 this unit is plainly overpowered. We've already discussed the comparison between them and Peasant Bowmen, but you are stubborn on the issue.

    I'm not saying that HE don't have problems. Their powerful units are all very expensive, they have next to no mid-cost options and their only durable infantry are Phoenix Guard, which renders their infantry play two dimensional - they have to spam spears that hold for a bit or go very narrow and have no way to protect support units. This leads to playstyles hinging on key all-star MVP units - Dragon Princes, Nobles, boxing Phoenix Guard, Archer spam etc. Compare them to Dark Elves. Dreadspear, Bleaksword, Corsair, Executioner, SoS and mix of the former frontlines are all playable. For HE you have either Spearmen or Spearmen + a few elites. This is the HE problem and it needs to be fixed. Move some power from stuff like Alarielle to White Lions / an asspulled 3rd edition HE sword unit for 500.

    Empire being an all round faction doesn't stop them from having some of the best cavalry, artillery and support heroes. I don't see this as an argument for the high elves to not be proficient at archery, which they actually was show-cased to be good at when the game was launched.

    Edit: Forgot to mention that the Empire in addition have the most flexibility when it comes to magic, even though other races are supposed to have more lores in TT.
    It's true that HE aren't precluded from having some of the best units in their category, but the question is, which units should they be?

    Looking at their concepts, the Empire was a faction that was an all rounder, but still focused on some things more than others (core units, ranged and artillery); in a similar vein, the HE too focused on some specific things (elite units, melee and monsters). In this way, the HE were very different from the Empire, even while being an all round faction; since they focused on very different things.

    This is why HE archers are problematic. The HE were very much a melee and elite focused faction. Their core units were solid, but right now, they're just outright dominant in their category; to the extent that they shame factions that are actually supposed to be focused on their core units and even factions that are supposed to have the best archers. The 180 range clearly outpaces any other advantage that their contemporaries may have, while also being exceedingly cheap.

    I have no issue with HE having better and more varied elites. They should (and do) have some of the best. But right now, their archers make them easily dominate where they shouldn't be particularly strong (core ranged) to begin with.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,827
    @cool_lad whats your view on the fact orc archers have 6AP? if you saying 3ap is too much than 6 must be crazy ey?
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,278

    @cool_lad whats your view on the fact orc archers have 6AP? if you saying 3ap is too much than 6 must be crazy ey?

    Considering their generally low range and that they do need something to distinguish between them and goblins within the same roster, not to mention their extra cost and the fact that their most common opponents are heavily armoured Dwarves; I don't have any particular issue with it.

    I already laid the original issue to rest in an earlier post.
    cool_lad said:

    Cukie251 said:

    Nah they are fine. Elven archers perform rather terribly against armored units. Sometimes they do a bit of damage through sheer density of fire but he same thing can be said about Greenskin or Bret archers.

    Eh I guess; I got the info I needed and have some ideas about what should be done. Thanks for your ideas.

    I still think that HE archers are disproportionately powerful. But I'm unsure as to whether that means that they should be nerfed or that their contemporaries need to be buffed in some ways.
    Though that still leaves the issue of HE archers being disproportionately powerful open. I still think that there's little justification for HE alone to have a base range of 180 for all their 30" range units, while other factions, ones which are actually focused on ranged and core units (Empire) or are in fact supposed to have the best archers of the lot (Wood Elves) work with base ranges of 160 and 170 respectively, with little in the way of other bonuses to show for it; especially since HE archers are also very cheap compared to the TT (crossbows for example were 9 points a model, while the basic elven archers were 10 points a model). There's also the question of whether it means that HE need a serious nerf or that the others need serious buffs to catch up with the power creep (I'd prefer the latter option, since that accounts for power creep instead of putting a band aid on a wider problem).
Sign In or Register to comment.