Flamespyre Phoenices - weak?

Maedrethnir

Shouldn't they rain holocaust upon foes? And why aren't they damaging enemy units with their very fiery presence? is their use only limited to defecating on blobs?

I never use them late game. Such iconic creature that has inspired High Elves' king title and the most elite troops, it is nothing more than a gimmick of Tyrion's early game.

Mogwai_Man

Well when CA decided to give High Elves three recruitable dragons it kind of overshadowed the phoenixes.

Sephlock

Flamespyre phoenixes got the wraith treatment (I guess Syreens are a bit better than the others), unfortunately.

Making them as awesome as they ought to be might be a bit OP, I guess...?

Sir_Godspeed

They're not THAT iconic, as they are a bit of a late addition to the roster. Dragons are a lot more iconic for the elves.

Maedrethnir

Mogwai_Man said:

Well when CA decided to give High Elves three recruitable dragons it kind of overshadowed the phoenixes.

They could at least give them burning aura. Keep the health the same but add area of effect damage. They are on fire after all.

Sephlock said:

Flamespyre phoenixes got the wraith treatment (I guess Syreens are a bit better than the others), unfortunately.

Making them as awesome as they ought to be might be a bit OP, I guess...?

I'm willing to live with their potential OPness! Sacrifices to Asuryan shall flow!

Sir_Godspeed said:

They're not THAT iconic, as they are a bit of a late addition to the roster. Dragons are a lot more iconic for the elves.

I have never played TT. Maybe my choice of word as wrong. But then for someone who is not versed in Fantasy Battle I can say that 'Phoenix King' 'Phoenix Guard', two types of phoenices and 'Asuryan' most definitely make it look like an integral part of their identity.

Nyxilis

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

Maedrethnir

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

Rubzy

Just add it to the tech tree if you don't want to have it in multiplayer battles, if anyone was thinking about that argument.

Maedrethnir

Rubzy said:

Just add it to the tech tree if you don't want to have it in multiplayer battles, if anyone was thinking about that argument.

Good idea. This way 5 percenters would not be hurt by this.

Arthas_Menethil

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

Maedrethnir

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

Nyxilis

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

Maedrethnir

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

Nyxilis

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

You'll notice they have riders, you'll notice they are standing next to friendly troops in some of that art as well. They're not toast, but if you think they have a 100% toasting everyone next to them to instant ash immolation aura then you're wrong.

They can get hot to rein embers down, but it's still not draconic breath levels of death.

Arthas_Menethil

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

Their burning is already covered by flaming attacks on the Flamespyre Phoenix because it would be far sillier that a whole unit gets affected by a Pheonixs magical flames regardless of how close they are to said Phoenix which range of said burning would be melee.

Maedrethnir

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

You'll notice they have riders, you'll notice they are standing next to friendly troops in some of that art as well. They're not toast, but if you think they have a 100% toasting everyone next to them to instant ash immolation aura then you're wrong.

They can get hot to rein embers down, but it's still not draconic breath levels of death.

Magical fire that can ignore friendlies? One of the most common tropes in fantasy. Hell, the whole thing with Phoenix King and not getting burned is built around it. Their riders are Phoenix Guard, Asuryan's best buddies.

Everyone? No. Enemies? Yes.

Also what is your point exactly? You want to keep this counter intuitive lack of fire and unit as nigh useless because BECAUSE?

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

Their burning is already covered by flaming attacks on the Flamespyre Phoenix because it would be far sillier that a whole unit gets affected by a Pheonixs magical flames regardless of how close they are to said Phoenix which range of said burning would be melee.

It would be perfectly normal, not silly at all. All foes sorrounding the phoenix should suffer damage. And no, it is not covered at all as their bodies are on fire, all of it is emiting heat.

Nyxilis

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

You'll notice they have riders, you'll notice they are standing next to friendly troops in some of that art as well. They're not toast, but if you think they have a 100% toasting everyone next to them to instant ash immolation aura then you're wrong.

They can get hot to rein embers down, but it's still not draconic breath levels of death.

Magical fire that can ignore friendlies? One of the most common tropes in fantasy. Hell, the whole thing with Phoenix King and not getting burned is built around it. Their riders are Phoenix Guard, Asuryan's best buddies.

Everyone? No. Enemies? Yes.

Also what is your point exactly? You want to keep this counter intuitive lack of fire and unit as nigh useless because BECAUSE?

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

Their burning is already covered by flaming attacks on the Flamespyre Phoenix because it would be far sillier that a whole unit gets affected by a Pheonixs magical flames regardless of how close they are to said Phoenix which range of said burning would be melee.

It would be perfectly normal, not silly at all. All foes sorrounding the phoenix should suffer damage. And no, it is not covered at all as their bodies are on fire, all of it is emiting heat.

They don't lack it, as mentioned they show it in their attacks and the like. And you're still trying to use out of lore context, and things outside of Warhammer to justify it the way you want it. That's what this sums up to. Phoenix are not to your personal fantasy and you wish it to be. So not just because, but because I don't agree with things changing to simply suit someone's personal preference that is not in line with how it was or has been.

Maedrethnir

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

You'll notice they have riders, you'll notice they are standing next to friendly troops in some of that art as well. They're not toast, but if you think they have a 100% toasting everyone next to them to instant ash immolation aura then you're wrong.

They can get hot to rein embers down, but it's still not draconic breath levels of death.

Magical fire that can ignore friendlies? One of the most common tropes in fantasy. Hell, the whole thing with Phoenix King and not getting burned is built around it. Their riders are Phoenix Guard, Asuryan's best buddies.

Everyone? No. Enemies? Yes.

Also what is your point exactly? You want to keep this counter intuitive lack of fire and unit as nigh useless because BECAUSE?

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

Their burning is already covered by flaming attacks on the Flamespyre Phoenix because it would be far sillier that a whole unit gets affected by a Pheonixs magical flames regardless of how close they are to said Phoenix which range of said burning would be melee.

It would be perfectly normal, not silly at all. All foes sorrounding the phoenix should suffer damage. And no, it is not covered at all as their bodies are on fire, all of it is emiting heat.

They don't lack it, as mentioned they show it in their attacks and the like. And you're still trying to use out of lore context, and things outside of Warhammer to justify it the way you want it. That's what this sums up to. Phoenix are not to your personal fantasy and you wish it to be. So not just because, but because I don't agree with things changing to simply suit someone's personal preference that is not in line with how it was or has been.

They do lack it. Attacks are not the same as aura. I don't. If they are burning then there are flames and heat, sorrounding enemies should suffer from it. It is not a TT, imperfections and shortcomings can be fixed. In other words you want to keep them nigh useless because TT. TT is dead. We have such ridiculous creations as Direfin and Aranessa wielding vampires. What I speak about is common sense, not some stretched lore creation. Phoenix having aura is an adjustement based on its appearance. Nothing more.

Arthas_Menethil

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

You'll notice they have riders, you'll notice they are standing next to friendly troops in some of that art as well. They're not toast, but if you think they have a 100% toasting everyone next to them to instant ash immolation aura then you're wrong.

They can get hot to rein embers down, but it's still not draconic breath levels of death.

Magical fire that can ignore friendlies? One of the most common tropes in fantasy. Hell, the whole thing with Phoenix King and not getting burned is built around it. Their riders are Phoenix Guard, Asuryan's best buddies.

Everyone? No. Enemies? Yes.

Also what is your point exactly? You want to keep this counter intuitive lack of fire and unit as nigh useless because BECAUSE?

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

Their burning is already covered by flaming attacks on the Flamespyre Phoenix because it would be far sillier that a whole unit gets affected by a Pheonixs magical flames regardless of how close they are to said Phoenix which range of said burning would be melee.

It would be perfectly normal, not silly at all. All foes sorrounding the phoenix should suffer damage. And no, it is not covered at all as their bodies are on fire, all of it is emiting heat.

They don't lack it, as mentioned they show it in their attacks and the like. And you're still trying to use out of lore context, and things outside of Warhammer to justify it the way you want it. That's what this sums up to. Phoenix are not to your personal fantasy and you wish it to be. So not just because, but because I don't agree with things changing to simply suit someone's personal preference that is not in line with how it was or has been.

They do lack it. Attacks are not the same as aura. I don't. If they are burning then there are flames and heat, sorrounding enemies should suffer from it. It is not a TT, imperfections and shortcomings can be fixed. In other words you want to keep them nigh useless because TT. TT is dead. We have such ridiculous creations as Direfin and Aranessa wielding vampires. What I speak about is common sense, not some stretched lore creation. Phoenix having aura is an adjustement based on its appearance. Nothing more.

The only aura a Pheonix had is a debuff aura even then CA use 8th ED as a source before going to previous EDs and you've forgotten the setting and the game magic can and will friendly fire.

"Magical fire that can ignore friendlies? One of the most common tropes in fantasy. Hell, the whole thing with Phoenix King and not getting burned is built around it. Their riders are Phoenix Guard, Asuryan's best buddies. "
That trope doesn't exist in Warhammer as magic can and will friendly fire. Their only change in heat is when they explode from rage or death.
Those Phoenix guard are Antioned of Asuryan not normal soldiers and are more god blessed.

Maedrethnir

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

You'll notice they have riders, you'll notice they are standing next to friendly troops in some of that art as well. They're not toast, but if you think they have a 100% toasting everyone next to them to instant ash immolation aura then you're wrong.

They can get hot to rein embers down, but it's still not draconic breath levels of death.

Magical fire that can ignore friendlies? One of the most common tropes in fantasy. Hell, the whole thing with Phoenix King and not getting burned is built around it. Their riders are Phoenix Guard, Asuryan's best buddies.

Everyone? No. Enemies? Yes.

Also what is your point exactly? You want to keep this counter intuitive lack of fire and unit as nigh useless because BECAUSE?

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Yharshaarj said:

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Still were a pretty late edition. Yes, Phoenix King but Dragon princes: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Princes were far more something that was often seen. Dragons are the true pedestal high tier piece of the high elves. Way more to do in their society and history than a few name mentions. They do have a place, but it's a more specialized place like the white lions.

And I agree with Mogwai, the very fact that dragons exist in the roster means that they are overshadowed. But from the loreful example they're not as powerful as you're saying. Warhammer Phoenix are strong certainly, but not dragon city wall smashing levels.

I have never said that they are or should be stronger than dragons, just that they should be stronger and be what they are meant to be, that is fire creatures. As they are phoenices do no area of effect damage even though they are literally on fire. I would love to see them being useful for once, relatively low health pool but intense damage that will melt sorrounding it enemies if he is not dealt with quickly.

The only phoenix that gave off any aura or Area of effect was the Frostheart one who had a "Blizzard Aura" (which lowered enemy strength by 1) but they did not do any form AoE damage from simply being in combat with them and is more of a Games Workshop issue.

To hell with TT, it's shortcomings and limitations, It doesn't make sense for them to not burn sorroundings. CA should upgrade and fix where it is necessary. Phoenices are all about that fire. And now they are just pooping birds.

Phoenices must burn!

This is now player opinion and not lore. It wasn't TT rules and limitations, it's lore. And depending which Phoenix lore you go with from IRL they're sometimes gods, or in some cases there ever was only one. Warhammer is it's own unique world and they don't need to go around rewriting lore simply to suit individual tastes.

And the frost ones had the aura because they were incredibly ancient phoenix stronger in ways than their fiery versions even if technically knocking on death's door.

I've read their lore, I have seen their GD model. Not to mention TW:WH model that is literally covered with flames. Oh they are burning.

Their burning is already covered by flaming attacks on the Flamespyre Phoenix because it would be far sillier that a whole unit gets affected by a Pheonixs magical flames regardless of how close they are to said Phoenix which range of said burning would be melee.

It would be perfectly normal, not silly at all. All foes sorrounding the phoenix should suffer damage. And no, it is not covered at all as their bodies are on fire, all of it is emiting heat.

They don't lack it, as mentioned they show it in their attacks and the like. And you're still trying to use out of lore context, and things outside of Warhammer to justify it the way you want it. That's what this sums up to. Phoenix are not to your personal fantasy and you wish it to be. So not just because, but because I don't agree with things changing to simply suit someone's personal preference that is not in line with how it was or has been.

They do lack it. Attacks are not the same as aura. I don't. If they are burning then there are flames and heat, sorrounding enemies should suffer from it. It is not a TT, imperfections and shortcomings can be fixed. In other words you want to keep them nigh useless because TT. TT is dead. We have such ridiculous creations as Direfin and Aranessa wielding vampires. What I speak about is common sense, not some stretched lore creation. Phoenix having aura is an adjustement based on its appearance. Nothing more.

The only aura a Pheonix had is a debuff aura even then CA use 8th ED as a source before going to previous EDs and you've forgotten the setting and the game magic can and will friendly fire.

"Magical fire that can ignore friendlies? One of the most common tropes in fantasy. Hell, the whole thing with Phoenix King and not getting burned is built around it. Their riders are Phoenix Guard, Asuryan's best buddies. "
That trope doesn't exist in Warhammer as magic can and will friendly fire. Their only change in heat is when they explode from rage or death.
Those Phoenix guard are Antioned of Asuryan not normal soldiers and are more god blessed.

Ignore TT. Focus on visual representation of their physical aspect. They can either get attack bonus or a more flavourful addition such as fire aura. I expect flames from phoenix, not claws and beak stabs.

It does exist as you have said Anointed are blessed. Phoenices flames belongs to them, i maybe they can decide who will be hurt and who won't. If this is too much of a stretch then make them burn allies too, except for Phoenix Guard. It would require to land them in a position far from your own troops. They produce flames all the time after all. This way stretching is minimised and they can be better than they are now. Both sides of the argument should be happy and with full bellies. Om nom nom nom.

CA can expand and even change lore bits. After all Malekith after capturing Temple of Asuryan gets Corrupted Flame of Asuryan. Saltspite is using vampires and Direfin, well, she just is. And so is her lore.

Again,w hat I'm asking for is just a simple expansion on phoenix most visual trait, its flame.

Nyxilis

Majority here on this forum are not going to ignore TT.

Arthas_Menethil

Nyxilis said:

Majority here on this forum are not going to ignore TT.

CA also use TT as source

from a thread about Khazrak not deserving 100 armour based on appearance.

CA_Duck said:

Khazrak is very heavily armoured in the table top rules. So a high armour value is true to the source material. Think of it as magical medium armour that's stronger than regular full plate.

Maedrethnir

Nyxilis said:

Majority here on this forum are not going to ignore TT.

Luckily CA does.

Arthasmenethril said:

Nyxilis said:

Majority here on this forum are not going to ignore TT.

CA also use TT as source

from a thread about Khazrak not deserving 100 armour based on appearance.

CA_Duck said:

Khazrak is very heavily armoured in the table top rules. So a high armour value is true to the source material. Think of it as magical medium armour that's stronger than regular full plate.

It is a good explanation. Magical armour. Magical flames. Magical.

Arthas_Menethil

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Majority here on this forum are not going to ignore TT.

Luckily CA does.

Arthasmenethril said:

Nyxilis said:

Majority here on this forum are not going to ignore TT.

CA also use TT as source

from a thread about Khazrak not deserving 100 armour based on appearance.

CA_Duck said:

Khazrak is very heavily armoured in the table top rules. So a high armour value is true to the source material. Think of it as magical medium armour that's stronger than regular full plate.

It is a good explanation. Magical armour. Magical flames. Magical.

Which means magical flame attacks not a magical flame AoE would affect everyone around the Pheonix including Friendlies which would make them worse to use.
The only thing truly wrong with Phoenixes is that the Dragon mounts of the HE were turned into units rendering them worse off also forgot if their rule about the wings of magic was implemented for campaign.

Canuovea

A flying Mortis Engine might be a bit much.

Though I do like that they are stronger or weaker depending on the Winds of Magic.

psychoak

Dragons are slow. You can actually run down artillery and get back to the front lines in a reasonable time with the flamespyre. Their bombing was pretty epic originally, but it was pretty OP too. They're in a much better place now with the drastically slowed bombing rate. You can still terror break stuff just fine, and flying over clumps, dropping bombs, and then diving into the rear, is still super effective.

Think of it as inbetween the function of a dragon, and a great eagle. Great eagles are super fast, and actually work much better than dragons for intercepting fast things, or running down long range units. Flamespyres can do the same thing, but kick almost as much ass as a dragon when they do it.

If you've got four reaver archers in the trees though, you wont really need one.

Maedrethnir

Arthasmenethril said:

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Majority here on this forum are not going to ignore TT.

Luckily CA does.

Arthasmenethril said:

Nyxilis said:

Majority here on this forum are not going to ignore TT.

CA also use TT as source

from a thread about Khazrak not deserving 100 armour based on appearance.

CA_Duck said:

Khazrak is very heavily armoured in the table top rules. So a high armour value is true to the source material. Think of it as magical medium armour that's stronger than regular full plate.

It is a good explanation. Magical armour. Magical flames. Magical.

Which means magical flame attacks not a magical flame AoE would affect everyone around the Pheonix including Friendlies which would make them worse to use.
The only thing truly wrong with Phoenixes is that the Dragon mounts of the HE were turned into units rendering them worse off also forgot if their rule about the wings of magic was implemented for campaign.

Having burning body means precisely that, AoE. It wouldn't affect friendlies unless you land too close to them. And even this AoE can be locked behind research. Or it can be harmless to allies.

I love dragons but I love phoenices too. I don't think I would want to part with my scutes bearing, long muzzled dogs.

They won't take them away so either we find a way to make fire birds more interesting or condemn them to a role of a glorified eagles pooping on the battlefield.

To be honest I'm surprised to see such strong opposition to the idea. Especially after people were trying to outrace each other in the run for the most moderate and understanding CA fan 'Aranessa and vampires, demi-goddess, so cool, it fits' 'Haha what a fantastic inclusion this Direfin is!'.

I just would like to see them better in the campaign. More epic.

Nyxilis

Yharshaarj said:

Nyxilis said:

Majority here on this forum are not going to ignore TT.

Luckily CA does.

Arthasmenethril said:

Nyxilis said:

Majority here on this forum are not going to ignore TT.

CA also use TT as source

from a thread about Khazrak not deserving 100 armour based on appearance.

CA_Duck said:

Khazrak is very heavily armoured in the table top rules. So a high armour value is true to the source material. Think of it as magical medium armour that's stronger than regular full plate.

It is a good explanation. Magical armour. Magical flames. Magical.

For rosters? Really, sorry, they don't.

Arsenic

If a Frostheart Phoenix has an attack aura referencing it being made of ice, I don't see why it's so outrageous to suggest the Flamespyre has something referencing it being basically living flame?

I don't know if that is the answer to making Phoenix's worth using, but that they aren't really right now is hard to deny.

Arthas_Menethil

Arsenic said:

If a Frostheart Phoenix has an attack aura referencing it being made of ice, I don't see why it's so outrageous to suggest the Flamespyre has something referencing it being basically living flame?

I don't know if that is the answer to making Phoenix's worth using, but that they aren't really right now is hard to deny.

If the Flamespyre gets a debuff aura why not also give Frostheart the wake of Fire(obviously change to ice) and rebirth? And make them carbon copies of each other where you choose Red or Blue.

Though to be serious it's more that the Frostheart lost the Wake of Fire and Rebirth for better stats and a debuff aura due to them being older and also different units.

dreagon

I never use these things. I'd rather spend the money on 2 archers or spearmen, which is usually what happens in the first 10 turns or so of my Tyrion Vortex campaigns. I don't think I've ever killed anything with his bombs and he barely kills anything in melee. The ice phoenix is pretty cool. It can actually do something in melee and has a nice AoE debuff.