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Empire/greenskins build Vs Elven faction (New player in dire need)

MrProsMrPros Posts: 7Registered Users
Hey Guys! I started playing multiplayer recently, and every time i pick One of the two factions above the opponent picks one of the elven faction and stomps me. I have trouble to combine build against those factions. whats Your builds Vs Elven builds like DP heavy build or DE Hellebron heavy infantry build?

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  • ExarchExarch Posts: 289Registered Users
    Hey! I've been playing near-exclusively as GS since starting MP recently so I can help a bit there.

    VS HE, I take the big un cav units, normally the RoR +one other, and a goblin big boss for poison. It helps to hide them in the woods if possible to avoid range fire and maybe get an ambush.

    Buffs from waagh and spells are needed to make them hit hard enough vs the DP. Fists of gork is nice as it removes the PR of the DP's. Wurzag's effigy of the git is also very useful, and can be used to net one of the units for a counter charge. Alternatively follow it up with an overcast foot of gork, which devastates heavy cav if they can't dodge it. The magic missile spells are really good as well at deterring/punishing dragons or reaver archers. Keep the cav close to your lines so you can support them with your infantry. Nasty skulkers smoke bombs are also a good way to slow and catch cav.

    For the rest of my build. I like to take the RoR lobber to make them come to you and in case of SM/phoenix guard, some night goblins and night goblin archers to fend off dragons and reaver archers (stalk makes it easier to get in range) with an infantry core of BO and Big Uns. I wouldn't say his is necessarily optimal, and you have to play quite cagily if the HE player has a lot of mobility, but the big un cav answer DP's very well.


    The one to watch out for is allarielle on an eagle with arcane unforging, as it puts the waagh on CD, which makes the infantry fight a lot harder. Probably a rush approach keeping your lord back/ hidden would be better in this case.


    I've played the DE match up less, and haven't seen Hellebron (normally malekith or morathi), but again, the hammer of Gork is useful at damaging heavy infantry, and GS infantry + waagh give you a strong start to the infantry fight. My approach vs DE is usually to go very wide, but I'm still experimenting with builds so I won't give too much specific advice. Archers archers are good against sisters of slaughter, and the mangy marauders' AP missiles are good against the armored elites.


  • MrProsMrPros Posts: 7Registered Users
    Well, the problem i have with Greenskins is that i cant find a balanced build with all units You mentioned. Overall i feel like i have as much troops as the elven player. For example if I take 3 boars Unit, a Wurzag and a front line i cant find enough funds for skulkers, Gobbo archers or Mangy marauders. Could You bring Your example build? Everything seems too expensive. and I know it sounds funny while talking about greenskins roster. :V
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 289Registered Users
    Yeah, you do have to make compromises somewhere. Actually, I checked my saved build and I've toned down the cav recently, but that was probably because it's hard to find a home for bbbu vs some enemy builds. The shaman adds an extra dragon deterrent, plus the slow spell can do the job of skulkers.

    Wurzag on foot. Effigy, waagh, lore attribute, both items, gaze, fists and foot.
    Gobbo shaman with vindictive glare and gork'll fix it only
    gonlin warboss on wolf
    2 Night gobbos
    2 big uns
    2 black orcs
    rust arrers + 1 night goblin archers
    broken tusk mob
    mangy maurauders
    deff creepers
    2 wolf riders

    As is, it probably demands a bit too good play on the broken tusk, it could probably use another unit of bbbu - just swap out the deff creepers and either cu the shaman or downgrade some goblins to vanilla. If you want to rush, you could cut the catapult instead, and swap some skulkers in for the gobbos. Just make sure you keep the bbbu in range of infantry and wurzag support.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 639Registered Users
    As someone who plays quite a bit of empire
    Vs WE - Frontline of swordsmen, support them with silver bullets, 1-2 mortars and hammer of witches. Horse mounted Boris+captain+caster(I screw around and run all sorts of stuff, but would recommend either light with something like net+phas+timewarp, maybe now light of battle, or life with earthblood+regrowth)
    Fill out remaining spots with KotBS and Reiksguard. Zintlers reiksguard is great because of immunity to psychology, empire knights can make ok filler cav too.

    Vs HE - You can do just about anything you like. If your problem is DP's, then cannons can be good to kill models. Can't heal what's already dead. You can also get some niche use out of steam tanks in this MU, though personally I'm not a fan. I do like franz in this MU for his hard hitting AP and AOE buffs though. Using the altdorf gryphites can be a good choice to counter enemy heavy cav in a grindier fight, especially with hold the line providing that sweet +5MD

    Vs DE - I like to go with a balthazar build. Frontline of spears+swords+sigmars sons+maybe 1 flagellant+empire captain(yes its a mixed bag). 2 KotBS, 2 Outrider Grenadiers, Gryphites, Empire captain on horse, 2 Pistoliers and Balthazar on quicksilver with FT, Plague of Rust and Searing Doom.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

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  • MrProsMrPros Posts: 7Registered Users
    With the empire I have this problem that My front line struggles against elven one, and if I invest to much into it then my back line get overrun, and handgunners doesnt seems to do as much damage as they supposed to do ;/
    Its sad tho because i Love empire thematicaly
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 289Registered Users
    Just played a DE build will hellebron and loads of witch elves/sisters backed up by corsair handbows.My wide build worked pretty well against it.

    Once again the lynchpin is Wurzag, with the hammer of gork to pressure from the start, of for executioners too.
    Lots of infantry, a chaff screen followed by black orc and big uns.
    mangy marauders + 3 wolf riders (didn't do a huge amount exapt large distraction value here).
    2 boar boys in reserve - they do decently vs COK with waagh, or vs warlocks with fists of gork.

    hope that gives you a start.
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 289Registered Users
    edited December 2018
    Double post
    Post edited by Exarch on
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 639Registered Users
    MrPros said:

    With the empire I have this problem that My front line struggles against elven one, and if I invest to much into it then my back line get overrun, and handgunners doesnt seems to do as much damage as they supposed to do ;/
    Its sad tho because i Love empire thematicaly

    Well vs DE, which can really launch overwhelming infantry assaults+lots of light cav, I usually wouldn't bother with foot skirmishers. Use your chaff/unbreakable troops to form an anvil/hold the line. Grenade launchers will mulch their infantry in all forms(even their black guard/executioners dont hold out that well, especially not with plague of rust). Win the cav fight and then rear charge the hell out of their infantry, use pistoliers for mop up, counter skirmishing dark riders and that sort of thing.

    vs HE there's a lot of variance in how the match will go, but generally with good positioning you can get solid value out of your shooting. The main thing is to prevent enemy archers from shutting your own shooting down, which has to be done either with mortars or heavy cav(or both).

    Understand that both HE and WE have to heavily overinvest in their frontline to win, because even their chaff is far more expensive than yours, and to be winning the frontline fights vs something like swordsmen, WE have to bring at least 550 gold dryads and HE have to bring 800 gold WL's. They wont bust your line that quickly, so if they have coughed up 1.5-2times your investment into the frontline fight, you should have a huge edge somewhere else that you can then exploit. Plus those units to mulch your infantry tend to be pretty weak to cav, especially WL's, Dryads and Wardancers.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • B6edwardsB6edwards Posts: 2Registered Users
    As empire vs we, I take a swordsman and Spearman with shield front line. They are mainly to screen the archers and soak fire. For the lord I like todbringer oder Volkmar because of their Regen that makes them tanky. I'd forgo missiles apart from maybe the silver bullets and invest heavily in cav. Empire knights do well because of their Armour. I find if u don't go with healing, then light for net or maybe bright. I've been experimenting with flock of doom as elves have low HP pools. Maybe a mortar.
    VS he Karl is good, healer is usually necessary with him. Swords trade well vs spearmen so ur front can consist mainly of them. I take Hammer of witches, maybe another cannon and Silber bullets. Ror demis and maybe another halberd demi. Then I find u either go for cav to press the mobility advantage or invest more into ap in the Frontline. Cav has worked well for me recently, but then I suggest maybe some outriders for some ap.
    VS de it's tricky because of the variety or builds they can do. But I find a spread out wide army can do well as they have short range. I think last build I had was arch lector life wizard, 3 or 4 pistoliers, handgunners, swords, flaggelants and usually 2 halberds. Reiksguard for range clean up, maybe a Gs. It's a tough one I feel. Gelt could work too tho in sure with rust and pistoliers.
  • PippingtonPippington Posts: 1,742Registered Users
    edited December 2018
    For GS vs HE, Black Orcs are a really solid frontline. They will stomp through all HE infantry except Swordmasters, and if you use Waaagh! + Big Waaagh buffs even Swordmasters get beaten down pretty severely. They're also really difficult for cycle charging Dragon Princes to wear down - their high armour and HP minimises damage from non-AP cav, and they hit back really hard each time the cav come in, particularly if they counter-charge. As the cherry on top they're ItP so they can't be terror routed by dragons.

    DE have a lot more AP in their roster which makes Black Orcs less of a guaranteed all-star unit; vs DE I'd really recommend Savage Orcs (both the regular ones and Big Uns) and Trolls. Phys Resist and Regen give these units survivability in a way that all the DE AP units don't counter, and if you have trolls on top of Savage Orc Big Uns with the Waaagh! active that combo will crunch through executioners, Cold One Knights and pretty much anything else in between pretty well. The only downside is that their leadership isn't great - if you don't smash the elves decisively enough on the charge you'll be in trouble, as the Savage Orcs lose stats as they lose frenzy and Trolls rout fast.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Posts: 303Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    MrPros said:

    With the empire I have this problem that My front line struggles against elven one, and if I invest to much into it then my back line get overrun, and handgunners doesnt seems to do as much damage as they supposed to do ;/
    Its sad tho because i Love empire thematicaly

    Well vs DE, which can really launch overwhelming infantry assaults+lots of light cav, I usually wouldn't bother with foot skirmishers. Use your chaff/unbreakable troops to form an anvil/hold the line. Grenade launchers will mulch their infantry in all forms(even their black guard/executioners dont hold out that well, especially not with plague of rust). Win the cav fight and then rear charge the hell out of their infantry, use pistoliers for mop up, counter skirmishing dark riders and that sort of thing.
    Do pistoliers do ok vs harpies? I like grenade launchers too but the harpies can easily wreck them.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 639Registered Users
    Pistoliers are ok vs harpies, but the unit I usually use to mop up harpies is KotBS. A single good charge and they're gone. You have to be aware of your opponents backline harass for sure though, and cant afford to commit your heavy cav to rear charges prematurely. Between searing doom, grenades and plague of rust(depending on your opponents cav presence, you might want to save it to counter CoK's) you can usually apply enough pressure to your opponents infantry elites to force them to make a move with their own cav/harass, which you can then beat with your better cav. Even black guard and executioners(much less SoS or lesser infantry) die to grenade launchers so its not something your opponent can ignore.
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  • MrProsMrPros Posts: 7Registered Users
    And what if the DE player bring ton of CoK ror doomfire amd a couple lf dark roders followed with a couple of inf? I played against build like this and i get my face rolled over by him and i have no idea what i could take against such reckless hate
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 2,368Registered Users
    edited December 2018
    It really depends on your approach. First of all, strategy against Elven factions doesn't really exist. All 3 are very different. That would be like asking a strategy against human factions or undead factions. Obviously you wouldn't bring the same vs Empire and Bretonnia or vs Counts, Coast and Tomb Kings.

    So, you're looking at different approach for 6 matchups here.

    Empire:

    1) Wood Elves - you can expect a lot of missile and kite. You need to decide upfront whether you want to turtle or actively hunt them. Both approaches have their up and downside. If you want to try and catch Wood Elves, I would suggest some swordsmen in the front, some cheapish ranged damage dealers (crossbows, free companies) and a lot of cavalry. If you want to turtle, you need some artillery. Hammer of the Witches and a mortar or two can work, with a few cavalry units used defensively and supported by spears/halberds. Fire Wizard is probably best choice.

    2) High Elves - High Elves archers will do a lot of damage to your state troops, so be wary there. You can go on the offensive as you can actually beat them in cavalry department. Bring RoR demis and some other decent cav (more demis, RoR and regular reiksguard). In that setup, I would suggest a flying Karl Franz as a lord and a Life Wizard, to keep all those expensive units healthy. You have a token melee infantry line and you try to beat their cavalry and then use cycle charging in their back to kill infantry. Don't go heavy on ranged units, Silver Bullets are usually enough.
    Alternatively you can also use artillery and Steam Tank can do surprisingly well. Keep it out of reach of AP missiles and it can do a lot of work. Its cannon is accurate enough to kill cavalry models and if used like a chariot in melee, it can abuse infantry till the end of days.

    3) Dark Elves - most difficult of the 3, imho. They can bring better cavalry for the cost or better infantry, and it is tough to prepare for both. They also have fantastic lords and great lores of magic. Whatever you bring will always be at risk, but Knights of the Blazing Sun can work. They will melt Warlocks (magic resistance and high armour) and have decent enough charge bonus to do some damage to CoK. You can pair them with Gelt and then sunder armour of CoK in isolated engagements or use Final Trans if it comes to a cavalry blob fight.
    For missiles, silver bullets are your best choice and more handgunners if you feel going that way.. Avoid artillery, Dark Elves are very mobile can easily take it out. If you want a defensive setup, bring just hammer of the witches. Use it kill high threats, (altars of khaine, cav, chariots, elite infantry etc...)
    Post edited by Sarmatians on
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 639Registered Users
    MrPros said:

    And what if the DE player bring ton of CoK ror doomfire amd a couple lf dark roders followed with a couple of inf? I played against build like this and i get my face rolled over by him and i have no idea what i could take against such reckless hate

    If they think theyre gonna be clever and fight you in a cav ball, then you nuke them with final transmutation and try to pull your spears into the fight. It'll be tough, but still winnable. You'll get some good benefit from having an empire captain in the fray to soak hits+boost MD at this point, and if you use plague of rust to quickly remove enemy units you should be fine.
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  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,429Registered Users
    edited December 2018
    As Greenskins I think you need to go heavily armoured vs HE (black orcs and arachnaroks), and cheap & wide vs DE. You can actually outskirmish DE, especially with a couple of doomdivers (also great vs flying lords). I find WE the toughest, as the old deepwood scout kite backed by wild riders is still hard to overcome, but so is Durthu and trees - and its very hard indeed to build against both. Versus WE, aggression and mobility is key. You’ll need lots of cheap cav waagh’ed up to beat wild riders, but make sure you have enough AP to deal with a Durthu and tree mix-up.

    Sarmatians sums up the Empire perspective well.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • UniverseBearUniverseBear Posts: 103Registered Users
    I play GS almost exclusively and am pretty high on the leaderboard. Here's a build I use for any elf matchup if I don't feel like coming up with something on the fly. It's super wide and generalist so can deal with most elf armies.

    2 ror night goblins
    4 orc Boyz
    2 savage orc big uns
    2 nasty skulkers
    Rusty arrers and 2 night goblin arrers.
    2 spider riders
    2 wolf riders
    Wurzag
    2 goblin big bosses

    Effigy, smoke bombs, big uns and arrers can deal with DP. Shields for the infantry line give your army a lot of missile resistance. Fast calv is good at taking out their backline or pinning in calv/lords.

    It can deal with heavy infantry lines just by virtue of being meaty, having wurzag buffs and being super wide with a good second line of SOBU's and Nast skulkers if necessary. Orc Boyz actually have good AP for chaff so they perform decent against most infantry with buffs.

    I think this build is best against HE. Against WE I switch up the fast calv for skirms. For DE I may go with savage orcs since they ussually don't bring much missiles. The idea is the same though. Just super wide and generalist.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 2,368Registered Users
    edited December 2018
    Riggsen said:

    As Greenskins I think you need to go heavily armoured vs HE (black orcs and arachnaroks), and cheap & wide vs DE. You can actually outskirmish DE, especially with a couple of doomdivers (also great vs flying lords). I find WE the toughest, as the old deepwood scout kite backed by wild riders is still hard to overcome, but so is Durthu and trees - and its very hard indeed to build against both. Versus WE, aggression and mobility is key. You’ll need lots of cheap cav waagh’ed up to beat wild riders, but make sure you have enough AP to deal with a Durthu and tree mix-up.

    Sarmatians sums up the Empire perspective well.

    Yeah, I suck totally with Greenskins. I can rarely make them work
  • MrProsMrPros Posts: 7Registered Users
    Thanks for help guys ^^ I really appreciate Your help

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