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Channeling mechanic for direct dmg spells

ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
Hi everyone. Today I want to talk about such balance measure for direct dmg spells as channeling ( this idea was discussed many times before - I just want to see its popularity now ). In current meta you are pretty much save while spamming this type of spells and you dont need to think about aim angle or hard terrain. With mentioned change spellcaster will be forced to be in range during spell effect wich helps his opponent to punish this wis range or melee engagement. Of course it is more about such " infamous " spells as Fate of Bjuna, Spirit Leach, Liber Bubonicus and etc. I am not sure that , for example, Final Transmutation can be treated the same way due really high cost in terms of WoM. Also I want to know your thoughts about effective and balanced range for cast/channeling. What do you think ?
Post edited by CA_Will#2514 on
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Comments

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Proposed the same several times before.

    As long as direct damage spells don't have a counterplay element they have no place in this game.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    It's interesting and has always been IMO but its also a pretty big change in terms of balance. If you do this for damage spells, people will soon ask for the same for heals and buffs/debuffs.... I don't think it will happen, but I agree the magic system has room for improvements.
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Above all I think it would be a huge nerf to mobile play style while infantry heavy defensive styles with a well protected foot mage and ranged or summons would be favored.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    It's a matter of taste, but would require all factions to be rebalanced and change the way the game plays. I don't think ca would take that risk when the gain is questionable. May very well be a net loss because it's easier to lose players than attract new ones for an old game.
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  • ThibixMagnus#8300ThibixMagnus#8300 Registered Users Posts: 860
    why would it penalize mobile playstyle ? Cavalry would more easily get out of range of the spell, wouldn't it ?
  • NoSkill4U#6552NoSkill4U#6552 Registered Users Posts: 5,160
    I could imagine direct dmg spells slowing the wizard down or locking him in place, so that you have to protect him.

    Then tho I´d imagine a buff to the direct dmg spells.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031

    why would it penalize mobile playstyle ? Cavalry would more easily get out of range of the spell, wouldn't it ?

    That's assuming that also other types of spells would require channeling, like healing. I can't imagine that such a mechanic would only affect direct damage, that would cause serious imbalance among lores too. If so, then the only way to ensure efficient spell usage will be if your Mage can afford to stand still, so I am thinking foot mage with protection. Just guessing though, maybe mobile plays would still work, guess it would depend on how wom consumption on interrupted spells would be handled.

    In any case I think such big sweeping changes to fix something that not everyone think is broken would be only in game 3 if at all. It's interesting, but probably not on the table...
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,213
    Yeah this looks like it would make DD spells much less usable.

    1. You would only be able to use it on cav/mobile units that are already in combat, or else they will just run out of the cast range. Even then, you would still need to get close
    2. Using them on non-mobile armies would get you filled with projectiles, and mages arnt the tankiest unit. (imagine standing there and channeling a spell against dwarfs lol)
    3. Any mobile lord is going to massively outdamage the spell effect in melee. So spirit leaching someone on a mount is basically ensuring your own death.

    So it would maybe work into units that are already engaged in melee? Preferably with low mobility, and will likely get your mage killed. You could send them with a protective unit sure, but ultimately this seems like a lot of trouble to go through.

    I get that DD spells are obnoxious, but on one hand they are "relatively" balanced through meh damage, short range, and a pretty high mana cost (bjuna/Final transmute/unforging). Wacking them with a nerf this big without any compensation seems a bit unwarranted.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Cukie251 said:

    Yeah this looks like it would make DD spells much less usable.

    An absolute plus in my opinion. Direct damage is cheesy BS and needs to either have proper counters or be removed completely.

    It is not appropriate to allow a cheap transfer between WoM and damage.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Direct damage is really not that different from heals, summons or debuffs, they are all point and click abilities that transforms wom into added or reduced hit points on the board... So either all channels or none in my opinion.

    I agree the whole magic system could use a face lift, but in game three.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,213

    Cukie251 said:

    Yeah this looks like it would make DD spells much less usable.

    An absolute plus in my opinion. Direct damage is cheesy BS and needs to either have proper counters or be removed completely.

    It is not appropriate to allow a cheap transfer between WoM and damage.

    Thats not a solution. You either present a comprehensive rework that actually addresses the issue and leaves the magic usable or you don't do anything.

    Saying:
    "Well I don't find this fun to play against so it should get nerfed out of existence" isn't an argument. Especially when the magic currently isn't overtly broken. There's absolutely no reason to leave it in an unusable state.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,608
    What if direct damage cost WoM for every tic/ of spell you get off as long as you stay in range. SL for example could require the mage to stay in range, but if the spell is interrupted prematurely by the mage falling out of range, you wouldnt lose the spells full WoM value, even thouh you'd have to wait on a new cooldown.

    That would make it more difficult to use DD spells without making them a crippling WoM risk/completely incapacitating the mage.
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  • HorseWithNoNameHorseWithNoName Registered Users Posts: 1,001
    What are the ways to interrrupt a cast OP is suggesting? Just by getting out of range (only really relevant for mobile units) or by attacking/damaging the caster as well? Also, what are the ways OP suggests to compensate for the nerf? Buff the dot-output of those spells or nerf the other spells?
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited December 2018

    What are the ways to interrrupt a cast OP is suggesting? Just by getting out of range (only really relevant for mobile units) or by attacking/damaging the caster as well? Also, what are the ways OP suggests to compensate for the nerf? Buff the dot-output of those spells or nerf the other spells?

    No compensation whatsoever. This is an absolutely necessary nerf.

    In the last few patches for WH1 FoB and Spirit Leech were weakened to the point of uselessness.

    I frankly prefer this over the cheese they churn out here in WH2.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,099

    What are the ways to interrrupt a cast OP is suggesting? Just by getting out of range (only really relevant for mobile units) or by attacking/damaging the caster as well? Also, what are the ways OP suggests to compensate for the nerf? Buff the dot-output of those spells or nerf the other spells?

    No compensation whatsoever. This is an absolutely necessary nerf.

    In the last few patches for WH1 FoB and Spirit Leech were weakened to the point of uselessness.

    I frankly prefer this over the cheese they churn out here in WH2.
    Are you this angry about cannons? Because they do a lot more damage than either SL or FoB, faster, at longer range, very reliably.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,513
    It should apply to all spells or none, since direct damage spells have been nerfed and are not especially strong.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited December 2018

    What are the ways to interrrupt a cast OP is suggesting? Just by getting out of range (only really relevant for mobile units) or by attacking/damaging the caster as well? Also, what are the ways OP suggests to compensate for the nerf? Buff the dot-output of those spells or nerf the other spells?

    No compensation whatsoever. This is an absolutely necessary nerf.

    In the last few patches for WH1 FoB and Spirit Leech were weakened to the point of uselessness.

    I frankly prefer this over the cheese they churn out here in WH2.
    Are you this angry about cannons? Because they do a lot more damage than either SL or FoB, faster, at longer range, very reliably.
    Cannons can miss. They can be hindered by terrain (with many maps where they are simply useless). You can attack them. You can counter them with your own artillery. They force the enemy to divert troops to protect them and root the army somewhat in place. What can you do against someone pointing and clicking on your units? Nothing. Mannfred swoops in, FoBs your elite units into uselessness and swoops out, easily regenerating whatever damage you might have inflicted on him during this.
    eumaies said:

    It should apply to all spells or none, since direct damage spells have been nerfed and are not especially strong.

    No. 3500 drained HP for 20something WoM is still too good a trade and there's no defense whatsoever against it. Nearly all other spells require additional factors to be useful, be it units making use of buffs or debuffs or correct aiming. Point and click damage spells require no finesse.

    They and healing are the only spells that are in need of counterplay.
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