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Wood Elves racial ability idea from tabletop to PC

KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 239Registered Users
Hello, guys and girls!

What do you think about an ability to spawn a forest area on the WE side of the battlefield before the battle starts (in the deploying phase)?
I was thinking about 1 medium-sized forest area or 3 small-sized areas, whichever suits the balance more.
It can be added as a tech tree option, lord's skill or just as a default ability of WE.
If WE are ambushed, they won't have this ability active.

Reason for this ability:
1. High Elves have "Martial Prowess". Dark Elves have "Murderous Prowess". These are somewhat reliable skills that are usually active for some period of the battle.

Many WE units have "Forest Stalker" skills (i.e. waywatchers get more accuracy, wildwood rangers get anti-large and wild riders don't get penalties as other cav units of other races etc.), but if they get a map with no trees or trees on the enemy side of the battle, they won't have a chance to get it at all. I'm suggesting giving them at least some chance.

2. It will make WE more unique and it will bring them closer to their tabletop version.


Comments

  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 10,144Registered Users
    I've always wanted this. +1.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 1,942Registered Users
    Would look weird on desert maps..
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    No.


    Please no.


    Forest simply do not work that well in TW. Arrows miss 100% of the time (which for WEs is a pretty bad deal). Visibility becomes ****. It would make MP battles absurd (as the WE player would camp in the forest 100% of the time).


    It could make sense, however, as a campaign ability. Like if you own a province for an specific amount of uninterrupted time, forest start sprouting, and as a result you get the campaign bonuses (like Durthu's extra ward save for treekins) if you fight there. Which btw, is something I remember happened in WH1. Has it been changed or removed?


  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Posts: 787Registered Users
    Well WE units gain forest stalker it just mitigate maybe half of forest penalty to arrow. Almost all WE archers had a very good acuracy, and forest stalker gave benefits only when archers stay on border of forest. Other time for archers better clear area.
  • psychoakpsychoak Posts: 2,383Registered Users
    Vanguard deployment units with stalk. WE awesomeness is most definitely already covered here...
  • froloffrolof Posts: 296Registered Users
    I don't know if the engine can handle that..
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,327Registered Users
    Pocman said:

    No.


    Please no.


    Forest simply do not work that well in TW. Arrows miss 100% of the time (which for WEs is a pretty bad deal). Visibility becomes ****. It would make MP battles absurd (as the WE player would camp in the forest 100% of the time).


    It could make sense, however, as a campaign ability. Like if you own a province for an specific amount of uninterrupted time, forest start sprouting, and as a result you get the campaign bonuses (like Durthu's extra ward save for treekins) if you fight there. Which btw, is something I remember happened in WH1. Has it been changed or removed?


    Iirc In WH1 durthu didn't have the wardsave for forest spirit if that's what you meant, only the treemen ancient did. The branchwraith gives 15% wardsave to army in forest battles.
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    Louis_1 said:

    Pocman said:

    No.


    Please no.


    Forest simply do not work that well in TW. Arrows miss 100% of the time (which for WEs is a pretty bad deal). Visibility becomes ****. It would make MP battles absurd (as the WE player would camp in the forest 100% of the time).


    It could make sense, however, as a campaign ability. Like if you own a province for an specific amount of uninterrupted time, forest start sprouting, and as a result you get the campaign bonuses (like Durthu's extra ward save for treekins) if you fight there. Which btw, is something I remember happened in WH1. Has it been changed or removed?


    Iirc In WH1 durthu didn't have the wardsave for forest spirit if that's what you meant, only the treemen ancient did. The branchwraith gives 15% wardsave to army in forest battles.
    No, what I meant is that while playing the WH1 campaign, I remember that trees would sproout in the campaign maps in the regions I owned.


    I can't remember if that actually affected the battle map if you fought there.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,559Registered Users
    Pocman said:

    Louis_1 said:

    Pocman said:

    No.


    Please no.


    Forest simply do not work that well in TW. Arrows miss 100% of the time (which for WEs is a pretty bad deal). Visibility becomes ****. It would make MP battles absurd (as the WE player would camp in the forest 100% of the time).


    It could make sense, however, as a campaign ability. Like if you own a province for an specific amount of uninterrupted time, forest start sprouting, and as a result you get the campaign bonuses (like Durthu's extra ward save for treekins) if you fight there. Which btw, is something I remember happened in WH1. Has it been changed or removed?


    Iirc In WH1 durthu didn't have the wardsave for forest spirit if that's what you meant, only the treemen ancient did. The branchwraith gives 15% wardsave to army in forest battles.
    No, what I meant is that while playing the WH1 campaign, I remember that trees would sproout in the campaign maps in the regions I owned.


    I can't remember if that actually affected the battle map if you fought there.
    Trees changing was always race region owner thing in game one as Empire and Bretonnia also changed the trees it's just a cosmetic thing.
    Should also be noted that the WE are rather against expanding the forest considering how they treat Athel Loren i.e waystones containing it along with them actively containing it.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users

    Pocman said:

    Louis_1 said:

    Pocman said:

    No.


    Please no.


    Forest simply do not work that well in TW. Arrows miss 100% of the time (which for WEs is a pretty bad deal). Visibility becomes ****. It would make MP battles absurd (as the WE player would camp in the forest 100% of the time).


    It could make sense, however, as a campaign ability. Like if you own a province for an specific amount of uninterrupted time, forest start sprouting, and as a result you get the campaign bonuses (like Durthu's extra ward save for treekins) if you fight there. Which btw, is something I remember happened in WH1. Has it been changed or removed?


    Iirc In WH1 durthu didn't have the wardsave for forest spirit if that's what you meant, only the treemen ancient did. The branchwraith gives 15% wardsave to army in forest battles.
    No, what I meant is that while playing the WH1 campaign, I remember that trees would sproout in the campaign maps in the regions I owned.


    I can't remember if that actually affected the battle map if you fought there.
    Trees changing was always race region owner thing in game one as Empire and Bretonnia also changed the trees it's just a cosmetic thing.
    Should also be noted that the WE are rather against expanding the forest considering how they treat Athel Loren i.e waystones containing it along with them actively containing it.
    Yep, but that is with Athel Loren, due to it being magical and full of raging, destructive spirits. They don't really have anything against expanding forests per se. In fact, taking into account that they are a race which does not sow, and does not build cities, forests reappearing over time in the regions they own is just nature doing it's work.


    I mean, the problem is that actually, the forest stalker and forest spirit bonus are too powerful, specially for WWR. So, if that change was implemented, there is a clear risk that every WE battle would look like a full infantry WE army, camping in the forest, with glady and waystalker using arrow of Kurnous to force the enemy into going inside, and then WEs winning due to their units doing so much better in the forest.

    It would be like dawi corner camping, but worse.

  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,559Registered Users
    Pocman said:

    Pocman said:

    Louis_1 said:

    Pocman said:

    No.


    Please no.


    Forest simply do not work that well in TW. Arrows miss 100% of the time (which for WEs is a pretty bad deal). Visibility becomes ****. It would make MP battles absurd (as the WE player would camp in the forest 100% of the time).


    It could make sense, however, as a campaign ability. Like if you own a province for an specific amount of uninterrupted time, forest start sprouting, and as a result you get the campaign bonuses (like Durthu's extra ward save for treekins) if you fight there. Which btw, is something I remember happened in WH1. Has it been changed or removed?


    Iirc In WH1 durthu didn't have the wardsave for forest spirit if that's what you meant, only the treemen ancient did. The branchwraith gives 15% wardsave to army in forest battles.
    No, what I meant is that while playing the WH1 campaign, I remember that trees would sproout in the campaign maps in the regions I owned.


    I can't remember if that actually affected the battle map if you fought there.
    Trees changing was always race region owner thing in game one as Empire and Bretonnia also changed the trees it's just a cosmetic thing.
    Should also be noted that the WE are rather against expanding the forest considering how they treat Athel Loren i.e waystones containing it along with them actively containing it.
    Yep, but that is with Athel Loren, due to it being magical and full of raging, destructive spirits. They don't really have anything against expanding forests per se. In fact, taking into account that they are a race which does not sow, and does not build cities, forests reappearing over time in the regions they own is just nature doing it's work.


    I mean, the problem is that actually, the forest stalker and forest spirit bonus are too powerful, specially for WWR. So, if that change was implemented, there is a clear risk that every WE battle would look like a full infantry WE army, camping in the forest, with glady and waystalker using arrow of Kurnous to force the enemy into going inside, and then WEs winning due to their units doing so much better in the forest.

    It would be like dawi corner camping, but worse.

    IT's also because their lore is about Athel Loren any other WE place has at most a line as everything else is about the Elves at Athel Loren and due to the absence of information it can be assumed that they also use waystones the same way along with spellweavers and spellsingers helping.

    but to add to your thing about Forests in TW because of how they work is also why the Athel Loren maps are so open so the WE can use their ranged strength to defend their home instead of having their missiles hit trees rendering them nearly useless. (I also remember a member of CA not wanting WE players to camp forests but can't clearly remember who and when.)
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users

    Pocman said:

    Pocman said:

    Louis_1 said:

    Pocman said:

    No.


    Please no.


    Forest simply do not work that well in TW. Arrows miss 100% of the time (which for WEs is a pretty bad deal). Visibility becomes ****. It would make MP battles absurd (as the WE player would camp in the forest 100% of the time).


    It could make sense, however, as a campaign ability. Like if you own a province for an specific amount of uninterrupted time, forest start sprouting, and as a result you get the campaign bonuses (like Durthu's extra ward save for treekins) if you fight there. Which btw, is something I remember happened in WH1. Has it been changed or removed?


    Iirc In WH1 durthu didn't have the wardsave for forest spirit if that's what you meant, only the treemen ancient did. The branchwraith gives 15% wardsave to army in forest battles.
    No, what I meant is that while playing the WH1 campaign, I remember that trees would sproout in the campaign maps in the regions I owned.


    I can't remember if that actually affected the battle map if you fought there.
    Trees changing was always race region owner thing in game one as Empire and Bretonnia also changed the trees it's just a cosmetic thing.
    Should also be noted that the WE are rather against expanding the forest considering how they treat Athel Loren i.e waystones containing it along with them actively containing it.
    Yep, but that is with Athel Loren, due to it being magical and full of raging, destructive spirits. They don't really have anything against expanding forests per se. In fact, taking into account that they are a race which does not sow, and does not build cities, forests reappearing over time in the regions they own is just nature doing it's work.


    I mean, the problem is that actually, the forest stalker and forest spirit bonus are too powerful, specially for WWR. So, if that change was implemented, there is a clear risk that every WE battle would look like a full infantry WE army, camping in the forest, with glady and waystalker using arrow of Kurnous to force the enemy into going inside, and then WEs winning due to their units doing so much better in the forest.

    It would be like dawi corner camping, but worse.

    IT's also because their lore is about Athel Loren any other WE place has at most a line as everything else is about the Elves at Athel Loren and due to the absence of information it can be assumed that they also use waystones the same way along with spellweavers and spellsingers helping.

    but to add to your thing about Forests in TW because of how they work is also why the Athel Loren maps are so open so the WE can use their ranged strength to defend their home instead of having their missiles hit trees rendering them nearly useless. (I also remember a member of CA not wanting WE players to camp forests but can't clearly remember who and when.)


    IT's also because their lore is about Athel Loren any other WE place has at most a line as everything else is about the Elves at Athel Loren and due to the absence of information it can be assumed that they also use waystones the same way along with spellweavers and spellsingers helping.

    Can you explain this with more detail? By your lore you mean their magic lore?

    I don't think there were wood elves communities outside Athel Loren (except as mercenaries or when they are in a mission, etc.)


  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,559Registered Users
    Pocman said:

    Pocman said:

    Pocman said:

    Louis_1 said:

    Pocman said:

    No.


    Please no.


    Forest simply do not work that well in TW. Arrows miss 100% of the time (which for WEs is a pretty bad deal). Visibility becomes ****. It would make MP battles absurd (as the WE player would camp in the forest 100% of the time).


    It could make sense, however, as a campaign ability. Like if you own a province for an specific amount of uninterrupted time, forest start sprouting, and as a result you get the campaign bonuses (like Durthu's extra ward save for treekins) if you fight there. Which btw, is something I remember happened in WH1. Has it been changed or removed?


    Iirc In WH1 durthu didn't have the wardsave for forest spirit if that's what you meant, only the treemen ancient did. The branchwraith gives 15% wardsave to army in forest battles.
    No, what I meant is that while playing the WH1 campaign, I remember that trees would sproout in the campaign maps in the regions I owned.


    I can't remember if that actually affected the battle map if you fought there.
    Trees changing was always race region owner thing in game one as Empire and Bretonnia also changed the trees it's just a cosmetic thing.
    Should also be noted that the WE are rather against expanding the forest considering how they treat Athel Loren i.e waystones containing it along with them actively containing it.
    Yep, but that is with Athel Loren, due to it being magical and full of raging, destructive spirits. They don't really have anything against expanding forests per se. In fact, taking into account that they are a race which does not sow, and does not build cities, forests reappearing over time in the regions they own is just nature doing it's work.


    I mean, the problem is that actually, the forest stalker and forest spirit bonus are too powerful, specially for WWR. So, if that change was implemented, there is a clear risk that every WE battle would look like a full infantry WE army, camping in the forest, with glady and waystalker using arrow of Kurnous to force the enemy into going inside, and then WEs winning due to their units doing so much better in the forest.

    It would be like dawi corner camping, but worse.

    IT's also because their lore is about Athel Loren any other WE place has at most a line as everything else is about the Elves at Athel Loren and due to the absence of information it can be assumed that they also use waystones the same way along with spellweavers and spellsingers helping.

    but to add to your thing about Forests in TW because of how they work is also why the Athel Loren maps are so open so the WE can use their ranged strength to defend their home instead of having their missiles hit trees rendering them nearly useless. (I also remember a member of CA not wanting WE players to camp forests but can't clearly remember who and when.)


    IT's also because their lore is about Athel Loren any other WE place has at most a line as everything else is about the Elves at Athel Loren and due to the absence of information it can be assumed that they also use waystones the same way along with spellweavers and spellsingers helping.

    Can you explain this with more detail? By your lore you mean their magic lore?

    I don't think there were wood elves communities outside Athel Loren (except as mercenaries or when they are in a mission, etc.)


    By lore I mean stuff like army books and etc.
    like how the below is listed within their army book.

    On occasion, when summer is at its highest, the trees can even overwhelm the waystones and spill into the lands beyond. When this happens, the Spellsingers and Spellweavers of Athel Loren quickly let loose their magics in order to coax the trees back to their proper home.

    Warhammer Armies: Wood Elves (8th Edition) pg 13

    Think the only WE places outside of AL is from ye olden Oreon and maybe something in the haunted forest going by the World Roots map.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 239Registered Users

    Would look weird on desert maps..

    It can be stylised for a specific type of landscape. Like palms or dying trees in the desert.
    Pocman said:


    Forest simply do not work that well in TW. Arrows miss 100% of the time (which for WEs is a pretty bad deal). Visibility becomes ****.

    If I remember correctly, in the tabletop version this type of forest didn't provide a cover bonus for troops, so it can be made transparent to arrows, both incoming and outcoming. Whichever variant will suit the balance more.
    If CA does something different with the forest in WH 3 this can be an interesting option for WE.
    Pocman said:

    It would make MP battles absurd (as the WE player would camp in the forest 100% of the time).

    There are so many options. You can make this forest area to give bonuses but not invisibility and cover or give just cover, or make it reveal hiding units easier than regular forest.

    You can make this ability different in MP. Restricting placement even more and reducing the size of the forest areas you can put. So if the enemy has artillery it will actually be more painful for WE to hide their army in that area.

    Another option as you've already mentioned would be to remove this ability from MP completely.

    IT's also because their lore is about Athel Loren

    I don't think there were wood elves communities outside Athel Loren (except as mercenaries or when they are in a mission, etc.)


    According to the lore (an 8th edition which is currently used by CA as a reference I think) world roots of Athel Loren spread almost across the entire map. So there is an option for growing trees anywhere. Thats an excuse for tabletop WE to place forest citadels in the games against any factions.




    So ability can also be made like this: at the start of the game you are given an area where worldroots spread and as the game progresses this area increases in the size and spreads across the world due to amber quantity, or tech tree upgrades or provinces owned etc.

    Vanguard deployment units with stalk. WE awesomeness is most definitely already covered here...

    My guess is - vanguard deployment and stalk is the representation of another ability of tabletop WE where you can remove troops from the border of the battlefield and next turn place them on the other side of the map. Now this option would be really OP and annoying for WE opponents.

    I mean, the problem is that actually, the forest stalker and forest spirit bonus are too powerful, specially for WWR.



    Guys everything that you are worried about can be tweaked and changed to suit the balance.

    Too powerful bonuses can be reduced or changed (i.e. if your units in the forest + they have 75%+ of their leadership then units receive the bonus, something like HE martial prowess).

    It can be 3 small forest areas but no option to place them close to each other, no option to place them in vanguard or near the borders of the map.

    If it is too OP - make this forest area transparent just to give bonuses and no hiding.

    The main reason for this change is to give WE some more consistency and reliability in using their "Forest Stalker". Because most of the time WE can't use it. Even when they are fighting in their homeland peninsula.
    I often find myself on the battlefield where there is no forest on my side of the map or no forest at all for the entire map.
    It means I have 0% chance to use my "Forest Stalker".
    Mind you that this ability is active only for units in the forest, not all the units as HE or DE have.



  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    If CA adss something like this, they should go all or nothing. Either rework WEs to be 100% forest based, making WEs battle by controlling the forest to get this bonus (imho, won't work due to how physics work in TW) or just leave as it is.


    Giving WEs a mechanic to spout phantom forests that do not provide actual cover, and that do not work the same way a normal tree would, makes little sense. If you are going to invest that much effort, at least make it as a proper forest. So much work just to get a secondary buff that is already a balance problem. Specially taking into account that Forest stalker was added just as a little loreful snippet (CA said it themselves) that was not supposed to affect balance in any way.

    In TT, this ability came from the fact that the Oak of Ages could be used to create forests very quickly. It was used to grow back the parts of the forest that were burned by attacks/raids. So it makes more sense as a campaign thing than a battle thing, imho.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,327Registered Users
    forest stalker should only give speed and accuracy/reload bonuses. I think any hypothetical forest sprouting (either through a campaign mechanic or through adding the lore of athel loren magic should provide missile cover/stalk like a regular forest and speed bonuses + accuracy/reload.

    But fighting in forests is generally one of the least enjoyable things you can do in WH2 so I don't think encouraging more forest fighting is a good thing.
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 239Registered Users
    Pocman said:

    If CA adss something like this, they should go all or nothing. Either rework WEs to be 100% forest based, making WEs battle by controlling the forest to get this bonus (imho, won't work due to how physics work in TW) or just leave as it is.


    Giving WEs a mechanic to spout phantom forests that do not provide actual cover, and that do not work the same way a normal tree would, makes little sense. If you are going to invest that much effort, at least make it as a proper forest. So much work just to get a secondary buff that is already a balance problem. Specially taking into account that Forest stalker was added just as a little loreful snippet (CA said it themselves) that was not supposed to affect balance in any way.

    In TT, this ability came from the fact that the Oak of Ages could be used to create forests very quickly. It was used to grow back the parts of the forest that were burned by attacks/raids. So it makes more sense as a campaign thing than a battle thing, imho.

    1. Personally, I don't see a problem with the implementation.

    Make it like a unit spawn ability (manticore spawn or ushabti) but before the battle.
    Make these "units" immovable.
    This "unit" gives aura "Forest Stalker" for friendly units within it.
    2-3 40x40 range size areas which will be like strategic points that provide bonuses.

    Give it real forest abilities or make it unique.


    2. How is it a balance problem? Are the bonuses too high?
    WE currently have this ability in MP. If they get a map with a forest or end up fighting in one - does it mean they have much higher chances to win? Then isn't this a problem?
    I suggest making it less random by lowering the bonuses on some units but giving more control over the use of this ability in the first place.

    It is better than having heads or tails situation where you either have no options to have it or have it too often because you are lucky.

    Battle and overall vision in the forest battles should be changed - I agree on this 100%.

  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    Yep, the MD bonus is too high. Fighting WEs in forest tends to be impossible.




    What most of the community wants is it going back to its WH1 state: speed + accuracy bonus. And maybe making the speed buff last for lets say, 20 seconds after you leave the forest.


    That way it would not make units OP, while it would give a loreful advantage to WE units in terms of tactics, mannouvering, etc.

  • lucibuislucibuis Posts: 2,495Registered Users
    edited December 2018
    I personally like the strong bonus (how strong is it though?) for fighting in forest. It makes the faction more unique.

    Better to improve forest visibility, for example make units glow or something
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 239Registered Users
    lucibuis said:

    I personally like the strong bonus (how strong is it though?) for fighting in forest. It makes the faction more unique.

    Better to improve forest visibility, for example make units glow or something

    It's +15%-20% melee defence (not shure) and +50% accuracy. So to benefit from it at full potential you should ideally have all your troops, both ranged and melee in the forest.
    BTW White Lions get +20% MD and +10% MA in the forest, add Martial Prowess to that and I don't know how is it OP.
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users

    lucibuis said:

    I personally like the strong bonus (how strong is it though?) for fighting in forest. It makes the faction more unique.

    Better to improve forest visibility, for example make units glow or something

    It's +15%-20% melee defence (not shure) and +50% accuracy. So to benefit from it at full potential you should ideally have all your troops, both ranged and melee in the forest.
    BTW White Lions get +20% MD and +10% MA in the forest, add Martial Prowess to that and I don't know how is it OP.
    White Lions are OP in forested maps.


    Situational bonuses like aquatic, forest stalker, etc, have to go, or be nerfed a lot.
  • Lin_HuichiLin_Huichi Posts: 305Registered Users
    I find that most maps have some foliage you can hide in. I don't think Wood elves need such a mechanic.
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 1,371Registered Users
    Pocman said:

    lucibuis said:

    I personally like the strong bonus (how strong is it though?) for fighting in forest. It makes the faction more unique.

    Better to improve forest visibility, for example make units glow or something

    It's +15%-20% melee defence (not shure) and +50% accuracy. So to benefit from it at full potential you should ideally have all your troops, both ranged and melee in the forest.
    BTW White Lions get +20% MD and +10% MA in the forest, add Martial Prowess to that and I don't know how is it OP.
    White Lions are OP in forested maps.


    Situational bonuses like aquatic, forest stalker, etc, have to go, or be nerfed a lot.
    I actually like that White Lions are great in forests. It's the only time they actually act like the elite fighters they are supposed to be.

    I can see how that would be an issue for balance, however.
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