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A great post. There were some things I did not know, and CA should really look into this. Especially the Eat Captives, for that is just one numerical adjustment easily made, and changes the replenishment already substantially.
I've been talking about poor post-battle loot and post-battle actions for TWW1 races since the release of ME, but according to self-proclaimed experts from the forums, they are fine balanced, and I just don't understand it because of "complexity of factors" XD
It was a good read. I think everybody who's played a GS campaign in TWW2 would agree. I couldn't finish my own campaign. Like you said, a challenge is fun, but being constantly frustrated is... not.
A rework to the WAAAGH mechanic first and foremost. Replenishment and economy is next. Those three aspects would make the campaign not broken.
But to make the campaign fun, adding missing heroes and lords and mounts would go a long way. And with the precedent set by the VC rework, it isn't unrealistic.
In general I would prefer a nerf to replenishment to all factions, limiting elite units in general and that they make overwhelming with numbers a viable tactic, but now we move into the unrealistic territory.
Anyway, I'm just echoing what's been said a billion times before, but I very much look forward to this rework and hope I'm not let down too much. Bloodlines for VC was a gimmick, but I didn't find the campaign broken before the rework so it was a good and fun addition. Fixing GS is a much greater endeavour.
A great post. There were some things I did not know, and CA should really look into this. Especially the Eat Captives, for that is just one numerical adjustment easily made, and changes the replenishment already substantially.
I've been talking about poor post-battle loot and post-battle actions for TWW1 races since the release of ME, but according to self-proclaimed experts from the forums, they are fine balanced, and I just don't understand it because of "complexity of factors" XD
Isn't that always the respond you get when you try to correct the so called "experts"? They just say "you know nothing man. I have done this for years" and the conversation is over: proof by intimidation. But replenishment really needs fixing, if it is that bad as the OP says. Maybe that would have helped a few months back, when the Dawitide was still a thing. Could have given the Orcs some more punching power.
Races I'd like to see, in order of preference: Chaos Dwarfs, Southern Realm/ DoW, Araby, Nippon, Hobgoblin Kharnate, Kuresh, Ind.
Excellent read that goes a long way toward identifying most of the major problems with the GS. CA need to completely revamp the WAAAGH mechanic to give the player more control and so the player can use it more proactively.
Replenishment is an odd issue. As others have said - GS and Skaven should have ridiculous replenishment rates whereas other races - HE, DE, Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs, Lizardmen etc. should not. Correcting this involves nerfing their rates of replenishment.
On the GS economy, I agree that it’s an issue and perhaps adding one more tier to the income producing building would be helpful, but I think it should cap there. Raiding/sacking should remain the primary source of income for the GS.
As far as units go, I think we’ll see BOrcs with shields. Stone Trolls would be nice too as well as the BOrc Big Biss hero. And yeah, give the Goblin Shanan Hero the Arachnarok Spider mount. Shouldn’t be hard to do that stuff.
Last thing. @Rolf1989 raised this in his post above. On TT, there were limits to the number of elite units one could field in an army. I’d like to see a version of that rule set adopted. Neither the player nor the AI should be able to field armies of nothing but elite units. It’s not loreful and it’s boring.
TEARS FOR THE SALT GOD !!! MODS FOR THE BUTHURT !!!
Hard to say negative comments to a thoughtful review. My only concern is how they balance the additional mechanics for normal difficulty players though. Anyhow, I still give you a big like.
Got an idea or two regarding replenishment after reading through OPs post again: In case the GS will not get some of the stuff they lack for this, they should rework the Idolz line of buildings. Not stopping at T3 but going all the way up to T5 and with changed numbers of course. No 2/3/4 as it is now but rather something like 3/6/9/12/15 province-wide and 2/4/6 for neighbouring provinces, starting at T3 and at T5 a global effect of 2% or something like that.
For the part with heroes, I think that they could already have it. Though they would need to rearrange the current campaign abilities of them. Right now, the Goblin Big Boss goes with untainted and both shamans have public order. Assuming we are getting only one Orc Big Boss I would give one of the two shamans replenishment and the Goblin Big Boss Public Order or Increase Income and the other ability to the Orc Big Boss. (Goblin Big Boss having untainted did never even make the slightest amount of sense to me anyway.)
If for no other reason, than they sould rework the blue line of skills to make room for replenishment. Tie the three "money-makers" up to two, one for the options after field-battle and one for the options after siege-battle and now there is room for a replenishment skill!
They should also simply remove ai-controlled armies altogether and give a huge buff to replenishment instead. (Something like +50%) Well, unless they go for the Five steps the OP wrote regarding Fightiness.
As for units, I would say that at least Stone Trolls could be easily made by making a reskin of either normal Trolls or Ice Trolls. I would also really like to have the Spear Chukka as well.
I have big respect for the fact you where even able to finish the GS campaign ! I was never able to do so my self with them.
No offence to any GS fans , but in my eyes they are so tremdously tedious and boring. They lack any effort and willpower that other factions do have going on for them. Why ? I Absolutly don't know. You would think that such a thematic and energetic faction could be made into a GREAT faction to play with.
For this matter I also think the greenskins deserve there overhaul more then ANY other faction on this point. It means something coming from me because I hate the greenskins and I am completely disconnected with there style and nature of there faction. I really look forward for the empire overhaul but I am honest to myself and know GS deserve it first.
They seems so lack luster to me in so many ways, the only good thing CA did in my eyes where Skarsnik and Wurrzag (2 great and fun lords to play with! ) purely because they added some flavour and theme to the GS style. It was kind of fun to play as a goblin only army with Skarnik and try the campaign without the need of orcs , or play an all savage orc army with Wurrzag while he dances around and stands in front of the great savage green tide (love the shaman feeling he beings to the table with his savage orcs with add style and theme in my eyes). But still, i can't find the strenght to finish a campaign with the greenskins.
Beside that, they are so poorly made.
I seriously came to my personal conclusion that they are being left out purely because CA dislikes or even hates them themself. Look at there favourite faction, vampire counts and how much love they receive and still get. (If I am correct, a few years ago I red ca said themself they loved the VC mostly. This was in the days of warhammer 1 and was an answer to a question some fan asked. Could be wrong)
Don't get me wrong, I am NOT complaining, in the contrary, i am lucky because gs is not my style and vampire counts, TK and Lizardman are totally my thing so I am on the good side of factions which receive some real love. But I personally feel very bad for GS fans, they deserve something.
Look at it objectivly, there is no denying that the greenskins are on the bottom of the list of races/factions which are left out the most. Again, this means something coming from someone like me. I hate them but it's obvious. Painfully obvious. That's why they should have there overhaul first. They deserve it more then ANY other race in my eyes.
Please note; I am not attacking any GS fans or CA for the matter. It's just the way I see it.
Dark Lord D the Fearsome (I) ~~~ First Dark Lord of the Old World.
--~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
is goblin lord superior vs orc lord, i always recruited orc lord because orcs da best. but i recently found out goblin lord give poisen ( black orcs with poisen ) and with the squiq mount the gobo lord becomes quite a beast vs infantry + his active use 44 missile resist. what does the orc truly offer beside his wyvern.
Playing one of the most ferocious factions passively just won't cut it. They need to be raiding, on the move and always at war and fighting. Which is why they have fightiness and a weak economy. They more than make up for it in raids which you can successfully do with less than 17 in an army and keep them that way as mobile money earners.
When I play them I virtually declare war on all I can find and then extort them for peace treaties, which can also be profitable. War and ruination of enemy cities is the way to play them.
Makes me thirst for another legendary orc game, which I might soon as I'm done playing this Lahmia campaign test.
"Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein Kislev - from darkness to light.19/3
Last thing. @Rolf1989 raised this in his post above. On TT, there were limits to the number of elite units one could field in an army. I’d like to see a version of that rule set adopted. Neither the player nor the AI should be able to field armies of nothing but elite units. It’s not loreful and it’s boring.
Definitely a must, SFO has such limits too so it shouldn't be a hard thing to implement. So when i switched to vanilla campaign after a while, it was pretty astonishing to encounter a nightmare Noctilus army with 10x Necrofex and 8x Leviathan
An interesting post you have some nice ideas in there. I'm not sure I agree with Black orcs being the only viable unit late game but I did an orc play through in TWW1 and I like having strong stacks but blanaced as I find it easy to counter AI doom stacks like mass dragons etc but I get some people do doom stacks. Additionally to say low that become useless I still find they are good if you need a few extra stacks and to reinforce garrisons etc. I am up for CA making changes as long as they stick to the lore and are balanced so that skill dictates victory (granted in some match ups with such an asymmetric game it might not be possible but they seem to be doing really well with balance as it is).
My thought on the Waaagh and bray heard armies is have them operate in the same way except let you control them directly and their raiding only gives half the cash (their leader is skimming off the top for him self) maybe have a character tree point to let you get 100% from their raiding. I would also give them their own fightniess bar so you can't sit with them in defense they must stay active or they will die off or become a rebel army (this is whilst also having them bound to their parent armies bar so if they loose too much or die same as above happens). You could also have a large radius around the parent army that they must stay in or they will begin to loose a lot of fightniess to prevent players from abusing free controllable armies by spawning them then sending them off huge distances to do damage for free and not caring about losing them.
CA guys did not cope with nations focused on the number of cheap units.
So I do not play orcs, rats or vampires. here it must be said that only orcs are in such a desperate situation. Because they have only black orcs and a big spider from elite units, while the rest of the units are trash.
Another problem that I have with this game is that in the late game, the army consists only of elite units. I need that the armies include the basic units from which this breed is famous. Empire - free campaigns, swordsmen, whips. Rats - slaves and clan rats Vampires - zombies and skeletons warriors Orcs and goblins - orcs and goblins ...
The problem is the lack of cash limits in the campaign. Where the clashes are usually 20 or 20 units. What is the point in giving an ordinary orc to the army when the opponent has an infantry line composed of Hammerers ??
I use mods to limit elite units. but it does not change the situation of orcs and goblins too much. Their basic units lose the 1-on-1 battle with units of other nations.
I always wanted the WHAAA mechanic to add additional units above state 20. So that the army would have 30 units fighting the army.
Yeah...elite armies are a nightmare. You're right. I don't recall setup rules for WHFB, but in 40K (in my day) you were limited to 3 elites at best. 3 heavies, too. But you could have 6 "troops". This was precisely TO defeat the concept of elite armies. Granted, space marines and eldar... but... they had much higher point costs and lower model counts to make up for it.
Greenskins can field an elite army, but like you said, it's just black orcs, arachnaroks, and maybe some squig hoppers. It's too bulky, slow, and unvaried to actually matter... and easily countered to boot because the elite greenskins aren't that elite.
Greenskins Warbosses are actually FAR less beastly in melee than they SHOULD be. A powerful "leader" cadre was always the 'ard core of a Greenskins force -- because their leaders only GET that way from being super badass combatants.
Also... there's a hard limit of 4 armies per side in a battle reinforcements wise. This needs to GO. Why? Because I've literally been in situations where I have 12 armies in one spot (waaaghs included) and I'm laying siege to an enemy city with 4 armies total. I can beat this. Easily. In one long, steady, grindy ass battle. HOWEVER.... it's 4 on 4, where GREENSKINS troops are seriously disadvantaged due to being NOT elite. Once you lose that battle though, your forces ALL scramble back ridiculously far, instead of maintaining a siege or containing the enemy. So you can't even really regroup and try again... and even if you can, you're still still bottlenecked because you can't use all your stacks, AND if you lose again (and yes, it easily happens when facing multiple all-elite dwarf stacks with a greenskins army) you certainly wont be able to regroup. There is NO "war of attrition" style or "overwhelming numbers" style of play in this game... except potentially with Skaven because they can summon units for days in the right scenario. Getting rid of the hard limit of 4 armies to a side in a battle would help TREMENDOUSLY because then you could just keep calling in reinforcements for days and really let your hordes of **** units shine.
Regarding reinforcements..... why is it random and useless? You need to be able to set which armies reinforce in what order like you could in older games. Seriously. Don't remove old features and go backwards, CA....
CA guys did not cope with nations focused on the number of cheap units.
So I do not play orcs, rats or vampires. here it must be said that only orcs are in such a desperate situation. Because they have only black orcs and a big spider from elite units, while the rest of the units are trash.
Another problem that I have with this game is that in the late game, the army consists only of elite units. I need that the armies include the basic units from which this breed is famous. Empire - free campaigns, swordsmen, whips. Rats - slaves and clan rats Vampires - zombies and skeletons warriors Orcs and goblins - orcs and goblins ...
The problem is the lack of cash limits in the campaign. Where the clashes are usually 20 or 20 units. What is the point in giving an ordinary orc to the army when the opponent has an infantry line composed of Hammerers ??
I use mods to limit elite units. but it does not change the situation of orcs and goblins too much. Their basic units lose the 1-on-1 battle with units of other nations.
I always wanted the WHAAA mechanic to add additional units above state 20. So that the army would have 30 units fighting the army.
Yeah...elite armies are a nightmare. You're right. I don't recall setup rules for WHFB, but in 40K (in my day) you were limited to 3 elites at best. 3 heavies, too. But you could have 6 "troops". This was precisely TO defeat the concept of elite armies. Granted, space marines and eldar... but... they had much higher point costs and lower model counts to make up for it.
Greenskins can field an elite army, but like you said, it's just black orcs, arachnaroks, and maybe some squig hoppers. It's too bulky, slow, and unvaried to actually matter... and easily countered to boot because the elite greenskins aren't that elite.
Greenskins Warbosses are actually FAR less beastly in melee than they SHOULD be. A powerful "leader" cadre was always the 'ard core of a Greenskins force -- because their leaders only GET that way from being super badass combatants.
Also... there's a hard limit of 4 armies per side in a battle reinforcements wise. This needs to GO. Why? Because I've literally been in situations where I have 12 armies in one spot (waaaghs included) and I'm laying siege to an enemy city with 4 armies total. I can beat this. Easily. In one long, steady, grindy ass battle. HOWEVER.... it's 4 on 4, where GREENSKINS troops are seriously disadvantaged due to being NOT elite. Once you lose that battle though, your forces ALL scramble back ridiculously far, instead of maintaining a siege or containing the enemy. So you can't even really regroup and try again... and even if you can, you're still still bottlenecked because you can't use all your stacks, AND if you lose again (and yes, it easily happens when facing multiple all-elite dwarf stacks with a greenskins army) you certainly wont be able to regroup. There is NO "war of attrition" style or "overwhelming numbers" style of play in this game... except potentially with Skaven because they can summon units for days in the right scenario. Getting rid of the hard limit of 4 armies to a side in a battle would help TREMENDOUSLY because then you could just keep calling in reinforcements for days and really let your hordes of **** units shine.
Regarding reinforcements..... why is it random and useless? You need to be able to set which armies reinforce in what order like you could in older games. Seriously. Don't remove old features and go backwards, CA....
in which game could you set the order of reinforcements I have played most TW games since rome 1 but I do not remember that
snip
It's much easier and more fun to get engrossed in lore that takes itself seriously and tries to make sense within its own frame of reference.
the reason I prefer LOTR over warhammer fantasy and 40k
I am dutch so if you like to have a talk in dutch shoot me a PM
Idea: Waaagh armies are fully player controlled but have the opposite of the rivalry ability that Chaos has, in that they suffer attrition when far from a friendly army (which makes sense since the waaagh is organized around the leader). They could also disable recruitment or limit it to low tier units.
While I haven’t read you’re post in entirety, I do want to point out that Orcs(and Vampires for that matter) dominate late game as the AI. If you play as any faction that doesn’t immediately interfere with the Greenskins(or vampires for that matter) these 2 factions gain a lot of speed very quickly. They paint the map black and green. I wonder what the AI does that makes it so easy for them but makes it an excercise for the player
While I haven’t read you’re post in entirety, I do want to point out that Orcs(and Vampires for that matter) dominate late game as the AI. If you play as any faction that doesn’t immediately interfere with the Greenskins(or vampires for that matter) these 2 factions gain a lot of speed very quickly. They paint the map black and green. I wonder what the AI does that makes it so easy for them but makes it an excercise for the player
Which AI map paints has nothing to do with strength of roster. The auto resolve favors certain things, certain factions and the like which has nothing to do when you the player are actually fighting them, or playing them on the actual battle maps.
Or at least map mechanics or more often the safety of that faction. Like the High Elves in fortress Ulthuan which only in a minor handful of games have truly been the end game faction I'm fighting than any other.
While I haven’t read you’re post in entirety, I do want to point out that Orcs(and Vampires for that matter) dominate late game as the AI. If you play as any faction that doesn’t immediately interfere with the Greenskins(or vampires for that matter) these 2 factions gain a lot of speed very quickly. They paint the map black and green. I wonder what the AI does that makes it so easy for them but makes it an excercise for the player
Which AI map paints has nothing to do with strength of roster. The auto resolve favors certain things, certain factions and the like which has nothing to do when you the player are actually fighting them, or playing them on the actual battle maps.
Or at least map mechanics or more often the safety of that faction. Like the High Elves in fortress Ulthuan which only in a minor handful of games have truly been the end game faction I'm fighting than any other.
Considering the autoresolve is dictated based on how they balance the roster which comes right down to points they use to evaluate auto resolve I think this counts for a lot. Right down to upkeep costs, faction starting wealth, faction mechanics regarding confederation and public order. Many people claim the Vampire counts have become OP since they’ve been updated but people claim the the Orcs are under powered yet both perform largely just as well as each other on the campaign map. I agree Orcs need an update but I think it’s foolish to paint them with 2 different brushes under the same circumstances.
Edit:
I should end that with same results but different circumstances. Vamps got buffed Orcs didn’t but both achieve the same thing on their own.
CA guys did not cope with nations focused on the number of cheap units.
So I do not play orcs, rats or vampires. here it must be said that only orcs are in such a desperate situation. Because they have only black orcs and a big spider from elite units, while the rest of the units are trash.
Another problem that I have with this game is that in the late game, the army consists only of elite units. I need that the armies include the basic units from which this breed is famous. Empire - free campaigns, swordsmen, whips. Rats - slaves and clan rats Vampires - zombies and skeletons warriors Orcs and goblins - orcs and goblins ...
The problem is the lack of cash limits in the campaign. Where the clashes are usually 20 or 20 units. What is the point in giving an ordinary orc to the army when the opponent has an infantry line composed of Hammerers ??
I use mods to limit elite units. but it does not change the situation of orcs and goblins too much. Their basic units lose the 1-on-1 battle with units of other nations.
I always wanted the WHAAA mechanic to add additional units above state 20. So that the army would have 30 units fighting the army.
Yeah...elite armies are a nightmare. You're right. I don't recall setup rules for WHFB, but in 40K (in my day) you were limited to 3 elites at best. 3 heavies, too. But you could have 6 "troops". This was precisely TO defeat the concept of elite armies. Granted, space marines and eldar... but... they had much higher point costs and lower model counts to make up for it.
Greenskins can field an elite army, but like you said, it's just black orcs, arachnaroks, and maybe some squig hoppers. It's too bulky, slow, and unvaried to actually matter... and easily countered to boot because the elite greenskins aren't that elite.
Greenskins Warbosses are actually FAR less beastly in melee than they SHOULD be. A powerful "leader" cadre was always the 'ard core of a Greenskins force -- because their leaders only GET that way from being super badass combatants.
Also... there's a hard limit of 4 armies per side in a battle reinforcements wise. This needs to GO. Why? Because I've literally been in situations where I have 12 armies in one spot (waaaghs included) and I'm laying siege to an enemy city with 4 armies total. I can beat this. Easily. In one long, steady, grindy ass battle. HOWEVER.... it's 4 on 4, where GREENSKINS troops are seriously disadvantaged due to being NOT elite. Once you lose that battle though, your forces ALL scramble back ridiculously far, instead of maintaining a siege or containing the enemy. So you can't even really regroup and try again... and even if you can, you're still still bottlenecked because you can't use all your stacks, AND if you lose again (and yes, it easily happens when facing multiple all-elite dwarf stacks with a greenskins army) you certainly wont be able to regroup. There is NO "war of attrition" style or "overwhelming numbers" style of play in this game... except potentially with Skaven because they can summon units for days in the right scenario. Getting rid of the hard limit of 4 armies to a side in a battle would help TREMENDOUSLY because then you could just keep calling in reinforcements for days and really let your hordes of **** units shine.
Regarding reinforcements..... why is it random and useless? You need to be able to set which armies reinforce in what order like you could in older games. Seriously. Don't remove old features and go backwards, CA....
in which game could you set the order of reinforcements I have played most TW games since rome 1 but I do not remember that
I believe it actually was Shogun - Rome 1. Been a long time though, it might have ended with medieval? You couldn't adjust the army units individually... instead you chose which army reinforced next, and how you had arranged the unit cards in that army dictated (from left to right) who reinforced. You could set the unit order in your army itself, you could pick which lord reinforced next in the pre-battle screen. So it was two things that worked in tandem rather than 1 thing where you can just slide things around however you wanted.
You had to set up your armies before hand (you didnt need generals back then either, you had captains) and then selected which army came in what order. With practice it allowed you to set up a reinforcement however you wanted.
While I haven’t read you’re post in entirety, I do want to point out that Orcs(and Vampires for that matter) dominate late game as the AI. If you play as any faction that doesn’t immediately interfere with the Greenskins(or vampires for that matter) these 2 factions gain a lot of speed very quickly. They paint the map black and green. I wonder what the AI does that makes it so easy for them but makes it an excercise for the player
In single player campaigns, the AI factions are saturated with all kinds of buffs. In Very Hard and Legendary campaign difficulty, for example, the AI can never go bankrupt. In addition to this, they receive large bonuses to public order and their favored type of corruption. The Greenskins AI does well because it simply gets to sidestep all of the campaign mechanics the player has to deal with. Being an aggressive main faction surrounded by minor factions, they confederate quickly and gobble up all of the land. Something similar happens with the Vampire Counts, although that particular faction is in a very good spot at the moment.
In addition, I believe it was CeltiK (the creator of the Community Bugfix Mod) who pointed out that the Greenskins are currently using AI values for Legendary difficulty across all difficulty levels.
The Dwarfs typically never do well, but they tend to hold on to their last settlements for dear life simply because Dwarf AI armies have ridiculous autoresolve bonuses. When playing campaign as a faction other than the Greenskins or the Dwarfs, you as the player can easily tip the balance of the Badlands in favor of the Dwarfs by knocking down the Greenskins a few times. The minute you do this, the Dwarfs will be able to get a strong enough foothold to begin snowballing out of control, at which point the Greenskins AI stands no chance. I've managed to do this several times across multiple campaigns playing as the Empire, Vampire Counts and Clan Angrund.
The bottomline is that the Greenskins AI does well in spite of the problems with the faction because of AI bonuses. The player is unable to fund 3 full stacks with just Black Crag by turn 20. The Greenskins AI is able to do this.
While I haven’t read you’re post in entirety, I do want to point out that Orcs(and Vampires for that matter) dominate late game as the AI. If you play as any faction that doesn’t immediately interfere with the Greenskins(or vampires for that matter) these 2 factions gain a lot of speed very quickly. They paint the map black and green. I wonder what the AI does that makes it so easy for them but makes it an excercise for the player
In simple terms, the AI more or less cheats. You can't base faction power on what the AI does in this game. Fact is, the Greenskins are pretty bad and need a lot.
Greenskins were recently reworked with SFO. Why don't you play that? Vanilla is terrible in too many ways, I exclusively play SFO personally.
Maybe, bust just maybe, some people don't like all the changes in SFO and prefer to play the vanilla game or with a selected set of mods or mod it themselves? Just because there's a mod, doesn't mean that devs should just ignore it.
Disclaimer: What I say is my opinion and not necessarily stated as fact.
- I would really like a skill like the Skaven one with the slaves (the one reducing the upkeep and buffing MD and CB). I would give one to an Orc Boss (reducing Boyz upkeep and buffing MA and CB) and another one to a gobbo Lord (reducing the upkeep of all the gobbos and giving MD and CB). It would allow cheaper armies and improve the effect of the Green tide. - Gimme more basic units variations. Common goblins with hand weapon and shield, night goblins with spears and shields, orc boyz with spears, black orcs with shields. Might forget some. Those should be super easy to add for CA and would help early and late game for the GS. - Of course, some "new" units (trolls variants, gobling balista, etc.) would be welcome with Gorfang as a FLC (and that fat gobbo lord as a DLC too) !
Team Dawis
Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
CA guys did not cope with nations focused on the number of cheap units.
So I do not play orcs, rats or vampires. here it must be said that only orcs are in such a desperate situation. Because they have only black orcs and a big spider from elite units, while the rest of the units are trash.
Another problem that I have with this game is that in the late game, the army consists only of elite units. I need that the armies include the basic units from which this breed is famous. Empire - free campaigns, swordsmen, whips. Rats - slaves and clan rats Vampires - zombies and skeletons warriors Orcs and goblins - orcs and goblins ...
The problem is the lack of cash limits in the campaign. Where the clashes are usually 20 or 20 units. What is the point in giving an ordinary orc to the army when the opponent has an infantry line composed of Hammerers ??
I use mods to limit elite units. but it does not change the situation of orcs and goblins too much. Their basic units lose the 1-on-1 battle with units of other nations.
I always wanted the WHAAA mechanic to add additional units above state 20. So that the army would have 30 units fighting the army.
Yeah...elite armies are a nightmare. You're right. I don't recall setup rules for WHFB, but in 40K (in my day) you were limited to 3 elites at best. 3 heavies, too. But you could have 6 "troops". This was precisely TO defeat the concept of elite armies. Granted, space marines and eldar... but... they had much higher point costs and lower model counts to make up for it.
Greenskins can field an elite army, but like you said, it's just black orcs, arachnaroks, and maybe some squig hoppers. It's too bulky, slow, and unvaried to actually matter... and easily countered to boot because the elite greenskins aren't that elite.
Greenskins Warbosses are actually FAR less beastly in melee than they SHOULD be. A powerful "leader" cadre was always the 'ard core of a Greenskins force -- because their leaders only GET that way from being super badass combatants.
Also... there's a hard limit of 4 armies per side in a battle reinforcements wise. This needs to GO. Why? Because I've literally been in situations where I have 12 armies in one spot (waaaghs included) and I'm laying siege to an enemy city with 4 armies total. I can beat this. Easily. In one long, steady, grindy ass battle. HOWEVER.... it's 4 on 4, where GREENSKINS troops are seriously disadvantaged due to being NOT elite. Once you lose that battle though, your forces ALL scramble back ridiculously far, instead of maintaining a siege or containing the enemy. So you can't even really regroup and try again... and even if you can, you're still still bottlenecked because you can't use all your stacks, AND if you lose again (and yes, it easily happens when facing multiple all-elite dwarf stacks with a greenskins army) you certainly wont be able to regroup. There is NO "war of attrition" style or "overwhelming numbers" style of play in this game... except potentially with Skaven because they can summon units for days in the right scenario. Getting rid of the hard limit of 4 armies to a side in a battle would help TREMENDOUSLY because then you could just keep calling in reinforcements for days and really let your hordes of **** units shine.
Regarding reinforcements..... why is it random and useless? You need to be able to set which armies reinforce in what order like you could in older games. Seriously. Don't remove old features and go backwards, CA....
I think there is a way to choose your reinforcements I just always forget how to do it and set it
While I haven’t read you’re post in entirety, I do want to point out that Orcs(and Vampires for that matter) dominate late game as the AI. If you play as any faction that doesn’t immediately interfere with the Greenskins(or vampires for that matter) these 2 factions gain a lot of speed very quickly. They paint the map black and green. I wonder what the AI does that makes it so easy for them but makes it an excercise for the player
Which AI map paints has nothing to do with strength of roster. The auto resolve favors certain things, certain factions and the like which has nothing to do when you the player are actually fighting them, or playing them on the actual battle maps.
Or at least map mechanics or more often the safety of that faction. Like the High Elves in fortress Ulthuan which only in a minor handful of games have truly been the end game faction I'm fighting than any other.
Considering the autoresolve is dictated based on how they balance the roster which comes right down to points they use to evaluate auto resolve I think this counts for a lot. Right down to upkeep costs, faction starting wealth, faction mechanics regarding confederation and public order. Many people claim the Vampire counts have become OP since they’ve been updated but people claim the the Orcs are under powered yet both perform largely just as well as each other on the campaign map. I agree Orcs need an update but I think it’s foolish to paint them with 2 different brushes under the same circumstances.
Edit:
I should end that with same results but different circumstances. Vamps got buffed Orcs didn’t but both achieve the same thing on their own.
It's not dictated on the balance, it's dictated based on various points they assign specific units. It's why you could show up with all ranged for awhile and obliterate armies that if you actually fought them in a life battle could then chew you a new one because you don't have a line.
It should at least be obvious when you auto resolve and the only thing that happens is your two catapults blow up while the rest of your army remains intact. That's got nothing to do with how well I fight a battle.
AI unit selection skews this as well. The AI does not build well balanced armies, nor are they all equal on stacking the deck on what wins autoresolve. Some are more prone to favor units that will win autoresolve but if they had to actually fight on the field would get plastered. It's not a good measure.
Also, various AI factions get plenty of artificial bonuses that the player does not get. And can be made worse that the AI gets bonuses against minor factions which leaves some of those races to easily hoover up anybody nearbye because they don't really have much to worry about and by the time they meet someone without that negative they're bigger because they've had the easier time versus factions that have to fight crowded fields.
And yeah, I can win with the orcs, I can win with the Vampire Counts, Bretonnia, Norsca or any of the factions. Just because I know how to, or cheese the AI anytime I wish does not mean a faction is good. That I win with the same degree of ease as some of them, or more importantly fun. The Greenskins are uninspiring because you are force marched into a very select number of units at any tier, and with behaviors that make them at time seem more a grind, and they certainly do not fulfill their fantasy.
But tldr, no, auto resolve from the Total Warhammer series is not a means of measuring how well the player will perform with them versus the AI. Or why the AI specifically is always so successful with certain races.
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1 · Disagree AgreeA rework to the WAAAGH mechanic first and foremost. Replenishment and economy is next. Those three aspects would make the campaign not broken.
But to make the campaign fun, adding missing heroes and lords and mounts would go a long way. And with the precedent set by the VC rework, it isn't unrealistic.
In general I would prefer a nerf to replenishment to all factions, limiting elite units in general and that they make overwhelming with numbers a viable tactic, but now we move into the unrealistic territory.
Anyway, I'm just echoing what's been said a billion times before, but I very much look forward to this rework and hope I'm not let down too much.
Bloodlines for VC was a gimmick, but I didn't find the campaign broken before the rework so it was a good and fun addition. Fixing GS is a much greater endeavour.
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0 · Disagree AgreeBut replenishment really needs fixing, if it is that bad as the OP says. Maybe that would have helped a few months back, when the Dawitide was still a thing. Could have given the Orcs some more punching power.
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0 · Disagree AgreeReplenishment is an odd issue. As others have said - GS and Skaven should have ridiculous replenishment rates whereas other races - HE, DE, Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs, Lizardmen etc. should not. Correcting this involves nerfing their rates of replenishment.
On the GS economy, I agree that it’s an issue and perhaps adding one more tier to the income producing building would be helpful, but I think it should cap there. Raiding/sacking should remain the primary source of income for the GS.
As far as units go, I think we’ll see BOrcs with shields. Stone Trolls would be nice too as well as the BOrc Big Biss hero. And yeah, give the Goblin Shanan Hero the Arachnarok Spider mount. Shouldn’t be hard to do that stuff.
Last thing. @Rolf1989 raised this in his post above. On TT, there were limits to the number of elite units one could field in an army. I’d like to see a version of that rule set adopted. Neither the player nor the AI should be able to field armies of nothing but elite units. It’s not loreful and it’s boring.
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0 · Disagree AgreeIn case the GS will not get some of the stuff they lack for this, they should rework the Idolz line of buildings. Not stopping at T3 but going all the way up to T5 and with changed numbers of course. No 2/3/4 as it is now but rather something like 3/6/9/12/15 province-wide and 2/4/6 for neighbouring provinces, starting at T3 and at T5 a global effect of 2% or something like that.
For the part with heroes, I think that they could already have it. Though they would need to rearrange the current campaign abilities of them. Right now, the Goblin Big Boss goes with untainted and both shamans have public order. Assuming we are getting only one Orc Big Boss I would give one of the two shamans replenishment and the Goblin Big Boss Public Order or Increase Income and the other ability to the Orc Big Boss. (Goblin Big Boss having untainted did never even make the slightest amount of sense to me anyway.)
If for no other reason, than they sould rework the blue line of skills to make room for replenishment. Tie the three "money-makers" up to two, one for the options after field-battle and one for the options after siege-battle and now there is room for a replenishment skill!
They should also simply remove ai-controlled armies altogether and give a huge buff to replenishment instead. (Something like +50%) Well, unless they go for the Five steps the OP wrote regarding Fightiness.
As for units, I would say that at least Stone Trolls could be easily made by making a reskin of either normal Trolls or Ice Trolls. I would also really like to have the Spear Chukka as well.
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/294736/the-final-content-to-finish-dwarfs-of
The final rework for Vampire Counts
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/295376/the-midnight-aristocracy-invites-to-the-final-dance
I have thought about Fishmen
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/302623/i-have-thought-about-fishmen/p1
Proposal for Nippon
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303348/i-have-been-doing-some-thinking-about-nippon
Proposal for Da Vinci themed Tilea
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303762/welcome-to-tilea-gentlemen
Proposal for Ind
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/322058/the-lands-of-ind-are-welcoming-you
Rework + DLC
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/322574/bretonnia-needs-dlc-and-rework-and-i-tried-a-bit
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0 · Disagree AgreeI have big respect for the fact you where even able to finish the GS campaign ! I was never able to do so my self with them.
No offence to any GS fans , but in my eyes they are so tremdously tedious and boring. They lack any effort and willpower that other factions do have going on for them. Why ? I Absolutly don't know. You would think that such a thematic and energetic faction could be made into a GREAT faction to play with.
For this matter I also think the greenskins deserve there overhaul more then ANY other faction on this point. It means something coming from me because I hate the greenskins and I am completely disconnected with there style and nature of there faction. I really look forward for the empire overhaul but I am honest to myself and know GS deserve it first.
They seems so lack luster to me in so many ways, the only good thing CA did in my eyes where Skarsnik and Wurrzag (2 great and fun lords to play with! ) purely because they added some flavour and theme to the GS style. It was kind of fun to play as a goblin only army with Skarnik and try the campaign without the need of orcs , or play an all savage orc army with Wurrzag while he dances around and stands in front of the great savage green tide (love the shaman feeling he beings to the table with his savage orcs with add style and theme in my eyes). But still, i can't find the strenght to finish a campaign with the greenskins.
Beside that, they are so poorly made.
I seriously came to my personal conclusion that they are being left out purely because CA dislikes or even hates them themself. Look at there favourite faction, vampire counts and how much love they receive and still get. (If I am correct, a few years ago I red ca said themself they loved the VC mostly. This was in the days of warhammer 1 and was an answer to a question some fan asked. Could be wrong)
Don't get me wrong, I am NOT complaining, in the contrary, i am lucky because gs is not my style and vampire counts, TK and Lizardman are totally my thing so I am on the good side of factions which receive some real love. But I personally feel very bad for GS fans, they deserve something.
Look at it objectivly, there is no denying that the greenskins are on the bottom of the list of races/factions which are left out the most. Again, this means something coming from someone like me. I hate them but it's obvious. Painfully obvious. That's why they should have there overhaul first. They deserve it more then ANY other race in my eyes.
Please note; I am not attacking any GS fans or CA for the matter. It's just the way I see it.
--~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
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1 · Disagree AgreeWhen I play them I virtually declare war on all I can find and then extort them for peace treaties, which can also be profitable. War and ruination of enemy cities is the way to play them.
Makes me thirst for another legendary orc game, which I might soon as I'm done playing this Lahmia campaign test.
"Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
Kislev - from darkness to light.19/3
My steam workshop - mods.
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0 · Disagree AgreeSo when i switched to vanilla campaign after a while, it was pretty astonishing to encounter a nightmare Noctilus army with 10x Necrofex and 8x Leviathan
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0 · Disagree AgreeMy thought on the Waaagh and bray heard armies is have them operate in the same way except let you control them directly and their raiding only gives half the cash (their leader is skimming off the top for him self) maybe have a character tree point to let you get 100% from their raiding. I would also give them their own fightniess bar so you can't sit with them in defense they must stay active or they will die off or become a rebel army (this is whilst also having them bound to their parent armies bar so if they loose too much or die same as above happens). You could also have a large radius around the parent army that they must stay in or they will begin to loose a lot of fightniess to prevent players from abusing free controllable armies by spawning them then sending them off huge distances to do damage for free and not caring about losing them.
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0 · Disagree AgreeGreenskins can field an elite army, but like you said, it's just black orcs, arachnaroks, and maybe some squig hoppers. It's too bulky, slow, and unvaried to actually matter... and easily countered to boot because the elite greenskins aren't that elite.
Greenskins Warbosses are actually FAR less beastly in melee than they SHOULD be. A powerful "leader" cadre was always the 'ard core of a Greenskins force -- because their leaders only GET that way from being super badass combatants.
Also... there's a hard limit of 4 armies per side in a battle reinforcements wise. This needs to GO. Why? Because I've literally been in situations where I have 12 armies in one spot (waaaghs included) and I'm laying siege to an enemy city with 4 armies total. I can beat this. Easily. In one long, steady, grindy ass battle. HOWEVER.... it's 4 on 4, where GREENSKINS troops are seriously disadvantaged due to being NOT elite. Once you lose that battle though, your forces ALL scramble back ridiculously far, instead of maintaining a siege or containing the enemy. So you can't even really regroup and try again... and even if you can, you're still still bottlenecked because you can't use all your stacks, AND if you lose again (and yes, it easily happens when facing multiple all-elite dwarf stacks with a greenskins army) you certainly wont be able to regroup. There is NO "war of attrition" style or "overwhelming numbers" style of play in this game... except potentially with Skaven because they can summon units for days in the right scenario. Getting rid of the hard limit of 4 armies to a side in a battle would help TREMENDOUSLY because then you could just keep calling in reinforcements for days and really let your hordes of **** units shine.
Regarding reinforcements..... why is it random and useless? You need to be able to set which armies reinforce in what order like you could in older games. Seriously. Don't remove old features and go backwards, CA....
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1 · Disagree Agreethe reason I prefer LOTR over warhammer fantasy and 40k
I am dutch so if you like to have a talk in dutch shoot me a PM
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0 · Disagree AgreeOr at least map mechanics or more often the safety of that faction. Like the High Elves in fortress Ulthuan which only in a minor handful of games have truly been the end game faction I'm fighting than any other.
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0 · Disagree AgreeEdit:
I should end that with same results but different circumstances. Vamps got buffed Orcs didn’t but both achieve the same thing on their own.
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0 · Disagree AgreeYou had to set up your armies before hand (you didnt need generals back then either, you had captains) and then selected which army came in what order. With practice it allowed you to set up a reinforcement however you wanted.
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0 · Disagree AgreeIn addition, I believe it was CeltiK (the creator of the Community Bugfix Mod) who pointed out that the Greenskins are currently using AI values for Legendary difficulty across all difficulty levels.
The Dwarfs typically never do well, but they tend to hold on to their last settlements for dear life simply because Dwarf AI armies have ridiculous autoresolve bonuses. When playing campaign as a faction other than the Greenskins or the Dwarfs, you as the player can easily tip the balance of the Badlands in favor of the Dwarfs by knocking down the Greenskins a few times. The minute you do this, the Dwarfs will be able to get a strong enough foothold to begin snowballing out of control, at which point the Greenskins AI stands no chance. I've managed to do this several times across multiple campaigns playing as the Empire, Vampire Counts and Clan Angrund.
The bottomline is that the Greenskins AI does well in spite of the problems with the faction because of AI bonuses. The player is unable to fund 3 full stacks with just Black Crag by turn 20. The Greenskins AI is able to do this.
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0 · Disagree AgreeSame goes for convincing MPers that campaign mechanics wholly alter the experience from MP.
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0 · Disagree AgreeJust because there's a mod, doesn't mean that devs should just ignore it.
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3 · Disagree AgreeIf I could add something to that :
- I would really like a skill like the Skaven one with the slaves (the one reducing the upkeep and buffing MD and CB). I would give one to an Orc Boss (reducing Boyz upkeep and buffing MA and CB) and another one to a gobbo Lord (reducing the upkeep of all the gobbos and giving MD and CB). It would allow cheaper armies and improve the effect of the Green tide.
- Gimme more basic units variations. Common goblins with hand weapon and shield, night goblins with spears and shields, orc boyz with spears, black orcs with shields. Might forget some. Those should be super easy to add for CA and would help early and late game for the GS.
- Of course, some "new" units (trolls variants, gobling balista, etc.) would be welcome with Gorfang as a FLC (and that fat gobbo lord as a DLC too) !
Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
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0 · Disagree Agree@BoldElf In this game? Never figured it out if there is one.
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0 · Disagree AgreeIt should at least be obvious when you auto resolve and the only thing that happens is your two catapults blow up while the rest of your army remains intact. That's got nothing to do with how well I fight a battle.
AI unit selection skews this as well. The AI does not build well balanced armies, nor are they all equal on stacking the deck on what wins autoresolve. Some are more prone to favor units that will win autoresolve but if they had to actually fight on the field would get plastered. It's not a good measure.
Also, various AI factions get plenty of artificial bonuses that the player does not get. And can be made worse that the AI gets bonuses against minor factions which leaves some of those races to easily hoover up anybody nearbye because they don't really have much to worry about and by the time they meet someone without that negative they're bigger because they've had the easier time versus factions that have to fight crowded fields.
And yeah, I can win with the orcs, I can win with the Vampire Counts, Bretonnia, Norsca or any of the factions. Just because I know how to, or cheese the AI anytime I wish does not mean a faction is good. That I win with the same degree of ease as some of them, or more importantly fun. The Greenskins are uninspiring because you are force marched into a very select number of units at any tier, and with behaviors that make them at time seem more a grind, and they certainly do not fulfill their fantasy.
But tldr, no, auto resolve from the Total Warhammer series is not a means of measuring how well the player will perform with them versus the AI. Or why the AI specifically is always so successful with certain races.
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