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Blind Pick /tabletop ladder format.

InfletoInfleto MemberPosts: 300Registered Users
edited December 2018 in Multiplayer
CA PLEASE! currently Multiplayer can feel dry from time to time. Each race has it's Ideal match ups and a hand full of builds that are optimized against different races.
We suggest a 2nd ladder be added into the game. The 2nd ladder is the same as the 1st but with one change. You can't see what race your opponent is.

Benefit, Exciting new meta game that evolves on its own.
How, Players are encouraged to pick a more diverse army to account for the wide range of possible opponents they may face. As optimized race/builds emerge, new builds/race picks will show up to counter the meta. implementation is rather easy. Copy and past job.

Issues,
It could be an issue that extreme/ cheese builds become harder to account for. Unit selection may need to be restricted slightly more than the normal latter.

Comments

  • InfletoInfleto Member Posts: 300Registered Users
    Turin posted a fun VOD showing a tournament in this format. It looked fun.
    Link
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,362Registered Users
    While I don't much care if it is/isn't implemented as an additional game mode, I think it's simple fact that the TT system would be pure garbage for a game like this one, there's just too much variation between factions in this game when compared to TT, so there's literally 0 way to prepare for even a decent number of lists you face, which means a complete ditching of niche units and most likely balanced lists in general, leading to cheese strats. That's simply unfun imo. I can understand why it's amusing in a one off, for fun tournament, but as a mode to consistently play just seems bad.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • razavivrazaviv Posts: 44Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    While I don't much care if it is/isn't implemented as an additional game mode, I think it's simple fact that the TT system would be pure garbage for a game like this one, there's just too much variation between factions in this game when compared to TT, so there's literally 0 way to prepare for even a decent number of lists you face, which means a complete ditching of niche units and most likely balanced lists in general, leading to cheese strats. That's simply unfun imo. I can understand why it's amusing in a one off, for fun tournament, but as a mode to consistently play just seems bad.

    from what ive seen , it only led to less counter picking and more niche units apearing on the battlefield like giants. amny units in the game are awsome but easily counterd this mod is just a must imo to refresh the multiplayer scne,but only if there is at least an option to see your opponent army before the battle starts,along with a rating decrease on ladder if you quite battls after joining
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,236Registered Users
    the only issue I find really problematic currently is counter-picking. Building according to what your opponent picks (but not counterpicking the faction) imo is fair.

    Creating 2 ladders isn’t feasible with current playerbase I think.
  • InfletoInfleto Member Posts: 300Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    the only issue I find really problematic currently is counter-picking. Building according to what your opponent picks (but not counterpicking the faction) imo is fair.

    Creating 2 ladders isn’t feasible with current playerbase I think.

    Yea, though it is not trying to fix anything. Just create something new.
    and the player base could be fixed with a new format :P
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 1,432Registered Users
    This is a great and funny format in my case. Also whatever eliminates the abysmal counter picking works.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,771Registered Users
    I Think the end effect would be more full mobile/kiting and ranged boxes builds because these are never chanceless, whereas other builds may be an autoloss. Ranged units can kill anything.
  • InfletoInfleto Member Posts: 300Registered Users

    I Think the end effect would be more full mobile/kiting and ranged boxes builds because these are never chanceless, whereas other builds may be an autoloss. Ranged units can kill anything.

    Maybe, maybe not, it is hard to say what the meta would be.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,362Registered Users
    Infleto said:

    I Think the end effect would be more full mobile/kiting and ranged boxes builds because these are never chanceless, whereas other builds may be an autoloss. Ranged units can kill anything.

    Maybe, maybe not, it is hard to say what the meta would be.
    I don't think it is. Right now, while counterpicking sucks, knowing what faction you're up against gives you a solid amount of info as to what you need to prepare for. The number of units and viable combinations just isn't that massive, even for the very diverse factions like empire or dark elves. In comparison, making a list that is decent vs all 15 possible factions is basically impossible. The strategy needed to counter WE is completely different from fighting Dwarves or Chaos, Brettonia requires a completely different approach from Vampire Coast, etc. At that point, bringing a balanced list is literally useless, so what are you left with? Gimmicky builds that will either do awesome or crash and burn, but given that you cant prep for every MU anyway, who cares if you can at least snare wins in a few games.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Posts: 361Registered Users
    I see the problem slightly differently. There are lots of matches that a balanced list can do well against. However, there are a lot of builds that cause major problems for a lot of balanced lists.

    The classic dwarf box is a good example. If you bring a classic, balanced high elf or Brettonian list against the dwarf box you have no chance. Your spearmen and archers lack the AP to kill anything other than slayers, your cav also lacks AP, and your monsters are easy to focus down with cannons, organ guns, and thunderers. The same is true for Brettonia: nothing really trades well into dwarves except foot squires, questing knights, and hippogriff knights. High elves can crush dwarves and Brettonia can at least get a fighting chance but it demands a completely different build than a campaign style balanced all comers build.

    In a tabletop style environment, builds that require a specific counter like the dwarf box have a big advantage. On the empire side, I expect that something like healing steam tank builds might be more prevalent. On the high elf side, I think you'd end up with a lot of shadow warrior+dragon prince builds because that kind of kiting can be hard for a lot of factions to deal with. In short, since you can't really build a balanced army to have the tools to deal with anything any faction can throw at you, you are encouraged to instead bring an unbalanced build that other people might not have the tools to deal with. In short, while counter-picking is a problem in the current meta, in most matchups, the current "build vs faction" mechanic tends to reward relatively balanced builds that have a chance against anything a particular a faction could throw against them. (There are problematic matchups where one faction has very few viable options against the other and these tend to produce more extreme builds. Greenskins against pretty much anyone is a good example of this). I expect a tabletop format would see a lot more all in/hard counter builds.

    As a side note, please call this tabletop format. Blind pick format has been used in tournaments to mean that factions are selected blindly but are visible in the army build screen. Likewise, many people, myself included have suggested that quick battle/ladder format be revised to make you pick your faction before queuing but to be able to see your opponent's faction while building your army. (That would be my preferred improvement to quick battle). Calling tabletop "blind pick" rather than just tabletop or "blind build" or "build before queuing" or something else muddies the waters unnecessarily and hinders clear discussion rather than facilitating it.

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