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Expanding Savage Orcs

Cortes31Cortes31 Registered Users Posts: 2,056
edited December 2018 in General Discussion
May the Whaagh be with you!

One more time it is time to talk about Greenskins. But this time, it is all about Savage Orcs. To be more precise, I want to be able to do a full run with nothing but Savage Orcs and a few other units that would fit that run like, in my opinion, Trolls, Giants and, to a degree, Spider Riders and I created this thread with that goal in mind.


Anyway, straight to topic.
The three most important differences from normal orcs to me are a lack of armor, higher speed and good physical resistance.

What do the Savage Orcs have?
1. One legendary lord and that is Wurzzag, the Great Green Prophet.
2. One line of buildings, ranging from T1 to T3 that can be build everywhere by Wurzzag.
3. Five units in total.

What do the Savage Orcs not have?
1. Another legendary lord
2. Generic lords and heroes
3. All of their possible units and building line going up to T5
4. Unique techs
5. Unique landmark buildings.
6. Unique Mechanic


I will go through every point of the later question separately.

Another Legendary Lord.
At the moment, there is only Wurzzag, a caster with great buffs to savage orcs. However one legendary lord means that you will always start at the same location and every single campaign will be more or less the same for the first 30 rounds until you do stuff like abandoning your starting position from the get go and go somewhere else. This gets tiresome! No matter how much fun the campaign is doing the same stuff gets boring.
Now the problem here is a clear lack of named characters. Besides Wurzzag himself I know only of one other savage orc, Warboss of the Blue Vipers, and this one got killed by Tiktak'to without even having a name. So, unless there is another possible candidate mentioned somewhere else entirely, there might be only two option: Number one, there will only be Wurzzag forever as sole legendary lord or number two, CA does another Direfin and creates a legendary lord from scratch. And that is something I would be totally fine with.


Generic lords and heroes
Savage Orcs have neither of it but they could have both. Right now this lack of generic lords and heroes is the biggest problem for an all out savage-run. It does simply not work wit an Orc Warboss and even less with Goblins of course. An ideal outcome of this would be a Savage Orc Warboss, Savage Orc Great Shaman, Savage Orc Big Boss and Savage Orc Shaman. And as much as I would like to have all them, I simply do not see this happening.
As the most likeliest outcome I consider the addition of only the Savage Orc Great Shaman, since Greenskins in general lack a generic orc caster lord. Catching two birds with one stone, so to speak and the basic goal, playing savage-only would still work.
However, my preferred outcome of this would be the addition of not only the Warboss but also the Big Boss. I would give both a boar as a mount and the Warboss a Wyvern afterwards. As far as weapons go, I think I would go, and I find many options likable in that case, with a Greatweapon for the Warboss and Dual Weapons for the Big Boss. And of course stats and skills to fit with Savage Orcs.
As far as the Savage Orc Shaman is concerned, I have to say that he would be a nice addition but not one I would miss.

However, should we indeed get Savage Orc Great Shaman and Savage Orc Warboss, than I would give each of them one or two unique skills like Warpaint for Giants to the Shaman or reduced recruitment turn times for Biguns to the Warboss.


All of their possible units and building line going up to T5.
As of now, there are only 5 units in total, all bound together in one building line, the Savage Orc Camp, which goes from T1 to T3. Wurzzag can build it everywhere and it is fine and all but it does not really fit with my personal goal for this thread. It is not enough, I would say and should be changed.

First, as it is now:
T1: Savage Orcs

T2: Savage Orc Arrer Boyz

T3: Savage Orc Biguns, Savage Orc Boar Boyz, Savage Orc Boar Boyz Biguns

And that is it. With T3 you can recruit the last three units. Ending it at T3 has certainly the advantage of being able to be build everywhere but this makes it also kind of pointless to be build in provincial capitals where it clearly lacks T4 and T5. Furthermore, right now, it allows only recruitment but has no other effects like increased recruitment ranks or reduced recruitment cost.


No to all the units I would like to see:
Savage Orcs with Shields and Savage Orc Boar Boyz with Shield because there will be a lot of ranged firepower on the way and I don't want every unit with either magical arrows or armor piercing bullets to have a field day shooting at my precious boyz. I don't want shields on every unit, because that would distract the playstyle too much but at least one or two units with shield should be done. Could be either locked behind tech or simply giving a missile resistance that is equal to having a small(bronze) shield in which case a entirely separate unit would be not needed of course.

Savage Orc Spear Boyz and Big Stabbas because the entire faction, not just the savage ones, lack spears! Something I do not get why anymore and I truly hope will be fixed with their rework. Savage Orc Spear Boyz would simply be Savage Orcs carrying one spear around. Big Stabbas are two Savage Orcs with one big spear and are the most known missing unit I think. To not overlap in their functionality, I would differ their goals: Spear Boyz for cavalry like Knights of the Realm, Cold One Riders, Imperial Knights and Big Stabbas, numbered like monstrous infantry, for the big guys like Dragons, Giants, Hellpit Abominations and so on.

Savage Orc Morboyz because they are part of Age of Sigmar.
Okay, no, because every time I hear the word “Morboyz” I think about Savage Orc Biguns with Greatweapons and magic damage and I really, really like that idea. Maybe that is just me, though and I am not sure if CA could even use stuff of AoS.

Feral Wyvern is something I personally really like but I can also see the problems of others who are not wanting it. That said I would think this would fit Savage Orcs more then normal ones. Besides, there is this cute little Wyvern always flying over Ekrund. That has to be put to use somehow.

Rogue Idol of Gork and Mork because it just fits so well with Wurzzag being the “Great Green Prophet” and the model itself looks very fitting for an army of Savage Orcs I say. A slower, more defensive and less offensive version of a giant with a buffing aura is a way I could see them.


Second, as I would like to see it changed including new units and other effects:
T1: Savage Orcs, Savage Orcs with Shield

T2: Savage Orc Arrer Boyz, Savage Orc Spear Boyz

T3: Savage Orc Biguns, Savage Orc Boar Boyz, Savage Orc Boar Boyz with Shield, Savage Orc Big Boss / +1 recruitment capacity province-wide, +1 experience for recruits of Savage Orc Camp building line T1 and T2

T4: Savage Orc Boar Boyz Biguns, Big Stabbas, Savage Orc Morboyz / +2 recruitment capacity province-wide, +2 experience for recruits of Savage Orc Camp building line T1 and T2, +1 experience for recruits of Savage Orc Camp building line T3, +1 recruitment capacity for Big Boss

T5: Feral Wyvern, Rogue Idol of Gork and Mork / +3 recruitment capacity province-wide, +3 experience for recruits of Savage Orc Camp building line T1 and T2, +2 experience for recruits of Savage Orc Camp building line T3, +1 experience for recruits of Savage Orc Camp building line T4, +2 recruitment capacity for Big Boss, 2 Savage Orc Morboyz as Garrison.

As you can see, the additional effects are mostly about recruitment capacity and bonus experience since the Savage Orc Camp will be the main building line of the recruitment department. I was also thinking about a recruitment cost reduction but Wurzzag does this already very good and more seemed too much for me. Was also thinking about including a replenishment bonus


Unique techs
Savage Orcs are, at least with the coast_beta, affected by the tech tree. No idea on how long has this been the case because it has been a very long time since I played with them but I clearly remember a time when this was not the case.
Anyway, very thankful for that, as this renders the tech tree not entirely pointless for them. However, only a few techs there are of actual use. More clearly, only the ones like “for all bow units” or “for all orc units”. And there are a lot of techs on the way who are simply useless for the savage boyz like every tech concerning chariots or artillery.
For that reason I would like to see a few techs only useful for Savage Orcs. A small group standing on its own and within that group every tech standing on its own as well. No need for a building to unlock but having insane high research times, like 15 or 20 turns per research, instead.

For the tech themselves, I have come up with following(and the names are just for the sake of naming):
Better Painting: Bonus on physical resistance of Warpaint and adding a small amount of magical resistance.
Shield: As already mentioned above, this could either unlock Savage Orcs with Shield and Savage Orc Boar Boyz with Shield or give both units a missile resistance. Not sure what I prefer.
Warchant: Bonus on Leadership for Savage Orcs.
Berserking Frenzy: Bonus on speed as long as frenzy is active.

Four is not much, I agree but Savage Orcs should not have much tech anyway and they can use the normal tech tree as well.


Unique landmark buildings
GS lack landmark buildings who are only for them, not counting a GS-version of landmarks usable be other factions as well. Even then, the Crooked Moon Tribe has one in Karak Eight Peaks but the Bloody Handz has none and this is terrible. They should also have at least one landmark building and I would really like to see it at Erkund, since this is Wurzzag starting position. I have tried to come up with something based on this fact and what I could find about Ekrund in general:

Dragonback Mines: Additional income and bonus on income from settlements province-wide.
For GS and Dwarfs and based on what I could find about Erkund in general. Or just give it a normal mine with gold or gemstones instead.
Wurzzags Home: Bonus on starting winds of magic for all armies faction-wide, bonus on experience for recruited shaman lord and heroes province-wide, bonus on public order province-wide and bonus for replenishment province-wide. Decreased starting winds of magic for enemy-armies faction-wide, malus on leadership for enemy-armies province-wide.
For Bloody Handz only.


Unique mechanic
Yes, this is something I would like to see for Savage Orcs as well. However, I mean it in a way for something that normal GS do not have. This could be a confederation mechanic like Norsca has it but this fits well with GS too and might come with their rework. I could also see a hybrid like Vampire Coast working.
But, looking at Wurzzag titled as the Great Green Prophet, I prefer another mechanic of Norsca and that would be Allegiance to the Gods. It would only work in a more simpler way, since there is only Gork and Mork and not four different gods. You could still build shrines in favor of Gork and Mork but there would be five levels instead of three. As for the effects themselves, it would only have one or two at first level and with only a small effect but increasing with every new level and also adding more effects to the already existing ones with every new level. Could work like this:
L1: Leadership and replenishment
L2: Campaign movement range and Weapon Strength
L3: Experience per turn
L4: Recruitment and upkeep cost reduction
L5: Fightiness



For my last words, I really hope that at least something of all that will make it in one way or another. Preferable with the rework of GS but I would not mind paying for a DLC for all of it.

Comments

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,658
    edited December 2018
    Yeh, we need some savage bois in ME quick.

    Edit: in Vortex too since there are 3 Savage Orc factions there atm.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 6,499
    Savage Orcs should not be a seperate faction of their own.. So them getting a tech tree of their own is a no-go. There aren't really any other LLs for them to get, to my knowledge anyway..

    Sure, you could add a bit more variation between the different units of Savage orcs we got, but that is about it. Essentially the Savage Orcs are just another Greenskin faction.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,658
    edited December 2018

    Savage Orcs should not be a seperate faction of their own.. So them getting a tech tree of their own is a no-go. There aren't really any other LLs for them to get, to my knowledge anyway..

    Sure, you could add a bit more variation between the different units of Savage orcs we got, but that is about it. Essentially the Savage Orcs are just another Greenskin faction.

    Same as Norsca was never separate from WoC on TT I consider it possible for Savage Orcs to have distinction made in this game.

    Probably not but not unwelcome if you ask me.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 3,415
    The problem with the Greenskin roster is that if every flavor is catered to, you'll get a huge amount of redundancies, which the roster already suffers from.

    Splitting them up in sub-roster based on LLs, which already exists to some point, but not entirely, could be a cure for that, though it does mean that if you want to play a certain flavor of greenskin, you'll always get the same start-pos.
  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 4,965
    The one thing the Greenskins ABSOLUTELY need is the Savage Orc Great Shaman. Two birds one stone: a savage orc lord that buffs savage orcs, and a caster lord with the lore of the "Big Waaagh!". Essentially a mini-Wurzzag.
  • SagrandaSagranda Registered Users Posts: 1,659
    Cortes31 said:


    4. Unique techs

    To my knowledge, they have no tech at all that does affect them.


    So at least something in that regard would be nice.
    Disclaimer: What I say is my opinion and not necessarily stated as fact.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 5,226
    edited December 2018
    Savage Orc Great Shaman is what the campaign needs. You can take the existing savage orc units into end game with support from trolls and giants.

    A savage orc big boss would be nice too.
  • LibertyLivesLibertyLives Registered Users Posts: 45
    I think that a generic savage orc lord would be nice, perhaps a caster lord or great weapon wielding melee lord, so that it is possible to have a savage orc only play through, as well as having more appropriate leaders for savage orc factions, however I think anything else is a bit entitled. If you want access to a version of everything in the Greenskins roster then just play straight Greenskins, the whole point of a thematic playthrough is that you are limited in the types of unit you can bring, which creates a unique challenge.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 5,226
    I do think it would be reasonable to introduce a savage orc hero & savage orc lord option that are unique to the bloody handz. Averlorn and Nagarythe received unique units when Queen and the Crone was released.
  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,721
    The orcs and goblins army consists off:

    - "Normal orcs"
    - Black orcs
    - Savage Orcs
    - "Normal" Goblins
    - Night Goblins
    - Forest Goblins

    I rather think that another Goblin LL is needed, particular one that isnt Night Goblin.

    The best choice for that and in fact the best type of lord that the greenskins lack is.....

    1. Regeneration
    2. Mount focussed

    That role is filled with Grom the Paunch, who is Chariot focussed, a unique goblin and that has regeneration thanks to his little trollmeat accident.

    Furthermore, he could start either in the new or the old world.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 5,226
    Just an idea I had to introduce faction specific lords and heroes for orcs & goblins.

    Greenskins Lords & Heroes

    Black Orc Warboss (Replaces Orc Warboss)
    Orc Great Shaman
    Goblin Warboss (Replaces Night Goblin Warboss)
    Goblin Great Shaman
    Black Orc Big Boss (Replaces Orc Big Boss)
    Orc Shaman
    Goblin Shaman (Replaces Night Goblin Shaman)
    Goblin Big Boss

    Crooked Moon Lords & Heroes

    Orc Warboss
    Night Goblin Warboss
    Night Goblin Great Shaman (Replaces Goblin Great Shaman)
    Orc Great Shaman
    Orc Big Boss
    Orc Shaman
    Night Goblin Big Boss (Replaces Goblin Big Boss)
    Night Goblin Great Shaman

    Bloody Handz Lords & Heroes

    Savage Orc Warboss (Replaces Orc Warboss)
    Savage Orc Great Shaman
    Goblin Warboss (Replaces Night Goblin Warboss)
    Goblin Great Shaman
    Savage Orc Big Boss
    Savage Orc Shaman (Replaces Orc Shaman)
    Goblin Big Boss
    Goblin Shaman

  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,366
    Savage ror please
  • blaatblaat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,150
    Sagranda said:

    Cortes31 said:


    4. Unique techs

    To my knowledge, they have no tech at all that does affect them.


    So at least something in that regard would be nice.
    that got fixed in the lasted patch

    snip

    It's much easier and more fun to get engrossed in lore that takes itself seriously and tries to make sense within its own frame of reference.

    the reason I prefer LOTR over warhammer fantasy and 40k

    I am dutch so if you like to have a talk in dutch shoot me a PM :)
  • SagrandaSagranda Registered Users Posts: 1,659
    blaat said:

    Sagranda said:

    Cortes31 said:


    4. Unique techs

    To my knowledge, they have no tech at all that does affect them.


    So at least something in that regard would be nice.
    that got fixed in the lasted patch
    Either I really need to keep better track of what's fixed or not or I have to make you my personal intelligence worker.
    It slowly gets embarrassing with all the stuff I miss...

    Thanks nonetheless.
    Disclaimer: What I say is my opinion and not necessarily stated as fact.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 31,193
    Great thread.

    The Orcs more than any other race could quite easily be split up into separate rosters, but that'd be lame. They're much better as an undivided group

    Theme armies are one of the best things about this game, before all is said and done the Orcs should definitely have all their options covered.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

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  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 6,732
    I'd drop the 10ish bucks for a Savage Orc/Forrest Goblin Race pack.

    2 New LL and an Expanded Savage Orc Roster.
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 5,116
    Because of the great deal of subcultures that they have (this is also true for Chaos Warriors to an extent), the greenskins should arguably have the most diverse roster in the game, even if some redundancies orc-ur. ;) We've got regular orcs, black orcs, savage orcs, hill gobbos, night gobbos and forest gobbos; and there is an obvious pattern occurring across both orcs and goblins here of the average, the elite and the primitive/feral types, so I don't think we should look at savage orcs and the forest goblins as isolates from one another but rather as complimentary. For that reason I think a good lord to add in would be Snagla Grobspit, focusing mostly on the forest gobbos and their spiders; toss in a generic Forest Goblin Warboss armed with a bow and you've got a unique new lord choice for the Greenskins. In addition I agree with everyone else regarding getting a generic Savage Orc Warboss and Orc Great Shaman, but I'd rather they be separate as I feel that a savage orc great shaman whilst killing two birds with one stone, is far to similar to Wurrzag.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed, Shadow King
    Me when I see a LL character implemented as a LH.

    Bring naval battles to Warhammer CA!

  • tanspan88tanspan88 Registered Users Posts: 201
    Considering how central greenskins are to the warhammer world, and how they are almost everywhere, i think they could squeeze in 5 LLs. 6 would really be pushing it. Lets be honest, its not gonna be a made up savage orc LL when we’ve got Grom, Gorfang Rotgut, and even that little known forest goblin mentioned above. So the debate is who will be added?

    The gaps in the roster kind of point towards the savage orcs/forest goblins, so would be weird to make a lord pack for Grom/Gorfang and add these units.

    As unlikely as this is, id like to see that forest gobbo as a LP, fleshing out the savage orc and forest goblin units. Gorfang as a unique lord like Alistair the White Lion, and maaaaaybe Grom as a rogue horde army/event.

    Defo themed armies add so much replayability, so really hope each subtype does have enough to make a solid army based on them.
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    edited January 2019
    Savage orks just need their lord to buff them like Wurzag (not caster lord).

    Best solution let gorfang hold his Black crag, and moved azag and grimgor at north.
    But it create other problem, Kislev still empire like faction, so at first we need Kislev.
  • blaatblaat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,150
    Sagranda said:

    blaat said:

    Sagranda said:

    Cortes31 said:


    4. Unique techs

    To my knowledge, they have no tech at all that does affect them.


    So at least something in that regard would be nice.
    that got fixed in the lasted patch
    Either I really need to keep better track of what's fixed or not or I have to make you my personal intelligence worker.
    It slowly gets embarrassing with all the stuff I miss...

    Thanks nonetheless.
    LOL I will gladly do that if you pay me with each new DLC CA releases :p

    but in al seriousness I am happy to help

    snip

    It's much easier and more fun to get engrossed in lore that takes itself seriously and tries to make sense within its own frame of reference.

    the reason I prefer LOTR over warhammer fantasy and 40k

    I am dutch so if you like to have a talk in dutch shoot me a PM :)
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 5,273
    OdTengri said:

    I'd drop the 10ish bucks for a Savage Orc/Forrest Goblin Race pack.

    2 New LL and an Expanded Savage Orc Roster.

    Yes we need a SAVAGE DLC.

    ...meanwhile greenskins can't even get their basic rework/update.
  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,232
    still waiting for nightgoblin boss and nightgoblins with spears/prodders to feel complete.
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    edited January 2019

    still waiting for nightgoblin boss and nightgoblins with spears/prodders to feel complete.

    But what nightgoblin had instead simple goblin, only squig mount. Why just not add to basic goblin squig mount. And goblin hero become viable.

    Why goblin lord strong? Aoe shield on 20 sec 48% is strong. Giant cave squig had 55 armor, pretty ok number, AP attack and cherry pop is 40 bonus vs infantry. And ofc whole army poison.
    What i need it black ork hero foot only.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,209
    This is like the best thought bad proposal I have seen.


    The greenskin roster is already bloated. And that is mainly because the addition of savage orc units. It's the "faction not race" that has received more love in the game. Averlorn and Arkhan got 3 already existing units. Nagarythe got 1 unique unit. Savage orcs have five. And people still complain and claim for more. Meanwhile, factions like BM are missing half their roster and others like WEs, which have like half the units than orcs, only have 2 LLs.

    Is one thing to add a couple unique units to some factions. it is a completely different thing to pretend that CA has to create a whole race (including a second LL, technologies, unique mechanics, lords, heros...) for a faction (not a race) that is supposed to be limited BY DESIGN.

  • DarkLordDDarkLordD Registered Users Posts: 2,575
    edited January 2019
    I would love the idea of a more savage orc style added to the Greenskins.

    I never have liked greenskins very much, they are on the bottom of my list (not there fault, but mine, just not my style) but the savage orc in combination with a shaman leading them is very appealing to me (adds depth into my roleplay plays, thats the reason I do really love Wurrzag. Its a great lord thats fun to play with, and actually very strong !!)

    So yes ! MORE SAVAGENESS !! Great thread my friend :)
    Dark Lord D the Fearsome (I) ~~~ First Dark Lord of the Old World.

    --~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,209
    This forum definitely needs to learn the concept: "cost of opportunity".


    We are getting content once every 5 months, and you seriously want that content to be more basic infantry reskins?
  • DarkLordDDarkLordD Registered Users Posts: 2,575
    edited January 2019
    Pocman said:

    This forum definitely needs to learn the concept: "cost of opportunity".


    We are getting content once every 5 months, and you seriously want that content to be more basic infantry reskins?

    That's very true what you say. I think we should just see it more as ideas and that's it. Dreams , fantasies that might one day all be added in due time, even if it takes years.

    But you are right my friend. Priorities first with the most actual play value first. (What ever that is and what we customers want of course)
    Dark Lord D the Fearsome (I) ~~~ First Dark Lord of the Old World.

    --~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
  • Cortes31Cortes31 Registered Users Posts: 2,056
    Pocman said:



    We are getting content once every 5 months, and you seriously want that content to be more basic infantry reskins?

    I rather get a couple basic infantry reskins instead of one or two truly unique units if the first option offers more variety for my campaigns as a whole then the second one.
    Especially true for Savage Orcs who play or would play different from the normal ones.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,258
    I guess a cool way to introduce stuff like savage orc lords and heroes would be giving the existing choices variants in the way the zombie pirates got their weapons (halberd or sword). So when recruiting a goblin big boss there can be normal, forest or night types in the recruitment pool. Apart from stat tweaks (tackling more the how than the what of their role) these could change the mount options and now-yellow skill trees (simply switching the units affected by buffs). Thus everyone would get their themed generic characters.
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