Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

What are the lower tier races and what changes do they need?

InfletoInfleto MemberPosts: 290Registered Users
What are the lower tier races and what changes do they need?

Comments

  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 430Registered Users
    Actually the top should be brought down. You can see that they temporarily buffed bretonnia and already had to nerf. With the dwarfs they gave them 20 mass and reverted it presumably because it made their good match ups too good for them.

    When factions get buffed it causes problems, the ones causing the opinion that those needed buffs need to get nerfed.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,542Registered Users
    Lizardmen and Skaven have some tough matchups and really need their full rosters with dlc.

  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Posts: 1,645Registered Users
    The lowest rated factions are usually the least flexible ones.

    So factions like Dwarfs, Lizardmen, pre-RoR/Metal rework Chaos, Skaven, and pre-FLC Bretonnia.

    The more one-dimensional a faction is, the easier it is to build against, and vice/versa for the rosters that have multiple paths they can pursue.

    As far as what changes do they need...it's honestly hard to say because CA hasn't handled changes well in the past, and some changes are difficult to implement without changing the way the game works/changing the identity of the race.

    Skaven for example, have leadership that is too low, but that's sort of their point. They are supposed to make up for it with overwhelming numbers, but the game definitely has a diminishing returns on the usefulness of 'even moar Skavenslaves'. And any fix to that, the morale, or the numbers, and the race wouldn't feel like 'Skaven' anymore, as the single player fans have already critiqued regarding Skaven and 'Supply Lines'/the Kemmler rework.

    Other changes have less to do with racial identity and more to do with balance team competence.

    Dwarfs too vulnerable to high mass cycle charging for example: just give them OP Tormentor Sword, then take it away?

    Lizardmen's Rampage 'solution'.

    Chaos just INSANELY buffing the Lore of Metal/Final Transmutation.

    etc. etc.

    Even outside of races...just builds in general, from Magic Missiles, to Devolve, to the most recent Blood Dragon/Helm of Discord....CA tends to struggle to find the balance between tuning something overly sharp and just nerfing it into the dirt/making it obsolete.

    So whatever changes the current weak factions need (Skaven for sure, to a lesser extent Lizardmen and Dwarfs), I'm sure CA will not handle those changes in a way that will achieve satisfactory balance.

    *Yes, I know some are holding out hope that upcoming Lord Pack will just fix everything, but tbh, most of the units that are likely coming are ones that will satisfy army book completionists rather than change the dynamic of entire match ups the way the Sisters of Averlorn or Mortis Engine did. I just don't see Jezzails or Ripperdactyls fundamentally changing anything.

    TL;DR: What are the weak factions? The inflexible ones. What do they need? An inherently better balance team.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,465Registered Users
    i say VP and VC need tonning down while, skaven lzm need ROR, i dont feel skaven or LZM are bad at all just they got gaps in their roster in same way that HE's did before the DLC.
  • RiccardoCorradiniRiccardoCorradini Posts: 657Registered Users
    The good MU and bad MU correlation should be considered too. SK/LM need their DLC yes but some faction are 'hidden low tier':while they are fairly balanced,they have way more bad MU than good MU,and this puts those faction in the lower tier too,even if they are not weak as a whole. I mean,we should consider the faction as a whole AND by his MU to have a clear sight.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,465Registered Users

    The good MU and bad MU correlation should be considered too. SK/LM need their DLC yes but some faction are 'hidden low tier':while they are fairly balanced,they have way more bad MU than good MU,and this puts those faction in the lower tier too,even if they are not weak as a whole. I mean,we should consider the faction as a whole AND by his MU to have a clear sight.

    Yes totally agree with this statement, though i do think main reason is due to VC and VP being OP also, if they get tonned down skaven might look better overall.
  • RiccardoCorradiniRiccardoCorradini Posts: 657Registered Users
    Exactly. Rather than buff BM,SK,GS or other faction that are not prone to VC to insanity (nothing would probably ever be enough aniway) it could be more simple to nerf the desease in the first place.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 3,011Registered Users
    Skaven mainly need RoR and their new units to be brought back up.

    Lizardmen in the same boat as Skaven

    Greenskins have had issues for a while. They need (in my opinion) better anti-large infantry and less units that do *the same exact thing.* Their cavalry choices seem like a lot, but then you realize most of them do about the same thing. Boar Boyz, Boar Boy Biggunz and Squig hoppers for example, serve almost the same role at the end of the day, and don't perform all that much better for their costs. Same for their chariots. Same for their skirmish cav. I think they need to rework the cost OR stats of almost all of their cavalry. Even some of their infantry are like that as well. (Savage orcs vs. Normal Orcs.)

  • ExarchExarch Posts: 562Registered Users
    Zergles said:

    Skaven mainly need RoR and their new units to be brought back up.

    Lizardmen in the same boat as Skaven

    Greenskins have had issues for a while. They need (in my opinion) better anti-large infantry and less units that do *the same exact thing.* Their cavalry choices seem like a lot, but then you realize most of them do about the same thing. Boar Boyz, Boar Boy Biggunz and Squig hoppers for example, serve almost the same role at the end of the day, and don't perform all that much better for their costs. Same for their chariots. Same for their skirmish cav. I think they need to rework the cost OR stats of almost all of their cavalry. Even some of their infantry are like that as well. (Savage orcs vs. Normal Orcs.)

    Gobbo bolt throwers would be something. They would help against cav and large SE's at least.

    I kind of like how the GS infantry are generally different tiers of 'brawlers' unlike the more specialised units of other factions, and waagh make them pretty effective. They do have roster bloat with the savage variants, but that's more a single player/TT thing rather than a deliberate multiplayer design.

    The other main problem for GS is lord sniping and terror, as well as limited utility from the lord choices other than Wurzag (and I guess the night goblin boss, but he is very squishy).
  • DracoknightDracoknight Posts: 281Registered Users
    Blizzard is known for the kind of balancing called "Pendulum Balancing" where you go back and forth until you find a reasonable middleground, possible that CAs balance team might have taken some steps from that line of thinking.

    Forexample look at the dwarves you had a ability that totally stopped enemies in their tracks, then they worked around with cooldown timers on it, and then decided slows were a better solution. The negatives of such balancing is that you need a lot of data over several phases before you find something that is acceptable.

    However in the current picture of the game i agree with the sentiment that you only should bring the top down to bare as the current balance is basically Tier 1 and tier 2 with some differences in the top and lower tier 2 factions, but the current lowest ones is the one that lack their content DLCs and its hard to tell what infulence that content might have on those factions.
  • VistahmVistahm Posts: 203Registered Users
    Skaven and beastmen are the worse by far.

    All the others are pretty viable right now, though VC are probably overperforming.

    Beastmen need a serious revamp. I hope they are the next warhammer 1 race to get new toys, abilities or mechanics.

    Skavens basically need their complete roster.

    So thats pretty much it.


  • Gilgamesh1Gilgamesh1 Posts: 584Registered Users
    Vistahm said:

    Skaven and beastmen are the worse by far.

    All the others are pretty viable right now, though VC are probably overperforming.

    Beastmen need a serious revamp. I hope they are the next warhammer 1 race to get new toys, abilities or mechanics.

    Skavens basically need their complete roster.

    So thats pretty much it.


    hopefully a revamps for BM will arrive with Game 3,but i'm not so sold...
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 717Registered Users
    Vistahm said:

    Skaven and beastmen are the worse by far.

    All the others are pretty viable right now, though VC are probably overperforming.

    Beastmen need a serious revamp. I hope they are the next warhammer 1 race to get new toys, abilities or mechanics.

    Skavens basically need their complete roster.

    So thats pretty much it.


    I would like new stuff for the Beastmen and a revamp too, but no way are they on the same level as Skaven atm.

    Beastmen have 2 impossible match ups (counts and coast), but all the others are very competitive except for dwarfs which is heavily Beastmen favoured.
  • another505another505 Posts: 675Registered Users
    Both bret and dwfs which i love to play need their lord and heroes buffed massively
    More so for the dwfs since it literally has one good pick which is just sad
    Thane might be workable now, master engineer could be an anti large sniper so it can help against chariots
    The items on the lords are just toooo expensive and have so much threshold is not worth it

    Bret needs heroes to duke out monsters better, its in their blood dang it!!
    Green knight is heading the right direction but still cost a lot for its stats. Really need perfect vigor

    Alberic needs to figure out his career path

    Paladin, i wish bret gets another variant. One for buffs one for combat. The current paladin is okay but not helpful for the roster. I basically take them only foe seeker on horse
  • InfletoInfleto Member Posts: 290Registered Users
    Vampire cost needs help. most of their units are under stated. Deck droppers with hand guns are never used and need major buffs.

    Also no one is using the necro colossus. They don't have enough range or movement speed to all ways out run other lords.

    Depthguard also should be AP.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file