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Vindictive glare far too cost effective?

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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,626Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    yst said:

    The stronger the better lol, the replies i see here, looks like ppl got upset because they cant dodge abuse it like they did to arrows.

    If they wanna tweak the spell, simply reduce dmg to non armor and increase ap on it. Likely not the intention of the spell that way, its mean to rekt low armors

    yea you're right, better abuse a spell that auto wins a game before it even starts by sniping the enemy magic/general, doesn't sound abusive at all :)
    If you put your general on a highly visible mount thinking you'd be untouchable then this is well-deserved.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,699Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
    I think you mean 900 gold?

    I’m ok with less damage more AP.

    But how undodgeable is this? Perfect tracking?
    150 gold base cost + 78 gold for the spell x2 = 228x2 = 456 gold. A bargain for a stalked and vanguarded gen sniper crew. What is the counter-play? Don't go within 200 meters of anywhere where the opponent can vanguard deploy without scouting?

    Main problem is that's it's so cheap and that you can bring two. If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,699Registered Users
    Hey, it's actually 250 meters! :smiley:
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users

    What is the counter-play?

    Do not rely too much on unarmored Lord in the air or bring Dragon mount, so you can have enough hp/armor to tank it. Those Gazes do not have flying caster unlike fireball, so it is quite bad vs ground Lords plus you can use terrain/other troops as screen.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,699Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    What is the counter-play?

    Do not rely too much on unarmored Lord in the air or bring Dragon mount, so you can have enough hp/armor to tank it. Those Gazes do not have flying caster unlike fireball, so it is quite bad vs ground Lords plus you can use terrain/other troops as screen.
    So the counter to the old double star dragon tempest + breath for 4800 gold + a mage with tempest should have been don't bring a flying lord.... damn, had we known they didn't need to nerf the breaths!

    Seriously though, these glares are kind of silly, should not have passed QC. Nobody can seriously mean that anything in this game you can buy for 456 gold and vanguard deploy with stalk should be able to instagib the enemy general from 250 meters (outside stalk spotting range). No general what so ever if you ask me, if you so put Teclis naked with a stick up his arse covered in honey. Unsee that one if you can! :smile:
  • ystyst Posts: 6,060Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    yea you're right, better abuse a spell that auto wins a game before it even starts by sniping the enemy magic/general, doesn't sound abusive at all :)

    Yep pretty much that, net waywatch delete, net avalorn delete, arcane unforge spam vs ork lords etc. just those basic cheesy stuffs they do
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  • ystyst Posts: 6,060Registered Users

    If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.

    Ah i see whats the problem now, they frikking dmg elf, no wonder

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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,699Registered Users
    yst said:

    If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.

    Ah i see whats the problem now, they frikking dmg elf, no wonder

    Ah, you're back. You did a few reasonable posts lately, started to get me worried.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,164Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    yst said:

    The stronger the better lol, the replies i see here, looks like ppl got upset because they cant dodge abuse it like they did to arrows.

    If they wanna tweak the spell, simply reduce dmg to non armor and increase ap on it. Likely not the intention of the spell that way, its mean to rekt low armors

    yea you're right, better abuse a spell that auto wins a game before it even starts by sniping the enemy magic/general, doesn't sound abusive at all :)
    If you put your general on a highly visible mount thinking you'd be untouchable then this is well-deserved.
    yeah except it 2-3 shots mages on foot/horse too and you can do it from stalk.
    yst said:

    Green0 said:

    yea you're right, better abuse a spell that auto wins a game before it even starts by sniping the enemy magic/general, doesn't sound abusive at all :)

    Yep pretty much that, net waywatch delete, net avalorn delete, arcane unforge spam vs ork lords etc. just those basic cheesy stuffs they do
    totally comparable, one has 2x Sisters and have to cast a 100m range spell that you can check at the start of the battle, most factions that are vulnerable to Sisters/WW have specific tools to counter like Harpies or Poison Hounds or Centigors. The other snipes you from unspottable and the only counterplay really is terrain, not even sure you can dodge it.

    Not to mention the ridiculously low mana cost.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,626Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    yst said:

    The stronger the better lol, the replies i see here, looks like ppl got upset because they cant dodge abuse it like they did to arrows.

    If they wanna tweak the spell, simply reduce dmg to non armor and increase ap on it. Likely not the intention of the spell that way, its mean to rekt low armors

    yea you're right, better abuse a spell that auto wins a game before it even starts by sniping the enemy magic/general, doesn't sound abusive at all :)
    If you put your general on a highly visible mount thinking you'd be untouchable then this is well-deserved.
    yeah except it 2-3 shots mages on foot/horse too and you can do it from stalk.
    yst said:

    Green0 said:

    yea you're right, better abuse a spell that auto wins a game before it even starts by sniping the enemy magic/general, doesn't sound abusive at all :)

    Yep pretty much that, net waywatch delete, net avalorn delete, arcane unforge spam vs ork lords etc. just those basic cheesy stuffs they do
    totally comparable, one has 2x Sisters and have to cast a 100m range spell that you can check at the start of the battle, most factions that are vulnerable to Sisters/WW have specific tools to counter like Harpies or Poison Hounds or Centigors. The other snipes you from unspottable and the only counterplay really is terrain, not even sure you can dodge it.

    Not to mention the ridiculously low mana cost.
    Don't see anything wrong with that. Got punished for painting a giant target marker on your squishy mage. That's good and there needs to be more of that stuff. No more stupid wizard cast and runs.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,164Registered Users
    oh the irony
  • ystyst Posts: 6,060Registered Users
    edited January 7
    Its only ok to abuse allariel on eagle flying over with impunity and spamming arcane unforge to disable waghh and lord sniping

    When get countered.

    WHAT THE ZOG HAPPENED?!

    As someone once said, oh the irony
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,425Registered Users
    edited January 7

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
    I think you mean 900 gold?

    I’m ok with less damage more AP.

    But how undodgeable is this? Perfect tracking?
    150 gold base cost + 78 gold for the spell x2 = 228x2 = 456 gold. A bargain for a stalked and vanguarded gen sniper crew. What is the counter-play? Don't go within 200 meters of anywhere where the opponent can vanguard deploy without scouting?

    Main problem is that's it's so cheap and that you can bring two. If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.
    K, sorry I was just going off your earlier post which is misread. Yeah goblins are inexpensive, and there are some good reasons for thatl.

    Like I said I'm open to reduced non-AP damage but maintaining total AP damage output.

    Still waiting on how good the homing is on this magic missile. Anyone know? Is it especially hard to dodge?

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,164Registered Users
    edited January 7
    yst said:

    Its only ok to abuse allariel on eagle flying over with impunity and spamming arcane unforge to disable waghh and lord sniping

    When get countered.

    WHAT THE ZOG HAPPENED?!

    As someone once said, oh the irony

    k next time I’ll just suicide my frontline into Waagh to please the GS gods.

    Also, AU doesn’t disable Waagh but delays it since you can regain it in melee. Unless you plan to pick Wurzzag, then yes you should be punished for picking a lord weak in melee.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,060Registered Users
    ^ yep exact same thing. If u plan to pick on somethinf large and yet low armour. Then obviously u should get punish for it.
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,699Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
    I think you mean 900 gold?

    I’m ok with less damage more AP.

    But how undodgeable is this? Perfect tracking?
    150 gold base cost + 78 gold for the spell x2 = 228x2 = 456 gold. A bargain for a stalked and vanguarded gen sniper crew. What is the counter-play? Don't go within 200 meters of anywhere where the opponent can vanguard deploy without scouting?

    Main problem is that's it's so cheap and that you can bring two. If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.
    K, sorry I was just going off your earlier post which is misread. Yeah goblins are inexpensive, and there are some good reasons for thatl.

    Like I said I'm open to reduced non-AP damage but maintaining total AP damage output.

    Still waiting on how good the homing is on this magic missile. Anyone know? Is it especially hard to dodge?

    You can dodge a little though it is homing in, but it's harder to do when the shots come from stalk. And even so, it's not really the point since you could be effigied or whatever. Let's say I am really surprised anyone defends that something that cheap can oneshot generals, and from 250 meters, from stalk and vanguard. It's pretty damn insane if you ask me. I heard people say stuff like I am abusing it while I can. Maybe we'll have to wait until it gets more common before people start to think it's a problem. I mean this is double star dragon territory ganking (before it was nerfed) and it costs 450 gold lol, from range and stalk. Like seriously?
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,425Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
    I think you mean 900 gold?

    I’m ok with less damage more AP.

    But how undodgeable is this? Perfect tracking?
    150 gold base cost + 78 gold for the spell x2 = 228x2 = 456 gold. A bargain for a stalked and vanguarded gen sniper crew. What is the counter-play? Don't go within 200 meters of anywhere where the opponent can vanguard deploy without scouting?

    Main problem is that's it's so cheap and that you can bring two. If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.
    K, sorry I was just going off your earlier post which is misread. Yeah goblins are inexpensive, and there are some good reasons for thatl.

    Like I said I'm open to reduced non-AP damage but maintaining total AP damage output.

    Still waiting on how good the homing is on this magic missile. Anyone know? Is it especially hard to dodge?

    You can dodge a little though it is homing in, but it's harder to do when the shots come from stalk. And even so, it's not really the point since you could be effigied or whatever. Let's say I am really surprised anyone defends that something that cheap can oneshot generals, and from 250 meters, from stalk and vanguard. It's pretty damn insane if you ask me. I heard people say stuff like I am abusing it while I can. Maybe we'll have to wait until it gets more common before people start to think it's a problem. I mean this is double star dragon territory ganking (before it was nerfed) and it costs 450 gold lol, from range and stalk. Like seriously?
    Lol. Well I agree on a modification to the non AP damage.

    But I asked about dodging because fireballs do a lot too but can be dodged and they’re ok.

    Bigger picture I haven’t yet seen it gank close combat lords and in my tests it hasn’t been amazing in that regard. I’ve seen it gank squishy unarmored mage lords that are a super cost effective pick and very strong in the meta. I don’t mind them having to be careful.

    So this is better than the previous patch, as are the other magic missile improvements. Sure I see the point of it having a bit too much non AP damage, but if they nerf this too much I’m more concerned about going back to how it used to be.
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
    2 hits was enough to kill full HP Allarielle when she were in combat.
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
    I think you mean 900 gold?

    I’m ok with less damage more AP.

    But how undodgeable is this? Perfect tracking?
    150 gold base cost + 78 gold for the spell x2 = 228x2 = 456 gold. A bargain for a stalked and vanguarded gen sniper crew. What is the counter-play? Don't go within 200 meters of anywhere where the opponent can vanguard deploy without scouting?

    Main problem is that's it's so cheap and that you can bring two. If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.
    K, sorry I was just going off your earlier post which is misread. Yeah goblins are inexpensive, and there are some good reasons for thatl.

    Like I said I'm open to reduced non-AP damage but maintaining total AP damage output.

    Still waiting on how good the homing is on this magic missile. Anyone know? Is it especially hard to dodge?

    You can dodge a little though it is homing in, but it's harder to do when the shots come from stalk. And even so, it's not really the point since you could be effigied or whatever. Let's say I am really surprised anyone defends that something that cheap can oneshot generals, and from 250 meters, from stalk and vanguard. It's pretty damn insane if you ask me. I heard people say stuff like I am abusing it while I can. Maybe we'll have to wait until it gets more common before people start to think it's a problem. I mean this is double star dragon territory ganking (before it was nerfed) and it costs 450 gold lol, from range and stalk. Like seriously?
    Lol. Well I agree on a modification to the non AP damage.

    But I asked about dodging because fireballs do a lot too but can be dodged and they’re ok.

    Bigger picture I haven’t yet seen it gank close combat lords and in my tests it hasn’t been amazing in that regard. I’ve seen it gank squishy unarmored mage lords that are a super cost effective pick and very strong in the meta. I don’t mind them having to be careful.

    So this is better than the previous patch, as are the other magic missile improvements. Sure I see the point of it having a bit too much non AP damage, but if they nerf this too much I’m more concerned about going back to how it used to be.
    I might be wrong, but afaik fireball got lower velocity and makes less dmg than gaze.

    I also have a hard time accepting the fact that 1 hit each by two shamans takes down/shatters a lord on eagle, such as Allarielle. In my last game i enganged a squad of goblin archers wit full HP and she went down in a sec.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,699Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
    I think you mean 900 gold?

    I’m ok with less damage more AP.

    But how undodgeable is this? Perfect tracking?
    150 gold base cost + 78 gold for the spell x2 = 228x2 = 456 gold. A bargain for a stalked and vanguarded gen sniper crew. What is the counter-play? Don't go within 200 meters of anywhere where the opponent can vanguard deploy without scouting?

    Main problem is that's it's so cheap and that you can bring two. If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.
    K, sorry I was just going off your earlier post which is misread. Yeah goblins are inexpensive, and there are some good reasons for thatl.

    Like I said I'm open to reduced non-AP damage but maintaining total AP damage output.

    Still waiting on how good the homing is on this magic missile. Anyone know? Is it especially hard to dodge?

    You can dodge a little though it is homing in, but it's harder to do when the shots come from stalk. And even so, it's not really the point since you could be effigied or whatever. Let's say I am really surprised anyone defends that something that cheap can oneshot generals, and from 250 meters, from stalk and vanguard. It's pretty damn insane if you ask me. I heard people say stuff like I am abusing it while I can. Maybe we'll have to wait until it gets more common before people start to think it's a problem. I mean this is double star dragon territory ganking (before it was nerfed) and it costs 450 gold lol, from range and stalk. Like seriously?
    Lol. Well I agree on a modification to the non AP damage.

    But I asked about dodging because fireballs do a lot too but can be dodged and they’re ok.

    Bigger picture I haven’t yet seen it gank close combat lords and in my tests it hasn’t been amazing in that regard. I’ve seen it gank squishy unarmored mage lords that are a super cost effective pick and very strong in the meta. I don’t mind them having to be careful.

    So this is better than the previous patch, as are the other magic missile improvements. Sure I see the point of it having a bit too much non AP damage, but if they nerf this too much I’m more concerned about going back to how it used to be.
    Sure, but firstly fire mages cost like the double, and even with kindleflame a double fireball only does ~50% damage to Alarielle instead of 80-90%, and the mages don't have stalk and the wom cost is also 18 instead of 16. Not sure which is easiest to dodge, the fireball moves much slower but homes more, and for me quite often I can't see the graphics of the glare if zoomed out, does everyone have that? The gobbos also have these ability recharge ability so that they can cast it right away again if they have the wom...

    In any case, I don't think it's a too big issue with tournament rules where you are only allowed one duplicate of every spell, but when you can bring 2 in QB it's broken. But even with max 1, Slade used it vs shiduku I think it was in combination with one (overcast) spirit leach from Azhag.

    I don't want to remove the counter-play, but realistically it should be doing some 800-ish HP damage at 8 WoM, not 1500 it's insane.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,164Registered Users
    I can't see it either. Lost a couple games because of that. Can't stay zoomed in on Alarielle 100% of the time but maybe I should and wait for glare?
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,425Registered Users
    edited January 8

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
    I think you mean 900 gold?

    I’m ok with less damage more AP.

    But how undodgeable is this? Perfect tracking?
    150 gold base cost + 78 gold for the spell x2 = 228x2 = 456 gold. A bargain for a stalked and vanguarded gen sniper crew. What is the counter-play? Don't go within 200 meters of anywhere where the opponent can vanguard deploy without scouting?

    Main problem is that's it's so cheap and that you can bring two. If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.
    K, sorry I was just going off your earlier post which is misread. Yeah goblins are inexpensive, and there are some good reasons for thatl.

    Like I said I'm open to reduced non-AP damage but maintaining total AP damage output.

    Still waiting on how good the homing is on this magic missile. Anyone know? Is it especially hard to dodge?

    You can dodge a little though it is homing in, but it's harder to do when the shots come from stalk. And even so, it's not really the point since you could be effigied or whatever. Let's say I am really surprised anyone defends that something that cheap can oneshot generals, and from 250 meters, from stalk and vanguard. It's pretty damn insane if you ask me. I heard people say stuff like I am abusing it while I can. Maybe we'll have to wait until it gets more common before people start to think it's a problem. I mean this is double star dragon territory ganking (before it was nerfed) and it costs 450 gold lol, from range and stalk. Like seriously?
    Lol. Well I agree on a modification to the non AP damage.

    But I asked about dodging because fireballs do a lot too but can be dodged and they’re ok.

    Bigger picture I haven’t yet seen it gank close combat lords and in my tests it hasn’t been amazing in that regard. I’ve seen it gank squishy unarmored mage lords that are a super cost effective pick and very strong in the meta. I don’t mind them having to be careful.

    So this is better than the previous patch, as are the other magic missile improvements. Sure I see the point of it having a bit too much non AP damage, but if they nerf this too much I’m more concerned about going back to how it used to be.
    Sure, but firstly fire mages cost like the double, and even with kindleflame a double fireball only does ~50% damage to Alarielle instead of 80-90%, and the mages don't have stalk and the wom cost is also 18 instead of 16. Not sure which is easiest to dodge, the fireball moves much slower but homes more, and for me quite often I can't see the graphics of the glare if zoomed out, does everyone have that? The gobbos also have these ability recharge ability so that they can cast it right away again if they have the wom...

    In any case, I don't think it's a too big issue with tournament rules where you are only allowed one duplicate of every spell, but when you can bring 2 in QB it's broken. But even with max 1, Slade used it vs shiduku I think it was in combination with one (overcast) spirit leach from Azhag.

    I don't want to remove the counter-play, but realistically it should be doing some 800-ish HP damage at 8 WoM, not 1500 it's insane.

    Sure the point is there is a spell that is very dangerous to light armored mounted characters. I agree it shouldn't be quite that dangerous and anyway light armor is not the primary challenge greenskins have (though pesky completely unshootable flyers definitely is).

    WoM slight adjustment won't really change the main complaint, and I don't mind greenskins having that efficiency since it's a crucial spell for them vs some builds. Cost or pluses minuses of goblin mages isn't relevant either.

    That said, factions regularly close off other faction's build options based on the matchup. If allarielle or a mage lord on an eagle became largely non-viable vs greenskins in particular, that's not a tragedy. Some LL's are viable in some matchups, some aren't. There's even an elven faction or two that can basically ignore all the other sources of damage that the greenskin player can do to their flyers (spirit leech less efficient than healing). Is that fair? If the choice is between greenskins having no effective counter to flyers, or having to take a 500 point counter that in turn can be counterpicked and made pretty ineffective with a different lord, approach, or even cautious play... i'll gladly take the latter.

    Of course, that's not the choice and I hope CA can do a tweak so it's better than fireball but not hugely better, while still being equally effective vs armor. But I hope you can see where I am coming from with concern about once again nerfing magic missiles to uselessness.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,731Registered Users
    edited January 8
    fire ball can be dodged this cant.

    Though fireball is bit OP too vs foot heroes.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,378Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
    I think you mean 900 gold?

    I’m ok with less damage more AP.

    But how undodgeable is this? Perfect tracking?
    150 gold base cost + 78 gold for the spell x2 = 228x2 = 456 gold. A bargain for a stalked and vanguarded gen sniper crew. What is the counter-play? Don't go within 200 meters of anywhere where the opponent can vanguard deploy without scouting?

    Main problem is that's it's so cheap and that you can bring two. If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.
    K, sorry I was just going off your earlier post which is misread. Yeah goblins are inexpensive, and there are some good reasons for thatl.

    Like I said I'm open to reduced non-AP damage but maintaining total AP damage output.

    Still waiting on how good the homing is on this magic missile. Anyone know? Is it especially hard to dodge?

    You can dodge a little though it is homing in, but it's harder to do when the shots come from stalk. And even so, it's not really the point since you could be effigied or whatever. Let's say I am really surprised anyone defends that something that cheap can oneshot generals, and from 250 meters, from stalk and vanguard. It's pretty damn insane if you ask me. I heard people say stuff like I am abusing it while I can. Maybe we'll have to wait until it gets more common before people start to think it's a problem. I mean this is double star dragon territory ganking (before it was nerfed) and it costs 450 gold lol, from range and stalk. Like seriously?
    Lol. Well I agree on a modification to the non AP damage.

    But I asked about dodging because fireballs do a lot too but can be dodged and they’re ok.

    Bigger picture I haven’t yet seen it gank close combat lords and in my tests it hasn’t been amazing in that regard. I’ve seen it gank squishy unarmored mage lords that are a super cost effective pick and very strong in the meta. I don’t mind them having to be careful.

    So this is better than the previous patch, as are the other magic missile improvements. Sure I see the point of it having a bit too much non AP damage, but if they nerf this too much I’m more concerned about going back to how it used to be.
    Sure, but firstly fire mages cost like the double, and even with kindleflame a double fireball only does ~50% damage to Alarielle instead of 80-90%, and the mages don't have stalk and the wom cost is also 18 instead of 16. Not sure which is easiest to dodge, the fireball moves much slower but homes more, and for me quite often I can't see the graphics of the glare if zoomed out, does everyone have that? The gobbos also have these ability recharge ability so that they can cast it right away again if they have the wom...

    In any case, I don't think it's a too big issue with tournament rules where you are only allowed one duplicate of every spell, but when you can bring 2 in QB it's broken. But even with max 1, Slade used it vs shiduku I think it was in combination with one (overcast) spirit leach from Azhag.

    I don't want to remove the counter-play, but realistically it should be doing some 800-ish HP damage at 8 WoM, not 1500 it's insane.

    Sure the point is there is a spell that is very dangerous to light armored mounted characters. I agree it shouldn't be quite that dangerous and anyway light armor is not the primary challenge greenskins have (though pesky completely unshootable flyers definitely is).

    WoM slight adjustment won't really change the main complaint, and I don't mind greenskins having that efficiency since it's a crucial spell for them vs some builds. Cost or pluses minuses of goblin mages isn't relevant either.

    That said, factions regularly close off other faction's build options based on the matchup. If allarielle or a mage lord on an eagle became largely non-viable vs greenskins in particular, that's not a tragedy. Some LL's are viable in some matchups, some aren't. There's even an elven faction or two that can basically ignore all the other sources of damage that the greenskin player can do to their flyers (spirit leech less efficient than healing). Is that fair? If the choice is between greenskins having no effective counter to flyers, or having to take a 500 point counter that in turn can be counterpicked and made pretty ineffective with a different lord, approach, or even cautious play... i'll gladly take the latter.

    Of course, that's not the choice and I hope CA can do a tweak so it's better than fireball but not hugely better, while still being equally effective vs armor. But I hope you can see where I am coming from with concern about once again nerfing magic missiles to uselessness.
    Amen. While the damage output could perhaps use some tweaks, I think that overall it is fine. Taking Alarielle on an Eagle is not a god given right against every faction, especially when Arcane Unforging is so good against greenskins. You should have to work to stop the Waagh, not just fly overhead with very limited chances for counterplay
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,731Registered Users
    Take warzagh and net her, than shoot her to pieces.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Posts: 301Registered Users
    Just funny to find that this is considered problematic now, when quite long ago it was alredy an easy awnser to the uncounterable nightmare, always op, skink chief on terradon. Seems a youtuber has to point something out and many people raise their hands to their heads...

    The changes done on the arc of fire and accuracy of these multishot missiles on the last patch, was a needed change to make them worth using against anything that wasnt flying. That said, they were not on the need of -1 WoM. I would revert this and add an extra +1 for the upgraded vindictive glare.

    Im not against GS having a cost effective way to deal with large targets by these spells, however i think Waaagh is still too good as an early engagement tool. Just the mapwide +20 MA for 30 seconds is good enough to win the initial fights and the more you kill the more difficult is for the opponent to comeback. This forces factions that can disrupt it to take that risk and unless you are Mazda on Zlaaq, if your opponent knows what to expect its not going to be worth it due to these missiles.

    So i would say that its not a problem about these spells, its rather by Waaagh. I would make Waaagh to last 5 seconds less and to grant just +15 MA. To compensate it would have -10 seconds CD and grant +10 LD.
  • ricmornricmorn Posts: 204Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
    I think you mean 900 gold?

    I’m ok with less damage more AP.

    But how undodgeable is this? Perfect tracking?
    150 gold base cost + 78 gold for the spell x2 = 228x2 = 456 gold. A bargain for a stalked and vanguarded gen sniper crew. What is the counter-play? Don't go within 200 meters of anywhere where the opponent can vanguard deploy without scouting?

    Main problem is that's it's so cheap and that you can bring two. If you wan to troll HE players, also bring Azhag on wyvern for lolz and deploy him to the side with the shamans stalked in front to the side. No HE player with tempest will be able to resist nearing the area and then boom, and you can follow up with an over-casted spirit leach if needed, and game won. It really shouldn't be.
    K, sorry I was just going off your earlier post which is misread. Yeah goblins are inexpensive, and there are some good reasons for thatl.

    Like I said I'm open to reduced non-AP damage but maintaining total AP damage output.

    Still waiting on how good the homing is on this magic missile. Anyone know? Is it especially hard to dodge?

    You can dodge a little though it is homing in, but it's harder to do when the shots come from stalk. And even so, it's not really the point since you could be effigied or whatever. Let's say I am really surprised anyone defends that something that cheap can oneshot generals, and from 250 meters, from stalk and vanguard. It's pretty damn insane if you ask me. I heard people say stuff like I am abusing it while I can. Maybe we'll have to wait until it gets more common before people start to think it's a problem. I mean this is double star dragon territory ganking (before it was nerfed) and it costs 450 gold lol, from range and stalk. Like seriously?
    Lol. Well I agree on a modification to the non AP damage.

    But I asked about dodging because fireballs do a lot too but can be dodged and they’re ok.

    Bigger picture I haven’t yet seen it gank close combat lords and in my tests it hasn’t been amazing in that regard. I’ve seen it gank squishy unarmored mage lords that are a super cost effective pick and very strong in the meta. I don’t mind them having to be careful.

    So this is better than the previous patch, as are the other magic missile improvements. Sure I see the point of it having a bit too much non AP damage, but if they nerf this too much I’m more concerned about going back to how it used to be.
    Sure, but firstly fire mages cost like the double, and even with kindleflame a double fireball only does ~50% damage to Alarielle instead of 80-90%, and the mages don't have stalk and the wom cost is also 18 instead of 16. Not sure which is easiest to dodge, the fireball moves much slower but homes more, and for me quite often I can't see the graphics of the glare if zoomed out, does everyone have that? The gobbos also have these ability recharge ability so that they can cast it right away again if they have the wom...

    In any case, I don't think it's a too big issue with tournament rules where you are only allowed one duplicate of every spell, but when you can bring 2 in QB it's broken. But even with max 1, Slade used it vs shiduku I think it was in combination with one (overcast) spirit leach from Azhag.

    I don't want to remove the counter-play, but realistically it should be doing some 800-ish HP damage at 8 WoM, not 1500 it's insane.

    Sure the point is there is a spell that is very dangerous to light armored mounted characters. I agree it shouldn't be quite that dangerous and anyway light armor is not the primary challenge greenskins have (though pesky completely unshootable flyers definitely is).

    WoM slight adjustment won't really change the main complaint, and I don't mind greenskins having that efficiency since it's a crucial spell for them vs some builds. Cost or pluses minuses of goblin mages isn't relevant either.

    That said, factions regularly close off other faction's build options based on the matchup. If allarielle or a mage lord on an eagle became largely non-viable vs greenskins in particular, that's not a tragedy. Some LL's are viable in some matchups, some aren't. There's even an elven faction or two that can basically ignore all the other sources of damage that the greenskin player can do to their flyers (spirit leech less efficient than healing). Is that fair? If the choice is between greenskins having no effective counter to flyers, or having to take a 500 point counter that in turn can be counterpicked and made pretty ineffective with a different lord, approach, or even cautious play... i'll gladly take the latter.

    Of course, that's not the choice and I hope CA can do a tweak so it's better than fireball but not hugely better, while still being equally effective vs armor. But I hope you can see where I am coming from with concern about once again nerfing magic missiles to uselessness.
    Amen. While the damage output could perhaps use some tweaks, I think that overall it is fine. Taking Alarielle on an Eagle is not a god given right against every faction, especially when Arcane Unforging is so good against greenskins. You should have to work to stop the Waagh, not just fly overhead with very limited chances for counterplay
    The damage could do with a little tweaking. Vindictive Glare shoots 5 missiles at 60 velocity, double that of fireball and a bit faster than most arrows, that do 95/40 normal/AP damage (475/200 total if they all hit. Very similar to Fireball, but much more damaging to unarmored units than, say, Shem's Burning Gaze) plus 66 anti large, assumed per missile, meaning against large units Vindictive Glare has a raw damage of 138/63 per missile, so 690/315. Overcasting Vindictive Glare doubles the missiles from 5 to 10. Meaning a single overcast of Vindictive Glare, if every missile hits a large target, does 1380/630 damage. That's probably why it's much more noticeable on larger units as it's much easier to hit with every missile. Now have 2 shamans overcasting 2 of them and you have 2760/1260 potential damage. Ow. A way to make it hurt less is to double the damage but remove the doubling of the missiles on the overcast, as it's making the anti-large bonus double as well.

    Missile spells do a stupendous amount of damage to large units, but it feels a bit like it's jammed into that niche with a sledgehammer due to their massive effects. I just don't want a return to the olden days of tournament plays where it's 8 minutes of casters sniping each other before the fight begins.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,060Registered Users
    Gaze is dif, its only applicable to single target really. Ure not gonna kill anything else with it. Prolly what 2 swordsman or something stupid. Someone else can test it coz im on holidays
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  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    yst said:

    Gaze is dif, its only applicable to single target really. Ure not gonna kill anything else with it. Prolly what 2 swordsman or something stupid. Someone else can test it coz im on holidays

    But it's a dirt cheap spell that 1) almost always has targets and 2)Tacking on a sneaky snabbing+itchy nuisance costs almost nothing.

    I even used the spell vs dwarves in QM and got good results sniping their artillery with it. Being able to snipe out artillery is definitely not bad for the greenskins ontop of the lores existing utility.
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  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,378Registered Users
    edited January 8

    Take warzagh and net her, than shoot her to pieces.

    Wurrzag being the only (very) limited counterplay to flyers is bs. Vindictive glare is mostly fine (maybe a damage tweak is needed, not an accuracy one) and gives the GS another tool against flying single entities.

    Wurrzag is already extremely dominant in the GS meta, I see no good reason to nerf mostly fine spells that allow for more varied gameplay. Like I said, taking Alarielle or a caster in the air is not a god given right.

    Flying caster Lords are already the most optimum lord choice 99% of the time, they should need to be more careful and vindictive glare helps with that.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,731Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    Take warzagh and net her, than shoot her to pieces.

    Wurrzag being the only (very) limited counterplay to flyers is bs. Vindictive glare is mostly fine (maybe a damage tweak is needed, not an accuracy one) and gives the GS another tool against flying single entities.

    Wurrzag is already extremely dominant in the GS meta, I see no good reason to nerf mostly fine spells that allow for more varied gameplay. Like I said, taking Alarielle or a caster in the air is not a god given right.

    Flying caster Lords are already the most optimum lord choice 99% of the time, they should need to be more careful and vindictive glare helps with that.
    I was waitng for someone to say that lol, so its not ok that warzahg is the only viable counter to flying allariel but its ok that allariel on eagle is the only viable counter to GS waghh? How hypocritical
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