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Vindictive glare far too cost effective?

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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,148Registered Users
    people just want point & click abilities, this is the simple truth
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users

    OrkLads said:

    Take warzagh and net her, than shoot her to pieces.

    Wurrzag being the only (very) limited counterplay to flyers is bs. Vindictive glare is mostly fine (maybe a damage tweak is needed, not an accuracy one) and gives the GS another tool against flying single entities.

    Wurrzag is already extremely dominant in the GS meta, I see no good reason to nerf mostly fine spells that allow for more varied gameplay. Like I said, taking Alarielle or a caster in the air is not a god given right.

    Flying caster Lords are already the most optimum lord choice 99% of the time, they should need to be more careful and vindictive glare helps with that.
    I was waitng for someone to say that lol, so its not ok that warzahg is the only viable counter to flying allariel but its ok that allariel on eagle is the only viable counter to GS waghh? How hypocritical
    Eh, while I agree vindictive glare is a bit overtuned, you can counterplay Waaagh with other tools too, and last I checked SM's still beat BO's even with a waagh thrown into the mix. Obviously Allarielle has the easiest time of it, and you can honestly just use her brainlessly because there's so little the GS player can do to deny her, but imo that's actually a solid argument for vindictive glare working the way it does.
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,693Registered Users
    There are some really strange arguments in here.

    Counter. Sure, gs should have counters to flying stuff. So should bret, bm, skv, norsca. That does not equal introduce op stuff that does 3000+ burst damage from stalk and 250m at an investment of 256 gold, get real. Should he get a stalked mage for, let's be generous, 500 gold that kills half a unit of grail knight's in one shot for 8 wom? Because the same reasons? Of course not. Nothing in this game should do 3000 + damage with that little counter play for that small investment. Nothing. What. So. Ever.

    Waagh. Frankly I don't think this is about the waagh, if we talk arcane unforging we are talking HE and HE don't need to unforge, just go full mobile cav army. Still a good abusive spell vs gs but not needed really. This discussion should only be about raw damage output.

    Entitlement. That's bs, it's not about that at all, that's just a salty reply. This spell is clearly the result of an oversight probably related to the bvl and overcast combination.

    I just can't believe anyone in their right mind seriously defend such obviously broken stuff. Amazing.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,148Registered Users
    edited January 8
    just bring archers vs Alarielle. Also, Black Orcs are amazing vs HE, especially if you let them survive until late game they work like Halberds, have really high mass and they do nasty damage to a lot of HE stuff, very resistant vs cavalry charges too especially late game.

    Also, vindictive glare is a potential pick in 14 other matchups. It can't always be about HE. Alarielle or no this spell is broken for the WoM/gold/damage ratio.
  • y4g3ry4g3r Posts: 182Registered Users
    Don't have a problem with gaze at all.

    If you're flying your low armoured, caster/lord over a greenskin line by itself with no support, you deserve to get punished.

    If you're riding your caster alone near a front-line, with no support you deserve to get punished.

    V.glare has a medium penetration. It means it will pierce through infantry sized models, but not large or cavalry sized.

    Options:
    One. Bring a caster on foot. No bonus vs anti large. This drops the damage received significantly.

    Two. Don't fly your squishy lord over the battleline until you know where the goblin mages are. I swear I've never heard about stalk seeming so powerful before. You don't need great positioning to avoid the glare of a goblin on foot.

    Three. Place your squishy mage in a unit of screening cavalry or other large units.

    Vindictive glare is a missile spell. Most of the time if it aimed at a unit on the ground it will lose half its projectiles before it reaches its target. If you're close enough to be hit by two mages simultaneously with overcasts, you're doing it wrong, you've been abusing greenskins lack of air for too long and you should learn to do better, rather than call for nerfs.

    Also, don't tell me to use Wurrzag. Effigy of the git is one of the most abusive abilities in the game currently and telling me to use an abusive abulity instead of an situational ability seems ludicrous. I don't want to "have" to pick him as the only abusive counter to possible abuse.

    I like the utility of a goblin shaman and the little waaagh. Maybe it's time for all casters to have a higher base cost, but leave vindictive glare alone.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,693Registered Users
    y4g3r said:

    Don't have a problem with gaze at all.

    If you're flying your low armoured, caster/lord over a greenskin line by itself with no support, you deserve to get punished.

    If you're riding your caster alone near a front-line, with no support you deserve to get punished.

    V.glare has a medium penetration. It means it will pierce through infantry sized models, but not large or cavalry sized.

    Options:
    One. Bring a caster on foot. No bonus vs anti large. This drops the damage received significantly.

    Two. Don't fly your squishy lord over the battleline until you know where the goblin mages are. I swear I've never heard about stalk seeming so powerful before. You don't need great positioning to avoid the glare of a goblin on foot.

    Three. Place your squishy mage in a unit of screening cavalry or other large units.

    Vindictive glare is a missile spell. Most of the time if it aimed at a unit on the ground it will lose half its projectiles before it reaches its target. If you're close enough to be hit by two mages simultaneously with overcasts, you're doing it wrong, you've been abusing greenskins lack of air for too long and you should learn to do better, rather than call for nerfs.

    Also, don't tell me to use Wurrzag. Effigy of the git is one of the most abusive abilities in the game currently and telling me to use an abusive abulity instead of an situational ability seems ludicrous. I don't want to "have" to pick him as the only abusive counter to possible abuse.

    I like the utility of a goblin shaman and the little waaagh. Maybe it's time for all casters to have a higher base cost, but leave vindictive glare alone.

    They are so cheap and could be deployed behind you stalked as a throw-away trade 450 gold for the enemy caster lord, then bring the wurst-man as your real caster lord. Just stop defending this nonsense lol. You are just barely safe in your deployment zone for christs sake.

    Well, I have said my piece, I'll just have to wait until it has been abused enough, or join in and abuse the hell out of people in QB until it's gone.
  • konosmgrkonosmgr Posts: 161Registered Users
    edited January 8
    I was waiting for this post for a while. It's obvious that this spell is way egregiously overtuned, it is basically undodgeable on flying casters and does more than 20-25% hp damage when overcasted. It also works wonders vs horse casters, as long as you don't have any line of sight issues. It is less efficient on unmounted casters as the missiles tend to contact the ground. Point and click spells shouldn't have this much potential damage with minimal ability to dodge. Right now in order to avoid it, you either have to put something between your caster and the shaman, or stay out of it's (250m)? range. Point and click spells shouldn't have this much potential damage with restricted ability to dodge ( it connects more than fireball ony flying lords). Also to top it off, the shaman has stalk and vanguard deployment and the spell sometimes bugs out visually and you don't see the missiles comming. It also does absurd amounts of easy damage against things like the giant/moon dragon/ forest dragon, with basically 0 counterplay and downside(aside from the shaman eventually dying from overcasting).
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,227Registered Users
    It could have a little less casting range and cost a bit more WoM, but Greenskins need spells such as these.

    Fireballs need to get nerfed as well. One shooting every artillery piece with it is a bit too much.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,693Registered Users

    It could have a little less casting range and cost a bit more WoM, but Greenskins need spells such as these.

    Fireballs need to get nerfed as well. One shooting every artillery piece with it is a bit too much.

    They need the tool for sure, but they don't need the alpha strike to instakill any general in this game, so I would do the opposite. Reduce damage, keep WoM the same, and probably reduce range to 200 or even 150, and the cooldown could be 45 seconds, which would then become 15 seconds with the power item. Then you have a tool to deal efficient damage to flying targets at a more reasonable pace, but not one-shot them out of the sky with no counter-play.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited January 8

    but they don't need the alpha strike to instakill any general in this game, so I would do the opposite.

    It does not kill any general in the game. It is bad vs armor, bad vs ground targets(even on open maps you can screen Lord with your troops), not so dangerous for Dragon mounts. It is good mainly vs low armor flying targets, that is all.

    Other factions somehow manage to live with HE or WE net+instakill Lord. GS magic missiles are less threatening. Do not abuse GS with flying unarmored caster and you would be fine.
    konosmgr said:

    Point and click spells

    It is not Point and click. You need both clear line of sight and it can miss.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,050Registered Users
    Talking about goblin shaman itself is bs. All night goblins r stalk and vanguard. So that has nothing to do with gaze. A fimir mage with over 30% missile resist is a fimir and nothing to do with the lores theyre given.

    Stupid as hell listening to ppl talk about their flying getting dmg. Of coz they frikking do, they have what, 30 armor? And gaze is an anti large spell.

    Nothing more than dodge abuser crying because they cant cheese their way out. Prolly somehow thing abusing dodge to 100% evade arrows and spells some kind of magical skill or something.

    Mustve ironically thought flying thru $3000+ of ork archers and taking 0 dmg is suppose to happen
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  • y4g3ry4g3r Posts: 182Registered Users


    They need the tool for sure, but they don't need the alpha strike to instakill any general in this game, so I would do the opposite. Reduce damage, keep WoM the same, and probably reduce range to 200 or even 150, and the cooldown could be 45 seconds, which would then become 15 seconds with the power item. Then you have a tool to deal efficient damage to flying targets at a more reasonable pace, but not one-shot them out of the sky with no counter-play.

    Ah, the classic kneejerk reaction to balance that we don't need, supported by arguements that are so out of the realm of reality that it's hard to tell if you believe your own lies.

    You also say it costs 450 gold for two, yet ignore the cost of the power item which is part of your argument in the first place.

    You can't alpha-strike-insta-kill any general in this game with two night goblin shamans. You can't. End of discussion.

    If you are being alpha-striked-insta-killed by two "on foot" night goblin shamans, in your own deployment zone no less, then there would be dozens of videos on Youtube and that would be the current meta. It's not.

    Also, an approach to balance is a step by step process. You don't nerf something by changing its damage and its range and its cooldown. You tune it. One step at a time if needed.

    Personally I think that all casters are underpriced. I think that a base cost increase to all casters would be great.

    If your issue is with damage, I suggest you look at the damage output of shem's burning gaze, or gaze of nagash.

    Increasing its wom to 5 (10) could be a step in the right direction

    But none of this nerf everything all at once bs.

    And also, effigy of the git is bs to such a higher extent than this. It really isn't so bad except for people who like abusing a factions weakness and are now being caught out for their lack of adaptability.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,693Registered Users
    No, the alpha strike needs to go down, it's that simple. Other spells and abilities have typically short range, worse damage/wom, less total damage and are not cast from a stalk platform.

    And this damage is from two shamans casting one overcasted spell each, no items required. You could spam even more with these but then there is a short delay from casting so then there is some counter play possible. Not from alarielle though because she is most likely routing or dead.

    If you don't think this will be abused, just wait.... Because people.
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 575Registered Users

    No, the alpha strike needs to go down, it's that simple. Other spells and abilities have typically short range, worse damage/wom, less total damage and are not cast from a stalk platform.

    And this damage is from two shamans casting one overcasted spell each, no items required. You could spam even more with these but then there is a short delay from casting so then there is some counter play possible. Not from alarielle though because she is most likely routing or dead.

    If you don't think this will be abused, just wait.... Because people.

    I do agree with this. Rebalancing the AP ratio so that the damage is not so high vs low armour but it is still useful vs 80 armour dragons, and either removing the OC on vindictive glare seems like a fair solution. If the OC version is kept, maybe increase WoM to 5/10 instead.

    The missiles will still have their role as counterplay to air, but the alpha potential vs low armour drops significantly.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited January 8
    Exarch said:


    I do agree with this. Rebalancing the AP ratio so that the damage is not so high vs low armour but it is still useful vs 80 armour dragons, and either removing the OC on vindictive glare seems like a fair solution. If the OC version is kept, maybe increase WoM to 5/10 instead.

    The missiles will still have their role as counterplay to air, but the alpha potential vs low armour drops significantly.

    No. It is not fair. GS suffer from flying unarmored casters abuse. Plus GS arrows despite poor accuracy can hit target of the size of dragon.

    Right now Vindictive glare is a useful spell. You propose to turn it into useless garbage like Nagash Gaze.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,693Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Exarch said:


    I do agree with this. Rebalancing the AP ratio so that the damage is not so high vs low armour but it is still useful vs 80 armour dragons, and either removing the OC on vindictive glare seems like a fair solution. If the OC version is kept, maybe increase WoM to 5/10 instead.

    The missiles will still have their role as counterplay to air, but the alpha potential vs low armour drops significantly.

    No. It is not fair. GS suffer from flying unarmored casters abuse. Plus GS arrows despite poor accuracy can hit target of the size of dragon.

    Right now Vindictive glare is a useful spell. You propose to turn it into useless garbage like Nagash Gaze.
    Please, get this point: it's fine that gs have a spell that deals efficient and reliable damage to flyers. What is not fine is that two shamans can deal 3000-4000 damage in one second and instaroute or even kill an enemy general from 250 meters and stalk. Completely out of the question that that is within the balance norm of this game.

    Single cast is kind of ok though very wom efficient and easy to apply. Probably still a bit op but not game breaking. It's the double over cast that is game breaking. Making over cast not add extra missiles, but rather add extra ap to the existing missiles is probably a good fix in my opinion. The range also needs to be evaluated because 500 meter diameter no fly zone from stalk is pretty big impact for 228 gold per Shaman minimum spend.

    Now I'm going to get drunk instead, peace out.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users
    I actually like Disposables suggestion here. More AP on overcast would give the spell more utility and make it less ridiculous vs low armor mages. People complaining about the spell being slightly nerfed just don't want to lose an overperforming tool that takes almost no skill to use. The fact that the spell isn't abused in QM is irrelevant. There's plenty of strong mechanics players dont abuse all the time.
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  • ExarchExarch Posts: 575Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    still have their role as counterplay to air, but the alpha potential vs low armour drops significantly.

    No. It is not fair. GS suffer from flying unarmored casters abuse. Plus GS arrows despite poor accuracy can hit target of the size of dragon.

    Right now Vindictive glare is a useful spell. You propose to turn it into useless garbage like Nagash Gaze.

    I make my point from a GS main perspective, and while trying not to abuse the spell there have been many occasions it has been OP for me. It is very hard to dodge if the terrain is flat or sloping gently and it just does too much damge when you consider how cheap and spammabel it is with multi casters:

    1. A close game vs DE (I think I may have pulled it off, but hard to tell), was decided when I took about half health off mounted Hellebron with Gaze of Mork (which can't even be OC), as she has basically no armour and PR is useless.
    2. Wurzag GoM + OC vindictive glare took alarielle down to 2/3 health vs HE when she attempted a flyby AU. She retreated, healed and then died in about 20s to another volley plus archer fire when I advanced. I think the damage should be high enough to punish
    3. I have taken nearly 2000 damage off a forest dragon with OC VG plus rusty arrers sundering it's armour down to 20, 2/5 of it's health - a good synergy, but if I had taken more casters I would have been able to alpha a dragon in about 10s.
    4. Squishy caster mages on horses have armour of 20 or so, and it's perfectly possible to get a good hit with all the missiles and is difficult to dodge, so that 1500-2000ish spike of damage comes close to one shotting them. Taking 1/4-1/3 of their health off with one cast on a hard to dodge spammable spell is strong, 3/4 is OP.
    5. it should be noted that Gaze of Mork can be boosted to 400m, so while it is not as strong as vindictive glare, it is not simple to just get out of range with a very squichy target if the map has no trees or valleys to hide in.
    I want vindictive glare and gaze of mork to be strong, so that they do good work against dragons and fliers and allow the GS player to contest the air game, but not to be so strong that they can instantly delete things. The ability to take them cheaply with multiple casters leaves them very open to abuse, and something needs to be done to change that.

    I would prefer they remained a cheap spell that can chunk consistent damage over the course of a game, rather than as an alpha strike, so that getting value out of them requires work in protecting the casters, but any flyby attackers are still punished hard enough to make them think again, even with healing.

    I think you could argue for them to perform similarly to currently, but to increase VG WoM cost to 6/12, or even 7/14, which would limit spamming, but still allow for powerful alpha strikes and overperformance vs some targets. In general, easy alpha strike with little counterplay are bad in this game. It was bad enough for GS lord having to cope with AU, spirit leach or fireball flybys slowly chunking them down, but giving GS the ability to take out unarmoured characters near instantly as a side effect of giving counterplay to fliers is not good gameplay in the other direction.

    I want the spells to continue to perform well vs air, but not be OP vs unarmoured targets. Even after my rebalance, a missile that can take something like 500-750 HP off a mounted mage is worth worrying about, but is good rather than OP.


  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    More AP on overcast would give the spell

    Would turn it in bad Spirit Leech like spell or trash like Gaze of Nagash. The main reason why Vindictive Glare is usable is due to not overpaying for AP.
    If you do not like your caster being killed, pay for armor or do not abuse flying casters.
    HE has no problem to snipe any flying Lord with Tempest or Net(and in case of net it is effective vs ground Lord too) + focus fire it is much deadlier than Vindictive Glare.
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 575Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    More AP on overcast would give the spell

    Would turn it in bad Spirit Leech like spell or trash like Gaze of Nagash. The main reason why Vindictive Glare is usable is due to not overpaying for AP.
    If you do not like your caster being killed, pay for armor or do not abuse flying casters.
    HE has no problem to snipe any flying Lord with Tempest or Net(and in case of net it is effective vs ground Lord too) + focus fire it is much deadlier than Vindictive Glare.
    I think the idea has merits. The non-OC version is plenty powerful enough at the WoM, but this is another way to limit spam.

    While non OC it may still be a bit strong vs mounted mages. 2 casters would be able to do about 35-40% damage to Alarielle on eagle, so I think it would safely be considered a hard counter, but would be less abusable.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,050Registered Users
    ^ thats right on point. Main reason no one ever overcast leech bsed on the fact its simply a stupid move throwing mana away for nothing. CA easily have access to such data.

    Its a spell that has absolutely no uses other than countering dodge abuse players, ussually abusing single mounted model on the fastest steeds in game. Any changes on what they r now will need an extreme level of compensation. The spell r specifically design to deal with low armour large targets. If ure armoured and small, its nothing but a horrible spell. So for ppl to whine about what they do to low armour large, is pretty much nonsense really
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  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users
    edited January 8
    tank3487 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    More AP on overcast would give the spell

    Would turn it in bad Spirit Leech like spell or trash like Gaze of Nagash. The main reason why Vindictive Glare is usable is due to not overpaying for AP.
    If you do not like your caster being killed, pay for armor or do not abuse flying casters.
    HE has no problem to snipe any flying Lord with Tempest or Net(and in case of net it is effective vs ground Lord too) + focus fire it is much deadlier than Vindictive Glare.
    ****.
    1) It still has 150m more range than normal SL and still hits harder vs lighter targets if you take away its overcast multi-shot.
    2)Your solution to the problem currently is just ridiculous. This isn't like a luminark that everybody knows is on the field immediately and eats up 15% of your opponents armies total cost. It's 250 gold worth of a unit. No other unit has such ridiculous power for its cost. Seriously, try and name one that does, i'll wait. And saying "just bring one with armor" is dumb, most factions don't have an armored caster or fay enchantress to face tank a swarm of magic missiles.
    3)The comparison to net+snipe is simply stupid. Archers cost extra money(even the cheapest HE archers cost 475, so almost the value of 2 gobbo shamans), are easily visible, have far less range and are far easier to shut down. It's just a lazy attempt to excuse a very badly balanced spell.

    The fact that GS don't have good variety of anti-air measures doesn't mean a unit/ability that is dedicated to AA needs to be OP to compensate. Scaling back the burst on the spell would leave it as a potent counter without making it an insta-gib from stealth the way it can be now. The fact that high elves don't have a great counter to grail knights hasn't resulted in nobles getting 1000 WS with enough splash to cleave down half the formation in a single blow, so why should the fact that GS have no great counter to flying casters mean they deserve something similar.

    I say this as someone who rarely plays high elves(or any elves for that matter) to boot. The only faction I play a lot that's affected is empire, and I still think the current state of VG is bad.
    Post edited by Wyvern2 on
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  • y4g3ry4g3r Posts: 182Registered Users
    I'd take any criticism on vindictive glare with more seriousness if the arguments didn't involve statements with "1000 WS" or "HE have no counter to gk". Wtf does that have to do with anything? Who actually believes that?

    I am all for talk of balance, just have some sense of reason.

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:


    1) It still has 150m more range than normal SL and still hits harder vs lighter targets if you take away its overcast multi-shot.

    It can miss, unlike SL, armor work vs it. Really, do not abuse unarmored flying casters if you anticipate double VG and you would be fine(and it is not just gold, it is hero slots that GS could not use now due to them being taken by goblin casters).
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users
    edited January 8
    y4g3r said:

    I'd take any criticism on vindictive glare with more seriousness if the arguments didn't involve statements with "1000 WS" or "HE have no counter to gk". Wtf does that have to do with anything? Who actually believes that?

    I am all for talk of balance, just have some sense of reason.

    It is perfectly reasonable to make such a comparison. If anything it's tame.
    GS have issues with flyers, vindictive glare can take ~50% of the hp off most light armor flying single models. A stealthed, 250 gold unit, for 8 WoM, can knock a lord/hero down by ~50% of their hp from 250m(one that probably costs multiple times what the shaman costs, at minimum 2-3x the cost, quite possibly 4+.
    As such, since HE have issues with GK(They still do, there's a reason this match is so brutally skewed toward brettonia, and GK are the core of it), why not give one of their only real counters( the noble) 1k WS+high splash so that he can chop off 1/5th of their hp in a single swing.

    It's a perfectly valid comparison given the ridiculous, over the top nature of vindictive glares current damage output. It's not like the spell is terrible vs non-squishy large either. It's decent vs arty in normal cast and respectable enough vs any large.

    Even if it wasn't a fair comparison it does nothing to invalidate the hard facts of how effective the spell currently is.
    tank3487 said:

    Wyvern2 said:


    1) It still has 150m more range than normal SL and still hits harder vs lighter targets if you take away its overcast multi-shot.

    It can miss, unlike SL, armor work vs it. Really, do not abuse unarmored flying casters if you anticipate double VG and you would be fine(and it is not just gold, it is hero slots that GS could not use now due to them being taken by goblin casters).
    Sure it can miss, and sure armor works. But that's just a tradeoff. Currently, for 4 WoM the spell does great damage as is, and with overcast annihilates units completely. SL costs the same as an overcast, is a bit random in its damage output but definitely doing less and has much shorter range.

    And who cares about hero slots for GS. Goblin big bosses are near useless and so are orc shamans(especially if you're using wurrzag).
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  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,227Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Wyvern2 said:


    1) It still has 150m more range than normal SL and still hits harder vs lighter targets if you take away its overcast multi-shot.

    It can miss, unlike SL, armor work vs it. Really, do not abuse unarmored flying casters if you anticipate double VG and you would be fine(and it is not just gold, it is hero slots that GS could not use now due to them being taken by goblin casters).

    What does "abusing unarmoured flying casters" even mean?

    If it is on the ground, it is not abusing? Or is just a flying caster abusing? Non casting flier? Or armoured flying casters?

    It deals effectively with fliers and non fliers. The point is that it can delete low armour priority characters.

    That was the deal with net of amyntok, so we had it's cost increased and limited its range to 100m. Same thing was done to prey of anaeth rama. Skink chief was machine gunning mages and other low armour characters... He was nerfed.

    I do not see any reason to pull this 'oh, people want to abuse Greenskins'.

    I like that Greenskins have a tool like that, but I don't like the range, wom cost or cooldown... A lot of magic missiles are too cost effective at the moment.

    Fireball is right up there. Hey, you can have a flying caster and dodge all artillery shots and kill all artillery pieces with just 5 wom? Sure, that's a lot of fun.
  • PippingtonPippington Posts: 2,021Registered Users
    This feels to me like just another re-run of the same problem that has been in the game from day 1 - that lords and heroes on big, powerful, mobile monsters are (mostly) vastly better than lords on light mounts or on foot, and that tools that are effective counters to the Malekiths and Blood Dragon Lords of the meta (which can otherwise bully factions like GS pretty mercilessly) end up being brutally OP vs targets with less armour and smaller HP pools. Tabletop had rules that made small characters much harder to actually target than big monsters, and I think Total War could dearly use something similar.


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  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,365Registered Users

    OrkLads said:

    Take warzagh and net her, than shoot her to pieces.

    Wurrzag being the only (very) limited counterplay to flyers is bs. Vindictive glare is mostly fine (maybe a damage tweak is needed, not an accuracy one) and gives the GS another tool against flying single entities.

    Wurrzag is already extremely dominant in the GS meta, I see no good reason to nerf mostly fine spells that allow for more varied gameplay. Like I said, taking Alarielle or a caster in the air is not a god given right.

    Flying caster Lords are already the most optimum lord choice 99% of the time, they should need to be more careful and vindictive glare helps with that.
    I was waitng for someone to say that lol, so its not ok that warzahg is the only viable counter to flying allariel but its ok that allariel on eagle is the only viable counter to GS waghh? How hypocritical
    Considering you almost exclusively take flying lords and flying casters consider me a little suspect of your motives behind limiting counterplay to them. Flying lords and flying casters have way too many advantages and are way too dominant in the meta. This is detrimental to gameplay and should be changed.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,724Registered Users
    edited January 9
    OrkLads said:

    OrkLads said:

    Take warzagh and net her, than shoot her to pieces.

    Wurrzag being the only (very) limited counterplay to flyers is bs. Vindictive glare is mostly fine (maybe a damage tweak is needed, not an accuracy one) and gives the GS another tool against flying single entities.

    Wurrzag is already extremely dominant in the GS meta, I see no good reason to nerf mostly fine spells that allow for more varied gameplay. Like I said, taking Alarielle or a caster in the air is not a god given right.

    Flying caster Lords are already the most optimum lord choice 99% of the time, they should need to be more careful and vindictive glare helps with that.
    I was waitng for someone to say that lol, so its not ok that warzahg is the only viable counter to flying allariel but its ok that allariel on eagle is the only viable counter to GS waghh? How hypocritical
    Considering you almost exclusively take flying lords and flying casters consider me a little suspect of your motives behind limiting counterplay to them. Flying lords and flying casters have way too many advantages and are way too dominant in the meta. This is detrimental to gameplay and should be changed.
    I dont have a problem beating GS, i posted the video after using GS to abuse other factions mages namely on horses. Yes yes your prejudges is wrong if you think 10WOM should 1 shot lords than ok so be it, i dont think it should i prefer some balance, perhaps the damage doesn't need to be nerfed but just the projectile slower so it can be dodged unless its close range.

    Also i don't even see how this is a counter to flying lords or casters at all? its a counter to casters and lord son horses, as flying lords have more HP than horse lords. It take like 5 shots to kill malekith but 1 shot to kill teclis on horse, 2 or 3 to kill allariel on eagle, 1 on horse, so how exactly is it a counter to flying units?

    And GS are infect not strong vs flying monsters/mages, its not like they should be strong vs those, they need some weak points and still got tools to deal with those anyway (missile cav/missiles/net/doomdiver)
  • JoukeSeinstraJoukeSeinstra Posts: 275Registered Users
    I didn't knew about vindictive glare until I saw a video of Heir Of Carthage commentating a casual tournament. Skaven and Greenskins seem like quite the powerhouse in small funds. I sort of enjoy seeing those little sneaky stabbin goblins utterly destroying Legendary Lords.

    If anyone is going to make an argument about balance they ought to have a consistent definition that holds true stating the exact nature of what balance is. If you say, but it's too cheap, or, no one else gets that value, or, but according to the lore. These are merely self referencing statements. To take the idea of balance literally, say, symmetrically, the game would be rather dull.

    Perhaps now you're pressured to bring a lord on foot against Greenskins and risk facing off against Grimgor. I rarely see greenskins being played, now they got an incredible tool see some large funds play and players want to nerf it? I suppose meat is back on the menu.

    If you'll excuse me, I have a vindictive date with Lady Alarielle.
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