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Vindictive glare far too cost effective?

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  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 825Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    I don't think that this rationale of 'a unit has been poor for x amount of time - it needs to be OP now for X amount of time to compensate' make any sense.

    I agree. But the context of it being argued that it is op is predominantly the effect it has on unarmoured flying casters (and mounted casters) who have basically been the dominant caster/lord choice in the meta since this games inception.

    In my mind, steps that are taken to limit the dominance of this type of unit are a strong step in the right direction. Maybe down the line CA will go too far and tools for dealing with this type of unit will need to be weakened but we are a long, long way off from that.

    If we want to talk about overpowered units, let the conversation start with flying casters and then go from there.
    I asked before what other 400 gold unit can dish out 4k damage in a few seconds? What other spells can dish out 4k damage at 16 WOM cost?

    It seems to me that what you're effectively saying is that balance is irrelevant, making sense is irrelevant, being consistent with everything else is irrelevant, as long as it breaks the current meta.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,424Registered Users
    edited January 9

    OrkLads said:

    I don't think that this rationale of 'a unit has been poor for x amount of time - it needs to be OP now for X amount of time to compensate' make any sense.

    I agree. But the context of it being argued that it is op is predominantly the effect it has on unarmoured flying casters (and mounted casters) who have basically been the dominant caster/lord choice in the meta since this games inception.

    In my mind, steps that are taken to limit the dominance of this type of unit are a strong step in the right direction. Maybe down the line CA will go too far and tools for dealing with this type of unit will need to be weakened but we are a long, long way off from that.

    If we want to talk about overpowered units, let the conversation start with flying casters and then go from there.
    I asked before what other 400 gold unit can dish out 4k damage in a few seconds? What other spells can dish out 4k damage at 16 WOM cost?

    It seems to me that what you're effectively saying is that balance is irrelevant, making sense is irrelevant, being consistent with everything else is irrelevant, as long as it breaks the current meta.
    Healing spells on cheap mages can easily net that much healing for comparable wom.

    But sure leave the spell alone and let’s just make goblin shamans cost 800 points (snark alert).
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,698Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    OrkLads said:

    I don't think that this rationale of 'a unit has been poor for x amount of time - it needs to be OP now for X amount of time to compensate' make any sense.

    I agree. But the context of it being argued that it is op is predominantly the effect it has on unarmoured flying casters (and mounted casters) who have basically been the dominant caster/lord choice in the meta since this games inception.

    In my mind, steps that are taken to limit the dominance of this type of unit are a strong step in the right direction. Maybe down the line CA will go too far and tools for dealing with this type of unit will need to be weakened but we are a long, long way off from that.

    If we want to talk about overpowered units, let the conversation start with flying casters and then go from there.
    I asked before what other 400 gold unit can dish out 4k damage in a few seconds? What other spells can dish out 4k damage at 16 WOM cost?

    It seems to me that what you're effectively saying is that balance is irrelevant, making sense is irrelevant, being consistent with everything else is irrelevant, as long as it breaks the current meta.
    Healing spells on cheap mages can easily net that much healing for comparable wom.

    But sure leave the spell alone and let’s just make goblin shamans cost 800 points.
    Cost is not the main issue, the alpha strike is, especially from 250 meters and stalk. Even double star dragon plus tempest for like 5500 gold was nerfed for that exact reason. 3000-4000 alpha strikes without counter play are not wanted in this game. This one available for only 456 gold, with artillery range, stalk and vanguard just makes it extra ridiculous. Anyone defending this really needs to snap out of it.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,424Registered Users
    edited January 10

    eumaies said:

    OrkLads said:

    I don't think that this rationale of 'a unit has been poor for x amount of time - it needs to be OP now for X amount of time to compensate' make any sense.

    I agree. But the context of it being argued that it is op is predominantly the effect it has on unarmoured flying casters (and mounted casters) who have basically been the dominant caster/lord choice in the meta since this games inception.

    In my mind, steps that are taken to limit the dominance of this type of unit are a strong step in the right direction. Maybe down the line CA will go too far and tools for dealing with this type of unit will need to be weakened but we are a long, long way off from that.

    If we want to talk about overpowered units, let the conversation start with flying casters and then go from there.
    I asked before what other 400 gold unit can dish out 4k damage in a few seconds? What other spells can dish out 4k damage at 16 WOM cost?

    It seems to me that what you're effectively saying is that balance is irrelevant, making sense is irrelevant, being consistent with everything else is irrelevant, as long as it breaks the current meta.
    Healing spells on cheap mages can easily net that much healing for comparable wom.

    But sure leave the spell alone and let’s just make goblin shamans cost 800 points.
    Cost is not the main issue, the alpha strike is, especially from 250 meters and stalk. Even double star dragon plus tempest for like 5500 gold was nerfed for that exact reason. 3000-4000 alpha strikes without counter play are not wanted in this game. This one available for only 456 gold, with artillery range, stalk and vanguard just makes it extra ridiculous. Anyone defending this really needs to snap out of it.
    Almost everyone you’re debating with including me has said it’s ok if they reduce the non AP damage at least a little bit.

    The title of this discussion and many commentators look to take it beyond that which I and others vigorously oppose.

    The counter play is play cautious. The counter play is incredibly reasonable. And hunting goblin mages is incredibly easy which is why they cost so little.

    Also, I was responding to his comment, not to yours.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    so play cautious = don't bring a mage? Because currently that might as well be the case vs this spell and with mages you need to take calculated risks. A mage sitting in a forest on the other side of the map is a wasted 1000g unless it's a VC WoM battery.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,378Registered Users

    OrkLads said:

    I don't think that this rationale of 'a unit has been poor for x amount of time - it needs to be OP now for X amount of time to compensate' make any sense.

    I agree. But the context of it being argued that it is op is predominantly the effect it has on unarmoured flying casters (and mounted casters) who have basically been the dominant caster/lord choice in the meta since this games inception.

    In my mind, steps that are taken to limit the dominance of this type of unit are a strong step in the right direction. Maybe down the line CA will go too far and tools for dealing with this type of unit will need to be weakened but we are a long, long way off from that.

    If we want to talk about overpowered units, let the conversation start with flying casters and then go from there.
    I asked before what other 400 gold unit can dish out 4k damage in a few seconds? What other spells can dish out 4k damage at 16 WOM cost?

    It seems to me that what you're effectively saying is that balance is irrelevant, making sense is irrelevant, being consistent with everything else is irrelevant, as long as it breaks the current meta.
    That isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.

    1. You're exaggerating the damage.
    2. Even accepting your exaggerated damage output, once again contextual information is being dismissed despite being very relevant. Can it do 4k to Chosen? No. Can it do 4k to Reiksguard? No. Can it do 4k to Waywatchers? No. So what can it do 4k damage to? Single entity squishy units with heightened effectiveness against flyers. The only meta this breaks is making flying casters need to be a but more cautious before doing whatever they please. The amount of protesting against more effective counterplay to arguably the most op units in the game (magic is very strong, flyer single entities are untouchable for most ground units and can outpace most flying units, huge mobility + massive potential defensive and offensive options = profit) and then accusing anyone who is not that thrilled about the flying caster meta as being uninterested in balance and not making sense is just childish.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,698Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    OrkLads said:

    I don't think that this rationale of 'a unit has been poor for x amount of time - it needs to be OP now for X amount of time to compensate' make any sense.

    I agree. But the context of it being argued that it is op is predominantly the effect it has on unarmoured flying casters (and mounted casters) who have basically been the dominant caster/lord choice in the meta since this games inception.

    In my mind, steps that are taken to limit the dominance of this type of unit are a strong step in the right direction. Maybe down the line CA will go too far and tools for dealing with this type of unit will need to be weakened but we are a long, long way off from that.

    If we want to talk about overpowered units, let the conversation start with flying casters and then go from there.
    I asked before what other 400 gold unit can dish out 4k damage in a few seconds? What other spells can dish out 4k damage at 16 WOM cost?

    It seems to me that what you're effectively saying is that balance is irrelevant, making sense is irrelevant, being consistent with everything else is irrelevant, as long as it breaks the current meta.
    Healing spells on cheap mages can easily net that much healing for comparable wom.

    But sure leave the spell alone and let’s just make goblin shamans cost 800 points.
    Cost is not the main issue, the alpha strike is, especially from 250 meters and stalk. Even double star dragon plus tempest for like 5500 gold was nerfed for that exact reason. 3000-4000 alpha strikes without counter play are not wanted in this game. This one available for only 456 gold, with artillery range, stalk and vanguard just makes it extra ridiculous. Anyone defending this really needs to snap out of it.
    Almost everyone you’re debating with including me has said it’s ok if they reduce the non AP damage at least a little bit.

    The title of this discussion and many commentators look to take it beyond that which I and others vigorously oppose.

    The counter play is play cautious. The counter play is incredibly reasonable. And hunting goblin mages is incredibly easy which is why they cost so little.
    Yeah I am sorry if I sort of put you in the same boat as some others in this thread, because some people seriously defend this to be left alone. I am... let's say really surprised there is a discussion at all. :wink: It's not my topic either, I sort of just got pulled in.... but I have been waiting for the topic to pop up since I experienced this the first time in a friendly game.

    Caution and scouting is fine, but even so it's a bit excessive with 250 meters. Other comparable "traps" would be 190 meter WW, but then the Glady is not stalked and only has 100 meters range. She can sit in a tree, but in any case you have some rather strong hints. WW are also expensive and such a trap for 4400 gold + glady you'll also have a very good idea that you're up against by looking what else is on the field if you can see it. Otherwise there's not much comparable stuff you need to scout really. Warpgale and 3x WLC are all visible and short range net and 4k gold. Light mage + bowshapti/bonegiant are visible and short range net and 4k gold. Teclis + SoA are visible and short range net and 4k gold. Etc. And most of these other traps leave some time for counter-spells at least, even if it's not much, but it's not instant. But it's in the same league as a single shaman making one overcast, then refresh skill, then another overcast. That's more OK than two simultaneous long range nukes from stalk.

    So, it's just OP on so many levels, it's kind of funny how they managed to put that in the game without a second thought...
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,424Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    OrkLads said:

    I don't think that this rationale of 'a unit has been poor for x amount of time - it needs to be OP now for X amount of time to compensate' make any sense.

    I agree. But the context of it being argued that it is op is predominantly the effect it has on unarmoured flying casters (and mounted casters) who have basically been the dominant caster/lord choice in the meta since this games inception.

    In my mind, steps that are taken to limit the dominance of this type of unit are a strong step in the right direction. Maybe down the line CA will go too far and tools for dealing with this type of unit will need to be weakened but we are a long, long way off from that.

    If we want to talk about overpowered units, let the conversation start with flying casters and then go from there.
    I asked before what other 400 gold unit can dish out 4k damage in a few seconds? What other spells can dish out 4k damage at 16 WOM cost?

    It seems to me that what you're effectively saying is that balance is irrelevant, making sense is irrelevant, being consistent with everything else is irrelevant, as long as it breaks the current meta.
    Healing spells on cheap mages can easily net that much healing for comparable wom.

    But sure leave the spell alone and let’s just make goblin shamans cost 800 points.
    Cost is not the main issue, the alpha strike is, especially from 250 meters and stalk. Even double star dragon plus tempest for like 5500 gold was nerfed for that exact reason. 3000-4000 alpha strikes without counter play are not wanted in this game. This one available for only 456 gold, with artillery range, stalk and vanguard just makes it extra ridiculous. Anyone defending this really needs to snap out of it.
    Almost everyone you’re debating with including me has said it’s ok if they reduce the non AP damage at least a little bit.

    The title of this discussion and many commentators look to take it beyond that which I and others vigorously oppose.

    The counter play is play cautious. The counter play is incredibly reasonable. And hunting goblin mages is incredibly easy which is why they cost so little.
    Yeah I am sorry if I sort of put you in the same boat as some others in this thread, because some people seriously defend this to be left alone. I am... let's say really surprised there is a discussion at all. :wink: It's not my topic either, I sort of just got pulled in.... but I have been waiting for the topic to pop up since I experienced this the first time in a friendly game.

    Caution and scouting is fine, but even so it's a bit excessive with 250 meters. Other comparable "traps" would be 190 meter WW, but then the Glady is not stalked and only has 100 meters range. She can sit in a tree, but in any case you have some rather strong hints. WW are also expensive and such a trap for 4400 gold + glady you'll also have a very good idea that you're up against by looking what else is on the field if you can see it. Otherwise there's not much comparable stuff you need to scout really. Warpgale and 3x WLC are all visible and short range net and 4k gold. Light mage + bowshapti/bonegiant are visible and short range net and 4k gold. Teclis + SoA are visible and short range net and 4k gold. Etc. And most of these other traps leave some time for counter-spells at least, even if it's not much, but it's not instant. But it's in the same league as a single shaman making one overcast, then refresh skill, then another overcast. That's more OK than two simultaneous long range nukes from stalk.

    So, it's just OP on so many levels, it's kind of funny how they managed to put that in the game without a second thought...
    I agree it's a very strong counter to flying low armor lords... 3 overcasts and 3900 damage to kill them off. Vs lords on horses i think there's more counterplay since you don't have to stick yourself out there or alone without any units in the way.

    I don't mind if they lower it to 1000hp damage rather than 1300 for a direct overcast hit on a low armor flying target. But really i just don't mind there being a greenskin counter unit to flying mages and I don't want them to fundamentally change it. Gobo shamans can be hunted down. They don't even have mounts and they get blown over by a stiff breeze. If the result is don't take a flying lord mage or if you do play very cautious until you've identified any goblin mages on foot and have a plan to hunt them down, that doesn't seem all that bad to me.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,424Registered Users
    edited January 10
    Green0 said:

    so play cautious = don't bring a mage? Because currently that might as well be the case vs this spell and with mages you need to take calculated risks. A mage sitting in a forest on the other side of the map is a wasted 1000g unless it's a VC WoM battery.

    I admit I was feeling a bit snarky, but the goblin mage(s) need to spend 24(27?) winds of magic to get three shots and kill your mage, assuming you use none of your winds of magic on healing. If your mage must fly, he might die if you don't find and avoid or neutralize the goblin mage who is slow and hard to protect and can't catch you if you avoid him. That's not an insane tradeoff. Maybe it should take 4 shots and additinal WoM to do that? Sure I can live with that, but I don't think fundamental change is warranted.

    if your mage is on a horse, maybe hide inside or behind a unit of cavalry?
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    People say its a problem on goblin hero mage, i use it on 95 speed goblin lord mage on wolf, you get a super cheap lord with waghh, amazing mobility and spell that can delete other lords.
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 825Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    OrkLads said:

    I don't think that this rationale of 'a unit has been poor for x amount of time - it needs to be OP now for X amount of time to compensate' make any sense.

    I agree. But the context of it being argued that it is op is predominantly the effect it has on unarmoured flying casters (and mounted casters) who have basically been the dominant caster/lord choice in the meta since this games inception.

    In my mind, steps that are taken to limit the dominance of this type of unit are a strong step in the right direction. Maybe down the line CA will go too far and tools for dealing with this type of unit will need to be weakened but we are a long, long way off from that.

    If we want to talk about overpowered units, let the conversation start with flying casters and then go from there.
    I asked before what other 400 gold unit can dish out 4k damage in a few seconds? What other spells can dish out 4k damage at 16 WOM cost?

    It seems to me that what you're effectively saying is that balance is irrelevant, making sense is irrelevant, being consistent with everything else is irrelevant, as long as it breaks the current meta.
    Healing spells on cheap mages can easily net that much healing for comparable wom.

    But sure leave the spell alone and let’s just make goblin shamans cost 800 points (snark alert).
    I'm not arguing that night gobbie shamans should cost 800. I'm arguing that they should not have a spell that turns them into crazy laser cannon ninja assassins that can just about two-shot a number of characters.

    If the spell was tweaked a bit to be less crazy versus unarmoured large and do a little bit more versus armoured and armoured large then there's no problem. Then it's just a pretty good spell that can mule-kick you in the rear if you're not paying attention and that's okay, even from a cheap as dirt gobbie shaman.



  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 825Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    OrkLads said:

    I don't think that this rationale of 'a unit has been poor for x amount of time - it needs to be OP now for X amount of time to compensate' make any sense.

    I agree. But the context of it being argued that it is op is predominantly the effect it has on unarmoured flying casters (and mounted casters) who have basically been the dominant caster/lord choice in the meta since this games inception.

    In my mind, steps that are taken to limit the dominance of this type of unit are a strong step in the right direction. Maybe down the line CA will go too far and tools for dealing with this type of unit will need to be weakened but we are a long, long way off from that.

    If we want to talk about overpowered units, let the conversation start with flying casters and then go from there.
    I asked before what other 400 gold unit can dish out 4k damage in a few seconds? What other spells can dish out 4k damage at 16 WOM cost?

    It seems to me that what you're effectively saying is that balance is irrelevant, making sense is irrelevant, being consistent with everything else is irrelevant, as long as it breaks the current meta.
    That isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.

    1. You're exaggerating the damage.
    2. Even accepting your exaggerated damage output, once again contextual information is being dismissed despite being very relevant. Can it do 4k to Chosen? No. Can it do 4k to Reiksguard? No. Can it do 4k to Waywatchers? No. So what can it do 4k damage to? Single entity squishy units with heightened effectiveness against flyers. The only meta this breaks is making flying casters need to be a but more cautious before doing whatever they please. The amount of protesting against more effective counterplay to arguably the most op units in the game (magic is very strong, flyer single entities are untouchable for most ground units and can outpace most flying units, huge mobility + massive potential defensive and offensive options = profit) and then accusing anyone who is not that thrilled about the flying caster meta as being uninterested in balance and not making sense is just childish.
    I don't believe I'm exaggerating the damage at all. AFAIK, glare does about 2k damage before armour mitigation and resistances, assuming large target with all projectiles hitting. Is that wrong?

    No, it won't do that much damage versus the wrong targets. So what? That's like arguing that if you cast IoN on a fully healed target then it won't heal much, thus it isn't overpowered at all. The issue with glare isn't that it is crapping on infantry and cavalry, it's that it's crapping too much on squishy large single entities, so arguing that this is not a problem because of how it won't crap on infantry and cavalry makes absolutely no sense to me. But maybe I'm overlooking something?

    I asked what other spells do this much focused damage per WOM. I asked what other units can deal this much damage towards a single target. You declined to answer either question. I assume that means you're also drawing a blank on matching spells and units, which would indicate that Glare is not consistent with everything else in the game.

    And frankly, what is your justification for not changing the spell? That flying units are too strong and therefore crazy damage against squishy flyers is totally okay? Does that realy not sound like "the ends justify the means" to you?

    Finally, as far as the meta is concerned, better dakka strikes me as a much more Orcish answer to flyers than turning a gobbie shaman spell into borderline murder when cast on squishy large single entity units. That and a stronger ground game.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,424Registered Users

    People say its a problem on goblin hero mage, i use it on 95 speed goblin lord mage on wolf, you get a super cheap lord with waghh, amazing mobility and spell that can delete other lords.

    Yup, except for the delete part. Injure squishy lords sure. But yeah he's a great lord, but he doesn't stalk and he does have challenges surviving against any determined gank.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,424Registered Users

    OrkLads said:

    OrkLads said:

    I don't think that this rationale of 'a unit has been poor for x amount of time - it needs to be OP now for X amount of time to compensate' make any sense.

    I agree. But the context of it being argued that it is op is predominantly the effect it has on unarmoured flying casters (and mounted casters) who have basically been the dominant caster/lord choice in the meta since this games inception.

    In my mind, steps that are taken to limit the dominance of this type of unit are a strong step in the right direction. Maybe down the line CA will go too far and tools for dealing with this type of unit will need to be weakened but we are a long, long way off from that.

    If we want to talk about overpowered units, let the conversation start with flying casters and then go from there.
    I asked before what other 400 gold unit can dish out 4k damage in a few seconds? What other spells can dish out 4k damage at 16 WOM cost?

    It seems to me that what you're effectively saying is that balance is irrelevant, making sense is irrelevant, being consistent with everything else is irrelevant, as long as it breaks the current meta.
    That isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.

    1. You're exaggerating the damage.
    2. Even accepting your exaggerated damage output, once again contextual information is being dismissed despite being very relevant. Can it do 4k to Chosen? No. Can it do 4k to Reiksguard? No. Can it do 4k to Waywatchers? No. So what can it do 4k damage to? Single entity squishy units with heightened effectiveness against flyers. The only meta this breaks is making flying casters need to be a but more cautious before doing whatever they please. The amount of protesting against more effective counterplay to arguably the most op units in the game (magic is very strong, flyer single entities are untouchable for most ground units and can outpace most flying units, huge mobility + massive potential defensive and offensive options = profit) and then accusing anyone who is not that thrilled about the flying caster meta as being uninterested in balance and not making sense is just childish.
    I don't believe I'm exaggerating the damage at all. AFAIK, glare does about 2k damage before armour mitigation and resistances, assuming large target with all projectiles hitting. Is that wrong?

    No, it won't do that much damage versus the wrong targets. So what? That's like arguing that if you cast IoN on a fully healed target then it won't heal much, thus it isn't overpowered at all. The issue with glare isn't that it is crapping on infantry and cavalry, it's that it's crapping too much on squishy large single entities, so arguing that this is not a problem because of how it won't crap on infantry and cavalry makes absolutely no sense to me. But maybe I'm overlooking something?

    I asked what other spells do this much focused damage per WOM. I asked what other units can deal this much damage towards a single target. You declined to answer either question. I assume that means you're also drawing a blank on matching spells and units, which would indicate that Glare is not consistent with everything else in the game.

    And frankly, what is your justification for not changing the spell? That flying units are too strong and therefore crazy damage against squishy flyers is totally okay? Does that realy not sound like "the ends justify the means" to you?

    Finally, as far as the meta is concerned, better dakka strikes me as a much more Orcish answer to flyers than turning a gobbie shaman spell into borderline murder when cast on squishy large single entity units. That and a stronger ground game.
    Whats so special about healing a single target? The fact that AOE heals can heal that much for similar WoM cost has a huge effect on balance, yet a damage spell can't be that good?

    The damage in my tests vs a 30 armor allarielle in the sky is 1300. That's overcast for 8 WoM. It's on the high side, but I don't think 1000 would be unreasonable. The strategic implications are similar either way. Flying units are not helpless and I don't think people are going to completely stop taking allarielle on an eagle just because of this spell, even though she costs alot an is vulnerable to it. The reason they won't stop is because there is counter play - avoid and/or gank the enemy mage(s). Flying lords have that luxury to choose how much danger they get exposed to.


  • ystyst Posts: 6,059Registered Users
    Ppl should accept the fact this spell isnt going anywhere. And it will forever be more effective than same class missile due to the simple fact, they r anti large, high dmg low ap spell. And most importantly they r absolutely ineffective against everything else other then designated low armour large. Same story with tempest anyway, would never ever be so powerful if they can hit land
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  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    yst said:

    Ppl should accept the fact this spell isnt going anywhere. And it will forever be more effective than same class missile due to the simple fact, they r anti large, high dmg low ap spell. And most importantly they r absolutely ineffective against everything else other then designated low armour large. Same story with tempest anyway, would never ever be so powerful if they can hit land

    the spell also instagibs artillery pieces. Combo it with rusty arrers and a lot of ok armor large gets gimped too.
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,424Registered Users
    edited January 10
    yst said:

    Ppl should accept the fact this spell isnt going anywhere. And it will forever be more effective than same class missile due to the simple fact, they r anti large, high dmg low ap spell. And most importantly they r absolutely ineffective against everything else other then designated low armour large. Same story with tempest anyway, would never ever be so powerful if they can hit land

    I think what they got right with the spell and what shouldn’t change is it now usually hits its target. So it’s actually designed as intended now.

    You can still make the non AP damage less excessive or play around with wok or cooldown and not lose its essential functionality. I’m cool with those kinds of changes to make it take a little more work to get its max benefits.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    Making it visible would be a good start to balancing it.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,059Registered Users
    ^ yea they got the spell design perfect. Only optimisation left is simply double checking per mana dmg, whether the dmg r in line, if the anti large is what been envisaged etc.

    Very pleased with the recent spell changes. If this keeps going we will see buff spells, debuff spells finally be viable. Still lotsof garbage spells, take death and life for example, only leech, bjuna, earth and regrowth r viable. 4/12 viable with 8 garbages
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    yst said:

    ^ yea they got the spell design perfect. Only optimisation left is simply double checking per mana dmg, whether the dmg r in line, if the anti large is what been envisaged etc.

    Very pleased with the recent spell changes. If this keeps going we will see buff spells, debuff spells finally be viable. Still lotsof garbage spells, take death and life for example, only leech, bjuna, earth and regrowth r viable. 4/12 viable with 8 garbages

    i think sheild of thorns/call of woods/dewlers below are viable in life though call of woods could use WOM cost reduction, but felsh to stone is MEH needs to be AOE and +2 WOM. than it be great or much cheaper to bring into battle.

    For death i think they all viable but sun has problem of being a vortex and others are expensive to bring to battle, their duration could use buff but what they do is quite reasonable.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users

    People say its a problem on goblin hero mage, i use it on 95 speed goblin lord mage on wolf, you get a super cheap lord with waghh, amazing mobility and spell that can delete other lords.

    And huge problems with WAAGH! recharging due to risks of being in melee for such Lord. Would say that it is significant trade off.
    Main problem of goblin hero mage are that he is extremely short for magic missiles cast. Anything but flying targets and you have high chance of you missiles getting blocked by earth/troops/obstacles. It is quite dangerous thing for squishy unarmored Large target. But not game breaking and it is move GS into more balanced competitive tier as a faction.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    People say its a problem on goblin hero mage, i use it on 95 speed goblin lord mage on wolf, you get a super cheap lord with waghh, amazing mobility and spell that can delete other lords.

    And huge problems with WAAGH! recharging due to risks of being in melee for such Lord. Would say that it is significant trade off.
    Main problem of goblin hero mage are that he is extremely short for magic missiles cast. Anything but flying targets and you have high chance of you missiles getting blocked by earth/troops/obstacles. It is quite dangerous thing for squishy unarmored Large target. But not game breaking and it is move GS into more balanced competitive tier as a faction.
    Dont really agree, it could be true for grimgor but compared to others you just unlikely to get other lords into combat the same way, at least with 95 speed you recharge it by chasing fleeing units off the board, so its very safe way to recharge it.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Plus it's not like you usually need a second waagh either. I find that in the majority of games you win or lose on the first one.
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  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users


    Dont really agree, it could be true for grimgor but compared to others you just unlikely to get other lords into combat the same way, at least with 95 speed you recharge it by chasing fleeing units off the board, so its very safe way to recharge it.

    You know that i play faction that do not have fleeing units :). On a more serios note. I tend to find this problematic despite all his pluses.
    Wyvern2 said:

    Plus it's not like you usually need a second waagh either. I find that in the majority of games you win or lose on the first one.

    Even for first WAAGH sometimes you need recharge.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 917Registered Users
    Arcane unforging probably shouldn't effect waagh in general. It would be like delaying the activation of murderous prowess. IMO faction specific mechanics should be immune to the ability recharge debuff.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    Cukie251 said:

    Arcane unforging probably shouldn't effect waagh in general. It would be like delaying the activation of murderous prowess. IMO faction specific mechanics should be immune to the ability recharge debuff.

    murderous prowess is affected by kill count not by cooldown though.
    tank3487 said:


    Dont really agree, it could be true for grimgor but compared to others you just unlikely to get other lords into combat the same way, at least with 95 speed you recharge it by chasing fleeing units off the board, so its very safe way to recharge it.

    You know that i play faction that do not have fleeing units :). On a more serios note. I tend to find this problematic despite all his pluses.
    Wyvern2 said:

    Plus it's not like you usually need a second waagh either. I find that in the majority of games you win or lose on the first one.

    Even for first WAAGH sometimes you need recharge.
    Well he might not be the best choice vs VC but vs other factions quite a good pick.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 917Registered Users

    Cukie251 said:

    Arcane unforging probably shouldn't effect waagh in general. It would be like delaying the activation of murderous prowess. IMO faction specific mechanics should be immune to the ability recharge debuff.

    murderous prowess is affected by kill count not by cooldown though.
    tank3487 said:


    Dont really agree, it could be true for grimgor but compared to others you just unlikely to get other lords into combat the same way, at least with 95 speed you recharge it by chasing fleeing units off the board, so its very safe way to recharge it.

    You know that i play faction that do not have fleeing units :). On a more serios note. I tend to find this problematic despite all his pluses.
    Wyvern2 said:

    Plus it's not like you usually need a second waagh either. I find that in the majority of games you win or lose on the first one.

    Even for first WAAGH sometimes you need recharge.
    Well he might not be the best choice vs VC but vs other factions quite a good pick.
    True, but my point is that those 2 mechanics are on the same level of importance - army wide critical buffs. IMO having stuff like that disabled for the most critical part of the game (the initial charge) by an arcane unforging is a little too unforgiving.
  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 117Registered Users
    As a GS main, i agree with Vindictive glare needs to be toned down slightly.

    I think there are a few options,

    Reduce range

    Increase WOM cost

    Increase cool down

    reduce damage

    reduce Accuracy

    But if any option is chosen, i think it should only be a minor nerf, and fireball should get the same treatment.
    Honestly, i think its fine Vs small flying targets.
    i think its mages on foot that it OP against.
    If you bring a mage on foot, obviously it has its own risks, where as a wizard on a eagle is unkillable for GS unless it lands. So i would be ok with a significant reduction in effectiveness VS foot.
    maybe make its trajectory flatter?

    The majority of people complaining about Vindictive glare, are players used to Bringing larry vs GS and being untouchable.

    The amount of times recently i have been called caner in QB for bringing this spell....and 2 shooting larry bravely rushing forward to cancel the WAAAGH

    Well you know what, some match ups limit you as to what lord you can bring and how you can play.
    If i had it my way, i would bring Grimgor every match.
    But he is a joke, so i cant.
    Start looking at the maps terrain, start thinking a bit deeper then a flying life mage on a eagle.

    If you think GS are top tier, you are having a laugh, even with this spell.

    To summarise,

    Very minor nerf required.
    Stop bringing larry on a eagle Vs GS

    Cheers




  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    fix visibility so you can see it coming is first step, i literally cannot see it 90% of the time both when i cast it and when used against me.

    Also GS have same tools that other factions have at dealing with mages in the air, the only tool they lack is flying units to fight them, but thats no different than majority of other rosters.

    Things like missile cav/archers/net are tools that can be used vs eagle mages.

    Regardless i dont mind its dmg vs eagle mounted mages though, im more concerned on foot and horse mages being 1 shoted, perhaps just up the AP but reduce normal dmg, would that help?
  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 117Registered Users
    You cannot kill a larry on a eagle with GS archers Fact

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