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Vindictive glare far too cost effective?

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  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 117Registered Users
    And she can quite easily solo Azhag or an Orc warboss on a wyvern
    Remind me what other tools i have?
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
    edited January 10
    Slade_X said:

    And she can quite easily solo Azhag or an Orc warboss on a wyvern
    Remind me what other tools i have?

    No one have said that it should be removed or made useless, on the contrary i think we can agree that GS needs VG. Nothing in the OP or title suggests that, if some people missunderstand it. The question at hand, however, is whether it should be toned down a notch in terms of WOM-cost, dmg or range or not.

    PS:

    I've faced you several times in QB and i think your a worthy opponent and genuinely nice guy.
    Post edited by Cirdan on
  • y4g3ry4g3r Posts: 182Registered Users
    The title and many of the responses are it is "far too cost effective" and are calling for major nerfs. The people defending it are calling for reason, not a nerf bat.

    A wom increase, a reduction in its non-ap damage, a reduction in its range/accuracy at max range.

    One of these can work, not all of them.

    As it stands, gs are open to abuse from flying units, unless you bring Wurrzhag or a goblin mage. Gs archers don't cut it, rusty arrerz don't cut it. VG and gaze of mork are the only reliable counters, and the biggest argument with any credibility is I can't see them because stalk, an ability which is counter by any chaff unit or basic safe tactics.
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
    edited January 10
    y4g3r said:

    The title and many of the responses are it is "far too cost effective" and are calling for major nerfs. The people defending it are calling for reason, not a nerf bat.

    A wom increase, a reduction in its non-ap damage, a reduction in its range/accuracy at max range.

    One of these can work, not all of them.

    As it stands, gs are open to abuse from flying units, unless you bring Wurrzhag or a goblin mage. Gs archers don't cut it, rusty arrerz don't cut it. VG and gaze of mork are the only reliable counters, and the biggest argument with any credibility is I can't see them because stalk, an ability which is counter by any chaff unit or basic safe tactics.

    If you actually bother to read the title you can see that it is a question and not a statement. And in the OP i write that it seemed to be too cost effective as of now and i haven't called for a major nerf, while i think it really needs tweaking in some way. Pls don't try to interpret my tread in a way that suits your needs.

    Also i see many commentors defending it with tooth and nail without seeing any need for change, i'm not sure i can call that "reason". Also some commentors seems to imply that it is abuse to even bring a flying lord, which is laughable. Reason is that it needs a tweak considering it's more effective than any comparable spell in terms of cost, WOM-cost, range, accuracy and damage, which several good players who main GS even admits.

    In what extent it should be tweaked i'll leave unsaid though.
  • konosmgrkonosmgr Posts: 161Registered Users
    edited January 10
    The thing is, vindictive glare isn't only very good vs medium armoured flying units which gs has trouble dealing with. (Although so do some other factions like chaos, anyways effigy of da git works fine and so does a spider which can babysit your lord and also shoots poison arrows at fliers). But VG is also very cost effective vs basically every competitive non-foot lord in the game apart from VP and VC ones, really good against chariots and single entity monsters such as the giant, and to top it off, you can't even dodge the bloody thing, it has the best homing ability in the game by a decent margin and can also hit targets that are behind a hill. For reference, it does about 1.9k damage to a giant, 1.5k damage to a manticore, 1.1k damage to a shaggoth and 1k damage to gorebeast charriots. It is that good that in most match ups you don't even have to think about bringing a second spell, that means that you have a 228 gold stalk platform which can alpha strike the vast majority of mages(e.g for 8wom you do about 55% damage to a high elf mage on a horse, that means that with 2 night goblin shamans you can kill/shatter the enemy mage at least half of the times.). It is luminark level kind of damage and has a little bit less range, but it's basically undodgable, has stalk, is more survivable against units like kholeek/dragons and artillery, as he will get tossed around and be immune for the duration of the knockdown and also has a smaller hitbox, and to top it off you only have to commit 2% instead of 14% of your total funds in order to get the same kind of alpha strike potential.

    I editted like 5 times already but the grammar still sucks, sorry it's late time here.
    Post edited by konosmgr on
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,698Registered Users
    Slade_X said:

    As a GS main, i agree with Vindictive glare needs to be toned down slightly.

    The majority of people complaining about Vindictive glare, are players used to Bringing larry vs GS and being untouchable.

    No that's a bit condescending coming from you I think. It's more like everyone playing this game is used to never being general-oneshotted by anything in this game until suddenly the new shiny glare came along... doing it from 250 meters, from stalk, vanguard deployed for 456 gold.

    Just reduce the alpha strike damage, then the rest is just ordinary OP, not broken OP. That I could live with. It's still very wom efficient, reliable hit chance, long range and short cooldown with spam mushroom available.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    Slade_X said:

    You cannot kill a larry on a eagle with GS archers Fact

    Yes shes clearly immune to arrows, i forgot.
  • SpaniardSpaniard Posts: 914Registered Users
    Damage should go down a bit. Should probably go from doing 1.3K to alarielle on an eagle to 1K, instead. Keep everything else the same.

    I really would not touch accuracy. It feels good that GS have at least one reliable way to hurt these kind of fliers. Skink chief on terradons, Larry, Glady on eagle have been a nightmare for GS in my experience because arrows simply couldn't hit them.

    What bothers me though is that I see threads asking to nerf Vindictive Glare, Waagh, Wurzag, etc. But no one really is providing with a list of buffs to compensate.

    Let me explain. Take the HE example. When someone asks to nerf Star of Avelorn, you quickly see a bunch of HE players coming up with a long list of buffing suggestions for the entire roster, which can be understandable.

    Same with WE. Nerfing Waywatchers is ok, but only after half the roster has been buffed.

    Life for the Greenskin player is tough.

    So I will go ahead and say that if Vindictive Glare get any nerfs, I would like to see GS cavalry stats buffed. And if Waagh gets any nerfs, I would like to see Leadership buffs (from +2 to +4) in pretty much every unit of infantry, cavalry, monster and character. Moreover, I would only undertand a nerf to Wurzag if GS characters got new and more powerful mounts options.



  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Posts: 1,087Registered Users
    Spaniard said:



    What bothers me though is that I see threads asking to nerf Vindictive Glare, Waagh, Wurzag, etc. But no one really is providing with a list of buffs to compensate.

    Let me explain. Take the HE example. When someone asks to nerf Star of Avelorn, you quickly see a bunch of HE players coming up with a long list of buffing suggestions for the entire roster, which can be understandable.

    Same with WE. Nerfing Waywatchers is ok, but only after half the roster has been buffed.

    Life for the Greenskin player is tough.



    Ahahahahaha
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited January 11
    Spaniard said:


    What bothers me though is that I see threads asking to nerf Vindictive Glare, Waagh, Wurzag, etc. But no one really is providing with a list of buffs to compensate.

    Answer are quite clear. Elf players are huge majority in the forum. And guess what Lords are on flying unarmored mounts? GS players are few in numbers. I would have proposed gold cost increase for the spell itself and fix to visual effects(while testing it as GS in QB had problem with seeing missiles), so double goblin shaman builds would take a toll. Do not see so big problem in squishy Lord without protection being squished.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    I wish GS get bolt throwes added other than that seems rather balamced, maybe make waghh not be affected by cookdown stopping abilities.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Spaniard said:


    What bothers me though is that I see threads asking to nerf Vindictive Glare, Waagh, Wurzag, etc. But no one really is providing with a list of buffs to compensate.

    Answer are quite clear. Elf players are huge majority in the forum. And guess what Lords are on flying unarmored mounts? GS players are few in numbers. I would have proposed gold cost increase for the spell itself and fix to visual effects(while testing it as GS in QB had problem with seeing missiles), so double goblin shaman builds would take a toll. Do not see so big problem in squishy Lord without protection being squished.
    Its on GS players to offer the alternatives, the threads to nerf those things are not made by GS players. The threads made to nerf stuff in Elf rosters were made by those who play elves so it comes with alternatives.

    Id be very open and in support to help balance out the faction more. But its not like the faction should be without weakness.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,698Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Spaniard said:


    What bothers me though is that I see threads asking to nerf Vindictive Glare, Waagh, Wurzag, etc. But no one really is providing with a list of buffs to compensate.

    Answer are quite clear. Elf players are huge majority in the forum. And guess what Lords are on flying unarmored mounts? GS players are few in numbers. I would have proposed gold cost increase for the spell itself and fix to visual effects(while testing it as GS in QB had problem with seeing missiles), so double goblin shaman builds would take a toll. Do not see so big problem in squishy Lord without protection being squished.
    Now this I find extremely annoying, you keep trying to make this about Elves or about posters on the forums. It's not. It's about a spell that allows a faction (at this level of OP it is irrelevant what that faction is) to dish out instant alphas spikes of near 4k damage investing as little as 456 gold and 16 WoM, and you can do that vs any faction in the game, including mirror match. There is no defending that seriously, it's just broken according to the balancing norms that has been established for this game.
    Spaniard said:

    Damage should go down a bit. Should probably go from doing 1.3K to alarielle on an eagle to 1K, instead. Keep everything else the same.

    I really would not touch accuracy. It feels good that GS have at least one reliable way to hurt these kind of fliers. Skink chief on terradons, Larry, Glady on eagle have been a nightmare for GS in my experience because arrows simply couldn't hit them.

    What bothers me though is that I see threads asking to nerf Vindictive Glare, Waagh, Wurzag, etc. But no one really is providing with a list of buffs to compensate.

    Let me explain. Take the HE example. When someone asks to nerf Star of Avelorn, you quickly see a bunch of HE players coming up with a long list of buffing suggestions for the entire roster, which can be understandable.

    Same with WE. Nerfing Waywatchers is ok, but only after half the roster has been buffed.

    Life for the Greenskin player is tough.

    So I will go ahead and say that if Vindictive Glare get any nerfs, I would like to see GS cavalry stats buffed. And if Waagh gets any nerfs, I would like to see Leadership buffs (from +2 to +4) in pretty much every unit of infantry, cavalry, monster and character. Moreover, I would only undertand a nerf to Wurzag if GS characters got new and more powerful mounts options.

    I understand where you're coming from, but at the level of outlying VG is right now, as I wrote above, this needs to be seen a bit in isolation. It completely breaks the balance norm. I don't think it's a valid argument to say it's needed to protect from flying units, or that it's bad against armor or small targets. It's a **** poor band-aid, that's what it is and that doesn't justify broken stuff. We have to balance the game after maximum performance, and in this case Alarielle happens to be a good example of maximum performance against a common unit in a common faction.

    If we're not balancing vs max performance I could claim we need to buff DPs because they do badly vs GKs ignoring their brutal performance vs WE, or call for reverting the nerfs to SD breath because it does nothing to Kholek anymore, ignoring that double star dragon + tempest used to oneshot mortathi. We can't balance like that. If you need arguments, make sure it's not OP in the mirror match first vs Wurzzhag or Azhag.

    That's the reason I think the overcast needs to be changed from doubling number of missiles and BvL bonuses applied, into increased AP damage on the existing number of missiles. That will address the poor performance vs armor to some extent, adding flexibility, and it will remove the arguably broken alpha of double overcast vs low armor. Note that you could still do single cast, power item, single very short order but it requires some more gold investment and most importantly it offers some counter-play by no longer being instant from stalk. I think that's 100% reasonable.

    What GS needs in my opinion is better core tools to deal with flying, for example spear chukkas should be a thing. Sure you can dodge BTs, but not for an entire game, not under effigy or tormentor. In general I also think BTs in all factions that has them need a velocity boost. In general I also think the Waagh needs a redesign, it promotes toxic play styles vs greenskins in the current form. I don't really think the faction needs pure buffs to compensate, but more patching some weaknesses in the roster like some ways to deal with terror factions and flying. Except for the cav the core units are pretty strong imo, and I like GS as a faction. I am not an HE purist even if I sound like that on the forums. :)
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited January 11

    I wish GS get bolt throwes added other than that seems rather balamced, maybe make waghh not be affected by cookdown stopping abilities.

    I doubt that they would be effective vs fast small targets(vs slow large targets Orc Arrer Boyz are effective enough even now).
    IMHO it should not have been affected from the start. Personally i do not use Curse of the years as VC vs GS just due to the reason i consider it as abuse.


    Its on GS players to offer the alternatives

    Maybe my previos message looked like a rant, it is quite difficult express proper emotions due to language barrier, but it was just observation of demography situation. So there is little surprise that we lack constructive GS suggestions.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited January 11

    It's about a spell that allows a faction (at this level of OP it is irrelevant what that faction is) to dish out instant alphas spikes of near 4k damage investing

    It would deal such damage only to unarmored targets. Vs armored it is not so different by effectivness per WoM than Spirit Leech with better range, but unlike spirit leech it can miss(vs any non flying caster it catch the ground quite often), you can use obstacles or you own troops as screen. On any other faction it would be broken OP. On GS with ground casters it reached lvl of most used spells, probably need couple tweaks, like gold cost of spell itself, but far from catastrophic as you imply.

    AP are garbage for magic missiles. No one need another trash like Gaze of Nagash.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    I wish GS get bolt throwes added other than that seems rather balamced, maybe make waghh not be affected by cookdown stopping abilities.

    I doubt that they would be effective vs fast small targets(vs slow large targets Orc Arrer Boyz are effective enough even now).
    IMHO it should not have been affected from the start. Personally i do not use Curse of the years as VC vs GS just due to the reason i consider it as abuse.


    Its on GS players to offer the alternatives

    Maybe my previos message looked like a rant, it is quite difficult express proper emotions due to language barrier, but it was just observation of demography situation. So there is little surprise that we lack constructive GS suggestions.
    Really lets look at some data from the firs page of balancing section

    Dwarfs buffs - 3 topics
    all 3 eves together! buffs - 3 topics
    Bret - 3 topics


    Yes clearly elves are dominating the forums if you insist on ignoring the facts, your observation is clearly wrong if you look at the data, its just its true that one HE player in particular keeps writing about HE in almost every thread but its absolutely no different than yst trolling on elves in every chance he gets.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    edited January 11
    On topic i see no reason why GS need great counter to flying mages, apart from VC what other weaknesses do GS have? Every faction suffers from struggling vs something and its not like GS cannot deal with mages on eagles, its just not easy for them. Look at BM for example they have way harder time vs flying mages. Dwarfs lack mobility should we give them cav now?

    GS got hard time vs flying small untis...good because they dominate on the ground.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,698Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    It's about a spell that allows a faction (at this level of OP it is irrelevant what that faction is) to dish out instant alphas spikes of near 4k damage investing

    It would deal such damage only to unarmored targets. Vs armored it is not so different by effectivness per WoM than Spirit Leech with better range, but unlike spirit leech it can miss(vs any non flying caster it catch the ground quite often), you can use obstacles or you own troops as screen. On any other faction it would be broken OP. On GS with ground casters it reached lvl of most used spells, probably need couple tweaks, like gold cost of spell itself, but far from catastrophic as you imply.

    AP are garbage for magic missiles. No one need another trash like Gaze of Nagash.
    That's the point, you balance vs maximum performance, you don't balance things based on it being used incorrectly.

    Adding AP to overcast gives flexibility, nobody forces you to use it against non-armored targets. Just don't overcast and it will still have the same WoM efficiency as before but with less spike damage. Exactly as intended. It can miss, but it doesn't really miss, especially when fired from stalk and the missile is invisible if you're zoomed out a bit.

    And the any other faction argument is not valid imo, it's a bit OP in mirror match vs Wurzzhag. I did tests vs Azhag too, and surprisingly Azhag is almost immune to it. Nearly every missile misses, what's with that? When testing vs Alarielle nearly every single missile hit every time. Maybe there is some hitbox thing going on too... in any case, the spell is good vs nearly all factions and GS are not handicapped vs nearly all factions. In fact GS have a really good matchup vs HE, CA_duck explained that GS had (one of) the highest winrates in QB last patch with that HE was a common pick and that GS were dominating HE. HE have abusive ways to get around this, but that abuse is forced by losing decisively if playing into the GS strengths... so it's not that simple.
  • JoukeSeinstraJoukeSeinstra Posts: 275Registered Users
    Cirdan said:

    y4g3r said:

    The title and many of the responses are it is "far too cost effective" and are calling for major nerfs. The people defending it are calling for reason, not a nerf bat.

    A wom increase, a reduction in its non-ap damage, a reduction in its range/accuracy at max range.

    One of these can work, not all of them.

    As it stands, gs are open to abuse from flying units, unless you bring Wurrzhag or a goblin mage. Gs archers don't cut it, rusty arrerz don't cut it. VG and gaze of mork are the only reliable counters, and the biggest argument with any credibility is I can't see them because stalk, an ability which is counter by any chaff unit or basic safe tactics.

    If you actually bother to read the title you can see that it is a question and not a statement. And in the OP i write that it seemed to be too cost effective as of now and i haven't called for a major nerf, while i think it really needs tweaking in some way. Pls don't try to interpret my tread in a way that suits your needs.

    Also i see many commentors defending it with tooth and nail without seeing any need for change, i'm not sure i can call that "reason". Also some commentors seems to imply that it is abuse to even bring a flying lord, which is laughable. Reason is that it needs a tweak considering it's more effective than any comparable spell in terms of cost, WOM-cost, range, accuracy and damage, which several good players who main GS even admits.

    In what extent it should be tweaked i'll leave unsaid though.

    tank3487 said:

    Spaniard said:


    What bothers me though is that I see threads asking to nerf Vindictive Glare, Waagh, Wurzag, etc. But no one really is providing with a list of buffs to compensate.

    Answer are quite clear. Elf players are huge majority in the forum. And guess what Lords are on flying unarmored mounts? GS players are few in numbers. I would have proposed gold cost increase for the spell itself and fix to visual effects(while testing it as GS in QB had problem with seeing missiles), so double goblin shaman builds would take a toll. Do not see so big problem in squishy Lord without protection being squished.
    Now this I find extremely annoying, you keep trying to make this about Elves or about posters on the forums. It's not. It's about a spell that allows a faction (at this level of OP it is irrelevant what that faction is) to dish out instant alphas spikes of near 4k damage investing as little as 456 gold and 16 WoM, and you can do that vs any faction in the game, including mirror match. There is no defending that seriously, it's just broken according to the balancing norms that has been established for this game.
    Spaniard said:

    Damage should go down a bit. Should probably go from doing 1.3K to alarielle on an eagle to 1K, instead. Keep everything else the same.

    I really would not touch accuracy. It feels good that GS have at least one reliable way to hurt these kind of fliers. Skink chief on terradons, Larry, Glady on eagle have been a nightmare for GS in my experience because arrows simply couldn't hit them.

    What bothers me though is that I see threads asking to nerf Vindictive Glare, Waagh, Wurzag, etc. But no one really is providing with a list of buffs to compensate.

    Let me explain. Take the HE example. When someone asks to nerf Star of Avelorn, you quickly see a bunch of HE players coming up with a long list of buffing suggestions for the entire roster, which can be understandable.

    Same with WE. Nerfing Waywatchers is ok, but only after half the roster has been buffed.

    Life for the Greenskin player is tough.

    So I will go ahead and say that if Vindictive Glare get any nerfs, I would like to see GS cavalry stats buffed. And if Waagh gets any nerfs, I would like to see Leadership buffs (from +2 to +4) in pretty much every unit of infantry, cavalry, monster and character. Moreover, I would only undertand a nerf to Wurzag if GS characters got new and more powerful mounts options.

    I understand where you're coming from, but at the level of outlying VG is right now, as I wrote above, this needs to be seen a bit in isolation. It completely breaks the balance norm. I don't think it's a valid argument to say it's needed to protect from flying units, or that it's bad against armor or small targets. It's a **** poor band-aid, that's what it is and that doesn't justify broken stuff. We have to balance the game after maximum performance, and in this case Alarielle happens to be a good example of maximum performance against a common unit in a common faction.

    If we're not balancing vs max performance I could claim we need to buff DPs because they do badly vs GKs ignoring their brutal performance vs WE, or call for reverting the nerfs to SD breath because it does nothing to Kholek anymore, ignoring that double star dragon + tempest used to oneshot mortathi. We can't balance like that. If you need arguments, make sure it's not OP in the mirror match first vs Wurzzhag or Azhag.

    That's the reason I think the overcast needs to be changed from doubling number of missiles and BvL bonuses applied, into increased AP damage on the existing number of missiles. That will address the poor performance vs armor to some extent, adding flexibility, and it will remove the arguably broken alpha of double overcast vs low armor. Note that you could still do single cast, power item, single very short order but it requires some more gold investment and most importantly it offers some counter-play by no longer being instant from stalk. I think that's 100% reasonable.

    What GS needs in my opinion is better core tools to deal with flying, for example spear chukkas should be a thing. Sure you can dodge BTs, but not for an entire game, not under effigy or tormentor. In general I also think BTs in all factions that has them need a velocity boost. In general I also think the Waagh needs a redesign, it promotes toxic play styles vs greenskins in the current form. I don't really think the faction needs pure buffs to compensate, but more patching some weaknesses in the roster like some ways to deal with terror factions and flying. Except for the cav the core units are pretty strong imo, and I like GS as a faction. I am not an HE purist even if I sound like that on the forums. :)
    this needs to be seen a bit in isolation

    Not in, not out, in between? Where exactly is that?

    It completely breaks the balance norm

    How do you break something you haven't defined?

    I don't think it's a valid argument to say it's needed to protect from flying units

    Greenskin lack protection from flyer

    Vindictive Glare offers good protection from flyers

    Greenskins now have good protection from flyers


    Looks like a valid argument to me.

    If we're not balancing vs max performance I could claim we need to buff DPs because they do badly vs GKs

    How do you balance max performance? You're using words without explanation. What are your parameters for minimal and maximal performance?

    If you need arguments, make sure it's not OP in the mirror match first vs Wurzzhag or Azhag

    How is this an argument?

    I think that's 100% reasonable

    Reason is not expressed in a percentual scale.

    What GS needs in my opinion is better core tools to deal with flying

    We got it, and you want to take it. See the circular argument?

    In general I also think the Waagh needs a redesign, it promotes toxic play styles vs greenskins in the current form

    Shifting the burden.

    I understand where you're coming from

    You're sympathy is condescending. If you did not mean it to, it was ignorantly condescending.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 441Registered Users
    All right, this thread honestly has some amazing meme gold. Both sides are right in some things and so wrong in others at the same time. I personally have a huge urge to switch "stalked shamans with Vindictive Glare alpha striking lord 200 meters away with no ability to retaliate" with "stalked Waywatchers..." and look at the sides instantly switching around while using mostly the same arguments as before. I mean, who had any troubles with units alpha striking important targets from stealth before, right? Just don't take those units and scout ahead, hahaha.


    But on a more serious note, skipping a lot of words about how GS-HE and GS meta in general evolved for the last year, right now it's... Interesting. GS always had a great tool against big flying monsters with Gobling archers(and to a certain extent with Goblin skirmish cavalry) which can unleash a huge volume of extremely cost effective ranged fire against medium armored targets. They nuke even landed eagles, but are much less effective against flying ones. Come to think of it, with right setup GS have no problems with any flying monster - goblin archers, goblin skirmishers, Wuzzag + 2 goblin heroes combo... Unless the target is small and does not need to land in order to do damage. And that's only a few units in the game - any mage with magic missile on a flying mount, Alariele on Eagle, Glady on Eagle and Skink Chief on Terradon(and lizardmen Terradons to a certain extent). All of them are aimed at sniping GS lord and caster, as otherwise chances of winning can be pretty slim(unless you are Lizardmen). And those are the units Goblin Shamans counters extremely well. Fighting fire with the same fire.

    And yes, I am not talking here about armored non flying monsters - those are still problematic for GS, but it's a bit of different topic.

    I honestly quite like the concept of Goblin Shaman - small invisible magical anti-large S-300 with great array of support spells. But his missile is extremely powerful vs low-medium large targets and it can be spammed even by tournament rules with Skarsnik in order to nuke certain targets extremely fast. Yes, he is a good counter vs certain threats GS can face, but he is too good against them and only them. Too effective and too specialized. The main problem however lies within the overcasted version of this spell. Base version, while being may be a bit too good, is much more balanced thanks to cooldown.

    So, how to fix Vindictive Gaze? Well, there is no clear answer. There is indeed a general problem with all missiles in terms of balance. Just severely nerfing Gaze could put it back into "why take" territory. Making it better at piercing at the same time? It will push it into Amber Spear territory. So, if speaking of easy fixes, we can just make overcasted version to swap usual damage for AP(but no 2x projectiles). Would make this spell useful against both unarmored and armored monsters, dealing kinda the same damage to both with only difference being WoM cost. Could also require additional corrections in terms of damage or WoM cost overall. Limiting its range to 200 meters could also be a pretty good change, although then Goblin Shaman gets outranged by other magic missiles.


    P.S. Just had an idea if instead of a single shotgun like burst Gaze would be like a magical pew-pew-pew machine gun, so projectiles would go in a stream. Would look cool as hell as AA tool, hah.

    P.P.S. You could also make Vindictive Gaze go into an arc like an artillery shot and hit small area around their target as to limit the damage done to small targets both on the ground and flying, while making it better against bigger targets. Hard to implement properly though. For example it could just nuke cavalry like nothing.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    Goblin archers have low range, and Orc archers are too inaccurate to be a consistent tool to dealing with eagles or terradons.

    Seriously, I've had my Hawk Riders stand still under fire from few Orc archers while taking out arty and they suffered very little damage.

    So, yes, I agree Greenskins need a tool to deal with fliers better. I wish Skaven had a similar spell, cause I was shooting warpgaled dragon with globes and 99% of them missed.

    Little less damage, like what Spaniard said, from 1.3 k to 1k would work probably.
  • konosmgrkonosmgr Posts: 161Registered Users
    edited January 11
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/19KBeAulBzadEYnG-WFa2w5lqYYnxp_UC/view?usp=sharing

    This is the replay from a quick battle i just played as GS. In the first 10 seconds of the game an overcasted vindictive glare brought allariele from 3.8k down to 2k and there was literally nothing he can do aside from hiding her in the edges of the map, as it's impossible to dodge the projectiles and I also caught him by surprise. In the next couple minutes 2 more overcasted VG killed her totally even though she was staying back and not partaking in the frontline fight. When a 228 gold investment can shutdown a vital part of the enemy strategy with 0 effort and 0 counterplay, that's simply abysmal balance.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,624Registered Users
    konosmgr said:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/19KBeAulBzadEYnG-WFa2w5lqYYnxp_UC/view?usp=sharing

    This is the replay from a quick battle i just played as GS. In the first 10 seconds of the game an overcasted vindictive glare brought allariele from 3.8k down to 2k and there was literally nothing he can do aside from hiding her in the edges of the map, as it's impossible to dodge the projectiles and I also caught him by surprise. In the next couple minutes 2 more overcasted VG killed her totally even though she was staying back and not partaking in the frontline fight. When a 228 gold investment can shutdown a vital part of the enemy strategy with 0 effort and 0 counterplay, that's simply abysmal balance.

    I see no problem. Anything that punishes the pidegon queen is a plus in my book. Maybe it'll make people think twice about autopicking her, especially autopicking her mounted on the pidgeon.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,698Registered Users
    @JoukeSeinstra What is that? I can answer all your snarky little remarks with that when I post I assume a basic comprehension level of the reader. I also sometimes say things like "I don't give a flying f*ck" even though I am perfectly aware that f*cks don't fly.

    @Zeblasky I think I agree with most things you write there. I just have to add about stalked waywatchers that I do think their alpha is a bit too high too. There are a few details that offers more counterplay though compared to VG making it slightly better: 1) It also requires Prey from the Glady which has 100m range and not stalk nor vanguard, and 2) and perhaps most importantly, 4x WW + Glady costs 5000+ gold and that means that you can't throw it away. You can't make a max forward deploy, net and gank Tyrion from spawn, then you are likely to lose 5000+ gold to cav. With the Shaman though you can forward deploy him alone and immediately recover his value, sometimes x5, with one click. That's a big part of the brokenness right there.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,059Registered Users
    Beautiful, working as intended. Afterall u can see they r trying to dodge abuse and spam arcane unforge lol
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,698Registered Users
    yst said:

    Beautiful, working as intended. Afterall u can see they r trying to dodge abuse and spam arcane unforge lol

    I have actually said many times that I think that Arcane Unforging and similar skills/spells should not use the condition for recharging (i.e. melee condition). I think they should change it so that these spells rather adds a block that wears off after duration instead of adding duration straight into the abilities.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,624Registered Users

    yst said:

    Beautiful, working as intended. Afterall u can see they r trying to dodge abuse and spam arcane unforge lol

    I have actually said many times that I think that Arcane Unforging and similar skills/spells should not use the condition for recharging (i.e. melee condition). I think they should change it so that these spells rather adds a block that wears off after duration instead of adding duration straight into the abilities.
    It should only affect abilities based on items, weapons and armor. It should not affect Waagh and similar command abilities like Stand Your Ground and stuff at all.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,698Registered Users
    konosmgr said:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/19KBeAulBzadEYnG-WFa2w5lqYYnxp_UC/view?usp=sharing

    This is the replay from a quick battle i just played as GS. In the first 10 seconds of the game an overcasted vindictive glare brought allariele from 3.8k down to 2k and there was literally nothing he can do aside from hiding her in the edges of the map, as it's impossible to dodge the projectiles and I also caught him by surprise. In the next couple minutes 2 more overcasted VG killed her totally even though she was staying back and not partaking in the frontline fight. When a 228 gold investment can shutdown a vital part of the enemy strategy with 0 effort and 0 counterplay, that's simply abysmal balance.

    Good display, and this is only one Shaman. Had you had 2 you would have stood a decent chance of killing Alarielle in the first 10 seconds of the game.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,624Registered Users

    konosmgr said:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/19KBeAulBzadEYnG-WFa2w5lqYYnxp_UC/view?usp=sharing

    This is the replay from a quick battle i just played as GS. In the first 10 seconds of the game an overcasted vindictive glare brought allariele from 3.8k down to 2k and there was literally nothing he can do aside from hiding her in the edges of the map, as it's impossible to dodge the projectiles and I also caught him by surprise. In the next couple minutes 2 more overcasted VG killed her totally even though she was staying back and not partaking in the frontline fight. When a 228 gold investment can shutdown a vital part of the enemy strategy with 0 effort and 0 counterplay, that's simply abysmal balance.

    Good display, and this is only one Shaman. Had you had 2 you would have stood a decent chance of killing Alarielle in the first 10 seconds of the game.
    Very good. Maybe she can be killed even faster?

  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users

    konosmgr said:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/19KBeAulBzadEYnG-WFa2w5lqYYnxp_UC/view?usp=sharing

    This is the replay from a quick battle i just played as GS. In the first 10 seconds of the game an overcasted vindictive glare brought allariele from 3.8k down to 2k and there was literally nothing he can do aside from hiding her in the edges of the map, as it's impossible to dodge the projectiles and I also caught him by surprise. In the next couple minutes 2 more overcasted VG killed her totally even though she was staying back and not partaking in the frontline fight. When a 228 gold investment can shutdown a vital part of the enemy strategy with 0 effort and 0 counterplay, that's simply abysmal balance.

    Good display, and this is only one Shaman. Had you had 2 you would have stood a decent chance of killing Alarielle in the first 10 seconds of the game.
    Very good. Maybe she can be killed even faster?
    Your unbiased and insightful comments are always a welcome sight on this forum.
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