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CA, Give The Skaven A Proper Balance Pass At Least!

Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior MemberPosts: 15,000Registered Users
They suck in battle so hard, their campaign runs counter to how it actually should play like...please at least consider making them not suck anymore before abandoning them for another six months. It's bad enough that they will remain incomplete for that long, but being trash-tier at the same time is too much.

Have at least that much consideration!

O yeah, and an actual bellchime for the Screaming Bell would be a nice present.

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Comments

  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 3,606Registered Users
    I was so excited the first time I got a Screaming Bell mount for a Grey Seer! And then *clonk*. Wtf?

    Other than that and Thanquol I don't really miss that much.
    Lord of the Undermountain
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users
    edited January 10
    RikRiorik said:

    I was so excited the first time I got a Screaming Bell mount for a Grey Seer! And then *clonk*. Wtf?

    Other than that and Thanquol I don't really miss that much.

    I miss Skaven that aren't trash tier and don't play like Elves in campaign. O wait, they were like that from the beginning. CA FIX THEM!

  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 9,617Registered Users
    They need to rework the eat captives to be a percentile or something and not a direct number of captives = direct number of casualties healed.

    It dis-proportionally benefits elite armies and punishes quantity races just for being a quantity races.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 240Registered Users
    Brave-mighty jezzails have CA base on their sight, just give the command boss-chief!
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users

    They need to rework the eat captives to be a percentile or something and not a direct number of captives = direct number of casualties healed.

    It dis-proportionally benefits elite armies and punishes quantity races just for being a quantity races.

    Have been saying this from the beginning. People then claim that Elves are expert healers and so it's A-OK that they are better at Skaven (as in, feeding troops recklessly into the grinder for victory) than the Skaven.

    It's stupid beyond belief.

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 5,192Registered Users
    Probably with the Lord Pack, I imagine. Although don't expect miracles :-/
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Probably with the Lord Pack, I imagine. Although don't expect miracles :-/

    The point is that Skaven shouldn't be left in the abysmal state they are in right now for that long. Also, it doesn't take miracles to relieve them of their trash-tier status and make them competitive.

  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 680Registered Users

    They need to rework the eat captives to be a percentile or something and not a direct number of captives = direct number of casualties healed.

    It dis-proportionally benefits elite armies and punishes quantity races just for being a quantity races.

    Have been saying this from the beginning. People then claim that Elves are expert healers and so it's A-OK that they are better at Skaven (as in, feeding troops recklessly into the grinder for victory) than the Skaven.

    It's stupid beyond belief.
    "Healing" implies no one ever dies in this game. That profoundly upsets me. I don't play this game to give my neighbours a cold. That's puke-spikey nonsense. I thought I was having some good old-fashioned killy fun.
  • DarkLordDDarkLordD Posts: 1,810Registered Users
    Are they really that bad ?
    Dark Lord D the Fearsome (I) ~~~ First Dark Lord of the Old World.

    --~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
  • makar55makar55 Posts: 1,344Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Probably with the Lord Pack, I imagine. Although don't expect miracles :-/

    I suppose as addition may come new mechanic from VC which lets you have invisible settlements.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users
    edited January 10
    DarkLordD said:

    Are they really that bad ?

    They are. It's long been a consensus that they're the worst faction in battle. They're overpriced and underpowered for the most part.

  • DarkLordDDarkLordD Posts: 1,810Registered Users

    DarkLordD said:

    Are they really that bad ?

    They are. It's long been a consensus that they're the worst faction in battle. They're overpriced and underpowered.
    Not such a Skaven fanboy, I thought they did quite alright. They got some serious anti large units. I guess they just work different then the casual faction.

    But I don;t play MP, so I can only speak for solo.
    Dark Lord D the Fearsome (I) ~~~ First Dark Lord of the Old World.

    --~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users
    DarkLordD said:

    DarkLordD said:

    Are they really that bad ?

    They are. It's long been a consensus that they're the worst faction in battle. They're overpriced and underpowered.
    Not such a Skaven fanboy, I thought they did quite alright. They got some serious anti large units. I guess they just work different then the casual faction.

    But I don;t play MP, so I can only speak for solo.
    No, they don't work alright. They don't do anything exceptionally well. All other factions have some sort of edge over them. They have 0 strengths but numerous weaknesses.

    They are supposed to drown enemies in battle with their superior numbers...but Elves do it better because they can immediately replace all their losses and Skaven can't. That's one of the worst and most botched aspects regarding their implementation that robs any campaign of the appropriate feel.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 1,910Registered Users
    I wouldn't mind seeing an extra 2 slots in the army that can be upgraded to higher amounts or the ability to fill them with better troops. Although I can use Clan slave stacks to back up my core armies so that does feel a little Skaven.

    I quite like them still, although it annoys me that I don't have any regiments of renown.
  • DarkLordDDarkLordD Posts: 1,810Registered Users

    DarkLordD said:

    DarkLordD said:

    Are they really that bad ?

    They are. It's long been a consensus that they're the worst faction in battle. They're overpriced and underpowered.
    Not such a Skaven fanboy, I thought they did quite alright. They got some serious anti large units. I guess they just work different then the casual faction.

    But I don;t play MP, so I can only speak for solo.
    No, they don't work alright. They don't do anything exceptionally well. All other factions have some sort of edge over them. They have 0 strengths but numerous weaknesses.

    They are supposed to drown enemies in battle with their superior numbers...but Elves do it better because they can immediately replace all their losses and Skaven can't. That's one of the worst and most botched aspects regarding their implementation that robs any campaign of the appropriate feel.
    If you say so, not such a fan of skaven myself, only played them once and I thought it was just ok. hard start, but got pretty cool later on.
    Dark Lord D the Fearsome (I) ~~~ First Dark Lord of the Old World.

    --~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users
    DarkLordD said:

    DarkLordD said:

    DarkLordD said:

    Are they really that bad ?

    They are. It's long been a consensus that they're the worst faction in battle. They're overpriced and underpowered.
    Not such a Skaven fanboy, I thought they did quite alright. They got some serious anti large units. I guess they just work different then the casual faction.

    But I don;t play MP, so I can only speak for solo.
    No, they don't work alright. They don't do anything exceptionally well. All other factions have some sort of edge over them. They have 0 strengths but numerous weaknesses.

    They are supposed to drown enemies in battle with their superior numbers...but Elves do it better because they can immediately replace all their losses and Skaven can't. That's one of the worst and most botched aspects regarding their implementation that robs any campaign of the appropriate feel.
    If you say so, not such a fan of skaven myself, only played them once and I thought it was just ok. hard start, but got pretty cool later on.
    All player led faction do well in campaign because the game is super easy. But that's not the point. The point is that Skaven don't play like they're supposed to. If you do use chaff like chaff the game punishes you for it with extremely long recovery periods.

    That Elves can do it better is disgraceful. The dying race that's long past its prime should not be rewarded for reckless play.

  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 9,617Registered Users

    DarkLordD said:

    DarkLordD said:

    DarkLordD said:

    Are they really that bad ?

    They are. It's long been a consensus that they're the worst faction in battle. They're overpriced and underpowered.
    Not such a Skaven fanboy, I thought they did quite alright. They got some serious anti large units. I guess they just work different then the casual faction.

    But I don;t play MP, so I can only speak for solo.
    No, they don't work alright. They don't do anything exceptionally well. All other factions have some sort of edge over them. They have 0 strengths but numerous weaknesses.

    They are supposed to drown enemies in battle with their superior numbers...but Elves do it better because they can immediately replace all their losses and Skaven can't. That's one of the worst and most botched aspects regarding their implementation that robs any campaign of the appropriate feel.
    If you say so, not such a fan of skaven myself, only played them once and I thought it was just ok. hard start, but got pretty cool later on.
    All player led faction do well in campaign because the game is super easy. But that's not the point. The point is that Skaven don't play like they're supposed to. If you do use chaff like chaff the game punishes you for it with extremely long recovery periods.

    That Elves can do it better is disgraceful. The dying race that's long past its prime should not be rewarded for reckless play.
    I'd put the lore argument aside because people will use weasel words to rationalise and justify poor game design. Stick with the game and faction design discussion.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users
    edited January 10

    I'd put the lore argument aside because people will use weasel words to rationalise and justify poor game design. Stick with the game and faction design discussion.

    It's in CA's own interest to not have a faction be utter trash tier for that long a period of time. I presume people wouldn't have much enthusiasim for content for a faction that they gave up on long ago.

  • tanspan88tanspan88 Posts: 123Registered Users
    Ive tried multiplayer and lost every single game with them haha. Do love their character, but i agree they dont play as intended in campaign. Battles are slightly better, but not having and flying/cavalry/archers are 3 huge gaps that no other race has to manage. I think asymmetrical rosters bring interest to any game, but in skaven’s case they dont really do anything better than anyone else in order to compensate (except artillery tbf).

    Campaign-wise their mechanics seem quite punishing. Loyalty is something to be ignored at best, but can be quite annoying. Food is very hard to come by, and promotes very careful expansion into low city provinces and pastures - not too skaveny. And they suffer PO penalties from their own corruption, with little benefit.

    The main issue for me in campaign is they are not encouraged to be the expansionist, polluting menace that they are. The warlord skill “Ravenous Expansion” describes how they should feel to play; always needing fresh land to feed on, and always feeling that the empire is going to implode if it doesnt keep expanding.

    To fix this, i’d link food to corruption. Low corruption cities would produce large amounts of food, but as corruption builds, the food dries up, and the city becomes less profitable. And remove the rite that adds food per province, maybe replacing with one that adds food per city in the province, so as not to incentivise targetted expansion (very unskaveny). I’d also like to see them settle almost any climate without penalty (except Ulthuan and chaos wastes). I think the bonuses and negatives could be made more extreme as well, at the moment its possible to play all campaign with 0 food.

    Loyalty should give bonuses when very high. Im not sure if its a recent update, or just the new SFO, but it seems to generate some dilemmas when loyalty gets low, which adds some interest.

    I’d massively reduce/remove supply lines, to help give them the edge in numbers, and enable lots of little harrassing/raiding war-bands.

    And ambush attack doesnt makes sense... how can the biggest horde in warhammer creep up on you like that?

    In terms of roster; i like the big gaps compared to other races, but id like to see the horde aspect come across. Maybe experience chevrons increase unit size as well to help keep pace with 20 stacks. A few units need revalancing (loking at you warpfire throwers) and i think when jezzails/ratling guns/giant or wolf rats get added, they wont have some much problems with skirmishers and fliers.

    Thanks for raising this one ☝🏽
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 1,910Registered Users
    And ambush attack doesnt makes sense... how can the biggest horde in warhammer creep up on you like that?

    Approach from underground!
  • tanspan88tanspan88 Posts: 123Registered Users
    Well i like to stuff my armies with hellpit abominations, i think you’d hear them coming even from underground!

    Its such a broken mechanic tho, it single-handedly turns campaign skaven from unplayable to probably one of the stronger campaign factions (in player hands).

    Which reminds me, why does headstrong Queek get bonus to ambush when Trech the Sneaky doesn’t? So wrong!!
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users
    tanspan88 said:

    Well i like to stuff my armies with hellpit abominations, i think you’d hear them coming even from underground!

    Its such a broken mechanic tho, it single-handedly turns campaign skaven from unplayable to probably one of the stronger campaign factions (in player hands).

    Which reminds me, why does headstrong Queek get bonus to ambush when Trech the Sneaky doesn’t? So wrong!!

    Tretch does get bonuses for ambushes. They used to be faction wide but CA decided that Skaven can't be good at anything and so they reduced it to its lord effect.

  • PdcGunnerPdcGunner Posts: 97Registered Users

    They suck in battle so hard, their campaign runs counter to how it actually should play like...please at least consider making them not suck anymore before abandoning them for another six months. It's bad enough that they will remain incomplete for that long, but being trash-tier at the same time is too much.

    Have at least that much consideration!

    O yeah, and an actual bellchime for the Screaming Bell would be a nice present.

    I can agree on the bell chime, but I believe the Skaven aren't trash tier. I see the total war youtubers posting videos of matches where they win. They just need to be played very different than other races. They certainly aren't high tier, but if they were trash tier, you would never see them in tournaments.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users
    edited January 10
    PdcGunner said:

    They suck in battle so hard, their campaign runs counter to how it actually should play like...please at least consider making them not suck anymore before abandoning them for another six months. It's bad enough that they will remain incomplete for that long, but being trash-tier at the same time is too much.

    Have at least that much consideration!

    O yeah, and an actual bellchime for the Screaming Bell would be a nice present.

    I can agree on the bell chime, but I believe the Skaven aren't trash tier. I see the total war youtubers posting videos of matches where they win. They just need to be played very different than other races. They certainly aren't high tier, but if they were trash tier, you would never see them in tournaments.
    Tell me what they can do well. Just one thing.

    No, there isn't anything. VCoast does artillery better. VCounts does spam better (with summons that don't blow). Elves do monsters better. Practically everyone does magic better. Practically everyone does skirmishers better too. In campaign they get outspammed by Elves and both them and Dwarfs can expand easier because they don't have a secondary resource limiting them.

    That you can win with them is irrelevant. You could win with Chaos and Dwarfs back in the WH1 days when they were trash tier.

  • yukishiro1yukishiro1 Member Posts: 348Registered Users
    Being trash tier in campaign isn't the same as being trash tier in MP. Skaven aren't that bad in MP, but they have terrible campaign mechanics that make them an utter chore to play.

    They are kinda like the wood elves in that their core mechanics inexplicably force them to play in the exact opposite of the way they ought to, but then they also have the added indignity of just kind-of sucking too.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users

    Being trash tier in campaign isn't the same as being trash tier in MP. Skaven aren't that bad in MP, but they have terrible campaign mechanics that make them an utter chore to play.

    They are kinda like the wood elves in that their core mechanics inexplicably force them to play in the exact opposite of the way they ought to, but then they also have the added indignity of just kind-of sucking too.

    They're bottom tier in MP. There's not faction below them. Even Beastmen are better off.

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 4,145Registered Users

    They need to rework the eat captives to be a percentile or something and not a direct number of captives = direct number of casualties healed.

    It dis-proportionally benefits elite armies and punishes quantity races just for being a quantity races.

    Have been saying this from the beginning. People then claim that Elves are expert healers and so it's A-OK that they are better at Skaven (as in, feeding troops recklessly into the grinder for victory) than the Skaven.

    It's stupid beyond belief.
    "Healing" implies no one ever dies in this game. That profoundly upsets me. I don't play this game to give my neighbours a cold. That's puke-spikey nonsense. I thought I was having some good old-fashioned killy fun.
    The historical truth is that surprisingly few people were actually killed in medieval battles: they were more likely to be wounded to the point of not being able to fight (or, in the case of less motivated troops, to the point where they could pretend to be) and possibly die of their wounds later.

    It makes sense that races that value their people more would seek to minimise the "dying of their wounds later" part with good medicine. Skaven, on the other hand... if you're a Skaven that's wounded too badly to fight, you're dead.

    Rather than sniping at Elves, though, I think we should be looking at ways to fix the problems the Skaven have. My approach would be to have certain units that have a 'fast replenishment' rule that makes replenishment for them incredibly rapid, at least in their own territories (there's always more Clanrats and Skavenslaves). Alternatively, on the same justification, some of the Skaven units could be given drastically reduced (or even free!) recruitment cost, encouraging dealing with casualties by merging and recruitment. This would mean that Skaven armies are at a disadvantage if operating in extended campaigns a long way away from their settlements, but can refill their expendable troops almost immediately in their home territory.

    Like @tanspan88 I'd drastically reduce or even remove the effect of supply lines for skaven. Extra armies for skaven have a food upkeep, IIRC - having supply lines on top of that is overly punishing for a race that's supposed to have cheap, swarmy armies. I do like the idea of making food production inversely linked to corruption - give players meaningful decisions of how to develop their provinces. You need some centers of polluting industry, but you need your breadbaskets as well...
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 15,000Registered Users
    edited January 10
    Draxynnic said:

    They need to rework the eat captives to be a percentile or something and not a direct number of captives = direct number of casualties healed.

    It dis-proportionally benefits elite armies and punishes quantity races just for being a quantity races.

    Have been saying this from the beginning. People then claim that Elves are expert healers and so it's A-OK that they are better at Skaven (as in, feeding troops recklessly into the grinder for victory) than the Skaven.

    It's stupid beyond belief.
    "Healing" implies no one ever dies in this game. That profoundly upsets me. I don't play this game to give my neighbours a cold. That's puke-spikey nonsense. I thought I was having some good old-fashioned killy fun.
    The historical truth is that surprisingly few people were actually killed in medieval battles: they were more likely to be wounded to the point of not being able to fight (or, in the case of less motivated troops, to the point where they could pretend to be) and possibly die of their wounds later.

    It makes sense that races that value their people more would seek to minimise the "dying of their wounds later" part with good medicine. Skaven, on the other hand... if you're a Skaven that's wounded too badly to fight, you're dead.

    Rather than sniping at Elves, though, I think we should be looking at ways to fix the problems the Skaven have. My approach would be to have certain units that have a 'fast replenishment' rule that makes replenishment for them incredibly rapid, at least in their own territories (there's always more Clanrats and Skavenslaves). Alternatively, on the same justification, some of the Skaven units could be given drastically reduced (or even free!) recruitment cost, encouraging dealing with casualties by merging and recruitment. This would mean that Skaven armies are at a disadvantage if operating in extended campaigns a long way away from their settlements, but can refill their expendable troops almost immediately in their home territory.

    Like @tanspan88 I'd drastically reduce or even remove the effect of supply lines for skaven. Extra armies for skaven have a food upkeep, IIRC - having supply lines on top of that is overly punishing for a race that's supposed to have cheap, swarmy armies. I do like the idea of making food production inversely linked to corruption - give players meaningful decisions of how to develop their provinces. You need some centers of polluting industry, but you need your breadbaskets as well...
    I "snipe" at Elves because they need to have that massive gameplay flaw fixed. It can't be that Elves can recover all their losses after every win no matter who they fought. It feels completely off. Empire and Bretonnia only get the replenishment option when they fought other human factions and so it should be for Elves as well.

    RL comparisons are irrelevant because TW always have a ton more casualties and are to the death more often than not.

    Also, it isn't about recruitment cost, slaves are dirt-cheap, but you always have to sacrifice movement or turns to refill their ranks while Elves can always press on due to the enormous imbalance in after-battle recovery. For comparison, elves easily get 10-20% replenishment after battle. Skaven are somewhere between 5-8% which means they basically don't even regain a single model.

    This is down these replenishments being deceptively based on raw numbers rather than actual percentages. Elves have smaller unit sizes and so regain more while Skaven have large unit and so get less.

  • yukishiro1yukishiro1 Member Posts: 348Registered Users
    edited January 10
    The basic problem with Skaven in the campaign is that when you have a game built around 20-stack armies full of elite units there is no room for a faction that is based on masses of non-elite units.

    Then that is compounded with stupid mechanical choices that further penalize horde-based gameplay by again incentivizing you to use fewer, well-developed armies rather than more, lower-tier ones. So perversely instead of making Skaven especially able to field large numbers of armies, they have bizarrely made it even harder for Skaven to swarm than for other factions.
  • tanspan88tanspan88 Posts: 123Registered Users
    If skaven didnt have ambush on attack i think they’d be unplayable. And btw when i meant ambush bonus i meant the % chance increase of ambushing, rather than tretch’s attack bonus. I actually think the attack bonus when ambushing and after a retreat are a stroke of genius, but having it all the time as every attack ambushes kind of devalues it.

    Remove ambush attack, fix the other mechanics as suggested, and make Tretch the ambush/stormvermin king, and make Queek the duelist/horde boss.
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