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CA, Give The Skaven A Proper Balance Pass At Least!

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  • wunderb0rwunderb0r Junior Member Posts: 291Registered Users

    The basic problem with Skaven in the campaign is that when you have a game built around 20-stack armies full of elite units there is no room for a faction that is based on masses of non-elite units.

    Then that is compounded with stupid mechanical choices that further penalize horde-based gameplay by again incentivizing you to use fewer, well-developed armies rather than more, lower-tier ones. So perversely instead of making Skaven especially able to field large numbers of armies, they have bizarrely made it even harder for Skaven to swarm than for other factions.

    If you attack with one stack you do something wrong :D
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 4,928Registered Users
    edited January 10

    Draxynnic said:

    They need to rework the eat captives to be a percentile or something and not a direct number of captives = direct number of casualties healed.

    It dis-proportionally benefits elite armies and punishes quantity races just for being a quantity races.

    Have been saying this from the beginning. People then claim that Elves are expert healers and so it's A-OK that they are better at Skaven (as in, feeding troops recklessly into the grinder for victory) than the Skaven.

    It's stupid beyond belief.
    "Healing" implies no one ever dies in this game. That profoundly upsets me. I don't play this game to give my neighbours a cold. That's puke-spikey nonsense. I thought I was having some good old-fashioned killy fun.
    The historical truth is that surprisingly few people were actually killed in medieval battles: they were more likely to be wounded to the point of not being able to fight (or, in the case of less motivated troops, to the point where they could pretend to be) and possibly die of their wounds later.

    It makes sense that races that value their people more would seek to minimise the "dying of their wounds later" part with good medicine. Skaven, on the other hand... if you're a Skaven that's wounded too badly to fight, you're dead.

    Rather than sniping at Elves, though, I think we should be looking at ways to fix the problems the Skaven have. My approach would be to have certain units that have a 'fast replenishment' rule that makes replenishment for them incredibly rapid, at least in their own territories (there's always more Clanrats and Skavenslaves). Alternatively, on the same justification, some of the Skaven units could be given drastically reduced (or even free!) recruitment cost, encouraging dealing with casualties by merging and recruitment. This would mean that Skaven armies are at a disadvantage if operating in extended campaigns a long way away from their settlements, but can refill their expendable troops almost immediately in their home territory.

    Like @tanspan88 I'd drastically reduce or even remove the effect of supply lines for skaven. Extra armies for skaven have a food upkeep, IIRC - having supply lines on top of that is overly punishing for a race that's supposed to have cheap, swarmy armies. I do like the idea of making food production inversely linked to corruption - give players meaningful decisions of how to develop their provinces. You need some centers of polluting industry, but you need your breadbaskets as well...
    I "snipe" at Elves because they need to have that massive gameplay flaw fixed. It can't be that Elves can recover all their losses after every win no matter who they fought. It feels completely off. Empire and Bretonnia only get the replenishment option when they fought other human factions and so it should be for Elves as well.

    RL comparisons are irrelevant because TW always have a ton more casualties and are to the death more often than not.

    Also, it isn't about recruitment cost, slaves are dirt-cheap, but you always have to sacrifice movement or turns to refill their ranks while Elves can always press on due to the enormous imbalance in after-battle recovery. For comparison, elves easily get 10-20% replenishment after battle. Skaven are somewhere between 5-8% which means they basically don't even regain a single model.

    This is down these replenishments being deceptively based on raw numbers rather than actual percentages. Elves have smaller unit sizes and so regain more while Skaven have large unit and so get less.
    Ahhh, so it's the after-battle replenishment options specifically rather than the base rates?

    There I'm inclined to agree. The rationale is that giving work to the prisoners allows the wounded to recover more quickly, and while there's a certain truth in that... it should not have the strong effect it has in-game. It also tends to have the effect of making it pretty much always the best option: Dark Elves because you also want to maximise the slaves resource, and High Elves because their mechanics make it crucial to keep the unit strengths up.

    That said, I do think it's fitting that skaven can't have massive replenishment unless they're in territory that skaven populations are actually present in - since, by and large, they don't look after their wounded, and the "there's more where they came from" approach doesn't really apply when "where they came from" is half a continent away. So I think it is fitting for skaven to only get high replenishment if it's their territory, or at least territory with significant skaven corruption. Elves, on the other hand, are overall better in the fluff at keeping a military expedition pressing on far away from their home territories.
  • FraxinusFraxinus Posts: 253Registered Users
    I 100% agree, and I'll add that I think they should take another look at Lizardmen as well. The fact that they just took Cold-Blooded right out from under us without anything to make up for it would have been annoying by itself, but then to ignore the faction for another six months...

    The thing that a lot of people don't realize is that Lizardmen units were deliberately under-statted and over-costed to make up for the free healing that they had access to. Take away that free healing and now you have a lot of units that just aren't providing enough bang for their buck.

    Revivification Crystals are still a thing so the hit wasn't that hard on infantry, but giant monsters (one of the Lizardmen selling points) are really suffering. There's pretty much no reason to take a Carnosaur against any faction with a half-decent ranged game, as they'll become pincushions ten seconds after they come within range of the enemy. An Oldblood (or Kroq-Gar) mounted on a Carnosaur can now safely be sniped to oblivion without much concern that they'll be able to heal themself.

    Without proper monster support, the infantry line begins to feel somewhat lacking. Saurus Warriors are some of the best early-to-mid-tier infantry in the game, but they under-perform against other factions' elite infantry - even anti-large elite infantry like Pheonix Guard, Blackguards etc. Top-tier anti-infantry units (Swordmasters, GW Chosen, Executioners, etc.) just eat them for breakfast.

    Also, something that I've been thinking for a while - Lizardmen need a better way to deal with corruption. They're supposed to be the last line of defense against Chaos, but they don't get access to any Untainted buildings until I think tier 3.

    So yes, I think if they're going through with this idiotic "no content until after 3K" plan of theirs, the least they could do would be to roll out a big update beforehand to give the two most unloved and abandoned races in the game a fighting chance in the meantime.
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 936Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    They need to rework the eat captives to be a percentile or something and not a direct number of captives = direct number of casualties healed.

    It dis-proportionally benefits elite armies and punishes quantity races just for being a quantity races.

    Have been saying this from the beginning. People then claim that Elves are expert healers and so it's A-OK that they are better at Skaven (as in, feeding troops recklessly into the grinder for victory) than the Skaven.

    It's stupid beyond belief.
    "Healing" implies no one ever dies in this game. That profoundly upsets me. I don't play this game to give my neighbours a cold. That's puke-spikey nonsense. I thought I was having some good old-fashioned killy fun.
    The historical truth is that surprisingly few people were actually killed in medieval battles: they were more likely to be wounded to the point of not being able to fight (or, in the case of less motivated troops, to the point where they could pretend to be) and possibly die of their wounds later.

    It makes sense that races that value their people more would seek to minimise the "dying of their wounds later" part with good medicine. Skaven, on the other hand... if you're a Skaven that's wounded too badly to fight, you're dead.

    Rather than sniping at Elves, though, I think we should be looking at ways to fix the problems the Skaven have. My approach would be to have certain units that have a 'fast replenishment' rule that makes replenishment for them incredibly rapid, at least in their own territories (there's always more Clanrats and Skavenslaves). Alternatively, on the same justification, some of the Skaven units could be given drastically reduced (or even free!) recruitment cost, encouraging dealing with casualties by merging and recruitment. This would mean that Skaven armies are at a disadvantage if operating in extended campaigns a long way away from their settlements, but can refill their expendable troops almost immediately in their home territory.

    Like @tanspan88 I'd drastically reduce or even remove the effect of supply lines for skaven. Extra armies for skaven have a food upkeep, IIRC - having supply lines on top of that is overly punishing for a race that's supposed to have cheap, swarmy armies. I do like the idea of making food production inversely linked to corruption - give players meaningful decisions of how to develop their provinces. You need some centers of polluting industry, but you need your breadbaskets as well...
    I understand and appreciate your point from a historical (and human) context, but look at the lore. This is a game with giant fireballs, over-sized weapons, monsters that eat people whole and murderous superhumans that thrive on killing and sometimes keep fighting even with terminal injuries only to die later.

    Death permeates every pore of the setting. Magically recovering wounded soldiers across the board doesn't please me.

    I agree that focussing on elves alone is a needless distraction, but greenskins, the undead and skaven ought to replenish faster as part of their playstyles.

    Undead resurrect stuff. Skaven are numberless. Greenskins almost spring up from nowhere (spores and stuff maybe?). Its new bodies pouring in for those factions that should outweigh good medicine. It's a heck of a band aid that would "undigest" you from the belly of a giant, unbreak your bones and put you back on the front lines for the next battle.
  • FraxinusFraxinus Posts: 253Registered Users

    Draxynnic said:

    They need to rework the eat captives to be a percentile or something and not a direct number of captives = direct number of casualties healed.

    It dis-proportionally benefits elite armies and punishes quantity races just for being a quantity races.

    Have been saying this from the beginning. People then claim that Elves are expert healers and so it's A-OK that they are better at Skaven (as in, feeding troops recklessly into the grinder for victory) than the Skaven.

    It's stupid beyond belief.
    "Healing" implies no one ever dies in this game. That profoundly upsets me. I don't play this game to give my neighbours a cold. That's puke-spikey nonsense. I thought I was having some good old-fashioned killy fun.
    The historical truth is that surprisingly few people were actually killed in medieval battles: they were more likely to be wounded to the point of not being able to fight (or, in the case of less motivated troops, to the point where they could pretend to be) and possibly die of their wounds later.

    It makes sense that races that value their people more would seek to minimise the "dying of their wounds later" part with good medicine. Skaven, on the other hand... if you're a Skaven that's wounded too badly to fight, you're dead.

    Rather than sniping at Elves, though, I think we should be looking at ways to fix the problems the Skaven have. My approach would be to have certain units that have a 'fast replenishment' rule that makes replenishment for them incredibly rapid, at least in their own territories (there's always more Clanrats and Skavenslaves). Alternatively, on the same justification, some of the Skaven units could be given drastically reduced (or even free!) recruitment cost, encouraging dealing with casualties by merging and recruitment. This would mean that Skaven armies are at a disadvantage if operating in extended campaigns a long way away from their settlements, but can refill their expendable troops almost immediately in their home territory.

    Like @tanspan88 I'd drastically reduce or even remove the effect of supply lines for skaven. Extra armies for skaven have a food upkeep, IIRC - having supply lines on top of that is overly punishing for a race that's supposed to have cheap, swarmy armies. I do like the idea of making food production inversely linked to corruption - give players meaningful decisions of how to develop their provinces. You need some centers of polluting industry, but you need your breadbaskets as well...
    I understand and appreciate your point from a historical (and human) context, but look at the lore. This is a game with giant fireballs, over-sized weapons, monsters that eat people whole and murderous superhumans that thrive on killing and sometimes keep fighting even with terminal injuries only to die later.

    Death permeates every pore of the setting. Magically recovering wounded soldiers across the board doesn't please me.

    I agree that focussing on elves alone is a needless distraction, but greenskins, the undead and skaven ought to replenish faster as part of their playstyles.

    Undead resurrect stuff. Skaven are numberless. Greenskins almost spring up from nowhere (spores and stuff maybe?). Its new bodies pouring in for those factions that should outweigh good medicine. It's a heck of a band aid that would "undigest" you from the belly of a giant, unbreak your bones and put you back on the front lines for the next battle.
    Agreed. Warfare in Warhammer is ridiculously lethal. Even the most "normal" of the races, the Empire, has steam tanks, massed artillery, gryphons, and devastating magic. The wounded are going to be far outnumbered by the dead in battles like that.

    Also, it's a major part of the lore that certain "dying" races (Elves, Dwarfs, possibly Lizardmen depending on how the spawning pools are going) have very finite numbers of people left and have to be extremely careful in battle. A single dead elf is as grievous a loss to the race as... I don't know, ten or twenty dead humans, at least. Which would then be replaced as easily as a hundred greenskins, zombies, or skaven. This is why Dwarfs rarely leave their Karaks in the lore.

    I think the constraints of game balance are really the problem here. Realistically, units from the more elite races should far outclass units from the other races, but it should be very difficult for those races to recoup losses.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,136Registered Users
    Well they are weak in battle, but are not abysmall, just like LM they struggle in a lot of places, but when playing right they do **** well, their arty and numbers make for a fun and powerfull army. Tough their replenishment and supply lines could use a buff


  • PdcGunnerPdcGunner Posts: 299Registered Users
    Ok true points. Tretech Craventail campaign is a nightmare and it took me a few tries to get the hang of Lord Skrolk’s campaign (was disappointed Plague Monks were not viable in the final battle). I can also agree to reduce supply lines cost for Skaven. Hope they immplement the vibes mechanic that allows them to have under settlements. It would be even cooler when an enemy tries to settle, the settlement can exist as an under settlement without a battle. To Be easily taken again.
  • Unruly_MarmiteUnruly_Marmite Junior Member Posts: 147Registered Users
    The Skaven campaign is such a mess. Food is just awkward overall and supply lines are so crippling. In fact, I was playing Shogun 2 recently and it was so refreshing to not have to worry about supply line upkeep increases, or to be able to recruit an army in a secure province and then march it to the front lines. I like Warhammer more, but supply lines and generals are a downgrade imo. I wonder what it would be like to implement a mechanic that limits supply lines to armies with Generals, and allows you to recruit units into 'free' armies otherwise? That way you can play a weaker horde, or a more expensive but much better army.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 4,928Registered Users

    Draxynnic said:

    They need to rework the eat captives to be a percentile or something and not a direct number of captives = direct number of casualties healed.

    It dis-proportionally benefits elite armies and punishes quantity races just for being a quantity races.

    Have been saying this from the beginning. People then claim that Elves are expert healers and so it's A-OK that they are better at Skaven (as in, feeding troops recklessly into the grinder for victory) than the Skaven.

    It's stupid beyond belief.
    "Healing" implies no one ever dies in this game. That profoundly upsets me. I don't play this game to give my neighbours a cold. That's puke-spikey nonsense. I thought I was having some good old-fashioned killy fun.
    The historical truth is that surprisingly few people were actually killed in medieval battles: they were more likely to be wounded to the point of not being able to fight (or, in the case of less motivated troops, to the point where they could pretend to be) and possibly die of their wounds later.

    It makes sense that races that value their people more would seek to minimise the "dying of their wounds later" part with good medicine. Skaven, on the other hand... if you're a Skaven that's wounded too badly to fight, you're dead.

    Rather than sniping at Elves, though, I think we should be looking at ways to fix the problems the Skaven have. My approach would be to have certain units that have a 'fast replenishment' rule that makes replenishment for them incredibly rapid, at least in their own territories (there's always more Clanrats and Skavenslaves). Alternatively, on the same justification, some of the Skaven units could be given drastically reduced (or even free!) recruitment cost, encouraging dealing with casualties by merging and recruitment. This would mean that Skaven armies are at a disadvantage if operating in extended campaigns a long way away from their settlements, but can refill their expendable troops almost immediately in their home territory.

    Like @tanspan88 I'd drastically reduce or even remove the effect of supply lines for skaven. Extra armies for skaven have a food upkeep, IIRC - having supply lines on top of that is overly punishing for a race that's supposed to have cheap, swarmy armies. I do like the idea of making food production inversely linked to corruption - give players meaningful decisions of how to develop their provinces. You need some centers of polluting industry, but you need your breadbaskets as well...
    I understand and appreciate your point from a historical (and human) context, but look at the lore. This is a game with giant fireballs, over-sized weapons, monsters that eat people whole and murderous superhumans that thrive on killing and sometimes keep fighting even with terminal injuries only to die later.

    Death permeates every pore of the setting. Magically recovering wounded soldiers across the board doesn't please me.

    I agree that focussing on elves alone is a needless distraction, but greenskins, the undead and skaven ought to replenish faster as part of their playstyles.

    Undead resurrect stuff. Skaven are numberless. Greenskins almost spring up from nowhere (spores and stuff maybe?). Its new bodies pouring in for those factions that should outweigh good medicine. It's a heck of a band aid that would "undigest" you from the belly of a giant, unbreak your bones and put you back on the front lines for the next battle.
    Eh, not really. The giant fireballs are already such that being in the blast isn't always enough to render the target(s) incapable of fighting, let alone being instant death by incineration. Oversized weapons are, well, oversized, and the physics actually makes weapons that are oversized for the wielder something that is generally detrimental.And the whole 'fighting with terminal injuries only to die later' bit... sure, that happens, but most elves don't have that kind of berserk fortitude.

    Nevertheless, most casualties in a typical TWW are from the same sources as in historical battles: arrows and bolts, and people beating up on each other with sharp (or occasionally blunt) implements, often while wearing armour. Armour itself drastically increases the likelihood that a 'casualty' comes from being beat down too hard to continue fighting rather than actually killed, unless the attacker explicitly goes for the coup de grace.

    And let's not forget that where elves are involved, they might literally be magically recovering wounded soldiers. How savory that magic is depends on the subrace, but I expect even the Dark Elves have means of quickly rejuvenating wounded but not dead soldiers.

    Granted, there are going to be some things that genuinely are "go to the afterlife, go directly to the afterlife, do not pass go, do not collect 200XP", but they're going to be in the minority. Assuming that every casualty is actually dead - unless specifically talking about entities that DO fight to the death - is not, I think, a good one.

    Regarding the other races you cite: VCs and greenskins already have mechanics to represent their numbers: raising from battle sites, free recruitment and upkeep of some basic units, Waaaghs. Even with skaven you could say the summons from below contribute to this. Some of these mechanics certainly aren't working very well, but nevertheless, they exist.

    Undead, I'm inclined to think have enough. It's only supposed to be the lower-ranking undead that are cheap to replace, after all, and for Tomb Kings and I think now for VCs, the cheapest units are actually free. Greenskins are a bit of a wildcard there, since their schtick in the fluff is less that they reproduce really quickly like skaven, and more that once they're established in an area, their form of reproduction makes them really hard to eradicate. That said, whatever system is worked out for skaven, it's possible that some elements could be ported over for greenskins.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,201Registered Users
    Skaven do one thing very well.

    **** Warp Lightning.

    That stuff is insane. Pin-point accurate and can murder most of whatever unit it hits and you can spam it like no tomorrow, lol.

    I hate assaulting skaven settlements because Warp Lightning and Warp Bombs will annihilate like half of whatever army I bring - every, single, time. Drives me nuts... there's no stopping it, at all. No amount of skill on your part can prevent it. Only the face that your troops are worth about 5 of theirs (unless you're greenskins) is what saves you.
  • JastallJastall Junior Member Posts: 933Registered Users
    While balance in a single-player mode isn't a priority, I do think that in terms of flavor, the race whose main attributes are being numberless and everywhere being a lot worse at troop replenishment than the race that is explicitly dying from lack of numbers feels completely off.

    Beyond that, the main problem with Skaven is that game mechanics punish chaff armies too heavily. IMO Skaven should get very reduced, if not non-existent, Supply Lines upkeep and instead rely on an expanded food system as an army limiting mechanism which would allow a lot more flexibility.
  • harngersteinharngerstein Posts: 804Registered Users
    Fraxinus said:

    I 100% agree, and I'll add that I think they should take another look at Lizardmen as well. The fact that they just took Cold-Blooded right out from under us without anything to make up for it would have been annoying by itself, but then to ignore the faction for another six months...

    The thing that a lot of people don't realize is that Lizardmen units were deliberately under-statted and over-costed to make up for the free healing that they had access to. Take away that free healing and now you have a lot of units that just aren't providing enough bang for their buck.

    Revivification Crystals are still a thing so the hit wasn't that hard on infantry, but giant monsters (one of the Lizardmen selling points) are really suffering. There's pretty much no reason to take a Carnosaur against any faction with a half-decent ranged game, as they'll become pincushions ten seconds after they come within range of the enemy. An Oldblood (or Kroq-Gar) mounted on a Carnosaur can now safely be sniped to oblivion without much concern that they'll be able to heal themself.

    Without proper monster support, the infantry line begins to feel somewhat lacking. Saurus Warriors are some of the best early-to-mid-tier infantry in the game, but they under-perform against other factions' elite infantry - even anti-large elite infantry like Pheonix Guard, Blackguards etc. Top-tier anti-infantry units (Swordmasters, GW Chosen, Executioners, etc.) just eat them for breakfast.

    Also, something that I've been thinking for a while - Lizardmen need a better way to deal with corruption. They're supposed to be the last line of defense against Chaos, but they don't get access to any Untainted buildings until I think tier 3.

    So yes, I think if they're going through with this idiotic "no content until after 3K" plan of theirs, the least they could do would be to roll out a big update beforehand to give the two most unloved and abandoned races in the game a fighting chance in the meantime.

    Woah there buckaroo, this is a Skaven thread. Maybe make another thread, as I agree with your sentiment.
  • MakoTheMakoMakoTheMako Posts: 1,246Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Skaven do one thing very well.

    **** Warp Lightning.

    That stuff is insane. Pin-point accurate and can murder most of whatever unit it hits and you can spam it like no tomorrow, lol.

    I hate assaulting skaven settlements because Warp Lightning and Warp Bombs will annihilate like half of whatever army I bring - every, single, time. Drives me nuts... there's no stopping it, at all. No amount of skill on your part can prevent it. Only the face that your troops are worth about 5 of theirs (unless you're greenskins) is what saves you.

    Any direct-fire artillery piece will out-trade warp lightning cannons due to the huge size and hitbox of the warp lightning cannons, they will be quickly destroyed. Bolt throwers destroy skaven artillery incredibly quickly.

    die about it

  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 9,907Registered Users
    I never understood why they made slaven arty so ginormous. A lightning cannon was always bigger than an organ gun, but not 8x bigger.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 4,928Registered Users

    Itharus said:

    Skaven do one thing very well.

    **** Warp Lightning.

    That stuff is insane. Pin-point accurate and can murder most of whatever unit it hits and you can spam it like no tomorrow, lol.

    I hate assaulting skaven settlements because Warp Lightning and Warp Bombs will annihilate like half of whatever army I bring - every, single, time. Drives me nuts... there's no stopping it, at all. No amount of skill on your part can prevent it. Only the face that your troops are worth about 5 of theirs (unless you're greenskins) is what saves you.

    Any direct-fire artillery piece will out-trade warp lightning cannons due to the huge size and hitbox of the warp lightning cannons, they will be quickly destroyed. Bolt throwers destroy skaven artillery incredibly quickly.
    I think Itharus was referring to the spell, not the cannon.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,846Registered Users
    They need to cancel suplly lines for Skaven.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • SaitohSaitoh Posts: 244Registered Users

    I never understood why they made slaven arty so ginormous. A lightning cannon was always bigger than an organ gun, but not 8x bigger.

    It's so they're tall enough to shoot over your own guys while still being direct fire.
  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Posts: 1,844Registered Users
    Well I played tretch a lot and also played skrolk and the supposed to near impossible Queek on legendary. And I think the Skaven are pretty well balanced, I guess the problem is they are balanced and the elves that surround them are pretty strong and have units for all situations, the skaven just need their lordpack with new units.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,201Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    Itharus said:

    Skaven do one thing very well.

    **** Warp Lightning.

    That stuff is insane. Pin-point accurate and can murder most of whatever unit it hits and you can spam it like no tomorrow, lol.

    I hate assaulting skaven settlements because Warp Lightning and Warp Bombs will annihilate like half of whatever army I bring - every, single, time. Drives me nuts... there's no stopping it, at all. No amount of skill on your part can prevent it. Only the face that your troops are worth about 5 of theirs (unless you're greenskins) is what saves you.

    Any direct-fire artillery piece will out-trade warp lightning cannons due to the huge size and hitbox of the warp lightning cannons, they will be quickly destroyed. Bolt throwers destroy skaven artillery incredibly quickly.
    I think Itharus was referring to the spell, not the cannon.
    Yarp.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Posts: 3,715Registered Users
    What about no upkeep for Skaven Slaves and Clan Rats
  • MakoTheMakoMakoTheMako Posts: 1,246Registered Users

    What about no upkeep for Skaven Slaves and Clan Rats

    Or a way to instantly recruit slaverats anywhere for free, and clanrats anywhere for a small amount of food

    die about it

  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 12,578Registered Users, Moderators
    No upkeep for Skavenslaves would be a good idea.

    Clan Rats... yeah, but only later on in the tech tree.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,894Registered Users
    Skavenslaves already have piddly upkeep that's not the problem. The problem is recouping their losses. It's simply too slow and punishes actually using them.

  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 12,578Registered Users, Moderators

    Skavenslaves already have piddly upkeep that's not the problem. The problem is recouping their losses. It's simply too slow and punishes actually using them.

    Disband and rerecruit. I'd say they should be recruitable in global stance anywhere and in one turn for cheap.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,894Registered Users
    Canuovea said:

    Skavenslaves already have piddly upkeep that's not the problem. The problem is recouping their losses. It's simply too slow and punishes actually using them.

    Disband and rerecruit. I'd say they should be recruitable in global stance anywhere and in one turn for cheap.
    No, Skaven should have the massive after battle recovery numbers that Elves currently have. That way you'd be rewarded to actually play them like, well, Skaven.

    If you still need to stand still after a battle to gain new slaves you are still being punished. Elves do NOT have to waste time after every battle, that's the point.

  • EliacTheEmeraldTeethEliacTheEmeraldTeeth Posts: 379Registered Users
    edited January 11
    My ideas :
    Skavenslaves are free to recruit and have no upkeep
    Skavenslaves get automaticaly reinforced after every battle (provided they aren't killed to the last rat)
    Tech giving clanrats -80% to upkeep/recruitment cost
    No supply lines
    Settlements not using up food (as in, only armies reduce food passively, cities how only when colonizing)
    Dedicated income building
    Eating captured enemies granting massive recovery
    Higher mass for Stormvermin with halberds (Maybe using strength in numbers to boost their mass?)
    Rites heroes being available at any Settlement to recruit, instead of spawning at capital
    Ability to summon 2 squads of slaves per unit of Stormvermin
    Corruption lowering recruitment costs and lowering food production
    I assure you, we are very real. And we have come for you and your realm.
  • harngersteinharngerstein Posts: 804Registered Users
    In Atilla there was a faction called the Tanukhids which gained a free unit of no upkeep slave infantry every turn they were raiding, provided there was space in the army. This could be the case with skaven slaves (greenskins too) and perhaps be upgradable to clanrats in the skill or tech tree
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,894Registered Users
    No, they need the better after-battle recovery. Anything that forces you to stand still and waste turns just doesn't solve the issue.

  • DarkLordDDarkLordD Posts: 2,293Registered Users

    PdcGunner said:

    They suck in battle so hard, their campaign runs counter to how it actually should play like...please at least consider making them not suck anymore before abandoning them for another six months. It's bad enough that they will remain incomplete for that long, but being trash-tier at the same time is too much.

    Have at least that much consideration!

    O yeah, and an actual bellchime for the Screaming Bell would be a nice present.

    I can agree on the bell chime, but I believe the Skaven aren't trash tier. I see the total war youtubers posting videos of matches where they win. They just need to be played very different than other races. They certainly aren't high tier, but if they were trash tier, you would never see them in tournaments.
    Tell me what they can do well. Just one thing.

    No, there isn't anything. VCoast does artillery better. VCounts does spam better (with summons that don't blow). Elves do monsters better. Practically everyone does magic better. Practically everyone does skirmishers better too. In campaign they get outspammed by Elves and both them and Dwarfs can expand easier because they don't have a secondary resource limiting them.

    That you can win with them is irrelevant. You could win with Chaos and Dwarfs back in the WH1 days when they were trash tier.

    I told you before, they are really good with dealing anything large.


    They require a very unique way to play and thats not something everyone can do. I woudn;t right away say they are trash.
    Dark Lord D the Fearsome (I) ~~~ First Dark Lord of the Old World.

    --~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,894Registered Users
    edited January 11
    DarkLordD said:

    PdcGunner said:

    They suck in battle so hard, their campaign runs counter to how it actually should play like...please at least consider making them not suck anymore before abandoning them for another six months. It's bad enough that they will remain incomplete for that long, but being trash-tier at the same time is too much.

    Have at least that much consideration!

    O yeah, and an actual bellchime for the Screaming Bell would be a nice present.

    I can agree on the bell chime, but I believe the Skaven aren't trash tier. I see the total war youtubers posting videos of matches where they win. They just need to be played very different than other races. They certainly aren't high tier, but if they were trash tier, you would never see them in tournaments.
    Tell me what they can do well. Just one thing.

    No, there isn't anything. VCoast does artillery better. VCounts does spam better (with summons that don't blow). Elves do monsters better. Practically everyone does magic better. Practically everyone does skirmishers better too. In campaign they get outspammed by Elves and both them and Dwarfs can expand easier because they don't have a secondary resource limiting them.

    That you can win with them is irrelevant. You could win with Chaos and Dwarfs back in the WH1 days when they were trash tier.

    I told you before, they are really good with dealing anything large.


    They require a very unique way to play and thats not something everyone can do. I woudn;t right away say they are trash.
    No, they are not good at that. Stormvermin Halberds suck and are overcosted. Poison Wind Globadiers have such low projectile velocity that they hit nothing that doesn't stand still and nothing that flies at all (including warpgaled units) and Warp Lightning Cannons are brittle and can be destroyed easily due to hitbox shenanigans.

    The "unique" way they require is playing around them not having any strengths and only weaknesses. They're absolute trash tier.

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