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Need some general advice for Greenskin campaigns

kgmikgmi Posts: 88Registered Users
I am currently in the middle of a GS campaign for the old world in WH 1, since it's one of the last races I want to complete it with.

The issue I have with the GS is that, the way they play goes against everything I prefer doing, which is consolidating, being passive and just booming up. Chaos campaign was surprisingly much more enjoyable for me in the end. But as GS, I just don't really know what to do, should I invest into 1-2 expensive armies for Grimgor? Or go with more but cheaper ones, to bring the green tide to the world? The Chaos campaign has spoiled me with their top tier melee units. As GS however, I just don't know what to recruit in the early game.

For example, I defeated all the Dwarf factions at turn 40, but not because I was good, because I struck them hard when they were down, even if the balance bar is in my favour early on, I barely pull close victories in a fair fight. If it wasn't for Grimgor solo'ing literally every lord I faced in battle so far, it would have been over.

GS have so many cool units, but I never really found use for most of them, gobbos seemed pointless when you are not playing Skarsnik, I just went lots of orc boys early on, and exploited the lack of speed of the Dwarfs, just outnumbering and flanking them hard with boys until I had Un's and Black Orcs. I skipped so many interesting units though, almost all the range stuff
(only recruited 4 arrer boys). Wolf riders? Boar Boys, Boar Boys Big Un's, Gobbo Spider Riders? I just can't figure out when it would be beneficial to bring a specific one of those units.

Right now it is turn 110 and I have plenty of black orcs, Big Un's boar boys, 2 araknoroks and 2 doom divers in my army. Just armour piercing for when chaos shows up and this composition can carry me against other factions because I out-teched them.
But I would like to use more of the GS roster than the obvious go to stuff.

Even though I really dislike their gameplay, da boyz reallyz grew on me, they have this charme that makes me want to master them anyway. Grimgor gotta have the most hilarious battle speeches I have witnessed so far.

So TL/DR: I could use a heads up on the GS army roster and their army composition for early / mid / late game, what units to use against what and when (all the guides I looked up are 2016), how aggressive should I be? Should I always rush the dwarfs whenever I can? etc.
Example: Boar boys and Boar boys big Un's, I don't understand the difference

Comments

  • Rochaid29Rochaid29 Senior Member Posts: 1,204Registered Users
    Wait for a race update.. if it ever comes to pass

    The ladz are in a sorry state
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 936Registered Users
    edited January 11
    For me, the OP sums up a lot of the GS campaign problems quite neatly.

    With most races, you can use pretty much all of the units at some point in the game and get some success.

    I think GS are best played at Hard difficulty or lower, so you can actually try to use more of their roster.

    Too many of their units are straight upgrades that don't leave a niche in SP (cost doesn't matter).

    Boar Boy Big'uns > Boar Boyz
    Savage Orcs > Regular Orc equivalent
    Black Orcs > Any other infantry
    Night Goblins > Goblins
    Arachnaroks > Giants (do need tech though)
    Anybody actually use the chariots in SP?

    End result: Biggest roster in game barely gets its surface scratched.

    You have to be aggressive, yes, but that is actually a decent rule of thumb for any race in this game.

    I get the feeling the smart tactic is to rush Black Orcs ASAP and then focus your forces around a large number of them.

    Personally, I like a couple of units of Wolf Rider Archers to initialise combat with a few volleys and then skirmish and disrupt with them and even pick off artillery.

    I don't bother with Greenskin Arty much. Doom Divers are fun, but they require a lot of tech and aren't as effective as they once were.

    Otherwise, Black Orcs and Arachnaroks can win the day on their own, but I think it is best to try to use some variety, even if it makes your forces weaker. It can become an extra boring slog otherwise.

    PS: Use squigs on dwarfs. Standard run-of-the-mill squigs love a stunty breakfast.
  • IchonIchon Senior Member Posts: 4,724Registered Users
    edited January 12
    Goblins on Wolves can do nice work vs stunty with crossbows (just not the gw). Squigs also can really mess with Dwarfs and Vampires. Goblins on spiders with their poison and bows have a role but they can also be easily be ignored.

    Safely ignore Arrer boyz but regular Gobos with bows are great sponges if you lack other options vs Dwarfs and Tomb Kings but the overall most useful ranged will be the Night Goblins and the Rock Lobba. Doom Divers unless you madly tech for them will not happen until you are nearly at the end of the campaign (by the time you build and move the army to the front).

    Trolls with a leadership banner are sometimes useful but I find them overall unreliable and rout too quickly even with a leadership banner though a regenerating banner and kept near Grimgor they perform ok but rarely will work well in armies led by low level Lords as they MUST have leadership bonus.

    Giants are also useful if not facing lots of ranged or anti-large such as vs TK, Vampires, or Empire.

    Boar boyz are simply too slow and too weak where the Wolf Riderz despite being even weaker are at least fast and can kite way better- they require heavy micro as a single mistake and they will rout/die.

    Boar Boyz Biguns are useful but very specific.

    The best GS units are the Sneaky Stabbers or whatever they are called, Black Orcs, Arachnoraks, Savage Orcs, and Night Goblins with Rock Lobba and the Doom Divers being handy when you don't want to be forced to charge across the map.
    YouTube, it takes over your mind and guides you to strange places like tutorials on how to talk to a giraffe.
  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,485Registered Users
    As greenskins, having a few weaker armies can be quite beneficial, because of the "waaagh"-mechanic.

    The problem with the greenskin roster is, that many units are not usefull against what they fight against in the early game, with the exception of Skarsnik and once you get out of the area, the enemy armies are so advanced, that you are likely sticking with what you used so far, given that you could not see the benefits, did not get the research or the talent points to imrprove those other units.

    Goblins are a great and cheap way to build income-armies, cheap armies, that are used to sack and raid.

    They are quite effective in dealing with human factions and some of the undead factions.

    As for Boar Boyz... you think they would be great against dwarves, but they are not. They are in fact supposed to be used as a counter to heavy cavalry, because they can trade extremely cost efficient. If you combine them with spider-riders, even the most elite cavalry unit, will get a beating.

    Wolfriders are one of the fastest cavs in the game, but not very powerfull. They are good for hunting human skirmishers, artillery and skirmish cavalry, but not quite good vs infantry.

    They should be considered like warhounds, although wolfrider archers are very costefficient as well, given that they can still be used as warhounds in melee as well as harassing even heavy cavalry easily.
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Posts: 787Registered Users
    Doom diver lack of AP, it late game useless arty. As far i remember there only 2 weak arty. Doom divers and bastiladon solar engine (but atleast he place debuff).

    And why tww1? Tww2 get beta Festag, there change on skills was a very cool.

    In tww2 Grimgor just weak, goblin lord a lot stronger in Festag.
  • kgmikgmi Posts: 88Registered Users
    @Ichon
    About trolls, I've read in various guides about their leadership being so bad that I was scared using them. Though I could see them as a nice early game unit for Wurzzag, for flanking and hammering enemies in the back.

    Giants I am gonna try out, guess the best way to use them vs anti large units is to hold them back, until art and spears are dealt with or busy, then swoop them in for mop up.

    For Night Goblins, I think their card read something like "weak against armour"? So I was thinking they're useless against Dwarfs

    @Sultschiem
    I had the most issues trying to make use of the Greenskin cav. I was sending my Boar Boyz and Wolf Riders to deal with Dwarf quarrelers and artillery, but they got smashed pretty hard on their way in. They did pretty good against other orc factions though but it just feels like I am using them wrong and inefficiently.
    I have never considered combining Boar Boyz with Spider Riders, gonna try that out.

    Also making cheap raiding and sacking stacks, would you always fill them up to 20? They pay for themselves pretty quickly? I am considering putting points into blue line for more raiding and sacking income for them. I am too scared to venture with my LLs and good armies around the map, because then chaos event fires and the bjornling doomstacks that spawn in the south, lay waste to my land.

    Is artillery a must have for an orc army btw? The lack of Doomdiver AP is making me consider ditching them for Rocklobbers, though idk how got they become with the full tech tree.

    @Boombastek91
    As for why I am still on WH1. I want to complete the campaign with every faction first, so I get the basic understanding on how they work and I am not overwhelmed in ME with all the WH2 factions in it as well. Also keeps my excitement up for when I am "finished" with WH1. Don't really feel like opting into beta, I just wait until it goes live and finish the remaining WH1 campaigns in the meantime.

    This is more for me getting ready and prepared to fully enjoy ME, where I can deploy all the things I have learned so far.

  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,485Registered Users
    kgmi said:

    @Ichon
    About trolls, I've read in various guides about their leadership being so bad that I was scared using them. Though I could see them as a nice early game unit for Wurzzag, for flanking and hammering enemies in the back.

    Giants I am gonna try out, guess the best way to use them vs anti large units is to hold them back, until art and spears are dealt with or busy, then swoop them in for mop up.

    For Night Goblins, I think their card read something like "weak against armour"? So I was thinking they're useless against Dwarfs

    @Sultschiem
    I had the most issues trying to make use of the Greenskin cav. I was sending my Boar Boyz and Wolf Riders to deal with Dwarf quarrelers and artillery, but they got smashed pretty hard on their way in. They did pretty good against other orc factions though but it just feels like I am using them wrong and inefficiently.
    I have never considered combining Boar Boyz with Spider Riders, gonna try that out.

    Also making cheap raiding and sacking stacks, would you always fill them up to 20? They pay for themselves pretty quickly? I am considering putting points into blue line for more raiding and sacking income for them. I am too scared to venture with my LLs and good armies around the map, because then chaos event fires and the bjornling doomstacks that spawn in the south, lay waste to my land.

    Is artillery a must have for an orc army btw? The lack of Doomdiver AP is making me consider ditching them for Rocklobbers, though idk how got they become with the full tech tree.

    @Boombastek91
    As for why I am still on WH1. I want to complete the campaign with every faction first, so I get the basic understanding on how they work and I am not overwhelmed in ME with all the WH2 factions in it as well. Also keeps my excitement up for when I am "finished" with WH1. Don't really feel like opting into beta, I just wait until it goes live and finish the remaining WH1 campaigns in the meantime.

    This is more for me getting ready and prepared to fully enjoy ME, where I can deploy all the things I have learned so far.

    Trolls are not supposed to be send into the meatgrinder on their own, because when a unit gets "surrounded" they get severe leadership penalties. Even if a group of goblins is around them, they will not rout that fast, also because the goblins will sponge the damage.

    They are quite good against shielded armored infantry, as they take little damage and dish out well, but against lets say greatweapon or dualweapon heavy infantry, they might rout actually without support. Nightgoblins and especially fanatics are a good choice, because they poison their enemies (plus the abilitiy)


    Do not use Boar Boys against dwarves...absolutely useless against those. Squig Hoppers and Squigs are better, same with Nasty Skulkers, Trolls.


    For your cheap raidsquad: should have enough that you can get a waaagh going, because when you manage to get a waaagh, try to sack a city.

    Blue and red line is recommended, particular the night goblin waaaghboss will make your goblins killermachines.

    Red line for the + attack for goblins when using a night goblin waaaghboss, then go for blue line, raid and sack-bonus.

    Otherwhise try to get the poison buff for the army, skirmisher boost etc.


    Its not as effective as with skarsnik given the lower upkeep, but as normal greenskins you have gold- and jewel-mines nearby.


    If you can manage to get 1 such squad into the empire or bretonnia, it will likely do quite good. Add in enough nasty skulkers so you can compete with dwarves and vampires too.

    Vampires are quite weak against spider and wolfrider-archers, since especially wolfrider archers are way too fast. (2 Spider riders to take care of direwolves cant harm if you focus on vampires).


    Another good option if you can make it that far.....Norsca..... has no walls, makes for good sacking, although attrition is annoying (but raiding camp helps).



    In mid and lategame... if you are using a night goblin waaaghboss, even the goblins can challenge a doomstack, given how insanely their stats are beeing boosted (plus if you get a shaman and waaagh-ability off).



    One of the greenskins best tools for victory are their buff and debuff-magic. Getting 1 shaman per army is heavily adviced. Hell, if you manage to buff boar boyz, they can actually get usefull ^^
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,018Registered Users
    edited January 12
    Having never played a serious Greenskins campaign, the only thing I can say is first wipe out the ones with the short legs. Then wipe out the ones with the long legs. And finally, wipe out the ones with the long ears. I suspect that will make for a very satisfying campaign.

    There's my completely unhelpful advise :D
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 9,853Registered Users
    Well thanks to the "supply lines" mechanic, a elite units spam strategy is very efficient for most races.
    4 Fully Independent Monogods Armies would be great for a Storyline about the Great Game in Total War: Warhammer 3.
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Posts: 787Registered Users

    kgmi said:

    @Ichon
    About trolls, I've read in various guides about their leadership being so bad that I was scared using them. Though I could see them as a nice early game unit for Wurzzag, for flanking and hammering enemies in the back.

    Giants I am gonna try out, guess the best way to use them vs anti large units is to hold them back, until art and spears are dealt with or busy, then swoop them in for mop up.

    For Night Goblins, I think their card read something like "weak against armour"? So I was thinking they're useless against Dwarfs

    @Sultschiem
    I had the most issues trying to make use of the Greenskin cav. I was sending my Boar Boyz and Wolf Riders to deal with Dwarf quarrelers and artillery, but they got smashed pretty hard on their way in. They did pretty good against other orc factions though but it just feels like I am using them wrong and inefficiently.
    I have never considered combining Boar Boyz with Spider Riders, gonna try that out.

    Also making cheap raiding and sacking stacks, would you always fill them up to 20? They pay for themselves pretty quickly? I am considering putting points into blue line for more raiding and sacking income for them. I am too scared to venture with my LLs and good armies around the map, because then chaos event fires and the bjornling doomstacks that spawn in the south, lay waste to my land.

    Is artillery a must have for an orc army btw? The lack of Doomdiver AP is making me consider ditching them for Rocklobbers, though idk how got they become with the full tech tree.

    @Boombastek91
    As for why I am still on WH1. I want to complete the campaign with every faction first, so I get the basic understanding on how they work and I am not overwhelmed in ME with all the WH2 factions in it as well. Also keeps my excitement up for when I am "finished" with WH1. Don't really feel like opting into beta, I just wait until it goes live and finish the remaining WH1 campaigns in the meantime.

    This is more for me getting ready and prepared to fully enjoy ME, where I can deploy all the things I have learned so far.

    Trolls are not supposed to be send into the meatgrinder on their own, because when a unit gets "surrounded" they get severe leadership penalties. Even if a group of goblins is around them, they will not rout that fast, also because the goblins will sponge the damage.

    They are quite good against shielded armored infantry, as they take little damage and dish out well, but against lets say greatweapon or dualweapon heavy infantry, they might rout actually without support. Nightgoblins and especially fanatics are a good choice, because they poison their enemies (plus the abilitiy)


    Do not use Boar Boys against dwarves...absolutely useless against those. Squig Hoppers and Squigs are better, same with Nasty Skulkers, Trolls.


    For your cheap raidsquad: should have enough that you can get a waaagh going, because when you manage to get a waaagh, try to sack a city.

    Blue and red line is recommended, particular the night goblin waaaghboss will make your goblins killermachines.

    Red line for the + attack for goblins when using a night goblin waaaghboss, then go for blue line, raid and sack-bonus.

    Otherwhise try to get the poison buff for the army, skirmisher boost etc.


    Its not as effective as with skarsnik given the lower upkeep, but as normal greenskins you have gold- and jewel-mines nearby.


    If you can manage to get 1 such squad into the empire or bretonnia, it will likely do quite good. Add in enough nasty skulkers so you can compete with dwarves and vampires too.

    Vampires are quite weak against spider and wolfrider-archers, since especially wolfrider archers are way too fast. (2 Spider riders to take care of direwolves cant harm if you focus on vampires).


    Another good option if you can make it that far.....Norsca..... has no walls, makes for good sacking, although attrition is annoying (but raiding camp helps).



    In mid and lategame... if you are using a night goblin waaaghboss, even the goblins can challenge a doomstack, given how insanely their stats are beeing boosted (plus if you get a shaman and waaagh-ability off).



    One of the greenskins best tools for victory are their buff and debuff-magic. Getting 1 shaman per army is heavily adviced. Hell, if you manage to buff boar boyz, they can actually get usefull ^^
    Can't agree about shaman. Foot gork only spell to waste winds of magic. This spell include in top 4 spell in game.
  • kgmikgmi Posts: 88Registered Users
    @Sultschiem
    Thx, I will be trying that out, but it feels like the best way to get a hang of the orc units is via small custom battles, to test them in various situations. I found the GS the hardest faction to play to its full potential so far. Grimgor literally carrying my campaign solo. I only play on normal until I feel secure with the faction and can prepare for various worst case scenarios.

    I guess most of you play on very hard and are wondering why I am so scared of getting backstabbed and rolled early on, when playing on normal, because even bad army comps probably work if you know how to use them.

    About supply lines though, what do they do? I have never seen anything in the game mentioning a mechanic like that, not in WH1 SFO anyway, which is what I play the most. Does it affect reinforcement speed?

    Having never played a serious Greenskins campaign, the only thing I can say is first wipe out the ones with the short legs. Then wipe out the ones with the long legs. And finally, wipe out the ones with the long ears. I suspect that will make for a very satisfying campaign.

    There's my completely unhelpful advise :D

    Well I asked Grimgor for advice on how to play his faction. He just said "you get da choppa out and start smashin' some humie gits!"
    Wiser words have never been spoken
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 9,853Registered Users
    edited January 12
    kgmi said:

    @Sultschiem
    Thx, I will be trying that out, but it feels like the best way to get a hang of the orc units is via small custom battles, to test them in various situations. I found the GS the hardest faction to play to its full potential so far. Grimgor literally carrying my campaign solo. I only play on normal until I feel secure with the faction and can prepare for various worst case scenarios.

    I guess most of you play on very hard and are wondering why I am so scared of getting backstabbed and rolled early on, when playing on normal, because even bad army comps probably work if you know how to use them.

    About supply lines though, what do they do? I have never seen anything in the game mentioning a mechanic like that, not in WH1 SFO anyway, which is what I play the most. Does it affect reinforcement speed?

    The "supply lines" in Total War: Warhammer Trilogy is mostly a "balancing mechanic" that don't make much sense, for making it harder to field multiple stacks, all it does is encouraging a elite units spam, because having multiple stacks of low tier units tend to cost too much thanks to that mechanic.
    4 Fully Independent Monogods Armies would be great for a Storyline about the Great Game in Total War: Warhammer 3.
  • kgmikgmi Posts: 88Registered Users
    @Tayvar
    Oh, so is that the "your total army upkeep goes up by X% for recruiting a new Lord" ?
    That'd be pretty weak sauce. I was thinking it's some kind of "distance to owned land" modifier, which makes replenishment slower, the further away you are from your home
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 9,853Registered Users
    kgmi said:

    @Tayvar
    Oh, so is that the "your total army upkeep goes up by X% for recruiting a new Lord" ?
    That'd be pretty weak sauce. I was thinking it's some kind of "distance to owned land" modifier, which makes replenishment slower, the further away you are from your home

    Correct, a more realistic supply lines mechanic would be featured in Total War: Three Kingdoms.
    4 Fully Independent Monogods Armies would be great for a Storyline about the Great Game in Total War: Warhammer 3.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,201Registered Users
    I think there might be more to it than that, honestly. Sometimes when I have armies in foreign lands, or am laying siege, I've noticed that my income drops dramatically (and no it's not due to moved lord effects).
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 3,011Registered Users
    I have not played GS in a while. But my strategy was to only settle my immediate area, then raid and sack small towns to get a huge amount banked up.

    Leave Grimgor/Wurzag/Azhag at home to defend or to pick off armies that wander too close. Use a cheap horde of Orc Boyz and Gobbos to go out and pillage. And ONLY attack easy targets. Play the battles no matter how small in order to get as few losses as possible. Start going North towards Bretonia or the Empire. A roaming Waaagh of cheap units can actually make it pretty far because Bret defenders suck and Empire towns tend 6o have better defenses, but less troops in each smaller town. That, and their chamces of intercepting you in the Underway seem to be far less.

    Build up your main army with whatever you can. And keep killing Dwarfs that get close.

    By mid game money will turn into an issue again, because your main army and your "Expeditionary WAAAAGH" will start costing more. You'll probably settle the E-Waaagh somewhere in the mountains near Bretonia or the Border princes. Or you can march them home and re-sack everyone. The issue with that is, I always lost them each time I did that. You get some income BUT all the guys you're at war with are looking for you now.

    You'll be ok to start expanding like crazy now. Rebellions will just be more income. You can push South (or East in the case of Wurzag.) And take all of Karak Azul's territory. And Queek's if he still even exists.

    Late game? I have no clue at this point.
    What I used to do was load up on Black Orcs and artillary then push in each direction until the victory screen...


  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,201Registered Users
    When a Waaagh! sacks an enemy settlement, you do NOT get that money. The Waaagh! does. What it does with it? Nothing. If you're going to send a Waaagh! out like that, be sure it's against targets you don't want to sack for yourself.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 3,011Registered Users
    edited January 12
    Itharus said:

    When a Waaagh! sacks an enemy settlement, you do NOT get that money. The Waaagh! does. What it does with it? Nothing. If you're going to send a Waaagh! out like that, be sure it's against targets you don't want to sack for yourself.

    I mean an army that you created. Hence me saying "full of cheap orc boyz and gobbos." And mentioning raiding...and sacking...for money.

    And playing battles.
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