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Slight Skaven buff suggestion

Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 4,983Registered Users
After playing skaven quite a bit recently i have a small buff suggestion that might help overall performance without being a major game play change.

I will first mention that i actually feel most skaven units are quite decent for their cost, not all but most but to be honest i have not used them all regularly so it very well might be that i'm simply not experienced enough with some of them to determine what specific buffs they do deserve, but one thing thats very common is the skaven LD and issues with undead factions as a whole, this mainly comes down to ld but staying within skaven theme its not appropriate to buff the units ld, so it came down to how do you buff ld without buffing the units ld, and here is my idea.

"Strength in numbers" should add +1LD for every non expandable unit within 55m of the unit capped at +5. This would mean most skaven units in the roster would get about +3 to +5 LD but any isolated units would not benefit from this bonus. With a cap at 5 this should be an anti blobing measure.

Now there is one specific unit that i do think needs a direct buff and that is stormvermin (halberds) - now i might get some slack for it BUT i do think their performance vs cav and large is fine, where i do think they lack badly is how much they underperform vs other units compared to sword and shield version, this might be because there is no great weapon variant, this is problematic in my view because at such cost skaven who guess opponents army composition incorrectly are at a great disadvantage in their elite section.
My suggestion for Stormvermin Halberds is -4 Bonus v Large, +3MA, +3 AP Weapon Strengths, this should keep their performance vs cav about the same level but should be quite a boost vs infantry.

I do think those two changes would help skaven quite a big deal overall.

Comments

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 2,005Registered Users
    I like the first idea a lot actually!
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 294Registered Users

    I like the first idea a lot actually!

    Mee too, very thematic!
  • ystyst Posts: 4,097Registered Users
    edited January 12
    Whats this lol, ive been saying storm hal r trash since the beginning. Ppl r defending tooth and nail they r super fine, incredibly powerful in fact, u know, due to “numbers”. Last time i tested them, $650 emp halbediers close to or rekt them lol. But yea with depth guards hal in game now they r no longer the top 2 worst hal.

    Your str in numbers may add an unneeded level of complexity to the game. May as well just make it additonal ld to simply things.

    Too many bad units on skaven roster, horrible gutters of all variants, all slingers sucks terribly, funnily the best ones r slaves slingers. Then again they will waste 6/9 of your slots. Vermin shield r actually not too bad, could use slight here. Vermin hals just pure trash.

    Horrible death runners, funny thing is, wheres all those doom wheels gone? What happened to them, they r pretty god mode before, zapping drag princes and stuffs. Something bad mustve affected them
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  • ystyst Posts: 4,097Registered Users
    edited January 12
    Chaos war - 36 att 44 def 36 str. $750
    Chaos hal - 30 att 38 def 34 str. $850

    Vermin - 36 att 36 def 34 str. $1050
    Ver hal - 24 att 30 def 27 str. $1000

    As all can see, they ARE THE ONLY variant outlier in game, no one ever has a hal version cheaper than shield. Using chaos war as example, the difference r 6 att 6 def, 2 str. By that logic, vermin hal should be on 30 att and 32 str.

    Meaning vermin hal r missing a whooping 6 att and 5 wep str. HOWEVER, they r cheaper than shield variant. Hence ive been saying buff vermin hal around +3 att +2-3 ap for months and months.

    Obviously since no one care about skaven, all the replies r pretty much in the omg they r performing so well because “numbers”. Basically u should refer back to some of the vermin halberd threads for your answers here. Or wait for the “numbers” squad to turn up.
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 2,145Registered Users
    edited January 12
    Death Runners trash? They give elite cavs a tough fight even when charged directly. When mixed in vs for example Dwarfs, they let Clan Rats or Storm Vermin trade above their cost. Also excellent unspottable smoke bomb to snipe arty whenever you want or do interesting flanking maneuvers.

    Stormvermin shield not too bad? They have 35ish MA and MD, 90 armor, a shield and 120 models, even more than Grave Guards. In their case, where the emphasis is on grinding as opposed to dealing heavy damage to large armored monsters as in the case of the halberd variant, 120 models matters a lot, all that need to be killed at 90 armor what the hell. Easily one of the best sword & shield infantries in the game only held back slightly by the dominance of armor and AP but they do wonders combod with death runners/-30armor debuff spell.

    Are we even playing the same game?
  • ystyst Posts: 4,097Registered Users
    edited January 12
    ^ apparently not. If we r, there should be a lot of calls for $950 or even less for them.

    I mean just go test graveguard vs vermin shield. I wanna see how this $1050 “steamroll” a $750

    Lets leave death runners out, too lazy to discuss something that bad. More interested in stormvermin

    Can stormvermin evenbeat mara champ? I mean thats another trash unit which happens to be cheaper than vermin sword lol, if they cant even beat that, lots of face palm gonna happen
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  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Posts: 1,043Registered Users
    edited January 12
    CW and CW Halberd are not even better than Vermin....CW Halberd must be the third worst Halberd infs in this game,CW are the second worst shield infs in this game...
  • ystyst Posts: 4,097Registered Users

    CW and CW Halberd are not even better than Vermin....CW Halberd must be the third worst Halberd infs in this game,CW are the second worst shield infs in this game...

    Nah those spot been taken by depth gaurd hal(absolute worst halberd in game), follow by poleman at arms then vermin hal. As for chaos warrior, evidence point towards the top 3 best $750 shield
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  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Posts: 1,043Registered Users
    yst said:

    CW and CW Halberd are not even better than Vermin....CW Halberd must be the third worst Halberd infs in this game,CW are the second worst shield infs in this game...

    Nah those spot been taken by depth gaurd hal(absolute worst halberd in game), follow by poleman at arms then vermin hal. As for chaos warrior, evidence point towards the top 3 best $750 shield
    Emmmm...we have only 3 $750 shiled...(GG,TG,CW...)so there is nothing wrong to say CW are top 3 best $750 shield infs...

    But actually,CW lose to lv3 LB(737)and they don't have charge defence,Immune to psychology,encourage,less 8 LS.

    They also lose to GG,they are not undying units,so don't immnue to fear and terror,don't cause feat,also can rount...

    And They lose to Shiled Saurus(800)I totally accpet with this cause Saurus should be the best $750 around infs in this game...

    CW can only beat TG,but TG are undying units too,both have advantages...but I like undying units better

    Personally I don't like CW and CW halberd at all,as a Chaos main you can see i always say how good the CWGW are but i never said CW and CW halberd are good,they are just so bad...

    Anyway this is a skaven thread,i won't talk about CW anymore in this thread,just want to complain a bit when i saw the CW and CW halberd...
  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Posts: 1,043Registered Users
    Should we give more Anti large bonus on hellpit?it have 17 anti large only,and low base MA(42 for a 1800 monster),it is tanky but srsly skaven have no good unit to support it,hellpit should be better itself.
  • MarkroxMarkrox Posts: 92Registered Users
    edited January 12
    Removing bonus vs Large off Storm Vermin is a bad idea, you said yourself you like their anti large performance, taking AL away and adding regular damage to an AP unit is a nerf in that respect. If you actually want to buff their performance, give them a minor MD buff. I agree they feel slightly weak though.

    I like the LD idea, encourages the "swarm" playstyle. 5 morale is a pretty big buff considering the base leadership, would require some testing to make sure most skaven units are still cowards and run (plague furnace degen aura might be an issue if they stick around too long)

    I'd personally like army selection to go up from 20 slots to 40, allow skaven (and other races) go wider if they choose to. Additionally, skaven summons shouldn't degenerate and rout to self damage. Stupid side effect of a band aid fix to try and balance Undead summons.
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  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 645Registered Users
    Since when do CW lose to Saurus? Unless this changed in the last patch they beat Saurus fairly handily.
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  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 240Registered Users
    İ had also noticed that SV halberds have strangely very bad stats to be considered as elite infantry of the skaven, especially for that price.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 4,983Registered Users
    Markrox said:

    Removing bonus vs Large off Storm Vermin is a bad idea, you said yourself you like their anti large performance, taking AL away and adding regular damage to an AP unit is a nerf in that respect. If you actually want to buff their performance, give them a minor MD buff. I agree they feel slightly weak though.

    I like the LD idea, encourages the "swarm" playstyle. 5 morale is a pretty big buff considering the base leadership, would require some testing to make sure most skaven units are still cowards and run (plague furnace degen aura might be an issue if they stick around too long)

    I'd personally like army selection to go up from 20 slots to 40, allow skaven (and other races) go wider if they choose to. Additionally, skaven summons shouldn't degenerate and rout to self damage. Stupid side effect of a band aid fix to try and balance Undead summons.

    Its adding AP damage not regural so its a buff overall, quite decent one.
  • ystyst Posts: 4,097Registered Users

    İ had also noticed that SV halberds have strangely very bad stats to be considered as elite infantry of the skaven, especially for that price.

    They suck, have always been bad. They r essentially a unit of $650 emp halbediers with worse stats where u pay $350 just for xtra 60 armor
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 14,980Registered Users
    Yeah Stormvermin Halberds either need a severe pricecut or a substantial buff. CW Halberds are 150 cheaper but outperform them easily.

    As for small buffs,

    +20 muzzle velocity for Globadiers and Bombardiers so they can actually hit flying units
    +2 ammo for shuriken Gutter Runners and Night Runners, they run out of ammo way too fast and then are severely reduced in effectiveness
    100 armor for Warpfirethrowers, that's the least they can do. Can't be that the weapon team that needs to expose itself the most is made more vulnerable than those that can hide behind units
    100 armor for Warlock Engineer and swap the effect of the Warpstone armor with that of Queek's Warpshard armor

  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 187Registered Users

    Yeah Stormvermin Halberds either need a severe pricecut or a substantial buff. CW Halberds are 150 cheaper but outperform them easily.

    As for small buffs,

    +20 muzzle velocity for Globadiers and Bombardiers so they can actually hit flying units
    +2 ammo for shuriken Gutter Runners and Night Runners, they run out of ammo way too fast and then are severely reduced in effectiveness
    100 armor for Warpfirethrowers, that's the least they can do. Can't be that the weapon team that needs to expose itself the most is made more vulnerable than those that can hide behind units
    100 armor for Warlock Engineer and swap the effect of the Warpstone armor with that of Queek's Warpshard armor

    Love the idea of swapping the engineer and queeks armour. The DPS might need to be dropped (damage auras can get toxic really quickly, especially with summons) but would still be a good change and make queek far more viable
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