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Royal Hippogryph Knights

13

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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,736Registered Users
    edited January 13
    Wyvern2 said:

    No real argument with the analysis, but one thing i noticed with hippos dueling big single models is that the single model seems to get staggered out of the surround and then youre stuck with only 2 hippo models attacking, it's really awkward and tends to screw them in the air fights(this seemed to be the case when i tried to fight the TG with them).

    They can beat TG if they get a surround. But they can bug out so like 2 of them is fighting and the rest just watching.

    maybe if CA could improve this kind of behaviour it would help them immensly.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,263Registered Users


    They can beat TG if they get a surround. But they can bug out so like 2 of them is fighting and the rest just watching.

    You need manualy pull them with move order to get surround. Without bats, 1 RHK would beat TG. And considering that TG is AL specialist that has low MA vs infantry and RHK are quite universal it is not a bad result. Out of all flying cav of Bret they are the most solid one.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,334Registered Users
    Louis_1 said:

    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    They beat any cavalry unit in the game, what more do you want? They don't need anything fancy.

    ? Thats just false... They looke vs demis, blood knights all the high tier anti-large units
    No they beat blood knights and grails easily. haven't tried vs demis but they are monstrous cav so I wouldn't expect rhk to do as well vs them.

    Edit: tested them vs royal altdorf gryphites and fireborn, RHK win.
    Well **** my testing haha, im not gonna rgue on that


  • ystyst Posts: 5,868Registered Users
    edited January 13
    U will always get better results testing air on land with ai.

    Ai move the cav upon impact, u will not get real data as they do not respond to the threat immediately.
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  • konosmgrkonosmgr Posts: 161Registered Users
    edited January 13
    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    They beat any cavalry unit in the game, what more do you want? They don't need anything fancy.

    ? Thats just false... They looke vs demis, blood knights all the high tier anti-large units
    No they beat blood knights and grails easily. haven't tried vs demis but they are monstrous cav so I wouldn't expect rhk to do as well vs them.

    Edit: tested them vs royal altdorf gryphites and fireborn, RHK win.
    Well **** my testing haha, im not gonna rgue on that
    I just tested them vs the altdorf gryphites. The gryhpites won 3-0, with about 2k hp left on average so there isn't much room for a low sample error. THE RHK got the charge off and the gryphites didn't but the trick is pulling through and surrounding them.

    Update: I did fireborn as well, they won 4-0 with 2.2k hp left on average

    I also did GK, they won 3-0 with about 1k hp left on average.

    I'll update when I do blood knights.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,200Registered Users
    konosmgr said:

    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    They beat any cavalry unit in the game, what more do you want? They don't need anything fancy.

    ? Thats just false... They looke vs demis, blood knights all the high tier anti-large units
    No they beat blood knights and grails easily. haven't tried vs demis but they are monstrous cav so I wouldn't expect rhk to do as well vs them.

    Edit: tested them vs royal altdorf gryphites and fireborn, RHK win.
    Well **** my testing haha, im not gonna rgue on that
    I just tested them vs the altdorf gryphites. The gryhpites won 3-0, with about 2k hp left on average so there isn't much room for a low sample error. THE RHK got the charge off and the gryphites didn't but the trick is pulling through and surrounding them.
    hmm interesting ok then, but without surround the RHK win in your test yeah? I guess the way to avoid RHK getting surrounded is to engage with other cav first then send in the RHK to deliver the killing blow.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,868Registered Users
    Land vs air is never a good test. Too much factors on both side.

    The defender can evade and mess up the charge. The attacker can divert the charge.

    And vs ai is even harder, u can switch the commited fight again, by moving. Its not as easy as inf vs inf fight where u will not make such risky moves
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  • another505another505 Posts: 948Registered Users
    I mean its 2k it should beat things cheaper than itself
  • ystyst Posts: 5,868Registered Users
    Not just that really. They r frikking ultimates, when ppl say ultimates unit of a faction.

    U go star drag, shags, big crazy dinos, something that has a huge impact on the field.

    This bloody ultimate likely has less impact than a grail tbh.
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  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,263Registered Users

    I mean its 2k it should beat things cheaper than itself

    It is flying. Ability to fly has significant price tag outside of battle performance.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,334Registered Users
    yst said:

    Not just that really. They r frikking ultimates, when ppl say ultimates unit of a faction.

    U go star drag, shags, big crazy dinos, something that has a huge impact on the field.

    This bloody ultimate likely has less impact than a grail tbh.

    Agree it doesnt feel like the best bretonnia can offer... they should be a devastating force with tons of damage but low durability, but lets be honnest they are better than they were at launch where half HP RHK would loose in melee to a crossbowmen unit...


  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,334Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    I mean its 2k it should beat things cheaper than itself

    It is flying. Ability to fly has significant price tag outside of battle performance.
    Agreed, but Dragons are extremely powerfull in pure stats even without flying they are on par with shaggoths even if shag are dedicated anti-large monsters. Flying probably should have a price tag of 200-300, just look at pegasus knights, they are 300 gold over realm, but are considered underpowered, RPK are 100 more than GK, but considered good, there is some other factors, but you get the idea, flyers with their charge should beat cavalry at the same price tag, because you take out the best attrivute of cav, wich is charges

    Idk of I was clear, but I understand myself


  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,200Registered Users
    edited January 13
    Kranox said:

    tank3487 said:

    I mean its 2k it should beat things cheaper than itself

    It is flying. Ability to fly has significant price tag outside of battle performance.
    Agreed, but Dragons are extremely powerfull in pure stats even without flying they are on par with shaggoths even if shag are dedicated anti-large monsters. Flying probably should have a price tag of 200-300, just look at pegasus knights, they are 300 gold over realm, but are considered underpowered, RPK are 100 more than GK, but considered good, there is some other factors, but you get the idea, flyers with their charge should beat cavalry at the same price tag, because you take out the best attrivute of cav, wich is charges

    Idk of I was clear, but I understand myself
    what do you by "on par with shaggoths"? cos last time I checked shaggoths smash any dragon, even star dragons despite its high combat stats.


    @yst you still haven't answered my question. What exactly do you want them to be able to do? and what do you suggest, you keep saying they are bad and have "low impact" but you say nothing about how you think they should be improved.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,334Registered Users
    Louis_1 said:

    Kranox said:

    tank3487 said:

    I mean its 2k it should beat things cheaper than itself

    It is flying. Ability to fly has significant price tag outside of battle performance.
    Agreed, but Dragons are extremely powerfull in pure stats even without flying they are on par with shaggoths even if shag are dedicated anti-large monsters. Flying probably should have a price tag of 200-300, just look at pegasus knights, they are 300 gold over realm, but are considered underpowered, RPK are 100 more than GK, but considered good, there is some other factors, but you get the idea, flyers with their charge should beat cavalry at the same price tag, because you take out the best attrivute of cav, wich is charges

    Idk of I was clear, but I understand myself
    what do you by "on par with shaggoths"? cos last time I checked shaggoths smash any dragon, even star dragons despite its high combat stats.


    @yst you still haven't answered my question. What exactly do you want them to be able to do? and what do you suggest, you keep saying they are bad and have "low impact" but you say nothing about how you think they should be improved.
    In terms of basic stats, they have around the same HP, better combat stats, so in pure ground combat they are actually really close, its just that shaggoths are anti-large, for the star dragon stats on foot 2000 gold would be about the right price, then you pay 400 more gold for Flying and Breath attacks


  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,334Registered Users
    I personally only want the to have a better damage output, atm its kinda on the low side, being close to troll WS, but with 6 models instead of 12


  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,200Registered Users
    Kranox said:

    I personally only want the to have a better damage output, atm its kinda on the low side, being close to troll WS, but with 6 models instead of 12

    Since they are primarily a cycle charging unit, what do you think about increasing the charge bonus by about 10 instead of a weapon strength increase? That way they get more attack and WS when its really needed instead of making them better in prolonged combat.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,334Registered Users
    Louis_1 said:

    Kranox said:

    I personally only want the to have a better damage output, atm its kinda on the low side, being close to troll WS, but with 6 models instead of 12

    Since they are primarily a cycle charging unit, what do you think about increasing the charge bonus by about 10 instead of a weapon strength increase? That way they get more attack and WS when its really needed instead of making them better in prolonged combat.
    That would be a good idea too,

    This gets my seal of approval


  • konosmgrkonosmgr Posts: 161Registered Users
    Louis_1 said:

    konosmgr said:

    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    They beat any cavalry unit in the game, what more do you want? They don't need anything fancy.

    ? Thats just false... They looke vs demis, blood knights all the high tier anti-large units
    No they beat blood knights and grails easily. haven't tried vs demis but they are monstrous cav so I wouldn't expect rhk to do as well vs them.

    Edit: tested them vs royal altdorf gryphites and fireborn, RHK win.
    Well **** my testing haha, im not gonna rgue on that
    I just tested them vs the altdorf gryphites. The gryhpites won 3-0, with about 2k hp left on average so there isn't much room for a low sample error. THE RHK got the charge off and the gryphites didn't but the trick is pulling through and surrounding them.
    hmm interesting ok then, but without surround the RHK win in your test yeah? I guess the way to avoid RHK getting surrounded is to engage with other cav first then send in the RHK to deliver the killing blow.
    Well yeah without surrounding they win, but that's not optimal play.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,736Registered Users
    konosmgr said:

    Louis_1 said:

    konosmgr said:

    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    They beat any cavalry unit in the game, what more do you want? They don't need anything fancy.

    ? Thats just false... They looke vs demis, blood knights all the high tier anti-large units
    No they beat blood knights and grails easily. haven't tried vs demis but they are monstrous cav so I wouldn't expect rhk to do as well vs them.

    Edit: tested them vs royal altdorf gryphites and fireborn, RHK win.
    Well **** my testing haha, im not gonna rgue on that
    I just tested them vs the altdorf gryphites. The gryhpites won 3-0, with about 2k hp left on average so there isn't much room for a low sample error. THE RHK got the charge off and the gryphites didn't but the trick is pulling through and surrounding them.
    hmm interesting ok then, but without surround the RHK win in your test yeah? I guess the way to avoid RHK getting surrounded is to engage with other cav first then send in the RHK to deliver the killing blow.
    Well yeah without surrounding they win, but that's not optimal play.
    I tested them against Fireborn,a nd RHK win with 2-2,2k Hp left.

    Against Demigryph Knights with halberds RHK win with around half health.
  • konosmgrkonosmgr Posts: 161Registered Users

    konosmgr said:

    Louis_1 said:

    konosmgr said:

    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    Kranox said:

    Louis_1 said:

    They beat any cavalry unit in the game, what more do you want? They don't need anything fancy.

    ? Thats just false... They looke vs demis, blood knights all the high tier anti-large units
    No they beat blood knights and grails easily. haven't tried vs demis but they are monstrous cav so I wouldn't expect rhk to do as well vs them.

    Edit: tested them vs royal altdorf gryphites and fireborn, RHK win.
    Well **** my testing haha, im not gonna rgue on that
    I just tested them vs the altdorf gryphites. The gryhpites won 3-0, with about 2k hp left on average so there isn't much room for a low sample error. THE RHK got the charge off and the gryphites didn't but the trick is pulling through and surrounding them.
    hmm interesting ok then, but without surround the RHK win in your test yeah? I guess the way to avoid RHK getting surrounded is to engage with other cav first then send in the RHK to deliver the killing blow.
    Well yeah without surrounding they win, but that's not optimal play.
    I tested them against Fireborn,a nd RHK win with 2-2,2k Hp left.

    Against Demigryph Knights with halberds RHK win with around half health.
    Again, if you just attack the RHK and don't surround them you are gonna lose. If you have doubts, I'd gladly test it with you.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,868Registered Users
    Louis_1 said:

    @yst you still haven't answered my question. What exactly do you want them to be able to do? and what do you suggest, you keep saying they are bad and have "low impact" but you say nothing about how you think they should be improved.

    Pretty simple, being bret ultimate they should very comfortably outperform any unit in the roster by a huge margin. Ie Shag.

    They arent too far too, plenty of suggestions here, vig making them unique as would breath to drag. Some stats adjustment, dmg increase as they r a bit on the low side, charge even, gotta be a solid unit, otherwise pointless throwing $2000 on it
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  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,334Registered Users
    yst said:

    Louis_1 said:

    @yst you still haven't answered my question. What exactly do you want them to be able to do? and what do you suggest, you keep saying they are bad and have "low impact" but you say nothing about how you think they should be improved.

    Pretty simple, being bret ultimate they should very comfortably outperform any unit in the roster by a huge margin. Ie Shag.

    They arent too far too, plenty of suggestions here, vig making them unique as would breath to drag. Some stats adjustment, dmg increase as they r a bit on the low side, charge even, gotta be a solid unit, otherwise pointless throwing $2000 on it
    By saying outperform you are saying Like be confortably better than other bret units since they cost 400 more than their closest counterparts and not like they should be overpowered right ?

    Just want to make it clear


  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,065Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    yst said:

    ^ they were never good for a $2k, ever.

    They would be pretty nice at 1.8k but i doubt ppl want that instead of a stronger unit.

    Ure paying $500 xtra in addition of a grail knight, and u get... this fat bird knight thing on air thats just lacklustre.

    yea 1800g and then what? Would you like an active ability that gives you a free win too? They currently have over 600 WS all together, which is more than any Dragon, splash damage, 20% physical resistance, possibility to cast Regrowth on them, Terror, 90 speed and 90 armor along with very decent stats. They could see a +2 MD although this would require tuning down Bret cavalry a bit to not make it overpowered, but honestly they are perfectly fine, they shouldn't be autopick like some people here would love them to be.
    in all honsty i don;t know if you are taken seriously anymore in bretonnian threads :D
    In any threads. Although in this particular case I should notice that representation of RHK as pushovers and TG as absolute win button is biased. You say that RHK loose to SD ? Same case with TG and unlike RHK with their forced surround trick TG is single mondel unit wich is trashed horribly. And his hitbox was nerfed significantly. And you can compare their perfomance against armored infantry as well ( you can account breath but in real battle it is sometimes hard to use against messed formation of inf. - TG shriek is far better as bonus shot against low entities ; e.g. you can oneshot one chariot model per cast ). Buff their WS as mentioned above and they will be fine ( and maybe + 5 CB ).
    P.S. Just for laugh : try one unit of Harpies against TG and RHK. You will be surprised.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,925Registered Users
    yst said:

    Louis_1 said:

    @yst you still haven't answered my question. What exactly do you want them to be able to do? and what do you suggest, you keep saying they are bad and have "low impact" but you say nothing about how you think they should be improved.

    Pretty simple, being bret ultimate they should very comfortably outperform any unit in the roster by a huge margin. Ie Shag.

    They arent too far too, plenty of suggestions here, vig making them unique as would breath to drag. Some stats adjustment, dmg increase as they r a bit on the low side, charge even, gotta be a solid unit, otherwise pointless throwing $2000 on it
    lol this argument is really silly, they are decently balanced atm, creating a broken unit because “other factions may or may not have broken units too” is just stupid.

    Bret ultimate is already there btw, 1500g Grail Knights with 15 AP that supposedly was needed to deal with Chaos/LZM and with perfect vigor worth at least 150g which GK get for free.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,334Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    yst said:

    Louis_1 said:

    @yst you still haven't answered my question. What exactly do you want them to be able to do? and what do you suggest, you keep saying they are bad and have "low impact" but you say nothing about how you think they should be improved.

    Pretty simple, being bret ultimate they should very comfortably outperform any unit in the roster by a huge margin. Ie Shag.

    They arent too far too, plenty of suggestions here, vig making them unique as would breath to drag. Some stats adjustment, dmg increase as they r a bit on the low side, charge even, gotta be a solid unit, otherwise pointless throwing $2000 on it
    lol this argument is really silly, they are decently balanced atm, creating a broken unit because “other factions may or may not have broken units too” is just stupid.

    Bret ultimate is already there btw, 1500g Grail Knights with 15 AP that supposedly was needed to deal with Chaos/LZM and with perfect vigor worth at least 150g which GK get for free.
    Read what I said just after its just that what he wrote wasnt really clear, but thats not what he said.


  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,263Registered Users
    Kranox said:


    Agreed, but Dragons are extremely powerfull in pure stats even without flying they are on par with shaggoths even if shag are dedicated anti-large monsters.

    Even now RHK(who are more universal unit vs both cav and infantry) would win against similar price TG(who are AL specialist) if you ensure surround by manual pull, it is quite good result for RHK. And TG would get huge hitbox nerf on next patch that i suspect would make RHK job even easier.
    As for Dragons, some of them deserve minor nerf.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,334Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Kranox said:


    Agreed, but Dragons are extremely powerfull in pure stats even without flying they are on par with shaggoths even if shag are dedicated anti-large monsters.

    Even now RHK(who are more universal unit vs both cav and infantry) would win against similar price TG(who are AL specialist) if you ensure surround by manual pull, it is quite good result for RHK. And TG would get huge hitbox nerf on next patch that i suspect would make RHK job even easier.
    As for Dragons, some of them deserve minor nerf.
    But RHK even if they are on the price level of Dragons and TG, they are not single entities, wich makes them hard to compare, they are quite unique in their own way. I just believe they need a little bit more damage, or maybe even a small Anti-large bonus


  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,925Registered Users
    edited January 14
    it's not like everything that costs a lot needs to be OP in comparison to the competition, otherwise we get into an endless vicious cycle: buff RHK -> buff Star Dragon -> buff Terrorgheist -> buff Forest Dragon -> buff Shaggoth -> buff RHK -> buff Star Dragon...

    RHK really are an alright unit, not stellar but not everything deserves to be Grail Knights worthy, especially within 1 single faction.

    I really agree with Lotus here except I don't think Polearms should get CDvA especially since they're peasants and more elite halberds like Black Guard don't get this. CDvA should be rare, maybe give them minor stat buff instead.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,317Registered Users
    Polearms are god awful for their cost, outside of dropping their price to like 450-475(the unit is legitimately not worth more than that atm), they either need a significant boost to LD or combat stats. Compare them to Eternal Guard with shields and the gap between the two units is depressing. Hell, empire halberds are in a much stronger position for their cost and they could still use a tweaking.
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  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,592Registered Users
    Flying units should not be to powerful. They need to pay for their flying ability. I think hippos are in an ok spot. Dragons could use a small tweak. In the tt the only had a single breath attack. This could be implemented with a small buff to that one attack.
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