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Problem with Araby

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  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Posts: 2,914Registered Users
    Kranox said:

    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    They have some of the besg Cavalry in the world, close to bretonnia, but not yet.

    They have extremely solid Infantry men, they are ferocious warrior.

    Basically they would be a human faction with Steong fast cav, Better infantry core than the Empire, good monsters, Elephant Infantry etc... but they would lack the technology of the Empire.



    Thats from what I understand they are

    I'm always confused when folks say they'd have really good infantry. What is that based on? Sure, they might have a couple elite units on the level of Greatswords, but there's nothing that indicates to me that their regular infantry would be any better than the Empire's. Infantry haven't really been a strong suit for past TW desert-dwelling factions either.
    Well mainly they have multiple mid to high tier Infantry, so better overall infantry core. It wont be even remotely close to Chaos or Dwarfs, but probably the best fkr a human faction yet
    So more variety in infantry in the mid-higher tiers, right? Ok, I can see that. But I don't see their spearmen being any better than Empire spearmen or even those higher tier units being of better quality than Greatswords. Cavalry is where they should shine.
    Peace out everyone, I'm done. TWW is now unrecognizable from the original IP and given the content offerings of the past year or so, I don't predict that CA's vision for the future will be all that appealing to me. Every wish or prediction I've made for the past year has been dashed and subverted so I'm pretty much abandoning any notion that the things that I'm hoping for will ever come. It also doesn't help that CA seems to only be granting the wishes of the most insufferably obnoxious players on this forum. So with that said...

  • HarkovastHarkovast Posts: 1,476Registered Users
    Araby should have elementals.
    They are a monster that gets mentioned in warhammer lore over the years but rearely appear in a substantial way.
    The Golden Magus uses them with his boat, so they are seemingly a thing Arabian sorcerers can call on.
    For The Lady, for Manann, for Bordeleaux!
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 2,878Registered Users
    Canuovea said:

    Empire should definitely have better disciplined infantry than Araby. They're pretty much supposed to be the top tier in human infantry in the setting.

    I see them as somewhere in between Empire and Bretonnian infantry, that said human chaff infantry doesn't vary overly much by faction.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • NeoYasNeoYas Posts: 603Registered Users
    edited January 20
    Araby best infantry are the Dervishers who I imagine them with no armour or light armour; "Considered to me the most notable units fielded in Araby, Dervishers are fanatic religious warriors all too willing to die for their god."
    I don't see them better than Greatswords either.

    Then comes Arabyan Guards, which would be close to them but with much better armour.


  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,472Registered Users
    edited January 20
    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    They have some of the besg Cavalry in the world, close to bretonnia, but not yet.

    They have extremely solid Infantry men, they are ferocious warrior.

    Basically they would be a human faction with Steong fast cav, Better infantry core than the Empire, good monsters, Elephant Infantry etc... but they would lack the technology of the Empire.



    Thats from what I understand they are

    I'm always confused when folks say they'd have really good infantry. What is that based on? Sure, they might have a couple elite units on the level of Greatswords, but there's nothing that indicates to me that their regular infantry would be any better than the Empire's. Infantry haven't really been a strong suit for past TW desert-dwelling factions either.
    Well mainly they have multiple mid to high tier Infantry, so better overall infantry core. It wont be even remotely close to Chaos or Dwarfs, but probably the best fkr a human faction yet
    So more variety in infantry in the mid-higher tiers, right? Ok, I can see that. But I don't see their spearmen being any better than Empire spearmen or even those higher tier units being of better quality than Greatswords. Cavalry is where they should shine.
    Greatswords wear dwarf-forged plate armour, and it's too hot to wear any kind of plate armour in Araby.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,645Registered Users
    Araby isn't an anti-Brettonia, although it is technologically similar (the Empire is ADVANCED, guys, thank the Dwarfs and High Elves).

    Araby doesn't have super powered knights, it's not even a pure cavalry force.

    It's a fair standard medieval formula based on, militarily, mostly the Mamluks. It's a combined arms approach that does happen to have some knights, sure, but it's pretty balanced.

    @Valkaar , mostly.

    If you want to see Hun/Mongol armies, you need to look East to the nomadic human tribes and the Hobgoblins. If you want VIABLE Hun/Mongol style, ignore the human nomadic tribes and just look at the Hobgoblins. Before anyone gets a hair up their ass, no, Kislev is not a horse faction too. It has some special cavalry, and employs more cavalry than The Empire, but they're not what you're looking for - they were - but that ended when they settled down and became Kislev instead of just one more nomadic human tribe out there serving as food for Hobgoblins, Ogres, and Chaos Marauders :-P

    Araby is just straight up standard mid-eastern middle ages stuff. It's actually rather broad and versatile, like High Elves or The Empire, just without dragons or steam-tanks. It's got jinn and elephants instead.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 2,878Registered Users
    Araby's list would look something like this, plus a few unknown additions
    • Spearmen
    • Swordsmen
    • Bowmen
    • Guardsmen Halberds
    • Guardsmen Great Weapons
    • Desert Riders
    • Desert Riders Bows
    • Arabian Knights
    • Camel Riders
    • Camel Riders (Ranged)
    • Elephants
    • Elephants (Ranged)
    • Flying Carpets
    • Tempest Djinn
    • Fire Efreets
    • Desert Spirits
    They'ed probably play like a hybrid of Bretonnia and Daemons of Chaos.

    Spearmen and Swordsmen would probably be better than men at arms but worse than Empire State Troops, Bowmen would be comparable to Empire X-Bow units.

    Desert Riders would be Comparable to Ellyrian Reavers both with and without bows.

    Arabian Knights would be middle tier shock cavalry, comparable to Reiksguard or KotBS but with a greater focus on movement speed.

    Camel Riders I would make sustained combat cavalry. Camels are as fast as horses, I'd give them perfect vigor and possibly make them anti large (not because horses are spooked by camels that's silly in a world with dragons)

    Camel Riders (Ranged) I'd make similar to Empire Outriders but equipped with Jezails, and again Perfect Vigor.

    Elephants would be smaller than Mammoths but come in units of 4 and they'd be used like chariots. The ranged version would have swivel cannons on its Howdah.

    Flying Carpets would have some ranged attacks but mostly just use as cheap bombing platforms.

    Fire Efreet would be an Incarnate Elemental of Fire from The Monsterous Arcanum, its essentially a greater daemon if daemons could represent a single wind of magic. It would be the size of a Treeman or Bloodthirster. It would handle moral like daemons and the undead, crumbling as opposed to retreating. It would be a melee monster with no armor, Physical resistance of 20-30%, Fire Resist of 80%, a Melee Attack Debuff Aura, Flaming Magical Attacks, Bonus V. Large, and the bound spells Cascading Fire Cloak and Piercing Bolts of Burning.


    Tempest Djinn would effectively be an Incarnate Elemental of Heavens, although GW never did create them themselves. I could see it in one of two ways. Either Way I'd give it Curse of the midnight wind and Urannon's Thunderbolt as bound spells. 1) The Tempest Djinn could be a living artillery piece like the Cygor -or- 2) (My preference) It could be a flying monster more like the Elemental of Fire.

    Desert Spirits would again be using the Incarnate Elemental template but instead of making a singular monster I see it as more of a Monsterous Infantry unit, think a collection of animate dust devils that collectively make a living sand storm. It's not clear exactly what spells they should have but obviously they should come from the Lore of Araby. I'd make these guys a fast moving blocker unit that's very resilient but not very offensive, possibly applying speed, Melee Attack, or Fatigue debuffs.

    Also I'd probably give Araby bombards for siege weapons, they'd fire with the slow projectile of a mortar but the accuracy of a cannon, so kindof in between terrible and good.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,645Registered Users
    Oh and speaking of High Elves and The Empire being so similar... that's one of the main reasons why I raise an eyebrow at the OP. There's a LOT of that standardization in the game... very very few races are unique, and those generally don't work so well... see Beastmen, Wood Elves, and Vampire Coast. Everything else is variation on a theme so far... they just include some new mechanics for each new race (which then get loaned out to the next race and cease being a new or unique mechanic really fast). So don't kid yourselves.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 2,975Registered Users
    @OdTengri

    That actually sells them short on the different kinds of cavalry they have.

    Since they have Desert Riders, which should be more like fast skirmishers. More or less filling the roll of cheap chaffe that just ties up people for the real cavalry to arrive.

    They have a light cavalry that can use swords and light bows, tt they had a 360 arc. The ranged being harrassment that can get in range and run away. The light just being tier 1 of the cavalry line.

    But they already had a regular horse medium cavalry, before knights. This shouldn't be left out for a variety of reasons, it's another tier on a building, and lets them have different choices on speed and armor choices.

    Then knights, yes they had them. They were a wealthy proud status symbol, full armored, with lances, yes in the desert.

    Then of course monstrous elephants and then the camel riders. I like some of your ideas for them.

    People keep worrying about Bretonnia and their 'best cavalry ever'. Except, nah, they had the best heavy cavalry... but because they barely use peasants as more than chaffe they do not have a versatile or flexible cavalry. Which is why you could do something like make Araby's heavy cavalry slower so you need to use their many types to pin their enemy then crunch them with the heavy knights or elephants. Harass them like the Bret's can't, and they are not concerned with chivalry or not using their lower classes this is why they get the disposable desert raiders to circle around or tie down with. This is why they have more tiers of cavalry. Where as there is a heavy focus on heavy full armored for brets, you get a better speed, maneuverability, and ranged options for Araby.

    This would of course all matter a lot more if unit caps were actually used properly in this title. Giving greater relevance to the many types.

    This is of course before we even talk air cavalry.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 3,011Registered Users
    Glass cannon Bretonia.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,645Registered Users
    Zergles said:

    Glass cannon Bretonia.

    How did you come to that conclusion?

    Like... what?
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 3,011Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Zergles said:

    Glass cannon Bretonia.

    How did you come to that conclusion?

    Like... what?
    Low armor elephants as shock cav.

    Low armor magic carpets as flying cav.

    Multiple light-medium cav options

    Lowish armor infantry with a couple heavy units.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,645Registered Users
    You're aware they have heavily armored knights and guards right?
  • tanspan88tanspan88 Posts: 201Registered Users
    Here’s a great long post on araby: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/216388/ultimate-araby-unit-list-the-canon-edition/p1

    I can see magic carpets as a mount at best.. like a disc of tzeench, but the idea of them forming groups and roaming round the battlefield, or worse still, engaging in glorius charges.. fills me with dread. Nope just too tacky.

    Araby could be a fantastic faction, and i agree with most of the above - mixed cavalry, mostly light/skirmisher, with elephants being used like chariots, and camels like a high endurance anti-cavalry fighter (gotta respect age of empires 2, of course camels do more damage to horses duh). Love the idea of the desert cav having something like smoke bomb..

    Infantry-wise, i’d say mostly fast lightly armed troops. Slightly higher attack and defence than empire troops, but less armour and leadership. Mix in some special troops (dancing girls, like witch elves) and a palace guard unit.

    Can’t see them having massed ranged firepower, either as archers or artillery.

    And of course various magical monsters with supporting and direct damage spells.

    Damn, really hope they’re added and done well.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 3,011Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    You're aware they have heavily armored knights and guards right?

    And?

    Like Beastmen have Bestigors?
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,645Registered Users
    Your ever play the Medieval games? If not, go grab 'em on the cheap and try out the mamlukes.
  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,527Registered Users
    Where exactly is the issue with their potential roster?

    - Great light cavalry including horse-archers.
    - Camels vs Horses.... could make camels heavier anti large grind-cav while horses are lighter
    - you Got Elephants...smaller mammoths, potential versions with cannons and armor.
    - they have a good diverse infantry-roster between spearmen, swordmen, dervishes, immortals, slaves....
    - skirmish lacks armor-piercing, but could have for example shielded javelins , medium archers or slingers.. but especially oil-throwers are of interest.
    - djinns as bestial infantry with magic attack ..bigger djinns with bound spells
    - onagers, ballista (scorpion)...
    - flying carpets using bombs

    They would focus on melee with their diverse infantry, unlike the empire, they have actual damage dealer infantry (dervishes), monsters (elephants and djinns) and good fast cavalry.

    They would be lacking in armorpiercing skirmishers and advance artillery

    The additional flavor should come through the characters, the unique lore of magic.
  • ThomassiniThomassini Posts: 171Registered Users

    So from what I understand is that your argument is that Araby shouldn't be in because you don't think they would fit a theme that YOU like?

    As several other people pointed out, they would have a highly mobile faction with a wide range of fast units. But you claim that nobody wants a skirmisher faction and so they shouldn't be in? I know a ton of people who don't want monster themed factions but they don't say "Wow Ogres should never be added!". People have different tastes than you and the game isn't catered to only what you want.

    The fact that you say the Hobgoblins fit a unique niche but dismiss Araby as not having anything... This seems more like an excuse to justify why you don't want Araby rather than whatever your actual reason for disliking them is.

    Hi!

    As a matter of fact, I want Araby more than any other faction left in TWWH2, AND I have always wanted them more than VPirates. Alas, we have to do with what we have. Please don’t reach false conclusions based on nothing I wrote.

    What I want to know is what kind of playstyle are they going to offer. So far, every faction is based on one or two features, overexaggerated to the point of “in your face!” like Bretonnia. That’s why I love Warhammer btw. And I think Araby does not have something that would drastically distinguish them from others and I am not talking about visuals and theme here (in these departments they are obviously unique enough).



    As for Mongols comparisons please leave them for Hobgoblins. I really don’t think it’s a good idea to shove “ultimate cavalry faction” tag onto Arabyans.
    Nyxilis said:

    They have the largest variety in cavalry from just the Warmaster Lists alone. Meaning they can pull out a wide variety of what they need form it, super swift skirmishers, light, medium, and heavy. Monstrous through elephants.

    But this thread seems primarily designed to do nothing more than try to derail and put a stopper to Araby. Something that hardly any others receive. Pointless nonsense.

    They're a different themed human option, it has ever ability to be made.

    I don't want Araby because it rhymes with Barnaby and that's a silly name.

    What a nonsensical thread. Do you know the manga Berserk? There's a faction called the Kushan who are a mix of Persian and Indian iconography and they work fine as a fantasy kingdom. Araby should be similar.

    The same as above. False conclusions. On the contrary, this thread is meant to enhance Araby chances and give us any idea what might be their niche. So far all the factions have a defining style in battles. Or would you like to read 1000000th thread saying “Araby would be cool” nonsense without enriching the discussion?
  • ThomassiniThomassini Posts: 171Registered Users

    I pitched something a bit like this a while back, here it is again:

    ARABY:

    Army Subgroups: Urban Soldiers, Nomads, Desert Spirits and Creatures

    Unique Battlefield Mechanic: Desert Warriors

    Explanation: Araby’s human population is split between nomadic horsemen and more traditional troops from the urban areas. Arabyan infantry should be decent, not great, and low armor. However, its elite infantry would be more respectable, with small numbers but access to firearms and djinn-bound weapons. Both would have faster move speed, due to lacking the encumbrance of heavy armor. Nomads would be almost exclusively tied to light skirmish cavalry, however. Desert Spirits and Creatures would consist of elephants, djinn, and any other monstrous units CA chooses to include. Araby has very good skirmish cavalry but its shock cavalry is lacking and these spirits/monsters would provide the real hammer to their anvil.

    Desert Warriors is a mechanic that would give certain units the bound ability to go into Stalk for a limited amount of time, with a cooldown. Arabyan troops are lightly armored and have learned through the years that the secret to winning a battle in the desert is to get as close to your enemy as possible while undetected. The Arabyans would have more high-end units with Stalk than almost any other faction as a result. Their nomadic skirmish cavalry would have it, any nomadic infantry (like Dervishes) would have it, and maybe even one or two of their Djinn would have it. The significant difference is that it wouldn’t be passive. The player would have to choose when would be the most advantageous time to activate the ability and get his units were they need to be to surprise the enemy. Despite having low armor this would allow Araby to stand up to archer and artillery heavy factions like Elves or Dwarfs by sending out skirmishers and flankers (including cavalry) in Stalk, harassing and surrounding the enemy and buying time for their (relatively fast) main force to draw closer.

    Fighting them would be like fighting a sandstorm, with Stalking units reducing your choice of targets for ranged attacks. their flankers would get close, attack at point-blank, and then melt away and repeat from another angle. Their main weakness would be armies with good scouting options that could keep tabs on where all their units are. Think of it a bit like a flipped Beastmen approach. The Beastmen have Stalk on a lot of their weaker (but speedier) infantry, and not on their cavalry or monsters. With Araby it would be the other way around, where their light cav and some of their monsters have Stalk, balanced by being an activated ability with a cooldown, and they use this to prevent you from focusing on their lightly armored units.

    Amazing post! THAT is what I was looking for creating this thread. A lot of ideas actually contributing to more cohesive Araby!
    Itharus said:


    I disagree with your whole post.

    Care to elaborate? Just as a disclaimer: I fervently want Araby to get in the game.

    Araby is unique.

    I agree, with regard to campaign and theme it is. But battles? Care to elaborate?
    Crossil said:

    I would expect highly mobile army with ethereal monsters in Djinns to offer some staying power. With some heavier options in infantry and cav with elephants but mostly for magic wielding races that would counter the Djinns. I would also prefer that they have some other options that offer magic resistance as in my mind since Araby has low amount of magic winds they'd sooner focus on anti-magic options when fighting magic heavy races, with only Djinns and few mages offering magic options.

    Another good post. Like.
    OdTengri said:

    Araby's list would look something like this, plus a few unknown additions

    • Spearmen
    • Swordsmen
    • Bowmen
    • Guardsmen Halberds
    • Guardsmen Great Weapons
    • Desert Riders
    • Desert Riders Bows
    • Arabian Knights
    • Camel Riders
    • Camel Riders (Ranged)
    • Elephants
    • Elephants (Ranged)
    • Flying Carpets
    • Tempest Djinn
    • Fire Efreets
    • Desert Spirits
    They'ed probably play like a hybrid of Bretonnia and Daemons of Chaos.

    Spearmen and Swordsmen would probably be better than men at arms but worse than Empire State Troops, Bowmen would be comparable to Empire X-Bow units.

    Desert Riders would be Comparable to Ellyrian Reavers both with and without bows.

    Arabian Knights would be middle tier shock cavalry, comparable to Reiksguard or KotBS but with a greater focus on movement speed.

    Camel Riders I would make sustained combat cavalry. Camels are as fast as horses, I'd give them perfect vigor and possibly make them anti large (not because horses are spooked by camels that's silly in a world with dragons)

    Camel Riders (Ranged) I'd make similar to Empire Outriders but equipped with Jezails, and again Perfect Vigor.

    Elephants would be smaller than Mammoths but come in units of 4 and they'd be used like chariots. The ranged version would have swivel cannons on its Howdah.

    Flying Carpets would have some ranged attacks but mostly just use as cheap bombing platforms.

    Fire Efreet would be an Incarnate Elemental of Fire from The Monsterous Arcanum, its essentially a greater daemon if daemons could represent a single wind of magic. It would be the size of a Treeman or Bloodthirster. It would handle moral like daemons and the undead, crumbling as opposed to retreating. It would be a melee monster with no armor, Physical resistance of 20-30%, Fire Resist of 80%, a Melee Attack Debuff Aura, Flaming Magical Attacks, Bonus V. Large, and the bound spells Cascading Fire Cloak and Piercing Bolts of Burning.


    Tempest Djinn would effectively be an Incarnate Elemental of Heavens, although GW never did create them themselves. I could see it in one of two ways. Either Way I'd give it Curse of the midnight wind and Urannon's Thunderbolt as bound spells. 1) The Tempest Djinn could be a living artillery piece like the Cygor -or- 2) (My preference) It could be a flying monster more like the Elemental of Fire.

    Desert Spirits would again be using the Incarnate Elemental template but instead of making a singular monster I see it as more of a Monsterous Infantry unit, think a collection of animate dust devils that collectively make a living sand storm. It's not clear exactly what spells they should have but obviously they should come from the Lore of Araby. I'd make these guys a fast moving blocker unit that's very resilient but not very offensive, possibly applying speed, Melee Attack, or Fatigue debuffs.

    Also I'd probably give Araby bombards for siege weapons, they'd fire with the slow projectile of a mortar but the accuracy of a cannon, so kindof in between terrible and good.
    And another good post full of IDEAS and how to implement them. Good job!


    So, to summarize:

    1. Most folks agree that Araby will be highly mobile faction. Going even so far as to say ultimate mobility faction (I think this one should be reserved for Hobgoblins tho);

    2. It has two themes, urban and desert, somehow making them close to WE: two thematically opposed but synergetic playstyles;

    3. It has a lot of ranged, highly mobile units, therefore making it close to WE but not exactly the same, due to cavalry and monsters.

    Other ideas have been mentioned such as anti-magic and teleportation; how can this be viably implemented in game without being OP?

    Some posts I wholeheartedly don’t agree with. Another jack-of-all-trades race with different looks is not a good idea. Mongol style is ridiculous as this should be Hobgoblins’ niche.

    I am starting to get an overall picture: Ranged mobility with many mobile monsters; elephants with cannons being the epitome of this.

  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 4,855Registered Users
    The only problem with Araby that I see is that it won't come out this month.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,199Registered Users
    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    They have some of the besg Cavalry in the world, close to bretonnia, but not yet.

    They have extremely solid Infantry men, they are ferocious warrior.

    Basically they would be a human faction with Steong fast cav, Better infantry core than the Empire, good monsters, Elephant Infantry etc... but they would lack the technology of the Empire.



    Thats from what I understand they are

    I'm always confused when folks say they'd have really good infantry. What is that based on? Sure, they might have a couple elite units on the level of Greatswords, but there's nothing that indicates to me that their regular infantry would be any better than the Empire's. Infantry haven't really been a strong suit for past TW desert-dwelling factions either.
    Well mainly they have multiple mid to high tier Infantry, so better overall infantry core. It wont be even remotely close to Chaos or Dwarfs, but probably the best fkr a human faction yet
    So more variety in infantry in the mid-higher tiers, right? Ok, I can see that. But I don't see their spearmen being any better than Empire spearmen or even those higher tier units being of better quality than Greatswords. Cavalry is where they should shine.
    Ok ok, let's stop there. I actually played Warmaster with local historical and fantasy mini conversion.
    You get it wrong.
    Araby spearmen are the best spearmen of Warmaster. They have the same armour of the Empire troops stats wise.
    The meme around them in Warmaster was that their armour is probably dip in gold, giving how rich a Sultan is. Jokes apart, what made them different from the Empire is that their infantry sucks in Attack. The best use of Arabyan infantry is with Mirages to isolate enemy units or baiting them into oblivion.


    The themes of Araby are: Defense, Heavy hitters, Speed, Discipline.
    There's a lot of confusion regarding them because they feel strange on many themes, but their own inner weakness is their lack of aggressiveness in their infantry, lack of AP, contorted way to use their magic and flying skirmishers made of paper
  • MarkerMarker Posts: 759Registered Users
    I also saw a comment about Pirates being in Araby, perhaps this is an idea for one of the Legendary Lords of Araby to have them as unique units like Sartosa with the VC.
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    Araby should not be the "ultimate mobility faction". Yeah, Saladino and the like did use mobility tactics and skirmish tactics, but as any empire that wants to hold land knows, for that you need actual infantry. Plus a mobility faction would have little to no use for elephants.

    Plus WEs are already the ultimate mobility faction.




    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    They have some of the besg Cavalry in the world, close to bretonnia, but not yet.

    They have extremely solid Infantry men, they are ferocious warrior.

    Basically they would be a human faction with Steong fast cav, Better infantry core than the Empire, good monsters, Elephant Infantry etc... but they would lack the technology of the Empire.



    Thats from what I understand they are

    I'm always confused when folks say they'd have really good infantry. What is that based on? Sure, they might have a couple elite units on the level of Greatswords, but there's nothing that indicates to me that their regular infantry would be any better than the Empire's. Infantry haven't really been a strong suit for past TW desert-dwelling factions either.
    Well mainly they have multiple mid to high tier Infantry, so better overall infantry core. It wont be even remotely close to Chaos or Dwarfs, but probably the best fkr a human faction yet
    So more variety in infantry in the mid-higher tiers, right? Ok, I can see that. But I don't see their spearmen being any better than Empire spearmen or even those higher tier units being of better quality than Greatswords. Cavalry is where they should shine.
    Ok ok, let's stop there. I actually played Warmaster with local historical and fantasy mini conversion.
    You get it wrong.
    Araby spearmen are the best spearmen of Warmaster. They have the same armour of the Empire troops stats wise.
    The meme around them in Warmaster was that their armour is probably dip in gold, giving how rich a Sultan is. Jokes apart, what made them different from the Empire is that their infantry sucks in Attack. The best use of Arabyan infantry is with Mirages to isolate enemy units or baiting them into oblivion.


    The themes of Araby are: Defense, Heavy hitters, Speed, Discipline.
    There's a lot of confusion regarding them because they feel strange on many themes, but their own inner weakness is their lack of aggressiveness in their infantry, lack of AP, contorted way to use their magic and flying skirmishers made of paper
    Basic infantry should be worse than the Empire. But, as opposed to the Empire, which has mid tier AP greatswords, Araby should have mid tier halberds and sword and shield units. And maybe a special "elite slave soldiers GW unit", probably unarmored, to counter mass GW formations.

  • NeoYasNeoYas Posts: 603Registered Users

    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    They have some of the besg Cavalry in the world, close to bretonnia, but not yet.

    They have extremely solid Infantry men, they are ferocious warrior.

    Basically they would be a human faction with Steong fast cav, Better infantry core than the Empire, good monsters, Elephant Infantry etc... but they would lack the technology of the Empire.



    Thats from what I understand they are

    I'm always confused when folks say they'd have really good infantry. What is that based on? Sure, they might have a couple elite units on the level of Greatswords, but there's nothing that indicates to me that their regular infantry would be any better than the Empire's. Infantry haven't really been a strong suit for past TW desert-dwelling factions either.
    Well mainly they have multiple mid to high tier Infantry, so better overall infantry core. It wont be even remotely close to Chaos or Dwarfs, but probably the best fkr a human faction yet
    So more variety in infantry in the mid-higher tiers, right? Ok, I can see that. But I don't see their spearmen being any better than Empire spearmen or even those higher tier units being of better quality than Greatswords. Cavalry is where they should shine.
    Ok ok, let's stop there. I actually played Warmaster with local historical and fantasy mini conversion.
    You get it wrong.
    Araby spearmen are the best spearmen of Warmaster. They have the same armour of the Empire troops stats wise.
    The meme around them in Warmaster was that their armour is probably dip in gold, giving how rich a Sultan is. Jokes apart, what made them different from the Empire is that their infantry sucks in Attack. The best use of Arabyan infantry is with Mirages to isolate enemy units or baiting them into oblivion.


    The themes of Araby are: Defense, Heavy hitters, Speed, Discipline.
    There's a lot of confusion regarding them because they feel strange on many themes, but their own inner weakness is their lack of aggressiveness in their infantry, lack of AP, contorted way to use their magic and flying skirmishers made of paper
    So who would be the heavy hitters? Djinns?

    To whom would be comparable Arabyan Guards?


  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    Arabyan Guards should be comparable in performance to Grave Guards. Less HP but more MA and MD. And a halberd unit instead of a GW one.


    Their weakness should definitely be lack of GW infantry and ap missiles.
  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,199Registered Users
    NeoYas said:

    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    ben8vtedu said:

    Kranox said:

    They have some of the besg Cavalry in the world, close to bretonnia, but not yet.

    They have extremely solid Infantry men, they are ferocious warrior.

    Basically they would be a human faction with Steong fast cav, Better infantry core than the Empire, good monsters, Elephant Infantry etc... but they would lack the technology of the Empire.



    Thats from what I understand they are

    I'm always confused when folks say they'd have really good infantry. What is that based on? Sure, they might have a couple elite units on the level of Greatswords, but there's nothing that indicates to me that their regular infantry would be any better than the Empire's. Infantry haven't really been a strong suit for past TW desert-dwelling factions either.
    Well mainly they have multiple mid to high tier Infantry, so better overall infantry core. It wont be even remotely close to Chaos or Dwarfs, but probably the best fkr a human faction yet
    So more variety in infantry in the mid-higher tiers, right? Ok, I can see that. But I don't see their spearmen being any better than Empire spearmen or even those higher tier units being of better quality than Greatswords. Cavalry is where they should shine.
    Ok ok, let's stop there. I actually played Warmaster with local historical and fantasy mini conversion.
    You get it wrong.
    Araby spearmen are the best spearmen of Warmaster. They have the same armour of the Empire troops stats wise.
    The meme around them in Warmaster was that their armour is probably dip in gold, giving how rich a Sultan is. Jokes apart, what made them different from the Empire is that their infantry sucks in Attack. The best use of Arabyan infantry is with Mirages to isolate enemy units or baiting them into oblivion.


    The themes of Araby are: Defense, Heavy hitters, Speed, Discipline.
    There's a lot of confusion regarding them because they feel strange on many themes, but their own inner weakness is their lack of aggressiveness in their infantry, lack of AP, contorted way to use their magic and flying skirmishers made of paper
    So who would be the heavy hitters? Djinns?

    To whom would be comparable Arabyan Guards?
    The heavy hitters are their cavalry, both ranged and melee. Guardsmen could be equipped with both Swords and Shields and Halberds in Warmaster (which system of Weapon Variants is used currently for some units, like Stormvermin, in Total War).

    Guardsmen are actually their only offensive choice for infantry. Arabyan spearmen, swordsmen,archers have all a difensive role.
    Guards had a special rule where they, thanks to the fanatical loyalty to their commander/Sultan, could perma charge if you start the charge inside the Commander aura (which boost discipline to some degree). I don't know how CA would handle this skill in Total War terms, but it was unique to them.
    They can be considered, on Total War terms, to squires, but are surely better armoured and their halberd variant surely has not the same offensive role than swords and shields Guards, which lack AP.

    Djinns in Warmaster are bad implemented, and its better for CA to draw from the lore to keep them more useful (in Warmaster they are just sorcerer mounts that help in boosting magic)

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 5,356Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Oh and speaking of High Elves and The Empire being so similar... that's one of the main reasons why I raise an eyebrow at the OP. There's a LOT of that standardization in the game... very very few races are unique, and those generally don't work so well... see Beastmen, Wood Elves, and Vampire Coast. Everything else is variation on a theme so far... they just include some new mechanics for each new race (which then get loaned out to the next race and cease being a new or unique mechanic really fast). So don't kid yourselves.

    Pretty much this. HE and Empire are regarded as jacks of all trades, but each has gaps in their rosters: Empire lacks non-character flyers, HE have relatively poor artillery, and both lack land monsters. Greenskins are similar to Empire but trade some artillery for land monsters. Dark Elves are, unsurprisingly, similar to High Elves and arguably more versatile overall - they have less flyers but a more varied infantry selection as well as having land monsters. I could keep going, but I think I've illustrated the point.

    Araby is...probably closest to Bretonnia. Their baseline infantry would probably have less MA than their Empire counterparts, but be reasonably durable - their job would probably be to pin the enemy so more mobile units could do their job, but be unlikely to win a battle on their own. Conventional heavy cavalry is weaker than Bretonnia's, but they compensate with better ranged cavalry and the presence of monsters such as Tuskers and djinn.
  • ErathilErathil Posts: 469Registered Users
    I always imagine Araby as a sort of Warhammer version of the Muslim factions of Medieval II.

    You'd have an emphasis on light infantry and cavalry, with fast missile and skirmish options for both, and heavier shock cavalry. The Warhammer aspect would include things like djinn and elementals, giving them fast magical monsters to help augment their cavalry. They historically have flying-carpet units, which could make interesting fast missile or magical support.

    So... a fast and hard hitting faction with tons of magical and mundane cavalry options, but without the conventional defense and staying power of knights. In exchange, they have more unique and subversive traits and abilities, and a larger availability of unique monsters and magic.
  • Bonutz619Bonutz619 Posts: 735Registered Users
    Erathil said:

    I always imagine Araby as a sort of Warhammer version of the Muslim factions of Medieval II.

    You'd have an emphasis on light infantry and cavalry, with fast missile and skirmish options for both, and heavier shock cavalry. The Warhammer aspect would include things like djinn and elementals, giving them fast magical monsters to help augment their cavalry. They historically have flying-carpet units, which could make interesting fast missile or magical support.

    So... a fast and hard hitting faction with tons of magical and mundane cavalry options, but without the conventional defense and staying power of knights. In exchange, they have more unique and subversive traits and abilities, and a larger availability of unique monsters and magic.

    This ^^^
  • animikhanimikh Posts: 6Registered Users
    tanspan88 said:

    Here’s a great long post on araby: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/216388/ultimate-araby-unit-list-the-canon-edition/p1

    I can see magic carpets as a mount at best.. like a disc of tzeench, but the idea of them forming groups and roaming round the battlefield, or worse still, engaging in glorius charges.. fills me with dread. Nope just too tacky.

    Araby could be a fantastic faction, and i agree with most of the above - mixed cavalry, mostly light/skirmisher, with elephants being used like chariots, and camels like a high endurance anti-cavalry fighter (gotta respect age of empires 2, of course camels do more damage to horses duh). Love the idea of the desert cav having something like smoke bomb..

    Infantry-wise, i’d say mostly fast lightly armed troops. Slightly higher attack and defence than empire troops, but less armour and leadership. Mix in some special troops (dancing girls, like witch elves) and a palace guard unit.

    Can’t see them having massed ranged firepower, either as archers or artillery.

    And of course various magical monsters with supporting and direct damage spells.

    Damn, really hope they’re added and done well.

    I agree with almost everything here. Though I personally feel they should change "flying carpets" altogether, and give them like giant falcons or something more appropriate.
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