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Problem with Araby

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  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 7,651
    animikh said:

    tanspan88 said:

    Here’s a great long post on araby: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/216388/ultimate-araby-unit-list-the-canon-edition/p1

    I can see magic carpets as a mount at best.. like a disc of tzeench, but the idea of them forming groups and roaming round the battlefield, or worse still, engaging in glorius charges.. fills me with dread. Nope just too tacky.

    Araby could be a fantastic faction, and i agree with most of the above - mixed cavalry, mostly light/skirmisher, with elephants being used like chariots, and camels like a high endurance anti-cavalry fighter (gotta respect age of empires 2, of course camels do more damage to horses duh). Love the idea of the desert cav having something like smoke bomb..

    Infantry-wise, i’d say mostly fast lightly armed troops. Slightly higher attack and defence than empire troops, but less armour and leadership. Mix in some special troops (dancing girls, like witch elves) and a palace guard unit.

    Can’t see them having massed ranged firepower, either as archers or artillery.

    And of course various magical monsters with supporting and direct damage spells.

    Damn, really hope they’re added and done well.

    I agree with almost everything here. Though I personally feel they should change "flying carpets" altogether, and give them like giant falcons or something more appropriate.
    Flying carpets not appropriate? Neigh! We already have a faction with giant birds, lets stick with the carpets. The one area we actually get something unique and can potentially have a faction that uses 'bombs'.
  • gholingholin Member Registered Users Posts: 1,389
    I expect Araby being pretty balanced. A focus on skirmishing camelry and carpetry (see what I did there), followed by a wall of scimitar heavy infantry, with whirling dervish girls on the flanks (similar role to Wardancers and Witch Elves), monsters like Elephants, Djinn, Rocs, and Manticores to smash things, shock heavy arabyan knights, and magic from Djinn and Wizards to help turn the tides. All in all, pretty diverse with a lot of tactics and harrying units to whittle them down before they reach your lines.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    gholin said:

    I expect Araby being pretty balanced. A focus on skirmishing camelry and carpetry (see what I did there), followed by a wall of scimitar heavy infantry, with whirling dervish girls on the flanks (similar role to Wardancers and Witch Elves), monsters like Elephants, Djinn, Rocs, and Manticores to smash things, shock heavy arabyan knights, and magic from Djinn and Wizards to help turn the tides. All in all, pretty diverse with a lot of tactics and harrying units to whittle them down before they reach your lines.

    While manticores would be appropriate in terms of being from actual Middle Eastern legends the WH manticores are pretty nasty customers associated with Chaos who are usually only ridden by evil factions. It's one of the unfortunate downsides for Araby that many of the classic Middle Eastern legendary creatures (including rocs, griffons, manticores, and ghouls) have all been farmed out to other factions.

    Not that there isn't other stuff to work with but you'd have to dig a little deeper.
  • animikhanimikh Registered Users Posts: 9
    Nyxilis said:

    animikh said:

    tanspan88 said:

    Here’s a great long post on araby: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/216388/ultimate-araby-unit-list-the-canon-edition/p1

    I can see magic carpets as a mount at best.. like a disc of tzeench, but the idea of them forming groups and roaming round the battlefield, or worse still, engaging in glorius charges.. fills me with dread. Nope just too tacky.

    Araby could be a fantastic faction, and i agree with most of the above - mixed cavalry, mostly light/skirmisher, with elephants being used like chariots, and camels like a high endurance anti-cavalry fighter (gotta respect age of empires 2, of course camels do more damage to horses duh). Love the idea of the desert cav having something like smoke bomb..

    Infantry-wise, i’d say mostly fast lightly armed troops. Slightly higher attack and defence than empire troops, but less armour and leadership. Mix in some special troops (dancing girls, like witch elves) and a palace guard unit.

    Can’t see them having massed ranged firepower, either as archers or artillery.

    And of course various magical monsters with supporting and direct damage spells.

    Damn, really hope they’re added and done well.

    I agree with almost everything here. Though I personally feel they should change "flying carpets" altogether, and give them like giant falcons or something more appropriate.
    Flying carpets not appropriate? Neigh! We already have a faction with giant birds, lets stick with the carpets. The one area we actually get something unique and can potentially have a faction that uses 'bombs'.
    Flying carpets that can drop bombs for a middle eastern-ish faction is NOT creative/unique (or appropriate imo...but that's a diff topic). Besides, multiple factions have lord/army similar flying units and it's not a problem. Falcons have cultural significance in Arabia and they could just operate as fast hit n' run flying chariots.
  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310
    Tayvar said:

    Greatswords wear dwarf-forged plate armour, and it's too hot to wear any kind of plate armour in Araby.

    Ok ok, let's stop there. I actually played Warmaster with local historical and fantasy mini conversion.
    You get it wrong.
    Araby spearmen are the best spearmen of Warmaster. They have the same armour of the Empire troops stats wise.
    The meme around them in Warmaster was that their armour is probably dip in gold, giving how rich a Sultan is. Jokes apart, what made them different from the Empire is that their infantry sucks in Attack. The best use of Arabyan infantry is with Mirages to isolate enemy units or baiting them into oblivion.


    The themes of Araby are: Defense, Heavy hitters, Speed, Discipline.
    There's a lot of confusion regarding them because they feel strange on many themes, but their own inner weakness is their lack of aggressiveness in their infantry, lack of AP, contorted way to use their magic and flying skirmishers made of paper

    Ok, so perhaps there'd be less of a gap between Araby's basic infantry and their elite infantry. So instead of the analogy being Empire Spearmen and Greatswords, it's more like HE Spearmen and Foot Squires or something like that. Am I in the ballpark?
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,217
    I like this idea of Araby having cheap defensive Spearmen equal to the empire but with even lower MA and Higher MD the the Empires.

    I don't think they should even get chaff Swordsmen, just Spearmen and Spearmen with Shields.

    Guards should be Araby's equivalent to Empire Greatswords but inverted. While Empire Greatswords are aggressive in nature I think they Guard should be defensive and equipped with Halberds or Scimitars and Silver Shields. Again I think the theme of high MD should be kept up.

    So Araby...

    Highly Defensive Infantry

    Probably Archers only for Ranged.

    Great Light Cavalry/Skirmish Cavalry

    Heavy Cavalry medium tier, no Monster Cav or Blessed by Gods/Ladies unless invented, emphasis on speed.

    Elephants for wrecking infantry.

    Flying Carpets, Fast Flying Skirmish Cavalry, Bombs.

    Djinn Monsters Based on Incarnate Elementals, No Armor, Decent Phys Resist, Bound Spells.

    .... Maybe Araby....

    Dervishes similar to Wardancers

    Some amount of Gunpowder

    Bombards for Siege

    Assassins
  • Canuovea#6291Canuovea#6291 Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,959
    Hmm. OdTengri has a good outline for them there.

    Some similarities with a potential Southern Realms/Dogs of War faction, but they'd have fewer monsters and more arty specialty with a focus on ranged firepower. Interesting either way.
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  • DerpyRoxasDerpyRoxas Registered Users Posts: 3,348
    ben8vtedu said:

    Tayvar said:

    Greatswords wear dwarf-forged plate armour, and it's too hot to wear any kind of plate armour in Araby.

    Ok ok, let's stop there. I actually played Warmaster with local historical and fantasy mini conversion.
    You get it wrong.
    Araby spearmen are the best spearmen of Warmaster. They have the same armour of the Empire troops stats wise.
    The meme around them in Warmaster was that their armour is probably dip in gold, giving how rich a Sultan is. Jokes apart, what made them different from the Empire is that their infantry sucks in Attack. The best use of Arabyan infantry is with Mirages to isolate enemy units or baiting them into oblivion.


    The themes of Araby are: Defense, Heavy hitters, Speed, Discipline.
    There's a lot of confusion regarding them because they feel strange on many themes, but their own inner weakness is their lack of aggressiveness in their infantry, lack of AP, contorted way to use their magic and flying skirmishers made of paper

    Ok, so perhaps there'd be less of a gap between Araby's basic infantry and their elite infantry. So instead of the analogy being Empire Spearmen and Greatswords, it's more like HE Spearmen and Foot Squires or something like that. Am I in the ballpark?
    You are correct.
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,217
    I think the real questions regarding Araby are.

    1) How much Gunpowder should they have, we know its more than 0 but less than The Empire.

    2) Their Heavy Cavalry is the best that mundane humans and mounts can be, in the last iteration of Warhammer that they where "current" they where described as the equals of Empire or Bretonnian Knights. Since then the Empire has received Demi-Gryph Knights and Bretonnia has Grail Knights. Araby has nothing to suggest they having anything that can compete on that level, whether or not something should be invented to do so is a major decision. If Araby does get something to rival Grail Knights, Dragon Princes, or Demi-Gryph Knights then they will be a powerful Cavalry faction, they'll be grade A. If they don't however, they'll be B or C Cavalry faction, and their Cav game will get shut down by superior factions.

    3) How many and what lores of magic should they have. If I had to list most to least appropriate based on my own subjective opinion it would look like this.
    • Lore of Araby
    • Lore of Heavens
    • Lore of Metal
    • Lore of Fire
    • Lore of Shadow
    • Lore of Death
    • Lore of Light
    • Lore of Life
    • Lore of Beasts
    The lore of Araby has to be included, IRL the Arab world where the first great Astrologers (Lore of Heavens) and Alchemy (Lore of Metal) also has its start in the Muslim Golden age. Fire just feels like a must if Efreet (Incarnate Elemental of Fire) is going to make it into the game. Shadow, Light and Death all feel like they would fit Araby but it also feels like the cultural reflections of those lores have already been given to Nehekara. Life and Especially Beasts feels out of place to me.

    4) How many Djinn do we want to see, theoretically we could have one for each lore of magic that Araby has.
  • NeoYasNeoYas Registered Users Posts: 969
    edited January 2019
    Araby already have It own lore of magic, these are the spells:
    • Sand Storm - The sorcerer commands the desert spirits to engulf his foes in a swirling cloud of choking sand and dust.

    • Mirage - The sorcerer creates the illusion of a huge host of fearsome warriors, bearing down inexorably upon his startled foes.

    • Sunstrike - Bright beams of burning energy leap from the sorcerer's eyes and scythe through all before him.

    • Curse of the Djinn - The sorcerer channels the immense power of the Djinn through his own body and lays a terrible curse upon his foes.
    CA would have to add a fifth one.

  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,217
    And a 6th one too.

    Also they'd have to come up with their own lore attribute.
  • NeoYasNeoYas Registered Users Posts: 969
    edited January 2019
    Araby’s lore offers a wide variety of opcion from where to pick up units.

    Some units in this list don’t have a specified rol, ranged, melee or hybrid, so they can be put on any category or have multiple varieties, like nomads and Touaregs for example.

    Infantry:

    Touareg bandits
    Desert raiders
    Nomad infantry
    Arabyan spearmen
    Arabyan swordsmen
    Arabyan Corsairs
    Eunochs
    Dread Daughters of Tarik
    Arabyan assassins
    Arabyan Guards
    Dervishes

    Hybrid units :
    Arabyan corsairs (with pistols)
    Desert raiders

    Missile infantry :
    Arabyan bowmen
    Nomad archers

    Cavalry :
    Arabyan knights (shock cavalry)

    Missile cavalry :
    Arabyan Desert riders
    Camel riders
    Camel riders with jezails (A Warmaster hero mounted on a camel carries a jezail)

    Flying units:
    Flying carpets (can have multiple varieties)
    Vultures
    Radiant pegasus

    Monsters :
    Panthers (feral)
    Elephants
    Armoured elephants (Arabyan commanders mount armoured elephants)
    Sea Nymphs
    Desert jinns (ordinary jinns/genies)
    Tempest jinns
    Ifrit
    Royal djinn

    As Araby have gunpowder technology It can also have several gunpower units.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,396
    I'd probably put the Lore of Light up a few notches. It's been noted that the Light College in the Empire has been influenced by "southern traditions" rather than purely using the teachings of the High Elves, and it's probably more likely that they'd have got their material from Araby than from Nehekhara. I could also definitely see the Arabyans having put a priority on magic that's good against undead after the Wars of Death.
    animikh said:

    Nyxilis said:

    animikh said:

    tanspan88 said:

    Here’s a great long post on araby: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/216388/ultimate-araby-unit-list-the-canon-edition/p1

    I can see magic carpets as a mount at best.. like a disc of tzeench, but the idea of them forming groups and roaming round the battlefield, or worse still, engaging in glorius charges.. fills me with dread. Nope just too tacky.

    Araby could be a fantastic faction, and i agree with most of the above - mixed cavalry, mostly light/skirmisher, with elephants being used like chariots, and camels like a high endurance anti-cavalry fighter (gotta respect age of empires 2, of course camels do more damage to horses duh). Love the idea of the desert cav having something like smoke bomb..

    Infantry-wise, i’d say mostly fast lightly armed troops. Slightly higher attack and defence than empire troops, but less armour and leadership. Mix in some special troops (dancing girls, like witch elves) and a palace guard unit.

    Can’t see them having massed ranged firepower, either as archers or artillery.

    And of course various magical monsters with supporting and direct damage spells.

    Damn, really hope they’re added and done well.

    I agree with almost everything here. Though I personally feel they should change "flying carpets" altogether, and give them like giant falcons or something more appropriate.
    Flying carpets not appropriate? Neigh! We already have a faction with giant birds, lets stick with the carpets. The one area we actually get something unique and can potentially have a faction that uses 'bombs'.
    Flying carpets that can drop bombs for a middle eastern-ish faction is NOT creative/unique (or appropriate imo...but that's a diff topic). Besides, multiple factions have lord/army similar flying units and it's not a problem. Falcons have cultural significance in Arabia and they could just operate as fast hit n' run flying chariots.
    I'd call flying carpets more unique than another unit of birds or bird-hybrids. We already have Warhawks, Hippogryphs, and so on, and the High Elves have dibs on a flying chariot pulled by a giant bird. More generally, birds and bird-hybrids are among the most common sources of flight in fantasy settings, with the only real competition being dragons. Carpets are less common.

    I also don't know where the idea that carpets would be somehow inappropriate is coming from. Yes, they're in 1001 Nights. Saying that it's inappropriate to draw from a compilation of Middle Eastern faerie tales for a Middle Eastern-themed fantasy would be like saying it's inappropriate to draw from Grimm for a European-themed fantasy.
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,217
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure if they do Araby the Carpets are going to be in, they're going to have to expand the Arabyan roster to make an army from it as is and it will probably be the first time we see them come up with a few things completely unsourced. I highly doubt that if they are inventing 2-6 units from scratch that they'll not use every unit already available.
  • animikhanimikh Registered Users Posts: 9
    Draxynnic said:

    I'd probably put the Lore of Light up a few notches. It's been noted that the Light College in the Empire has been influenced by "southern traditions" rather than purely using the teachings of the High Elves, and it's probably more likely that they'd have got their material from Araby than from Nehekhara. I could also definitely see the Arabyans having put a priority on magic that's good against undead after the Wars of Death.

    animikh said:

    Nyxilis said:

    animikh said:

    tanspan88 said:

    Here’s a great long post on araby: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/216388/ultimate-araby-unit-list-the-canon-edition/p1

    I can see magic carpets as a mount at best.. like a disc of tzeench, but the idea of them forming groups and roaming round the battlefield, or worse still, engaging in glorius charges.. fills me with dread. Nope just too tacky.

    Araby could be a fantastic faction, and i agree with most of the above - mixed cavalry, mostly light/skirmisher, with elephants being used like chariots, and camels like a high endurance anti-cavalry fighter (gotta respect age of empires 2, of course camels do more damage to horses duh). Love the idea of the desert cav having something like smoke bomb..

    Infantry-wise, i’d say mostly fast lightly armed troops. Slightly higher attack and defence than empire troops, but less armour and leadership. Mix in some special troops (dancing girls, like witch elves) and a palace guard unit.

    Can’t see them having massed ranged firepower, either as archers or artillery.

    And of course various magical monsters with supporting and direct damage spells.

    Damn, really hope they’re added and done well.

    I agree with almost everything here. Though I personally feel they should change "flying carpets" altogether, and give them like giant falcons or something more appropriate.
    Flying carpets not appropriate? Neigh! We already have a faction with giant birds, lets stick with the carpets. The one area we actually get something unique and can potentially have a faction that uses 'bombs'.
    Flying carpets that can drop bombs for a middle eastern-ish faction is NOT creative/unique (or appropriate imo...but that's a diff topic). Besides, multiple factions have lord/army similar flying units and it's not a problem. Falcons have cultural significance in Arabia and they could just operate as fast hit n' run flying chariots.
    I'd call flying carpets more unique than another unit of birds or bird-hybrids. We already have Warhawks, Hippogryphs, and so on, and the High Elves have dibs on a flying chariot pulled by a giant bird. More generally, birds and bird-hybrids are among the most common sources of flight in fantasy settings, with the only real competition being dragons. Carpets are less common.

    I also don't know where the idea that carpets would be somehow inappropriate is coming from. Yes, they're in 1001 Nights. Saying that it's inappropriate to draw from a compilation of Middle Eastern faerie tales for a Middle Eastern-themed fantasy would be like saying it's inappropriate to draw from Grimm for a European-themed fantasy.
    The "dropping bombs" part IS inappropriate. Let me clarify, a literal 'flying carpet' is not unique or creative (it's literally a floating fabric). for me personally, idc how cannon this unit/mount is-it's hella dumb. A Phoenix mount, eagle mount or a flying Luminark, they are all better than a flying carpet
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,217
    edited January 2019
    Why, is dropping bombs out of a Gyrocopter inappropriate, how about from the talons of a Terradon. You know if flying carpets where real their first military application would be as a bombing platform, like duh...

    As far as how cannon, its hella cannon, its one of their few actual Warmaster units. Even in early editions of Warhammer proper we're Araby never got an army the magic carpet existed and as a magic item that could give any(?) lord flying.


    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Arabyan_Flying_Carpets

    This isn't some fan made BS this is actual Warhammer and if you got a problem with it faff off.
    Post edited by Canuovea#6291 on
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,396
    As for the bombs part - the fluff talked about them using conventional missile weapons such as bows, or dropping pots filled with venomous arthropods. Not technically bombs as we know them, but would either use a similar mechanic, or they'd behave similar to fireleech bolas.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,396
    animikh said:

    Draxynnic said:

    I'd probably put the Lore of Light up a few notches. It's been noted that the Light College in the Empire has been influenced by "southern traditions" rather than purely using the teachings of the High Elves, and it's probably more likely that they'd have got their material from Araby than from Nehekhara. I could also definitely see the Arabyans having put a priority on magic that's good against undead after the Wars of Death.

    animikh said:

    Nyxilis said:

    animikh said:

    tanspan88 said:

    Here’s a great long post on araby: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/216388/ultimate-araby-unit-list-the-canon-edition/p1

    I can see magic carpets as a mount at best.. like a disc of tzeench, but the idea of them forming groups and roaming round the battlefield, or worse still, engaging in glorius charges.. fills me with dread. Nope just too tacky.

    Araby could be a fantastic faction, and i agree with most of the above - mixed cavalry, mostly light/skirmisher, with elephants being used like chariots, and camels like a high endurance anti-cavalry fighter (gotta respect age of empires 2, of course camels do more damage to horses duh). Love the idea of the desert cav having something like smoke bomb..

    Infantry-wise, i’d say mostly fast lightly armed troops. Slightly higher attack and defence than empire troops, but less armour and leadership. Mix in some special troops (dancing girls, like witch elves) and a palace guard unit.

    Can’t see them having massed ranged firepower, either as archers or artillery.

    And of course various magical monsters with supporting and direct damage spells.

    Damn, really hope they’re added and done well.

    I agree with almost everything here. Though I personally feel they should change "flying carpets" altogether, and give them like giant falcons or something more appropriate.
    Flying carpets not appropriate? Neigh! We already have a faction with giant birds, lets stick with the carpets. The one area we actually get something unique and can potentially have a faction that uses 'bombs'.
    Flying carpets that can drop bombs for a middle eastern-ish faction is NOT creative/unique (or appropriate imo...but that's a diff topic). Besides, multiple factions have lord/army similar flying units and it's not a problem. Falcons have cultural significance in Arabia and they could just operate as fast hit n' run flying chariots.
    I'd call flying carpets more unique than another unit of birds or bird-hybrids. We already have Warhawks, Hippogryphs, and so on, and the High Elves have dibs on a flying chariot pulled by a giant bird. More generally, birds and bird-hybrids are among the most common sources of flight in fantasy settings, with the only real competition being dragons. Carpets are less common.

    I also don't know where the idea that carpets would be somehow inappropriate is coming from. Yes, they're in 1001 Nights. Saying that it's inappropriate to draw from a compilation of Middle Eastern faerie tales for a Middle Eastern-themed fantasy would be like saying it's inappropriate to draw from Grimm for a European-themed fantasy.
    The "dropping bombs" part IS inappropriate. Let me clarify, a literal 'flying carpet' is not unique or creative (it's literally a floating fabric). for me personally, idc how cannon this unit/mount is-it's hella dumb. A Phoenix mount, eagle mount or a flying Luminark, they are all better than a flying carpet
    You're confusing "creative" and "artistically simple".

    At this stage, another big bird is among the least creative things they can do. We've already got phoenixes, warhawks, giant eagles, gryphons, and hippogryphs, and as previously noted, High Elves have dibs on a flying artillery platform pulled by a big bird. There's pretty much zero creativity in adding another big bird.

    Flying carpets are a fantasy staple, particularly with respect to Middle Eastern settings. Now, that in itself means that it's less creative than an entirely original creation would be... but the point of the Warhammer licence is that most of the material isn't entirely original but drawing from what GW did (and they weren't exactly the epitome of creativity either). However, it's certainly more imaginative than Warhawks 2.0.
  • Mech_4Mech_4 Registered Users Posts: 230
    I would like to perhaps see Djinn heroes for Araby. Maybe even a Djinn legendary lord could be interesting with a focus on magic and unit buff abilities.
    The heroes could give buffs to cities like Allarielle does when she visits regions.

    I'm thinking quite a bit here of the djinn from Heroes of Might and Magic here. HoMM5 in particular.
  • Canuovea#6291Canuovea#6291 Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,959
    I think Araby could have a different approach to magic than other factions too. A lot of it is bound Djinns so something less winds of magic reliant might be nice. Or maybe they're bound spells but they take up a certain amount of winds of magic to determine how powerful it is?
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  • HeresyHoundHeresyHound Registered Users Posts: 8,285
    animikh said:

    Draxynnic said:

    I'd probably put the Lore of Light up a few notches. It's been noted that the Light College in the Empire has been influenced by "southern traditions" rather than purely using the teachings of the High Elves, and it's probably more likely that they'd have got their material from Araby than from Nehekhara. I could also definitely see the Arabyans having put a priority on magic that's good against undead after the Wars of Death.

    animikh said:

    Nyxilis said:

    animikh said:

    tanspan88 said:

    Here’s a great long post on araby: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/216388/ultimate-araby-unit-list-the-canon-edition/p1

    I can see magic carpets as a mount at best.. like a disc of tzeench, but the idea of them forming groups and roaming round the battlefield, or worse still, engaging in glorius charges.. fills me with dread. Nope just too tacky.

    Araby could be a fantastic faction, and i agree with most of the above - mixed cavalry, mostly light/skirmisher, with elephants being used like chariots, and camels like a high endurance anti-cavalry fighter (gotta respect age of empires 2, of course camels do more damage to horses duh). Love the idea of the desert cav having something like smoke bomb..

    Infantry-wise, i’d say mostly fast lightly armed troops. Slightly higher attack and defence than empire troops, but less armour and leadership. Mix in some special troops (dancing girls, like witch elves) and a palace guard unit.

    Can’t see them having massed ranged firepower, either as archers or artillery.

    And of course various magical monsters with supporting and direct damage spells.

    Damn, really hope they’re added and done well.

    I agree with almost everything here. Though I personally feel they should change "flying carpets" altogether, and give them like giant falcons or something more appropriate.
    Flying carpets not appropriate? Neigh! We already have a faction with giant birds, lets stick with the carpets. The one area we actually get something unique and can potentially have a faction that uses 'bombs'.
    Flying carpets that can drop bombs for a middle eastern-ish faction is NOT creative/unique (or appropriate imo...but that's a diff topic). Besides, multiple factions have lord/army similar flying units and it's not a problem. Falcons have cultural significance in Arabia and they could just operate as fast hit n' run flying chariots.
    I'd call flying carpets more unique than another unit of birds or bird-hybrids. We already have Warhawks, Hippogryphs, and so on, and the High Elves have dibs on a flying chariot pulled by a giant bird. More generally, birds and bird-hybrids are among the most common sources of flight in fantasy settings, with the only real competition being dragons. Carpets are less common.

    I also don't know where the idea that carpets would be somehow inappropriate is coming from. Yes, they're in 1001 Nights. Saying that it's inappropriate to draw from a compilation of Middle Eastern faerie tales for a Middle Eastern-themed fantasy would be like saying it's inappropriate to draw from Grimm for a European-themed fantasy.
    The "dropping bombs" part IS inappropriate. Let me clarify, a literal 'flying carpet' is not unique or creative (it's literally a floating fabric). for me personally, idc how cannon this unit/mount is-it's hella dumb. A Phoenix mount, eagle mount or a flying Luminark, they are all better than a flying carpet
    No that isn't inappropriate. You can't just remove everything that could maybe possibly be related to modern terrorists who live in a region that the area was based on many many years ago.

    And you are basically saying that a basic part of Arabian fantasy is stupid. Flying carpets aren't some recent invention. Its like saying dragons and knights are too clichéd. Flying carpets come up a lot in Arabian myth just like djinn.
  • NeoYasNeoYas Registered Users Posts: 969
    edited January 2019
    OdTengri said:

    Why, is dropping bombs out of a Gyrocopter inappropriate, how about from the talons of a Terradon. You know if flying carpets where real their first military application would be as a bombing platform, like duh...

    As far as how cannon, its hella cannon, its one of their few actual Warmaster units. Even in early editions of Warhammer proper we're Araby never got an army the magic carpet existed and as a magic item that could give any(?) lord flying.


    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Arabyan_Flying_Carpets

    This isn't some fan made BS this is actual Warhammer and if you got a problem with it faff off.

    I think naphta pots would be better than bombs, like naffatun of MII.
  • Pocman#6295Pocman#6295 Registered Users Posts: 5,754
    One thing to note from Araby is that is actually pretty much
    OdTengri said:

    I think the real questions regarding Araby are.

    1) How much Gunpowder should they have, we know its more than 0 but less than The Empire.

    basic cannons and small elephant mounted cannons
    OdTengri said:




    2) Their Heavy Cavalry is the best that mundane humans and mounts can be, in the last iteration of Warhammer that they where "current" they where described as the equals of Empire or Bretonnian Knights. Since then the Empire has received Demi-Gryph Knights and Bretonnia has Grail Knights. Araby has nothing to suggest they having anything that can compete on that level, whether or not something should be invented to do so is a major decision. If Araby does get something to rival Grail Knights, Dragon Princes, or Demi-Gryph Knights then they will be a powerful Cavalry faction, they'll be grade A. If they don't however, they'll be B or C Cavalry faction, and their Cav game will get shut down by superior factions.

    They should have mid grade cavalry, similar to reiksguards. Probably more mobile but less armored.
    OdTengri said:


    3) How many and what lores of magic should they have. If I had to list most to least appropriate based on my own subjective opinion it would look like this.

    • Lore of Araby
    • Lore of Heavens
    • Lore of Metal
    • Lore of Fire
    • Lore of Shadow
    • Lore of Death
    • Lore of Light
    • Lore of Life
    • Lore of Beasts
    The lore of Araby has to be included, IRL the Arab world where the first great Astrologers (Lore of Heavens) and Alchemy (Lore of Metal) also has its start in the Muslim Golden age. Fire just feels like a must if Efreet (Incarnate Elemental of Fire) is going to make it into the game. Shadow, Light and Death all feel like they would fit Araby but it also feels like the cultural reflections of those lores have already been given to Nehekara. Life and Especially Beasts feels out of place to me.
    Add lore of Tzeentch to that list (the Golden magus), take almost everything else. Lore of Araby is not a thing, take it out, plus almost everything else: It makes no sense that so many factions, including Slanns, are so limited, and that Araby should have 9 lores. Tzeentch, Heavens, Fire, and Deeps, (with maybe summoning the water/wind elementals instead of the crabs, and something instead of zombies) seems fair.
    OdTengri said:



    4) How many Djinn do we want to see, theoretically we could have one for each lore of magic that Araby has.

    In lore they have water, wind and fire. They should actually be bound elementals from the monstruous arcanum (or something that looks similar for the ones not there).
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771

    And you are basically saying that a basic part of Arabian fantasy is stupid. Flying carpets aren't some recent invention. Its like saying dragons and knights are too clichéd. Flying carpets come up a lot in Arabian myth just like djinn.

    They really didn't, though. Djinn are widespread throughout the Muslim world as they're tied into the religion itself, but the flying carpet only appears in one of the Arabian Nights stories and even then it's more of a teleporting carpet in the original. It's just one of the only things westerners are familiar with from that tradition, but that doesn't mean its especially important or widespread within that tradition. We all know magic lamps too, but those aren't a big feature of Arabian legends, there's just the one in Aladdin.
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,217
    NeoYas said:

    OdTengri said:

    Why, is dropping bombs out of a Gyrocopter inappropriate, how about from the talons of a Terradon. You know if flying carpets where real their first military application would be as a bombing platform, like duh...

    As far as how cannon, its hella cannon, its one of their few actual Warmaster units. Even in early editions of Warhammer proper we're Araby never got an army the magic carpet existed and as a magic item that could give any(?) lord flying.


    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Arabyan_Flying_Carpets

    This isn't some fan made BS this is actual Warhammer and if you got a problem with it faff off.

    I think naphta pots would be better than bombs, like naffatun of MII.
    Yeah, I never liked the "pots of scorpions". I would much prefer fire bombs.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    OdTengri said:

    NeoYas said:

    OdTengri said:

    Why, is dropping bombs out of a Gyrocopter inappropriate, how about from the talons of a Terradon. You know if flying carpets where real their first military application would be as a bombing platform, like duh...

    As far as how cannon, its hella cannon, its one of their few actual Warmaster units. Even in early editions of Warhammer proper we're Araby never got an army the magic carpet existed and as a magic item that could give any(?) lord flying.


    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Arabyan_Flying_Carpets

    This isn't some fan made BS this is actual Warhammer and if you got a problem with it faff off.

    I think naphta pots would be better than bombs, like naffatun of MII.
    Yeah, I never liked the "pots of scorpions". I would much prefer fire bombs.
    Here's a thought: what about pots of djinn? In Arabian folklore the "magic lamp" wasn't super common. More often imprisoned djinn were thought to be kept in clay jars with lead stoppers, and the Seal of Solomon inscribed on the stopper as a magical ward to keep the djinni inside.

    What if they were throwing clay jars like that, each containing a lesser fire efreet? The jar shatters, the efreet escapes, burns everything nearby, and then dissolves back into the immaterium since its bindings have been broken? You could even have a neat animation as the jars explode, with a fiery spirit briefly appearing in the flames and then fading away.
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,217
    Pocman said:

    OdTengri said:


    3) How many and what lores of magic should they have. If I had to list most to least appropriate based on my own subjective opinion it would look like this.

    • Lore of Araby
    • Lore of Heavens
    • Lore of Metal
    • Lore of Fire
    • Lore of Shadow
    • Lore of Death
    • Lore of Light
    • Lore of Life
    • Lore of Beasts
    The lore of Araby has to be included, IRL the Arab world where the first great Astrologers (Lore of Heavens) and Alchemy (Lore of Metal) also has its start in the Muslim Golden age. Fire just feels like a must if Efreet (Incarnate Elemental of Fire) is going to make it into the game. Shadow, Light and Death all feel like they would fit Araby but it also feels like the cultural reflections of those lores have already been given to Nehekara. Life and Especially Beasts feels out of place to me.
    Add lore of Tzeentch to that list (the Golden magus), take almost everything else. Lore of Araby is not a thing, take it out, plus almost everything else: It makes no sense that so many factions, including Slanns, are so limited, and that Araby should have 9 lores. Tzeentch, Heavens, Fire, and Deeps, (with maybe summoning the water/wind elementals instead of the crabs, and something instead of zombies) seems fair.


    Lore of Araby is totally a thing, Araby should have it.

    Lore of Tzeentch could be something that the Golden Magus has but it wouldn't otherwise be reflective of Araby.

    My short list would be, Araby, Heavens, Metal, Fire, and one more for a total of 5 lores.
  • Blacksphemy#9850Blacksphemy#9850 Registered Users Posts: 641
    I hope we get to see the Rok as a two headed bird of prey that gets a bonus against other flyers specifically. On a side note, iv been waiting for "flyers" to be a special category that some few other units get a bonus against when attacking in the air. A dragon should be much more vulnerable to arrows when flying with his belly exposed as opposed to when he lands, and a Rok could work like a giant hunting falcon that specializes in attacking other airborn
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,217
    Bonus V. Flying is something I think should be considered.
  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310

    I hope we get to see the Rok as a two headed bird of prey that gets a bonus against other flyers specifically. On a side note, iv been waiting for "flyers" to be a special category that some few other units get a bonus against when attacking in the air. A dragon should be much more vulnerable to arrows when flying with his belly exposed as opposed to when he lands, and a Rok could work like a giant hunting falcon that specializes in attacking other airborn

    I'm on board, you could give certain units bonus damage versus flying in order to improve their utility. Dwarf bolt throwers in particular need something to keep them viable after you unlock cannons. Besides, both in lore and the TT (via the appropriate runes) bolt throwers were the Dwarfs' weapon of choice for flyers, though cannons did have the ever-important multiple wounds.
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