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Give Dwarfs silver shields!

GreyKnightDantesGreyKnightDantes Posts: 213Registered Users
Their shields are obviously cover nearly 90% of their body, so why not give it to them? This could really make the dwarfs even more powerful defensive army.
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When you are trying hard not to burn people but you smell heresy in the air...


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Comments

  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 1,391Registered Users
    Shhh! The MP guys will hear you! They will bring The Sword of Ultimate Balance to bear and mortals like us will tremble!

    Heed me fellow mortals, I beg of you. No good will come of this.

    *scurries away*
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Posts: 3,232Registered Users

    Their shields are obviously cover nearly 90% of their body, so why not give it to them? This could really make the dwarfs even more powerful defensive army.

    From a logical standpoint it makes sense, but it'd probably just be too imbalanced. They've already got a ton of armor. Not that I'd complain if it was changed.
    Build a Slayer Hero and make Miners, Rangers, and Irondrakes great again! Thorek Ironbrow 2020

  • yx3768031yx3768031 Posts: 156Registered Users
    Dwarf already sits at the bottom tie of MP. Silver shields may help them
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 1,624Registered Users
    This has been baffling me from the beginning too. Would be thematically fitting and wouldn't be game breaking since shields only work for frontal attacks and dwarfs are easy to surround. Even cheap gobbos have silver shields while the most defensive faction have none except one DLC lord.
  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 5,176Registered Users

    Shhh! The MP guys will hear you!

    All five of them.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Posts: 1,933Registered Users
    Xenos7 said:

    Shhh! The MP guys will hear you!

    All five of them.
    Kings of no body
    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,416Registered Users
    Completely agree, its stupid that goblins get it and Dwarfs dont.

    Btw im a multiplayer guy and I give my consent


  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 17,247Registered Users
    It's always sad to see MP'ers get attacked without reason.

    Dwarfs should have them, would be neat.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,916Registered Users
    You can have your shields when the numbers and toughness of Orcs is properly represented in game.







    So, you know, never.

    :-P
  • TalmoreanTalmorean Posts: 1,435Registered Users
    Xenos7 said:

    Shhh! The MP guys will hear you!

    All five of them.
    Ah the budget money and dev time spent on MP balance...not to mention MP maps...

    I guess its really just for the Youtubers to play and give free advertising.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Posts: 1,933Registered Users
    Talmorean said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Shhh! The MP guys will hear you!

    All five of them.
    Ah the budget money and dev time spent on MP balance...not to mention MP maps...

    I guess its really just for the Youtubers to play and give free advertising.
    Because SP gains nothing from MP balance and hasn't gotten any development since the launch of WH1. Additionally all balance changes had been made purely off of MP alone, despite what the devs have said in the past, because we can read their deep inner thoughts. We knows what their real intentions are, where their real loyalties lay.

    It's always sad to see MP'ers get attacked without reason.

    Dwarfs should have them, would be neat.

    They are a convenient scapegoat that prevents the capturing of each individual here perfect vision for the game.

    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,916Registered Users
    To be fair... the MP crowd is directly responsible for a bunch of changes that are negative to the SP experience since Rome 2.

    Strangely not in Shogun 2... but I think that game was designed from the ground up to be pretty set for MP -- everyone having very nearly the same rosters kinda helps there thought, I think.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,838Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    To be fair... the MP crowd is directly responsible for a bunch of changes that are negative to the SP experience since Rome 2.

    Strangely not in Shogun 2... but I think that game was designed from the ground up to be pretty set for MP -- everyone having very nearly the same rosters kinda helps there thought, I think.

    Like what? Name examples and evidence the "MP Crowd" is responsible for them.

  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 7,325Registered Users
    edited January 2019
    Hellebron being nerfed from being able to drive around on her Blood Wagon and influcting a DoT effect on all units clipped really killed my SP game. Maybe that is why I still haven’t played Hellebron?

    I enjoy the effort to try to assymetrically balance the armies of TWW. Just as I did on the table top. It’s just unit stats, spells and some items.

    That leaves rites, mechanics, buildings, tech, Swords of Khaines, climate preferences, faction effects, skill trees, followers, other items, province commandments, starting positions, diplomacy, victory conditions and what have you that can be used to make the single player experience as wonky as you’d like. Especially if you bring any of the wealth of mods to bear.


    Oh and silver shields for the Dawi? Why nae?
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,838Registered Users
    edited January 2019
    Silver shields wouldn't help them because that's not their problem. Their ranged game is already excellent and making it even better still keeps all of their weaknesses intact. Their problem is their lack of mobility and high mass units which means they close to never have the initiative and chariots, cavalry and monsters can abuse them.

    Also, Dwarfs are not bottom tier, Skaven are. They have the same weaknesses as Dwarfs compounded by also having low armor and low leadership values across the board with a much weaker ranged game.

  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,987Registered Users

    Itharus said:

    To be fair... the MP crowd is directly responsible for a bunch of changes that are negative to the SP experience since Rome 2.

    Strangely not in Shogun 2... but I think that game was designed from the ground up to be pretty set for MP -- everyone having very nearly the same rosters kinda helps there thought, I think.

    Like what? Name examples and evidence the "MP Crowd" is responsible for them.
    Every single patch there are dozens upon dozens of tweaks for mper.

    +25 cost, -25 cost, -2 MD, +1 MA.

    While huge balance issues in sper remain (like AI in sieges)

    I play mper (much less than sper) but i buy the gsmes 100% for the sper experience.

    Many companies have gone the route of "games as services" which means a shift to mper.

    The incredible focus on mper balance patch after patch is not good.

    Whereis the CA duck for sper balance? Where are 50 changes for sper per patch?

    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,987Registered Users
    We finally got talent fixed for old world races! Love that. More stuff like that and at a faster pace (was an update to the update just now!)
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 7,325Registered Users
    The whole point of assymetric balancing is to keep weaknesses at least relatively intact. So that leaves improving the strengths.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 17,247Registered Users

    Itharus said:

    To be fair... the MP crowd is directly responsible for a bunch of changes that are negative to the SP experience since Rome 2.

    Strangely not in Shogun 2... but I think that game was designed from the ground up to be pretty set for MP -- everyone having very nearly the same rosters kinda helps there thought, I think.

    Like what? Name examples and evidence the "MP Crowd" is responsible for them.
    I too would like to see this.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,838Registered Users

    Itharus said:

    To be fair... the MP crowd is directly responsible for a bunch of changes that are negative to the SP experience since Rome 2.

    Strangely not in Shogun 2... but I think that game was designed from the ground up to be pretty set for MP -- everyone having very nearly the same rosters kinda helps there thought, I think.

    Like what? Name examples and evidence the "MP Crowd" is responsible for them.
    Every single patch there are dozens upon dozens of tweaks for mper.

    +25 cost, -25 cost, -2 MD, +1 MA.

    While huge balance issues in sper remain (like AI in sieges)

    I play mper (much less than sper) but i buy the gsmes 100% for the sper experience.

    Many companies have gone the route of "games as services" which means a shift to mper.

    The incredible focus on mper balance patch after patch is not good.

    Whereis the CA duck for sper balance? Where are 50 changes for sper per patch?

    Those stat changes are implemented by changing one line in the database. AI changes are way more complicated than that so of course you see more of the former than the latter.

    Still waiting for examples of MP balance changes clamored for by MPlayers actually making SP worse.

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,838Registered Users
    RikRiorik said:

    The whole point of assymetric balancing is to keep weaknesses at least relatively intact. So that leaves improving the strengths.

    Except that balance fully negates their strength. What use is a strong backline when you can't adequately defend it?

  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,487Registered Users, Moderators
    The example given prior was nerfing Vanguard because of Vlad's army vanguarding ability.

    Still not sure it applied in MP, but I've been told it did.
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  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 17,247Registered Users

    RikRiorik said:

    The whole point of assymetric balancing is to keep weaknesses at least relatively intact. So that leaves improving the strengths.

    Except that balance fully negates their strength. What use is a strong backline when you can't adequately defend it?
    Half the point of the Dwarf backline is that it to a defends itself well enough for the other elements to support it.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,987Registered Users

    Itharus said:

    To be fair... the MP crowd is directly responsible for a bunch of changes that are negative to the SP experience since Rome 2.

    Strangely not in Shogun 2... but I think that game was designed from the ground up to be pretty set for MP -- everyone having very nearly the same rosters kinda helps there thought, I think.

    Like what? Name examples and evidence the "MP Crowd" is responsible for them.
    Every single patch there are dozens upon dozens of tweaks for mper.

    +25 cost, -25 cost, -2 MD, +1 MA.

    While huge balance issues in sper remain (like AI in sieges)

    I play mper (much less than sper) but i buy the gsmes 100% for the sper experience.

    Many companies have gone the route of "games as services" which means a shift to mper.

    The incredible focus on mper balance patch after patch is not good.

    Whereis the CA duck for sper balance? Where are 50 changes for sper per patch?

    Those stat changes are implemented by changing one line in the database. AI changes are way more complicated than that so of course you see more of the former than the latter.

    Still waiting for examples of MP balance changes clamored for by MPlayers actually making SP worse.
    Oh most mper changes are good for sper balance.

    But CA duck should not spend his focus on mper imo. It should be sper balance.

    Some changes for mper has been great for sper. Heal cap!

    Some changes have been bad. First healing potions and toughness potions were introduced to mper. Then these got nerfed how much they heal. Didny help so they were removed in mper. But the nerf to them stayed. Making toughness potion much weaker in sp which was uncalled for. A very cool item became "meh".

    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    edited January 2019

    Shhh! The MP guys will hear you! They will bring The Sword of Ultimate Balance to bear and mortals like us will tremble!

    Heed me fellow mortals, I beg of you. No good will come of this.

    *scurries away*

    I was already in "NO **** WAY WHAT ARE YOU SAYING THAT WOULD BE INSANELY OP" mode, and you defused it.

    Thanks, getting angry is not good for my frail, weak, overly muscled body.
  • GettoGeckoGettoGecko Posts: 803Registered Users
    What a great discussion about... the sound of shield blocks. :joy:

    Seriously I am astonished about how many people contribute to a topic and basicallly are clueless what they are talking about.
    The color of the shield doesn't say anything about value behind it, it only tells you which audio file is attached to the unit for a wooden or a metal block sound.
    You can find the values in the unit_shield_typ_tables and there is always a wood and a metal variant form 30-60%, the only exception is 20% with only a metal variant because Swordmaster of Hoeth don't use wooden swords to train.
    So why would dwarfs get better in combat when they have other audio in combat?
    But maybe they should switch with Swordmasters because 20% in metal sound better than iirc 55% in wood right?
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    Now that i am more relaxed:

    Regarding the "MP damages SP" is false. MP may make steamrolling the campaign in a way that is too easy for the selected difficulty level impossible, which may make certain people ****. But that is not a bad change, quite the contrary. The small changes for MP benefit SP. There are plenty of examples of design and bug fixes that result of the work of the MP community:

    - Cavalry mass being fixed: thanks to MP, elite cavalry units such as blood knights no longer have less mass than infantry and can actually disengage after the charge.
    - Treemen, Tyrion and Archaon being made AP units: they were lords and units that felt (well, Tyrion in campaign was probably okay thanks to the insane bonuses) inadequate since they were released, and that finally found a role.
    - Empire artillery being fixed and finally having the expected quality.
    - Flying units charge pacing being fixed (still a work in progress though).
    - Waywatchers and Waystalkers finally getting hawkish precision.
    - The fix (included in the Festag beta patch) to certain monsters that were being stunlocked due to not having
    Obviously, there are very minor exceptions: for example, the potions mentioned earlier. But there is no company that makes the right decissions 100% of the time.

    In addition to that, the small MP changes makes the SP experience more balanced too, even if it is sometimes difficult to tell because the small changes do not have an obvious effect at first.

    Regarding the thread: Giving dawis silver shields makes no sense. And I am not saying it from a MP perspective only. Yeah, the shield may look bigger in a dawi than in a human, but if you compare a longbeard with a chaos warrior or a eternal guard, it is still pretty obvious that in proportion the longbeard's shield is just not as big.
  • hanenhanen Posts: 367Registered Users
    Just add it as a research option.

    Everyone is happy!
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 7,325Registered Users

    What a great discussion about... the sound of shield blocks. :joy:

    Seriously I am astonished about how many people contribute to a topic and basicallly are clueless what they are talking about.
    The color of the shield doesn't say anything about value behind it, it only tells you which audio file is attached to the unit for a wooden or a metal block sound.
    You can find the values in the unit_shield_typ_tables and there is always a wood and a metal variant form 30-60%, the only exception is 20% with only a metal variant because Swordmaster of Hoeth don't use wooden swords to train.
    So why would dwarfs get better in combat when they have other audio in combat?
    But maybe they should switch with Swordmasters because 20% in metal sound better than iirc 55% in wood right?

    Tooltip says 35% block of missile fire for bronze shields and 55% for silver shields.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • SagrandaSagranda Posts: 1,659Registered Users
    edited January 2019

    What a great discussion about... the sound of shield blocks. :joy:

    Seriously I am astonished about how many people contribute to a topic and basicallly are clueless what they are talking about.
    The color of the shield doesn't say anything about value behind it, it only tells you which audio file is attached to the unit for a wooden or a metal block sound.
    You can find the values in the unit_shield_typ_tables and there is always a wood and a metal variant form 30-60%, the only exception is 20% with only a metal variant because Swordmaster of Hoeth don't use wooden swords to train.
    So why would dwarfs get better in combat when they have other audio in combat?
    But maybe they should switch with Swordmasters because 20% in metal sound better than iirc 55% in wood right?

    Ok, let's go to land_units and compare it to how the shields are shown ingame.

    Ironbreakers have a bronze shield -> Metal with a value of 35%

    Sea Guards have a silver shield -> Metal with a value of 55%

    Stormvermins have a bronze shield -> Wood with a value of 35%

    Goblins have a silver shield -> Wood with a value of 55%

    Orc Boyz have a bronze shield -> Wood with a value of 35%

    TK Spearmen have a silver shield -> Metal with a value of 55%
    TK RoR Spearmen have a silver shield -> Wood with a value of 55%
    Disclaimer: What I say is my opinion and not necessarily stated as fact.
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