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Give Dwarfs silver shields!

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  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,168
    Canuovea said:

    The example given prior was nerfing Vanguard because of Vlad's army vanguarding ability.

    Still not sure it applied in MP, but I've been told it did.

    That wasn't actually anything to do with MP since it was Vlads campaign only ability and it was an unnamed change in the patch notes. And lets be honest balance in Campaign gets thrown out the window with the amount of buffs one can get especially if the player is a Wood Elf.
    heck I even made the below about it

    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 8,505
    What was Vanguard like before?
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,168
    RikRiorik said:

    What was Vanguard like before?

    From memory I think Vlad messing with it made the vanguard areas smaller much smaller possibly even impossible to spawn behind or on the flanks of the enemy.

    It was first reported in the link below but it has been fixed now.
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/184025/why-has-vanguard-deployment-zone-been-removed-nerfed
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 8,505
    Well wouldn’t say Vanguard is useless now but definitely less useful then. Cheers.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • sieahsieah Registered Users Posts: 963



    Those stat changes are implemented by changing one line in the database. AI changes are way more complicated than that so of course you see more of the former than the latter.

    Still waiting for examples of MP balance changes clamored for by MPlayers actually making SP worse.

    Healing cap.
    Mortis engine "balance changes".
    Recent rampage changes.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,986
    sieah said:



    Those stat changes are implemented by changing one line in the database. AI changes are way more complicated than that so of course you see more of the former than the latter.

    Still waiting for examples of MP balance changes clamored for by MPlayers actually making SP worse.

    Healing cap.
    Mortis engine "balance changes".
    Recent rampage changes.
    All you've done is list three changes, I don't see any connection to MP'ers.

    Too often MP'ers are the scapegoat for any negative changes, while any positive changes they may bring are simply ignored.
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • sieahsieah Registered Users Posts: 963
    edited January 2019
    All these "useful" changes are because of MP "community" only and the "Balancing" Discussion forum. No SP guy would ever want this kind of BS.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,986
    sieah said:

    All these "useful" changes are because of MP only and the "Balancing" Discussion forum. No SP guy would ever want this kind of BS.

    I still don't see any evidence for MP being behind those changes.

    There's no need or reason to use MP as a punching bag,
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • Southern_HunterSouthern_Hunter Registered Users Posts: 170
    As a Dawi enthusiast I would greatly welcome better defensive shields. It makes sense and better matches the models.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,031
    I dunno.

    Silver shields may be to much imo. (Vs non ap missiles allready heavy armor etc)
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,636
    edited January 2019
    sieah said:



    Those stat changes are implemented by changing one line in the database. AI changes are way more complicated than that so of course you see more of the former than the latter.

    Still waiting for examples of MP balance changes clamored for by MPlayers actually making SP worse.

    Healing cap.
    Mortis engine "balance changes".
    Recent rampage changes.
    "Recent rampage changes".

    You mean that cold blooded is now closer to its use on Tabletop (as well as, amusingly closer to realism, because just being cold blooded =/= regen) as well as allowing you to cancel regen? The only negative is that the Horned Ones also Rampage now?

    Also, considering how annoying some lords are to take down even with Healing Cap, I dont want to imagine how, in the campaign, people would complain that an AI Vlad or whoever just destroyed 2 or 3 stacks on his own because you couldn't outperform his regen by a large enough margin... especially on higher difficulties with the AI buffs...
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN! TOTAL WAR TROY FOR ONE YEAR EXCLUSIVELY ON THE EPIC GAMES STORE!"

    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Xenos7Xenos7 Registered Users Posts: 5,753
    edited January 2019
    Talmorean said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Shhh! The MP guys will hear you!

    All five of them.
    Ah the budget money and dev time spent on MP balance...not to mention MP maps...

    I guess its really just for the Youtubers to play and give free advertising.
    It's not just this game. If multiplayer was never invented the art of game design would be better off by now.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443
    RikRiorik said:

    Hellebron being nerfed from being able to drive around on her Blood Wagon and influcting a DoT effect on all units clipped really killed my SP game. Maybe that is why I still haven’t played Hellebron?

    I enjoy the effort to try to assymetrically balance the armies of TWW. Just as I did on the table top. It’s just unit stats, spells and some items.

    That leaves rites, mechanics, buildings, tech, Swords of Khaines, climate preferences, faction effects, skill trees, followers, other items, province commandments, starting positions, diplomacy, victory conditions and what have you that can be used to make the single player experience as wonky as you’d like. Especially if you bring any of the wealth of mods to bear.


    Oh and silver shields for the Dawi? Why nae?

    Hahahaha sorry your example is ****, CA said that the Elebron thing was a bug and never intended


  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443

    Itharus said:

    To be fair... the MP crowd is directly responsible for a bunch of changes that are negative to the SP experience since Rome 2.

    Strangely not in Shogun 2... but I think that game was designed from the ground up to be pretty set for MP -- everyone having very nearly the same rosters kinda helps there thought, I think.

    Like what? Name examples and evidence the "MP Crowd" is responsible for them.
    Every single patch there are dozens upon dozens of tweaks for mper.

    +25 cost, -25 cost, -2 MD, +1 MA.

    While huge balance issues in sper remain (like AI in sieges)

    I play mper (much less than sper) but i buy the gsmes 100% for the sper experience.

    Many companies have gone the route of "games as services" which means a shift to mper.

    The incredible focus on mper balance patch after patch is not good.

    Whereis the CA duck for sper balance? Where are 50 changes for sper per patch?

    Sper balance is much much much more complicated than MP one, a -25 gold wont change **** for your campaign. Mper are the best placed people to judge the state of the battle to make them even better and more balanced. Keeping in check so that abusing a single unit of speell is not doable, sper can be changed by tons of mods, wich is what most sper do.

    Changing lets say the AI in siege is a hundred times harder than changin a statline


  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,168
    edited January 2019
    Xenos7 said:

    Talmorean said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Shhh! The MP guys will hear you!

    All five of them.
    Ah the budget money and dev time spent on MP balance...not to mention MP maps...

    I guess its really just for the Youtubers to play and give free advertising.
    It's not just this game. If multiplayer was never invented the art of game design would be better off by now.
    Yes Bretonnia would be able to kill Chaos Warriors with ease by sending in an equal amount of Foot Squires.
    Edit: (being silly on people who complained about MP when FS got nerfed even though they were breaking asymmetrical balance)
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443
    sieah said:



    Those stat changes are implemented by changing one line in the database. AI changes are way more complicated than that so of course you see more of the former than the latter.

    Still waiting for examples of MP balance changes clamored for by MPlayers actually making SP worse.

    Healing cap.
    Mortis engine "balance changes".
    Recent rampage changes.
    Dont you blame rampage changes on us, leterally no one in the MPer community wanted it and we literslly bashed CA for multiple threads for that.

    Healing cap is a good change in campaign, lets be honest, having Louen with basically unlimited HP is **** stupid, it made regen far too strong. Atm you actually need to be carefull with those guys, making healing not always the best lore option, increasing diversity.

    People that complain about Mper balance are people that just dont care at all about balance and wants to win through using the most broken things.


  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 8,505
    Kranox said:

    RikRiorik said:

    Hellebron being nerfed from being able to drive around on her Blood Wagon and influcting a DoT effect on all units clipped really killed my SP game. Maybe that is why I still haven’t played Hellebron?

    I enjoy the effort to try to assymetrically balance the armies of TWW. Just as I did on the table top. It’s just unit stats, spells and some items.

    That leaves rites, mechanics, buildings, tech, Swords of Khaines, climate preferences, faction effects, skill trees, followers, other items, province commandments, starting positions, diplomacy, victory conditions and what have you that can be used to make the single player experience as wonky as you’d like. Especially if you bring any of the wealth of mods to bear.


    Oh and silver shields for the Dawi? Why nae?

    Hahahaha sorry your example is ****, CA said that the Elebron thing was a bug and never intended
    Yet I remember very well how despite all this or at least prior to it being named an official bug there were voices lamenting how MPers were destroying her SP awesomesaucing and how bad it was that MPers were so intent on destroying a thing that was powerful in absurdum in the name of MP balance. Couldn’t the SP experience have just a little madness left alone?
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443
    RikRiorik said:

    Kranox said:

    RikRiorik said:

    Hellebron being nerfed from being able to drive around on her Blood Wagon and influcting a DoT effect on all units clipped really killed my SP game. Maybe that is why I still haven’t played Hellebron?

    I enjoy the effort to try to assymetrically balance the armies of TWW. Just as I did on the table top. It’s just unit stats, spells and some items.

    That leaves rites, mechanics, buildings, tech, Swords of Khaines, climate preferences, faction effects, skill trees, followers, other items, province commandments, starting positions, diplomacy, victory conditions and what have you that can be used to make the single player experience as wonky as you’d like. Especially if you bring any of the wealth of mods to bear.


    Oh and silver shields for the Dawi? Why nae?

    Hahahaha sorry your example is ****, CA said that the Elebron thing was a bug and never intended
    Yet I remember very well how despite all this or at least prior to it being named an official bug there were voices lamenting how MPers were destroying her SP awesomesaucing and how bad it was that MPers were so intent on destroying a thing that was powerful in absurdum in the name of MP balance. Couldn’t the SP experience have just a little madness left alone?
    Well im sorry, isnt it the sper croud that always ask for bug fix ?

    That was a bug and it got fixed.

    There is multiple items that are in sper and not in MP, just make strong items for sper only, hell look at the sword of khaine.

    Look if you wsnt broken things just go and install a mod. Facing hellebron before was an absolute nightmare, destroying your elite infantry in seconds. Was utterly stupid


  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,168
    RikRiorik said:

    Kranox said:

    RikRiorik said:

    Hellebron being nerfed from being able to drive around on her Blood Wagon and influcting a DoT effect on all units clipped really killed my SP game. Maybe that is why I still haven’t played Hellebron?

    I enjoy the effort to try to assymetrically balance the armies of TWW. Just as I did on the table top. It’s just unit stats, spells and some items.

    That leaves rites, mechanics, buildings, tech, Swords of Khaines, climate preferences, faction effects, skill trees, followers, other items, province commandments, starting positions, diplomacy, victory conditions and what have you that can be used to make the single player experience as wonky as you’d like. Especially if you bring any of the wealth of mods to bear.


    Oh and silver shields for the Dawi? Why nae?

    Hahahaha sorry your example is ****, CA said that the Elebron thing was a bug and never intended
    Yet I remember very well how despite all this or at least prior to it being named an official bug there were voices lamenting how MPers were destroying her SP awesomesaucing and how bad it was that MPers were so intent on destroying a thing that was powerful in absurdum in the name of MP balance. Couldn’t the SP experience have just a little madness left alone?
    Because people don't want asymmetrical balance and just want a broken game.
    We've had people complain about MP balance when Foot Squires were nerfed for breaking asymmetrical balance (they were killing Bestigors, Chaos Warriors with great weapons and Graveguard with great weapons in a one on one which under asymmetrical balance shouldn't happen since their weakness is meant to be their Infantry) and with Hellebron we've had BUG REPORTS being called MP Balance.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,031
    edited January 2019
    CA duck works with mper balance.

    So CA needs to assign one dude for working with patching diplomacy every patch. Expect atleast 20+ minor tweaks every patch.

    One dude that tweaks tech tree balance.

    One dude that works with AI.

    Then the proportions between how important mper is (1%) and sper is (99%) are better.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Registered Users Posts: 1,892
    This thread got a little sidetracked on MP and for that I feel a tad responsible.

    Humble apologies. I was merely poking fun.

    That said, if dwarfs are still low tier in MP, maybe this would work. It makes sense. Dwarfs are the epitome of a stone wall in the lore. They shouldn't suffer much to arrows from the front. Of course, they are very fat... but who am I to judge?

    Also, if greenskins and vampires (their main SP foes) are trying to win by shooting stunties to death, they are probably doing something wrong.
    Grom comes. Elves quake. Grom comes. Dragons wake.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 8,505
    Kranox said:

    RikRiorik said:

    Kranox said:

    RikRiorik said:

    Hellebron being nerfed from being able to drive around on her Blood Wagon and influcting a DoT effect on all units clipped really killed my SP game. Maybe that is why I still haven’t played Hellebron?

    I enjoy the effort to try to assymetrically balance the armies of TWW. Just as I did on the table top. It’s just unit stats, spells and some items.

    That leaves rites, mechanics, buildings, tech, Swords of Khaines, climate preferences, faction effects, skill trees, followers, other items, province commandments, starting positions, diplomacy, victory conditions and what have you that can be used to make the single player experience as wonky as you’d like. Especially if you bring any of the wealth of mods to bear.


    Oh and silver shields for the Dawi? Why nae?

    Hahahaha sorry your example is ****, CA said that the Elebron thing was a bug and never intended
    Yet I remember very well how despite all this or at least prior to it being named an official bug there were voices lamenting how MPers were destroying her SP awesomesaucing and how bad it was that MPers were so intent on destroying a thing that was powerful in absurdum in the name of MP balance. Couldn’t the SP experience have just a little madness left alone?
    Well im sorry, isnt it the sper croud that always ask for bug fix ?

    That was a bug and it got fixed.

    There is multiple items that are in sper and not in MP, just make strong items for sper only, hell look at the sword of khaine.

    Look if you wsnt broken things just go and install a mod. Facing hellebron before was an absolute nightmare, destroying your elite infantry in seconds. Was utterly stupid
    I think we’re in agreement.

    And to @Grom_the_Paunch all is forgiven. Now back to Misty Mountain with you!
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,031
    RikRiorik said:

    Kranox said:

    RikRiorik said:

    Kranox said:

    RikRiorik said:

    Hellebron being nerfed from being able to drive around on her Blood Wagon and influcting a DoT effect on all units clipped really killed my SP game. Maybe that is why I still haven’t played Hellebron?

    I enjoy the effort to try to assymetrically balance the armies of TWW. Just as I did on the table top. It’s just unit stats, spells and some items.

    That leaves rites, mechanics, buildings, tech, Swords of Khaines, climate preferences, faction effects, skill trees, followers, other items, province commandments, starting positions, diplomacy, victory conditions and what have you that can be used to make the single player experience as wonky as you’d like. Especially if you bring any of the wealth of mods to bear.


    Oh and silver shields for the Dawi? Why nae?

    Hahahaha sorry your example is ****, CA said that the Elebron thing was a bug and never intended
    Yet I remember very well how despite all this or at least prior to it being named an official bug there were voices lamenting how MPers were destroying her SP awesomesaucing and how bad it was that MPers were so intent on destroying a thing that was powerful in absurdum in the name of MP balance. Couldn’t the SP experience have just a little madness left alone?
    Well im sorry, isnt it the sper croud that always ask for bug fix ?

    That was a bug and it got fixed.

    There is multiple items that are in sper and not in MP, just make strong items for sper only, hell look at the sword of khaine.

    Look if you wsnt broken things just go and install a mod. Facing hellebron before was an absolute nightmare, destroying your elite infantry in seconds. Was utterly stupid
    I think we’re in agreement.

    And to @Grom_the_Paunch all is forgiven. Now back to Misty Mountain with you!
    Far over the misty mountains cold, to dungeons deep and caverns....

    I like the idea of making the dawi rank n file alittle more elite but silver shields isnt the way to do it imo
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,800
    I too blame MP. They hurt my dragons.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,878
    MPers basically had the Odrysian Kingdom nerfed into the dirt pointlessly just because some folks were mad. Now, that was CA's over-nerfing too, but it NEVER GOT FIXED and was 100% due to MP.

    Granted most of R2's MP related nerfages got reversed or mellowed down over time.

    Attila's entire DESIGN was MP related, hence the greatly reduced variety in rosters and the rigid rock paper scissors by 'cultural group' that simplified everything (worked great in Shogun not so much for Attila).

    I could still **** swear Vlad vanguarded in MP as well. I mean it's a standard lord's army ability, it was not related to campaign but the lord purely. And even if I'm wrong and it wasn't Vlad -- it was still the MP crowd hating on Vanguard, which was, again, drastically over nerfed by CA.

    MP also got the Little Waaagh! (and some big waaagh!) spells nerfed by getting AOE removed from most of the buffs -- which was never reversed even as Greenskins were left utterly behind by the power creep. I'm not sure if Night Shroud was turned into it's current uselessness by MP demand or not, given that it's still present as a lore of beasts spell (which **** me off)... but it wouldn't surprise me. Still though, that one might be all CA.

    To a question earlier, what was Vanguard like before?

    Basically you had a lot more deployment area. You know how the deployment zone goes horizontally all the way across? With vanguard, take about 12.5% off of each side of that, maybe 15%. You could basically deploy on the flanks of an enemy - at a distance, but still there. That was the most important change (especially given map design!). Also, the area in front of an army separating the two used to be about half as much. This is honestly more or less how deployment is handled like that in the Warhammer TT games, the vanguard area is quite large. It's very important for certain armies (such as beastmen, greenskins, skaven, and in general low-armor aggressive forces with a lot of infantry). It was literally a death knell to a huge portion of goblin's usefulness.

    One of the reasons Vlad takes the heat for this is a) timing, and b) no one was really complaining about vanguarding goblins or beastmen and skaven didnt exist yet. It was only after Vlad that anything was done to it.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,168
    Itharus said:

    MPers basically had the Odrysian Kingdom nerfed into the dirt pointlessly just because some folks were mad. Now, that was CA's over-nerfing too, but it NEVER GOT FIXED and was 100% due to MP.

    Granted most of R2's MP related nerfages got reversed or mellowed down over time.

    Attila's entire DESIGN was MP related, hence the greatly reduced variety in rosters and the rigid rock paper scissors by 'cultural group' that simplified everything (worked great in Shogun not so much for Attila).

    I could still **** swear Vlad vanguarded in MP as well. I mean it's a standard lord's army ability, it was not related to campaign but the lord purely. And even if I'm wrong and it wasn't Vlad -- it was still the MP crowd hating on Vanguard, which was, again, drastically over nerfed by CA.

    MP also got the Little Waaagh! (and some big waaagh!) spells nerfed by getting AOE removed from most of the buffs -- which was never reversed even as Greenskins were left utterly behind by the power creep. I'm not sure if Night Shroud was turned into it's current uselessness by MP demand or not, given that it's still present as a lore of beasts spell (which **** me off)... but it wouldn't surprise me. Still though, that one might be all CA.

    To a question earlier, what was Vanguard like before?

    Basically you had a lot more deployment area. You know how the deployment zone goes horizontally all the way across? With vanguard, take about 12.5% off of each side of that, maybe 15%. You could basically deploy on the flanks of an enemy - at a distance, but still there. That was the most important change (especially given map design!). Also, the area in front of an army separating the two used to be about half as much. This is honestly more or less how deployment is handled like that in the Warhammer TT games, the vanguard area is quite large. It's very important for certain armies (such as beastmen, greenskins, skaven, and in general low-armor aggressive forces with a lot of infantry). It was literally a death knell to a huge portion of goblin's usefulness.

    One of the reasons Vlad takes the heat for this is a) timing, and b) no one was really complaining about vanguarding goblins or beastmen and skaven didnt exist yet. It was only after Vlad that anything was done to it.

    Vanguard is entirely Campaign because Ghorst's army ability was added at the same time which was Poison for his entire army and is Campaign only since they are both Lord Effects not things tied to the character itself. This is not a thing tied to MP but entirely with Campaign.

    Magic most of the time was quite bad in the first game because CA screwed up the scaling as ALL unit sizes used large unit (or the one before the top) sizes for magic damage so anyone who wasn't on the Unit size that magic was balanced around were reporting of magic is too strong (anything below) or Magic is too weak (anything above) so if anything EVERYONE is responsible for magic being bad.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Registered Users Posts: 1,935
    I'm glad I enjoy both SP and MP, and am not drag down into this nonsense SP dogma. There's a lot of criticism to be leveled at MP but ya'll are so far away from that nail it's amazing.

    This thread got a little sidetracked on MP and for that I feel a tad responsible.

    Humble apologies. I was merely poking fun.

    That said, if dwarfs are still low tier in MP, maybe this would work. It makes sense. Dwarfs are the epitome of a stone wall in the lore. They shouldn't suffer much to arrows from the front. Of course, they are very fat... but who am I to judge?

    Also, if greenskins and vampires (their main SP foes) are trying to win by shooting stunties to death, they are probably doing something wrong.

    their problem isn't that they are low tier, it's that they are boring, reductionist, and are anti-RTS in how CA interpreted them.

    For things to be good in the world, you need some things to be bad, same applies here.

    For "Armor" to really be represented, your opponents need a reason to take non-AP weapons
    For "magic resist" to really be represented, your opponents need a reason to take magic

    Things like faction wide magic resist, or (nearly) faction wide armor, instead of showcasing them as characteristics that are the Dwarfs strengths, stumps the game and makes over 50% of the games roster as well as a large portion of tactics useless.

    Technically they are a middle of the pack faction.


    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,354
    The best way to balance stuff in this game (IMO obviously) is to balance around multiplayer and then balance for SP via technologies, lord skills, buildings, and factions traits. Trying to balance solely for the sake of SP would probably ruin balance both in MP and SP. You could still have OP Star Dragons in SP, but you would have to work towards it and invest resources into making them better, and the MP aspect still wouldn't be broken.

    Take Saurus Warriors for example. In the lore and in TT, they are the best core infantry in the game and the mainstay of the Lizardmen armies, acting as living weapons that carry out the will of the Slann. In MP they are certainly a solid unit for sure, but they struggle against particular targets and are about on par with Chaos Warriors. In SP, with tech research, skills, buildings, etc. I had stack of just Saurus Warriors fighting and beating elite stacks of other races. And, if you play as Kroq-Gar, you can get -103% upkeep for Saurus. With his reduced upkeep trait. There are ways to create a more "loreful" SP experience without completely screwing the balance of MP.
  • BoombastekBoombastek Registered Users Posts: 2,121

    The best way to balance stuff in this game (IMO obviously) is to balance around multiplayer and then balance for SP via technologies, lord skills, buildings, and factions traits. Trying to balance solely for the sake of SP would probably ruin balance both in MP and SP. You could still have OP Star Dragons in SP, but you would have to work towards it and invest resources into making them better, and the MP aspect still wouldn't be broken.

    Take Saurus Warriors for example. In the lore and in TT, they are the best core infantry in the game and the mainstay of the Lizardmen armies, acting as living weapons that carry out the will of the Slann. In MP they are certainly a solid unit for sure, but they struggle against particular targets and are about on par with Chaos Warriors. In SP, with tech research, skills, buildings, etc. I had stack of just Saurus Warriors fighting and beating elite stacks of other races. And, if you play as Kroq-Gar, you can get -103% upkeep for Saurus. With his reduced upkeep trait. There are ways to create a more "loreful" SP experience without completely screwing the balance of MP.

    It all cos AI mostly not stack building that gave rank to recruit units.
    Example LM can produce 7 rank units with any province that had 3 setlement. That kind OP. add to this tech +2 ranks for every unit ez 9 rank recruit.
    Ofc you can beat any AI with saurus. And never forget blessed saurus had AP same as TG and perfect vigor.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,950
    Actually, if Vlad's Vanguarding thing was only SP, then wouldn't that mean...

    SP got Vanguard nerfed for the MP folks? Like, that would be the reverse of what everyone is saying. Singleplayer causes a change that makes Multiplayer less fun!
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