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Do the Greenskins have enough missing content to justify a dlc & flc combo

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  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Registered Users Posts: 4,310

    Itharus said:

    Well, you see... normally... you can equip boyz with spearz. Black Orcs already come with one of everything.

    Wolf Riders and Boar Boyz can have spearz, too. And Goblins can have spearz.

    SPEARZ EVERYWHERE!!!!

    There's even a spear chukka.

    But nope, not in TWWH.

    Spearz were too advanced technologically for greenskins to invent in TWWH, cuz pointy sticks are hard.

    Dude, its called "faction design".

    Greenskins and Dwarves do not have spear units, despite there being the possibilities for both. Its a matter of making the factions more diverse in how they deal with different things. Dwarves have their basic infantry with charge defense against large and greenskins have their meatshield units.

    Spears of goblins? Too small and do you think they know how to properly use them against cavalry and large monsters?
    They do not act in "formations" or in "lines", they scream and yell at the enemy and bash them.

    So even if greenskins HAD proper spears/halberds they wouldnt use them "right".

    They have more mass/goblins for taking charges or boar boyz for countercharges.
    Yea, and GW designed Greenskins with spears as options for a number of units including every unit Itharus mentioned. Practically speaking, there's not just one way to use spears "right"; in fact on TT there was no particular advantage to polearms at all when fighting large entities. The reason you took spears was because they allowed you to make attacks from one additional rank than normal because of the longer reach. Fighters farther back from the action could use their spears to reach past their friends and poke the enemy and that's a perfectly Orc-y thing to do. Now this may not be perfectly represented in TW:WH, but that's certainly not a reason to short the Greenskins on their spear units.
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,245
    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,972

    Itharus said:

    Well, you see... normally... you can equip boyz with spearz. Black Orcs already come with one of everything.

    Wolf Riders and Boar Boyz can have spearz, too. And Goblins can have spearz.

    SPEARZ EVERYWHERE!!!!

    There's even a spear chukka.

    But nope, not in TWWH.

    Spearz were too advanced technologically for greenskins to invent in TWWH, cuz pointy sticks are hard.

    Dude, its called "faction design".

    Greenskins and Dwarves do not have spear units, despite there being the possibilities for both. Its a matter of making the factions more diverse in how they deal with different things. Dwarves have their basic infantry with charge defense against large and greenskins have their meatshield units.

    Spears of goblins? Too small and do you think they know how to properly use them against cavalry and large monsters?
    They do not act in "formations" or in "lines", they scream and yell at the enemy and bash them.

    So even if greenskins HAD proper spears/halberds they wouldnt use them "right".

    They have more mass/goblins for taking charges or boar boyz for countercharges.
    The distinction is that Games Workshop deliberately left spears out of the later Dwarf army books. Greenskins, on the other hand, always had stikkas as an option.The idea that orcs are too undisciplined to use spears and goblins too weedy to get much benefit from them is a CA construct.

    Even if the game rules on the tabletop didn't reflect it back then, orcs clearly knew the benefit of using spears to fight something bigger than them. Or one giant spear that takes two Orcs to use.

    It's become a pretty clear faction weakness that greenskins don't have many options to deal with large opponents - a weakness that is not part of their design brief. Spearorcs offer a simple plug for that gap.

    You could make it so that they don't have the discipline for a proper spearwall if you see fit, and not give orc spears Charge Defence, instead encouraging them to countercharge or something - but I think the faction design argument points to spears being something the greenskins should have.
  • MuemmelmonsterMuemmelmonster Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 87
    There is still plenty of units to introduce. Additionally, they should give the already existing units their abilities properly and there are functions from TT which are still missing that affect all factions, not only greenskins, these could give the player more options how he wants to play.
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,325
    Ol_Nessie said:

    Itharus said:

    Well, you see... normally... you can equip boyz with spearz. Black Orcs already come with one of everything.

    Wolf Riders and Boar Boyz can have spearz, too. And Goblins can have spearz.

    SPEARZ EVERYWHERE!!!!

    There's even a spear chukka.

    But nope, not in TWWH.

    Spearz were too advanced technologically for greenskins to invent in TWWH, cuz pointy sticks are hard.

    Dude, its called "faction design".

    Greenskins and Dwarves do not have spear units, despite there being the possibilities for both. Its a matter of making the factions more diverse in how they deal with different things. Dwarves have their basic infantry with charge defense against large and greenskins have their meatshield units.

    Spears of goblins? Too small and do you think they know how to properly use them against cavalry and large monsters?
    They do not act in "formations" or in "lines", they scream and yell at the enemy and bash them.

    So even if greenskins HAD proper spears/halberds they wouldnt use them "right".

    They have more mass/goblins for taking charges or boar boyz for countercharges.
    Yea, and GW designed Greenskins with spears as options for a number of units including every unit Itharus mentioned. Practically speaking, there's not just one way to use spears "right"; in fact on TT there was no particular advantage to polearms at all when fighting large entities. The reason you took spears was because they allowed you to make attacks from one additional rank than normal because of the longer reach. Fighters farther back from the action could use their spears to reach past their friends and poke the enemy and that's a perfectly Orc-y thing to do. Now this may not be perfectly represented in TW:WH, but that's certainly not a reason to short the Greenskins on their spear units.
    The game developer knows better. DE also don't need manticores because due to "faction design" they are not supposed to have good flying units. Oh, never mind, manticore was already added. Did I mention that he is a game developer and knows better?


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,391

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    I think the other plus for a dlc is it would be much easier to justify a dlc for a fire race if it came with a big flc... surely opportunity for some synergy there
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,916
    edited February 2019
    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.
    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • BlacksphemyBlacksphemy Registered Users Posts: 634
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    I think I agree with your larger point of avoiding sameness between races but, to me, full rosters does not mean that roster weaknesses have to be filled in. For example giving the orcs that big stikka unit where there are two orcs with one spear could give them a viable anti large against single entity units without giving them a great option to take on groups of cavalry. Alternately spear orcs could also be given a longer "range" so that they can attack over or around their frontline, without getting too high of an anti-large bonus. I like when a faction has a pronounced weakness because that gives me more incentive to be creative in my tactics and strategy, but larger rosters should always give you more variety and tools to confront that weakness (in this game at least). I love role playing in this game more than any other TW yet and I love that I can have 4-5 viable builds in most races and stay competitive.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,916
    As long as Ork spearz lose to Yeomen its ok.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,184
    Theo91 said:

    For me, one of the most fun parts to the GS faction is their variety.

    Yes their roster is large but it’s not filled with CA created units or superfluous units and there’s plenty that are missing.

    I can’t understand the logic for not including weapon varieties of different units like borcs with shields or orcs with spears

    Why only one troll variant? Seems crazy to me

    Technically BO should have all the weapons. They are "armed to da teef".

    Also... what really irked me recently... I was playing some Norsca and I was gleefully recruiting Surtha Ek on his chariot, and I saw he had the trait "Stupid" which gave him a 10% charge bonus, and the flavor text mentioned that he had the brains of a RIVER TROLL. Way to tease, CA :-|
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,184
    Amonkhet said:

    As long as Ork spearz lose to Yeomen its ok.

    Ignorance.

    Orc Boyz are quite capable in melee and their spear usage is fine.

    There's a problem in WH 1 races that was resolved in WH2 races and has not yet been backwards ported, sadly.

    That problem is that most of the units in the game vary by loadout, not by skill, in a given army. For instance... An Orc Boy is the base unit. He becomes an Arrer Boy or Spear Boy or whatever based on his loadout. Orcs actually have decent stats, decent leadership, and toughness 4. They're not bad troops at all -- and they are cheaper and come in numbers. Goblins are also not bad, truth be told. The average goblin is (aside from poor leadership) on par with your average human. An orc boy has slightly less skill than the imperial swordsmen (who are state troop specialists, NOT base infantry!) but their toughness evens things out quite nicely.

    Honestly... a lot of folks complaining about various units have never read a damned army book or played the TT and don't actually understand how Warhammer is balanced - at all. You guys are basing it on personal unfounded opinions, and experience with orcs, etc, in other games that are not Warhammer -- or even basing it on other Warhammer video games that were known for departing from the TT rules significantly.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,972

    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    I think I agree with your larger point of avoiding sameness between races but, to me, full rosters does not mean that roster weaknesses have to be filled in. For example giving the orcs that big stikka unit where there are two orcs with one spear could give them a viable anti large against single entity units without giving them a great option to take on groups of cavalry. Alternately spear orcs could also be given a longer "range" so that they can attack over or around their frontline, without getting too high of an anti-large bonus. I like when a faction has a pronounced weakness because that gives me more incentive to be creative in my tactics and strategy, but larger rosters should always give you more variety and tools to confront that weakness (in this game at least). I love role playing in this game more than any other TW yet and I love that I can have 4-5 viable builds in most races and stay competitive.
    Each of the factions does have weaknesses that have been ported over from their tabletop lists, though

    Greenskins, for instance, while generally a fairly balanced faction, have a number of built-in weaknesses from their tabletop list. They have almost no flying, and their ranged options, while present, are mostly pretty basic.

    Being bad at dealing with cavalry and monsters is not a weakness that comes out of their tabletop list. In tabletop balance, for instance, Black Orcs using great weapons have Strength 6, which goes to Strength 7 in the first round of combat: that's plenty enough for punching through a knight's armour save or the Toughness of most monsters. In the TWW balance context, spears are what you want for anti-large, but the orcs have both regular spear units and the Big Stabbas which were specifically made for hunting large monsters. Lack of anti-large options should not be a greenskin weakness.
    Itharus said:

    Amonkhet said:

    As long as Ork spearz lose to Yeomen its ok.

    Ignorance.

    Orc Boyz are quite capable in melee and their spear usage is fine.

    There's a problem in WH 1 races that was resolved in WH2 races and has not yet been backwards ported, sadly.

    That problem is that most of the units in the game vary by loadout, not by skill, in a given army. For instance... An Orc Boy is the base unit. He becomes an Arrer Boy or Spear Boy or whatever based on his loadout. Orcs actually have decent stats, decent leadership, and toughness 4. They're not bad troops at all -- and they are cheaper and come in numbers. Goblins are also not bad, truth be told. The average goblin is (aside from poor leadership) on par with your average human. An orc boy has slightly less skill than the imperial swordsmen (who are state troop specialists, NOT base infantry!) but their toughness evens things out quite nicely.
    Well... goblins are more on par with Bretonnian peasant levies and Skinks. The average human soldier beats the average goblin, but the lower stats of Bretonnian infantry bring them down to goblin levels.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,184
    Are you counting the militias or the state troops as average? The state troops are quite nice.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,972
    State troops ARE average - Bretonnian men-at-arms are below average.

    Empire Militias have the same statistics as State Troops (Swordsmen excepted, since they're a cut above). All examples of human soldiers outside of Bretonnia bottom out at the same statline (M4, W1, A1, Ld7, and everything else 3): human DoW bottom out at that statline, as do Kislev troops.

    State Troops are known for their discipline, but on the tabletop that was reflected through the detachments rule and through Empire characters being able to give units the equivalent of Cold Blooded, not through the State Troops being anything exceptional individually. It's Bretonnian infantry that's especially bad, not Empire infantry that's especially good.
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,325
    Itharus said:

    Theo91 said:

    For me, one of the most fun parts to the GS faction is their variety.

    Yes their roster is large but it’s not filled with CA created units or superfluous units and there’s plenty that are missing.

    I can’t understand the logic for not including weapon varieties of different units like borcs with shields or orcs with spears

    Why only one troll variant? Seems crazy to me

    Technically BO should have all the weapons. They are "armed to da teef".

    What do you think would be better: adding more variants of BO (Shield, Dual Wield) or give BO unit an ability to switch on the fly (like Elven Bolt Throwers can change ammo)?


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,545
    edited February 2019

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    Not to mention the various weapon varieties or mounts for current standing units e.g. spears/shields for standard orcs or gigantic spider mounts for goblin war bosses (finally making them tanky and a proper threat upon the battlefield)...
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    This a moot warning...if they have the units and weapon usages within the army book...

    They must have said aspects within the warhammer games...otherwise...a pathetically horrible interpretation of the faction established by CA will be ever present...always labelled as such...

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 32,288
    edited February 2019
    Enforest said:

    Itharus said:

    Theo91 said:

    For me, one of the most fun parts to the GS faction is their variety.

    Yes their roster is large but it’s not filled with CA created units or superfluous units and there’s plenty that are missing.

    I can’t understand the logic for not including weapon varieties of different units like borcs with shields or orcs with spears

    Why only one troll variant? Seems crazy to me

    Technically BO should have all the weapons. They are "armed to da teef".

    What do you think would be better: adding more variants of BO (Shield, Dual Wield) or give BO unit an ability to switch on the fly (like Elven Bolt Throwers can change ammo)?
    Switch on the fly would be ideal. It'd do a lot to make Borcs feel special and give Orcs a real top tier melee unit.

    Adding variants would be fine but would feel lackluster in comparison. It'd just be giving them what most races have rather than giving them something special.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

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  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Registered Users Posts: 4,310
    Enforest said:

    Itharus said:

    Theo91 said:

    For me, one of the most fun parts to the GS faction is their variety.

    Yes their roster is large but it’s not filled with CA created units or superfluous units and there’s plenty that are missing.

    I can’t understand the logic for not including weapon varieties of different units like borcs with shields or orcs with spears

    Why only one troll variant? Seems crazy to me

    Technically BO should have all the weapons. They are "armed to da teef".

    What do you think would be better: adding more variants of BO (Shield, Dual Wield) or give BO unit an ability to switch on the fly (like Elven Bolt Throwers can change ammo)?
    Give them the ability. Several variants would not be a faithful adaptation of the source material. "Armed to da Teef" was something of a signature that made Black Orcs special. Before we got Giant Slayers, the same ability would have been appropriate for Slayers as well. Still could be, but more would have to be done to distinguish the two variants we have now.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Pretty unlikely to happen because the engine cannot handle this sort of model swap. That's why Spirit Essence of Chaos, which is supposed to transform one unit into another, just kills one unit and summons another in its place and other spells that should have transformative effects, like Transformation of Kadon and The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell just summon units. Ammo swaps do not require replacing a unit model, so they are not the same.
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,325

    Pretty unlikely to happen because the engine cannot handle this sort of model swap. That's why Spirit Essence of Chaos, which is supposed to transform one unit into another, just kills one unit and summons another in its place and other spells that should have transformative effects, like Transformation of Kadon and The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell just summon units. Ammo swaps do not require replacing a unit model, so they are not the same.

    It's not model swap, it's animation and equipment swap, like what archers do when they engaged in melee. With a little bit of work from CA, weapon switching should be possible without any problems.


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Enforest said:

    Pretty unlikely to happen because the engine cannot handle this sort of model swap. That's why Spirit Essence of Chaos, which is supposed to transform one unit into another, just kills one unit and summons another in its place and other spells that should have transformative effects, like Transformation of Kadon and The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell just summon units. Ammo swaps do not require replacing a unit model, so they are not the same.

    It's not model swap, it's animation and equipment swap, like what archers do when they engaged in melee. With a little bit of work from CA, weapon switching should be possible without any problems.
    The engine treats it as a different model, that's the problem. That's also why lords and heroes only always have the same weapon and armor, the engine doesn't allow the hot-swapping of model parts.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,301

    Enforest said:

    Pretty unlikely to happen because the engine cannot handle this sort of model swap. That's why Spirit Essence of Chaos, which is supposed to transform one unit into another, just kills one unit and summons another in its place and other spells that should have transformative effects, like Transformation of Kadon and The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell just summon units. Ammo swaps do not require replacing a unit model, so they are not the same.

    It's not model swap, it's animation and equipment swap, like what archers do when they engaged in melee. With a little bit of work from CA, weapon switching should be possible without any problems.
    The engine treats it as a different model, that's the problem. That's also why lords and heroes only always have the same weapon and armor, the engine doesn't allow the hot-swapping of model parts.
    But didn't @Enforest mention this exact behaviour for archers? They swap weapons and change their animation set in the process. I'm sure that can be repurposed.
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,325
    I honestly think they just didn't bother with it. We have all the foundation neccesary (units can swap weapons in melee, BO have all the compatible skeletons), it just needs to be expanded to 3 animation sets instead of 2 (actually 1 in case of archers) and a way to switch between them on command. Surely not possible with current build, but shouldn't be that much of a problem to implement.


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,916
    Avadon said:

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    Not to mention the various weapon varieties or mounts for current standing units e.g. spears/shields for standard orcs or gigantic spider mounts for goblin war bosses (finally making them tanky and a proper threat upon the battlefield)...
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    This a moot warning...if they have the units and weapon usages within the army book...

    They must have said aspects within the warhammer games...otherwise...a pathetically horrible interpretation of the faction established by CA will be ever present...always labelled as such...
    You also have to remember this is a game and that inter-faction balance is important. Like, Greenskins/Empire probably have the most units out of all the factions and if they get all, how are some factions going to compete against that?
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited February 2019

    Enforest said:

    Pretty unlikely to happen because the engine cannot handle this sort of model swap. That's why Spirit Essence of Chaos, which is supposed to transform one unit into another, just kills one unit and summons another in its place and other spells that should have transformative effects, like Transformation of Kadon and The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell just summon units. Ammo swaps do not require replacing a unit model, so they are not the same.

    It's not model swap, it's animation and equipment swap, like what archers do when they engaged in melee. With a little bit of work from CA, weapon switching should be possible without any problems.
    The engine treats it as a different model, that's the problem. That's also why lords and heroes only always have the same weapon and armor, the engine doesn't allow the hot-swapping of model parts.
    But didn't @Enforest mention this exact behaviour for archers? They swap weapons and change their animation set in the process. I'm sure that can be repurposed.
    In TW all ranged units break out hand weapons when they are engaged in close combat, that's not specific to archers.

    Also, their stats don't change no matter what weapon they have in hand. If Black Orks were to have different characteristics depending on what weapon they are holding, the engine would count them as two different units since every unit can only have one ranged and one melee weapon.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,391
    Amonkhet said:

    Avadon said:

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    Not to mention the various weapon varieties or mounts for current standing units e.g. spears/shields for standard orcs or gigantic spider mounts for goblin war bosses (finally making them tanky and a proper threat upon the battlefield)...
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    This a moot warning...if they have the units and weapon usages within the army book...

    They must have said aspects within the warhammer games...otherwise...a pathetically horrible interpretation of the faction established by CA will be ever present...always labelled as such...
    You also have to remember this is a game and that inter-faction balance is important. Like, Greenskins/Empire probably have the most units out of all the factions and if they get all, how are some factions going to compete against that?
    Disagree I’m afraid. Unit variety doesn’t equal lack of balance. As long as there is a trade off through price you can balance an army properly

    Too many anti large options and you’ll expose yourself to heavy infantry. Too many great weapons and you’re exposed to missiles etc
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,972
    Amonkhet said:

    Avadon said:

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    Not to mention the various weapon varieties or mounts for current standing units e.g. spears/shields for standard orcs or gigantic spider mounts for goblin war bosses (finally making them tanky and a proper threat upon the battlefield)...
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    This a moot warning...if they have the units and weapon usages within the army book...

    They must have said aspects within the warhammer games...otherwise...a pathetically horrible interpretation of the faction established by CA will be ever present...always labelled as such...
    You also have to remember this is a game and that inter-faction balance is important. Like, Greenskins/Empire probably have the most units out of all the factions and if they get all, how are some factions going to compete against that?
    The O&G list on the TT probably was the biggest list after Chaos got split, but is has a lot of units that are relatively minor variations of one another and fulfill much the same role.

    Inter-faction balance isn't about the number of units, it's about the overall capabilities across those units. Giving greenskins the troll variants, for instance, probably isn't going to break anything: it'll give them a slightly better monstrous infantry game, but that's something they already have (and, frankly, should be better than it currently is). Because of the redundancy in the list, having a varied list doesn't stop the greenskins from having a LOT of gaps and weaknesses, some which translate over from the tabletop (lack of flying, relatively weak archery, low leadership as substitute for Animosity) and some of which are there purely because of unimplemented units (the aforementioned lack of anti-large, lack of a real melee-oriented hero, possibly more I haven't thought of).

    Meanwhile, there are races that have relatively short unit lists that are high-tier because the units they do have span a wide range of capabilities and are generally good at what they do.

    Similar observations could be made for the Empire. At this stage, the humble Huntsmen might actually be the most impactful addition to their list because infantry scouts are something that the Empire doesn't have right now.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,916
    Theo91 said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Avadon said:

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    Not to mention the various weapon varieties or mounts for current standing units e.g. spears/shields for standard orcs or gigantic spider mounts for goblin war bosses (finally making them tanky and a proper threat upon the battlefield)...
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    This a moot warning...if they have the units and weapon usages within the army book...

    They must have said aspects within the warhammer games...otherwise...a pathetically horrible interpretation of the faction established by CA will be ever present...always labelled as such...
    You also have to remember this is a game and that inter-faction balance is important. Like, Greenskins/Empire probably have the most units out of all the factions and if they get all, how are some factions going to compete against that?
    Disagree I’m afraid. Unit variety doesn’t equal lack of balance. As long as there is a trade off through price you can balance an army properly

    Too many anti large options and you’ll expose yourself to heavy infantry. Too many great weapons and you’re exposed to missiles etc
    How would Bretonnia cope against greenskins with decent spear units?
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,972
    Amonkhet said:

    Theo91 said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Avadon said:

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    Not to mention the various weapon varieties or mounts for current standing units e.g. spears/shields for standard orcs or gigantic spider mounts for goblin war bosses (finally making them tanky and a proper threat upon the battlefield)...
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    This a moot warning...if they have the units and weapon usages within the army book...

    They must have said aspects within the warhammer games...otherwise...a pathetically horrible interpretation of the faction established by CA will be ever present...always labelled as such...
    You also have to remember this is a game and that inter-faction balance is important. Like, Greenskins/Empire probably have the most units out of all the factions and if they get all, how are some factions going to compete against that?
    Disagree I’m afraid. Unit variety doesn’t equal lack of balance. As long as there is a trade off through price you can balance an army properly

    Too many anti large options and you’ll expose yourself to heavy infantry. Too many great weapons and you’re exposed to missiles etc
    How would Bretonnia cope against greenskins with decent spear units?
    How does Bretonnia cope against any race with decent anti-cavalry options?
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,448
    Amonkhet said:

    Theo91 said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Avadon said:

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    Not to mention the various weapon varieties or mounts for current standing units e.g. spears/shields for standard orcs or gigantic spider mounts for goblin war bosses (finally making them tanky and a proper threat upon the battlefield)...
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    This a moot warning...if they have the units and weapon usages within the army book...

    They must have said aspects within the warhammer games...otherwise...a pathetically horrible interpretation of the faction established by CA will be ever present...always labelled as such...
    You also have to remember this is a game and that inter-faction balance is important. Like, Greenskins/Empire probably have the most units out of all the factions and if they get all, how are some factions going to compete against that?
    Disagree I’m afraid. Unit variety doesn’t equal lack of balance. As long as there is a trade off through price you can balance an army properly

    Too many anti large options and you’ll expose yourself to heavy infantry. Too many great weapons and you’re exposed to missiles etc
    How would Bretonnia cope against greenskins with decent spear units?
    Squires. They have been added for this exact reason.
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