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Please make giant slayers a test case for charge knockdown retribution damage

eumaieseumaies Senior MemberPosts: 3,090Registered Users
edited February 12 in Balancing Discussions
Hey CA,

There’s an understandable need in this game and in upcoming warhammer 3 to make big exciting single entity units that visually bowl over infantry in a satisfying way. That’s great marketing and fun.

I also understand that you want certain anti large infantry to be useful counters to big monsters with fast speeds and charge animations. I assume this because a) you introduced units like giant slayers that have that concept in their name and stats (80 attack vs large!) and b) these units actually do this really well in a casual setting where somebody occasionally forgets to move their khemrian warsphinx for 10 seconds.

But in competitive multiplayer, cycle charging with these fast monstrous units is a hard counter to the elite anti large infantry they’re supposed to be worried about. This is a balancing challenge for you - you seem to want these infantry to perform their role, but right now they can only do that if their opponent screws up.

Warhammer three is coming with ogre kingdoms and demon lords and all kinds of awesome animations to enjoy.

But that means you should look for a solution to this multiplayer balancing problem now. Anti large infantry shouldn’t be an afterthought in a total war game. And you don’t want to have to make them absurdly strong vs relatively low mass cavalry and slow large targets just to give them a chance versus huge fast targets. That would be a balancing conundrum.

Please test a retribution mechanic for the giant slayers in wh 2 so that they can fulfill the purpose you put them in the game for.

Retribution would be an ability that causes an attack or damage from the anti large specialist infantry on an entity that charges into them and bowls them over. It wouldn’t make the unit stronger except in cases where you’re trying to counter them with the exact units they’re supposed to counter. It also wouldn’t augment ranged units because it doesnt slow or snare the large entity.

Now even so this could be a strong ability and maybe not something lots of units should have. I think giant slayers are the perfect test case to see how this works in practice. These guys are super expensive, super weak to archers and cheap enemy infantry, very killable. You designed them to be a glass cannon taken specifically to counter big monsters but they don’t yet do that to the monsters and single entities that matter. You gave them massive attack bonuses and good speed specifically to make them good in this role, and it’s simply a quirk of game design that they aren’t cutting it yet in competitive play.

Please try it out. It’s one unit. It’s a perfect test case for an ability that would help with a lot of balancing problems that are increasingly going to come up in wh multiplayer. This ability would affect the end game (when just the giant slayers and big monsters are left) but would leave them largely unchanged during most of the battle when they can largely be avoided. But changing that end game will make a big difference in how this game plays, because people play competitively with the end in mind.

Or if I’m wrong just let us know that it’s your intentional design choice that elite anti large infantry should counter cavalry and slow monsters but be countered by fast single entities with animations. Then I could just throw up my hands and let it go!

Thanks!


Edit: clarifying that per our discussion below this ability would only work when giant slayers are charged from the front, not the side or rear.
Post edited by eumaies on
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Comments

  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 835Registered Users
    I like this idea. Changing the charge defence mechanic into a "charge reflection" mechanic (like it is in earlier TW games and 3K) would be a good way to go I think.

    Although the defending unit would still have to be facing the charge and stationary, so maybe it should be expanded for some of the more aggressive anti large infantry units (e.g giant slayers and asrai spears) to not require both forward facing and stationary, while the defensive ones (e.g. phoenix guard) need to be stationary and facing forward.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,090Registered Users
    I agree limiting it to facing forward would be totally reasonable.

    And tbd how many units should get it but that’s why it would be great to test it out.
  • ystyst Posts: 4,747Registered Users
    For sure, got nothing to lose, giant slayers pretty much a non pick unit.

    Also, any1 knows how ror phoenix guard works? they turn into flames when they die, doesnt that reflect 1 att or something, as far as i know they r the unit in game with reflecting abilities
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  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 835Registered Users
    yst said:

    For sure, got nothing to lose, giant slayers pretty much a non pick unit.

    Also, any1 knows how ror phoenix guard works? they turn into flames when they die, doesnt that reflect 1 att or something, as far as i know they r the unit in game with reflecting abilities

    slayers have the same ability, in fact I think the ROR PG ability was based off slayers.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,090Registered Users
    yst said:

    For sure, got nothing to lose, giant slayers pretty much a non pick unit.

    Also, any1 knows how ror phoenix guard works? they turn into flames when they die, doesnt that reflect 1 att or something, as far as i know they r the unit in game with reflecting abilities

    Well there’s also bloated corpses ;)
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,090Registered Users
    Louis_1 said:

    yst said:

    For sure, got nothing to lose, giant slayers pretty much a non pick unit.

    Also, any1 knows how ror phoenix guard works? they turn into flames when they die, doesnt that reflect 1 att or something, as far as i know they r the unit in game with reflecting abilities

    slayers have the same ability, in fact I think the ROR PG ability was based off slayers.
    Yeah though I bet it doesn’t work if you’re knocked back away from your enemy.
  • ystyst Posts: 4,747Registered Users
    edited February 8
    I see them having a last swing when they died, cant really tell, looks like nothing happened lol. Or did they miss? bad animation? coz its super slow, uve a headless slayer still trying to swing his axe, and enemy are already not on base contact. Theres literally no way to tell whether its working or not. Or just a fun animation

    I think we need to summon the gods for this

    @CA_Duck If uve time, care to elaborate on how slayers death-swing works? can enemy just walk away and nothing happens?
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,090Registered Users
    yst said:

    I see them having a last swing when they died, cant really tell, looks like nothing happened lol. Or did they miss? bad animation? coz its super slow, uve a headless slayer still trying to swing his axe, and enemy are already not on base contact. Theres literally no way to tell whether its working or not. Or just a fun animation

    I think we need to summon the gods for this

    @CA_Duck If uve time, care to elaborate on how slayers death-swing works? can enemy just walk away and nothing happens?

    Funny you should ask.

    There’s a good example of it at about 11:00 in this cast:



    Slayer gets his head chopped off, makes a final attack, and presumably because an enemy was adjacent to him he managed to get one last kill.
  • ystyst Posts: 4,747Registered Users
    OMG finallly get to see how that works in real time. Holysht its hilarious lol, wrong time wrong place.
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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,299Registered Users
    i disagree to make cav even redundant becasue monsters.

    MOnsters should be treated just like wh40k 8ed treats vehicles. 2 HP tresholds 50% and 25% Hp both will lower stats of said monster. ( This should come with other ebalancing factors and is not really meant for game 2).
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,090Registered Users

    i disagree to make cav even redundant becasue monsters.

    MOnsters should be treated just like wh40k 8ed treats vehicles. 2 HP tresholds 50% and 25% Hp both will lower stats of said monster. ( This should come with other ebalancing factors and is not really meant for game 2).

    I like that too but it doesn't really address the complete ineffectiveness of anti-large infantry vs cycle charging of large monsters.

    Another way to think about this for WH3 is that if they fix that, then these infantry don't need to be made as strong, which will help cavalry. Right now they made giant slayers have insane stats which are really powerful vs heavy cav, and I think they did that because it's the only way they would have any chance of hitting and chipping away at a fast large target before it pulls away.

    Once you fix that the infantry stats don't need to be so high for them to play their normal role.

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 16,946Registered Users
    edited February 8
    I think all elite anti-large units should have this. I'm tired of infantry being nothing but a empty can to be kicked around by large monsters and even light cavalry.

    Also, no facing requirements. That only means monsters can still do their silly dodging dances around such units.
    Post edited by Ephraim_Dalton on

  • ystyst Posts: 4,747Registered Users
    Charge def needs to change, i think they know about this already. Its a very bad design since the beginning, needs to be completely stationary for it to works. Sure hope they do somehting about it asap, aint got time to wait till 2021 for them to do something for war3
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  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Posts: 2,561Registered Users
    Well if there's improvements, waiting for TWW3 is really the only choice.

    The entire system is dumb. Reflecting damage is likely what needs to happen but Rome 2 has proven that if that is poorly implemented it gets real dumb real fast.

    I'm hoping for a sort of (Mass + speed = reflected damage taken) sort of mechanic for spears/halberds, but there's a lot of charge defense units like treemen or ironbreakers where this wouldn't make any sense.
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,090Registered Users
    Kayosiv said:

    Well if there's improvements, waiting for TWW3 is really the only choice.

    The entire system is dumb. Reflecting damage is likely what needs to happen but Rome 2 has proven that if that is poorly implemented it gets real dumb real fast.

    I'm hoping for a sort of (Mass + speed = reflected damage taken) sort of mechanic for spears/halberds, but there's a lot of charge defense units like treemen or ironbreakers where this wouldn't make any sense.

    It could be a function of getting knocked over.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Posts: 1,755Registered Users
    edited February 9
    WH3 will be the make or break moment for TW:WH mp. If this game will be able to survive with out the carrot on the stick of future content patches and DLC, it will be known when WH3 comes out.

    needless to say, I strongly agree with reflection damage.
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  • RethmarRethmar Posts: 44Registered Users
    Monster need to get more mass and more attack animations that break up enemy formations.
  • ystyst Posts: 4,747Registered Users
    Rethmar said:

    Monster need to get more mass and more attack animations that break up enemy formations.

    Yea and theres always that argument. Monsters need to feel and work like monsters. I mean for something like a shag or dragon to get trapped by peasants or slaves is very lacklustre to say the least.

    U want them to be extremely useful but not being able to cycle charge abuse. I mean theres truckload of abuse right now in game, dodge abuse, charge abuse, heaps of it. But really ppl play warhammer for magic and monsters, wtf else would u go fantasy if thats not it. U want stupid inf, archer, cav fight, plenty of historic titles for it.



    There should be some sort of "impact" associated with monster charge, u want one super powerful charge and then something like impact debuff on the monster, like 15s of -35% speed to begin with, so basically u want them to fight the entire duration of the charge before being able to charge abuse again. Which technically gives u unlimited charge bonus since u charge, pull, charge. With this in place u get full charge bonus the default 15s, disengage, then goes back again. Doesnt break the "cycle" charge intended for charging units, but minus the extremely broken and cancerous charge abuse.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 16,946Registered Users
    Rethmar said:

    Monster need to get more mass and more attack animations that break up enemy formations.

    LoL, they already bully infantry as much as they want.

    Monsters need nerfing.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 2,400Registered Users
    I disagree with not having to brace, that really should be a requirement. It wouldn't hurt if bracing happened faster, but it can't be removed as requirement IMO.

    Then as to reflecting damage, that could be interesting, but I do think that if that happens, then braced should not nullify the charge bonus as it does now. Then it would hurt both units and be a more bloody version if what we have now. It would still impact balance, but less so...

    I am also a bit careful with the knockback immunity that gets thrown around. Sure the dwarves suffer a lot here, but all other factions have units with mass that fills a role in their rosters for that exact reason. Most clear example is probably treekin. So dawi could get some special unit with this treat, or even active ability on a unit doing this, but as a general change for (elite) antilarge I am not convinced this is a good idea. It affects balance (especially for factions relying on cav and se as main damage dealers), and also the rewarding feeling of a powerful charge with a powerful monster into infantry. It would change how the game feels and plays... So a small test case as suggested here could be fine (though carefully consider how this affects faction balance for dwarves).

    I would really like ca to consider alternative solutions too. Reduce the time from knockdown until the model is back in the fight, have a look at the pathing of models in the same unit not knocked over, consider lowering armor when hit from side or rear, maybe increase the md penalty (make pulling out hurt more). All these could work as softer solutions having less extreme effect on balance.
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 462Registered Users
    yst said:



    There should be some sort of "impact" associated with monster charge, u want one super powerful charge and then something like impact debuff on the monster, like 15s of -35% speed to begin with, so basically u want them to fight the entire duration of the charge before being able to charge abuse again. Which technically gives u unlimited charge bonus since u charge, pull, charge. With this in place u get full charge bonus the default 15s, disengage, then goes back again. Doesnt break the "cycle" charge intended for charging units, but minus the extremely broken and cancerous charge abuse.

    I think slightly 'sticky' charging like this is a step in the right direction, as well as tweaks to knockback distance and timing as suggested by @Disposable Hero.

    With the speed and acceleration of units in this game, braced charge reflect from the front would still be pretty useless endgame, and even for guarding the flanks, and a good 360 reflect is so powetful it could only be given to the elite of the elite,and won't help non-AL infantry from cycle charge abuse. For 360 charge defence/reflection best bring square formation back.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 6,325Registered Users
    edited February 9
    To brace takes a second. It is an instinct when something comes smashing your way.

    That elite defensive troops cant do it is nonsense.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • ystyst Posts: 4,747Registered Users
    ^ ya lol in this game those foolish soldiers need to wait for the other 89 dudes to brace before he himself gets brace bonus.

    Its a horrible mechanic and CA actually knows about this but dunno how to proceed after
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  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 959Registered Users

    To brace takes a second. It is an instinct when something comes smashing your way.

    That elite defensive troops cant do it is nonsense.

    Do you tried it before ( I mean form defence formation and face charge of tons of muscle and steel ) ? It's not THAT easy - even hardy fighters cant do that effortlessly.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Posts: 680Registered Users

    To brace takes a second. It is an instinct when something comes smashing your way.

    That elite defensive troops cant do it is nonsense.

    Do you tried it before ( I mean form defence formation and face charge of tons of muscle and steel ) ? It's not THAT easy - even hardy fighters cant do that effortlessly.
    Also horses can't turm or brake like formula 1 and yet here we are.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,299Registered Users
    if elite halberds should reflect the charge, tehy should have abysmal statline to cinpensate that so even foot squiers could take them down or you will end up with a unit that can do all with no effort or micro and it's bad way to balance imo.
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 462Registered Users

    To brace takes a second. It is an instinct when something comes smashing your way.

    That elite defensive troops cant do it is nonsense.

    Do you tried it before ( I mean form defence formation and face charge of tons of muscle and steel ) ? It's not THAT easy - even hardy fighters cant do that effortlessly.
    Also horses can't turm or brake like formula 1 and yet here we are.
    Yeah, cav/SE manouverability needs to be curbed in a bit for front facing abilities to work well.

    if elite halberds should reflect the charge, tehy should have abysmal statline to cinpensate that so even foot squiers could take them down or you will end up with a unit that can do all with no effort or micro and it's bad way to balance imo.

    I kind of agree, especially as it has tk be balanced for both monsters and cav - there's a danger of it being a big nerf for cav and a minor penalty for monsters.

    I definitely back changes to 'stickyness' of engagements and a rework of the knockdown and cav turning mechanics to make cycling slower, so that infantry will get a chance to strike back before the cav is able to disengage. That way the stats of the infantry actually get used.
  • turrehundturrehund Posts: 87Registered Users
    My suggestion is that when units with CDvL get charged, they should get their anti-large bonus doubled for the same duration as Charge Bonus. This would mean that charging into a spearwall is suicide, while avoiding Longbeards becominh some weird anti-large option (which would be the case with a simple charge reflection).
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,090Registered Users

    if elite halberds should reflect the charge, tehy should have abysmal statline to cinpensate that so even foot squiers could take them down or you will end up with a unit that can do all with no effort or micro and it's bad way to balance imo.

    I don’t understand what you think would happen. Do cavalry models need to be able to successfully charge elite halbards head on from the front even?Large monsters could still hit them from the flank. This is basically just the least you could do for infantry, giving them some competitiveness in an end game or 1v1 situation.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,267Registered Users
    edited February 9
    do we even play the same game? Disengaging while taking 0 or close to 0 damage is already something you can do only with Chariots and extremely high mass/small hitbox single entities (Star Dragon, old Terrorgheist). Other than than, no matter how u click spam, single models of cavalry normally get stuck to enemy models for a while after a charge and I’m talking about the models that are on the edge of the enemy formation, some cavalry models actually charge deep inside the enemy formation in which case it’s certain death after you issue the pull out order. You can actually check this e.g. with a Wizard on horseback, try to make him flee from a faster unit (say light cavalry), after the light cavalry hits their charge animation the Wizard FULLY STOPS from fleeing and for 4-5s no matter how much you click spam he will refuse to move because stickiness to the enemy unit prevails. Something similar happens to cavalry models charging infantry (although trampling negates this effect, but not 100% of models get trampled).

    Abusive cycle charging is only abusive late-game, which brings us to the next question: did you perhaps misplay your anti-large tools and ran out of answers to large so it’s you misplaying and not cavalry and single entities being abusive? Because a blob of something like 70+ Black Guard late-game is pretty tough for anyone to crack even by cycle charging. In fact, say someone brings an army like what Lotus plays, which would be pretty much the worst you can get in terms of abusive cycle charging. If you expect that, you can go mass black guard + some anti-skirmishing tools (artillery, archers) and even by cycle charging a full cav army can’t beat a full halberd one.

    I agree with Disposable Hero that some factions like Dwarfs are a bit lacking in high-mass units to pin stuff in place, but if you misplay your, say, 350g Spider Riders into an Empire Knight early game, it’s only your fault for getting abused by a Gryphon late game.
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