Loremaster of Sotek Discussing the Upcoming Lizardmen DLC (and FLC)

Cortes31#6909

PART 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQYV5r-pQa8

PART 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr63YLes2GE

Video about FLC is further down below

WhySoSalty#3990

it would be actually great if you could write down what you want to discuss.... watching a 2 hrs video just to know whats the point of your discussion is...well ... unecessary

steam_165171714789pPAEKOH

CA should abolish or completely rework Rampage. It is the worst mechanic in the game bar none and it is a complete insult to the Lizardmen.

Any game mechanic that removes a players control is a Game Design 101 failure. The entire point of playing a strategy game is that you are in control of the game pieces. Would anyone play chess where they don't control the pawns? Would they play StarCraft where they only control the builders and the hero units? It is simply not fun to have no control of your units in an RTS. Yet somehow it is considered okay for the Lizardmen to suffer a loss of control of their mainline infantry? What other faction considering controlling 50-75% of their army as an okay thing?

I'm sure CA thinks their "mechanic" is an interesting one and doesn't want to abandon it, but they need to step back and look at this with an objective eye. Loss of player control is always a bad game mechanic. It is not fun for the player.

There are plenty of ways to implement a primal instincts mechanic that is more true to the Lizardmen's table top rules. Even a chase mechanic would be better because that is flagged off of winning combat instead of losing combat causing a loss of control.

By having damage taken being the method of causing rampage it puts the loss of a player's control of their units in the hand of their opponent. It means their opponent decides when their units are out of their control instead of the player. This only compounds how frustrating and terrible this mechanic works.

With the removal of rampage the lizardmen would have a new avenue of tactics and playstyles open to them that have been denied them. They are a very one dimensional faction because rampage forces them to only utilize a few tactics that are not suicidal.

Allow Lizardmen to be the Lizardmen of table top instead of this one dimensional cursed faction.

SiWI#8629

Reghis said:

it would be actually great if you could write down what you want to discuss.... watching a 2 hrs video just to know whats the point of your discussion is...well ... unecessary

the videos have comment from Sotek giving timestamps to the topics.

Michael4537

Ooh, pat 2 is out! Watched the first one yesterday. I'll have to watch the second tonight.

steam_165171714789pPAEKOH

CA needs to remove or complete rework rampage. It is a Game Design 101 No-No that should never be part of any RTS. The entire point of strategy games is that the player is in control of their game pieces. Could anyone image playing chess where they don't control the pawns as being fun? Or playing StarCraft as only the builder units and heroes? It is simply never fun to play a game where you do not control your own units. This is an insult to the Lizardmen as a faction and it is painful for those who enjoy this faction.

There are plenty of ways to use the more traditional Primal Instincts of the table top for the Lizardmen. Even a chase mechanic would be better in that it would be flagged off a routing enemy and winning combat. As rampage works now it is flagged off taking damage. That means that it is your opponent who is in control of when you lose control of your own units instead of your own actions. This is normally a spell or ability that your opponent would use to take away control of your units, such as a net or curse, but the LM get this curse built into their own units for their enemy to use against them.

The Lizardmen are a very one dimensional faction precisely because Rampage cuts their options down to only a few strategies. They are a faction that can only rely on 30-50% of their army to always be in their own control. This is a horrible limitation. If they had full control of their roster, the way every other faction works and should work, then there would be different strategies that would open up for them. That alone would make them a far more fun and interesting faction to play as.

Stop punishing the Lizardmen with rampage as if they are some left over garbage faction that doesn't deserve actual consideration.

TheShiroOfDalton

endikux said:

CA needs to remove or complete rework rampage. It is a Game Design 101 No-No that should never be part of any RTS. The entire point of strategy games is that the player is in control of their game pieces. Could anyone image playing chess where they don't control the pawns as being fun? Or playing StarCraft as only the builder units and heroes? It is simply never fun to play a game where you do not control your own units. This is an insult to the Lizardmen as a faction and it is painful for those who enjoy this faction.

There are plenty of ways to use the more traditional Primal Instincts of the table top for the Lizardmen. Even a chase mechanic would be better in that it would be flagged off a routing enemy and winning combat. As rampage works now it is flagged off taking damage. That means that it is your opponent who is in control of when you lose control of your own units instead of your own actions. This is normally a spell or ability that your opponent would use to take away control of your units, such as a net or curse, but the LM get this curse built into their own units for their enemy to use against them.

The Lizardmen are a very one dimensional faction precisely because Rampage cuts their options down to only a few strategies. They are a faction that can only rely on 30-50% of their army to always be in their own control. This is a horrible limitation. If they had full control of their roster, the way every other faction works and should work, then there would be different strategies that would open up for them. That alone would make them a far more fun and interesting faction to play as.

Stop punishing the Lizardmen with rampage as if they are some left over garbage faction that doesn't deserve actual consideration.

Sorry, but that's a TW staple. Elephants, berserkers and certain units having the impetuous trait could do stuff without your orders in other titles. Comparing it to Chess is moot. In Chess you move one piece at a time one turn at a time.

So acting like this is new is wrong.

I also don't find it all that much of a downside to the Lizardmen.

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Dracklor#9977

Tommorrow he will post A video on the possible FLC lords.

TheShiroOfDalton

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

Dracklor#9977

Ephraim_Dalton said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

The thing is Saurus are not mindless monsters, they are robots with one of the best army coordination ever seen, there is multiple instances of this, there was whole threads about this, Saurus are aggressive, but they are focused and are extremely effective at it.

pdc4930#3270

I thought his video is extremely thought out and I think the DLC will be close to his predictions.

I believe that some units he mentioned may be ROR like the Revered ones, the Ancient Kroxigors, and the Dread Saurian (a giant version of the feral Carnosaur with armor and extra abilities.)

SiWI#8629

Kranox said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

The thing is Saurus are not mindless monsters, they are robots with one of the best army coordination ever seen, there is multiple instances of this, there was whole threads about this, Saurus are aggressive, but they are focused and are extremely effective at it.

when greatly lead yeah but that isn't always the case and sometimes things go down to the "wire".

Seriously.
I found rampage completely manageable.
Its only a problem for the cavalry, but for infantry?
Oh whats that? my front line infantry already in the fight will not stop fighting?
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

There is also nothing wrong with a race challenging the status quo in terms of management.

Dracklor#9977

SiWI said:

Kranox said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

The thing is Saurus are not mindless monsters, they are robots with one of the best army coordination ever seen, there is multiple instances of this, there was whole threads about this, Saurus are aggressive, but they are focused and are extremely effective at it.

when greatly lead yeah but that isn't always the case and sometimes things go down to the "wire".

Seriously.
I found rampage completely manageable.
Its only a problem for the cavalry, but for infantry?
Oh whats that? my front line infantry already in the fight will not stop fighting?
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

There is also nothing wrong with a race challenging the status quo in terms of management.

Its not the enourmous burden it once was, but its just like a bad mechanic doesnt bring anything fun, its simply a pure downside, units like Saurus, and cav shouldnt rampage

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

Kranox said:

SiWI said:

Kranox said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

The thing is Saurus are not mindless monsters, they are robots with one of the best army coordination ever seen, there is multiple instances of this, there was whole threads about this, Saurus are aggressive, but they are focused and are extremely effective at it.

when greatly lead yeah but that isn't always the case and sometimes things go down to the "wire".

Seriously.
I found rampage completely manageable.
Its only a problem for the cavalry, but for infantry?
Oh whats that? my front line infantry already in the fight will not stop fighting?
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

There is also nothing wrong with a race challenging the status quo in terms of management.

Its not the enourmous burden it once was, but its just like a bad mechanic doesnt bring anything fun, its simply a pure downside, units like Saurus, and cav shouldnt rampage

Then their stats likely also would go down.

SiWI#8629

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

Kranox said:

SiWI said:

Kranox said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

The thing is Saurus are not mindless monsters, they are robots with one of the best army coordination ever seen, there is multiple instances of this, there was whole threads about this, Saurus are aggressive, but they are focused and are extremely effective at it.

when greatly lead yeah but that isn't always the case and sometimes things go down to the "wire".

Seriously.
I found rampage completely manageable.
Its only a problem for the cavalry, but for infantry?
Oh whats that? my front line infantry already in the fight will not stop fighting?
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

There is also nothing wrong with a race challenging the status quo in terms of management.

Its not the enourmous burden it once was, but its just like a bad mechanic doesnt bring anything fun, its simply a pure downside, units like Saurus, and cav shouldnt rampage

Then their stats likely also would go down.

yeah. People forget that sarus are pretty dam good in terms of stats especial in the beginning.
Having some sort of flaw is almost the least CA could do.

Michael4537

SiWI said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

Kranox said:

SiWI said:

Kranox said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

The thing is Saurus are not mindless monsters, they are robots with one of the best army coordination ever seen, there is multiple instances of this, there was whole threads about this, Saurus are aggressive, but they are focused and are extremely effective at it.

when greatly lead yeah but that isn't always the case and sometimes things go down to the "wire".

Seriously.
I found rampage completely manageable.
Its only a problem for the cavalry, but for infantry?
Oh whats that? my front line infantry already in the fight will not stop fighting?
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

There is also nothing wrong with a race challenging the status quo in terms of management.

Its not the enourmous burden it once was, but its just like a bad mechanic doesnt bring anything fun, its simply a pure downside, units like Saurus, and cav shouldnt rampage

Then their stats likely also would go down.

yeah. People forget that sarus are pretty dam good in terms of stats especial in the beginning.
Having some sort of flaw is almost the least CA could do.

I don't like rampage, but I do like that the LM get base stat boosts because of it...

Dracklor#9977

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

Kranox said:

SiWI said:

Kranox said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

The thing is Saurus are not mindless monsters, they are robots with one of the best army coordination ever seen, there is multiple instances of this, there was whole threads about this, Saurus are aggressive, but they are focused and are extremely effective at it.

when greatly lead yeah but that isn't always the case and sometimes things go down to the "wire".

Seriously.
I found rampage completely manageable.
Its only a problem for the cavalry, but for infantry?
Oh whats that? my front line infantry already in the fight will not stop fighting?
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

There is also nothing wrong with a race challenging the status quo in terms of management.

Its not the enourmous burden it once was, but its just like a bad mechanic doesnt bring anything fun, its simply a pure downside, units like Saurus, and cav shouldnt rampage

Then their stats likely also would go down.

Their stats are not boosted because of it, multiple testings have been done and its been told over and over again.

Saurus trade just exactly like they should in terms of cost.

The only one I see is Horned ones, but Cav suffer far more from it than Infantry.

Dracklor#9977

SiWI said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

Kranox said:

SiWI said:

Kranox said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

The thing is Saurus are not mindless monsters, they are robots with one of the best army coordination ever seen, there is multiple instances of this, there was whole threads about this, Saurus are aggressive, but they are focused and are extremely effective at it.

when greatly lead yeah but that isn't always the case and sometimes things go down to the "wire".

Seriously.
I found rampage completely manageable.
Its only a problem for the cavalry, but for infantry?
Oh whats that? my front line infantry already in the fight will not stop fighting?
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

There is also nothing wrong with a race challenging the status quo in terms of management.

Its not the enourmous burden it once was, but its just like a bad mechanic doesnt bring anything fun, its simply a pure downside, units like Saurus, and cav shouldnt rampage

Then their stats likely also would go down.

yeah. People forget that sarus are pretty dam good in terms of stats especial in the beginning.
Having some sort of flaw is almost the least CA could do.

Simply because you have access to it early, their price is perfectly in line with its stats.

Its just the availability that chance.

Stats changes are not needed at all

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

Kranox said:

SiWI said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

Kranox said:

SiWI said:

Kranox said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

The thing is Saurus are not mindless monsters, they are robots with one of the best army coordination ever seen, there is multiple instances of this, there was whole threads about this, Saurus are aggressive, but they are focused and are extremely effective at it.

when greatly lead yeah but that isn't always the case and sometimes things go down to the "wire".

Seriously.
I found rampage completely manageable.
Its only a problem for the cavalry, but for infantry?
Oh whats that? my front line infantry already in the fight will not stop fighting?
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

There is also nothing wrong with a race challenging the status quo in terms of management.

Its not the enourmous burden it once was, but its just like a bad mechanic doesnt bring anything fun, its simply a pure downside, units like Saurus, and cav shouldnt rampage

Then their stats likely also would go down.

yeah. People forget that sarus are pretty dam good in terms of stats especial in the beginning.
Having some sort of flaw is almost the least CA could do.

Simply because you have access to it early, their price is perfectly in line with its stats.

Its just the availability that chance.

Stats changes are not needed at all

Rampage is intended as a somewhat of a downside for the strength of the Saurus Warriors. Remove it and they get more expensive or weaker.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

Rampage needs to go. It competes with WAAAAGGGHHH for the worst mechanic.

Anyway I'm excited for this LP, the units should be good and the LL's will be good too.

Kayosiv#7489

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

Rampage is intended as a somewhat of a downside for the strength of the Saurus Warriors. Remove it and they get more expensive or weaker.

Considering they are decidedly average... that seems silly.

steam_165171714789pPAEKOH

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Sorry, but that's a TW staple. Elephants, berserkers and certain units having the impetuous trait could do stuff without your orders in other titles. Comparing it to Chess is moot. In Chess you move one piece at a time one turn at a time.

So acting like this is new is wrong.

I also don't find it all that much of a downside to the Lizardmen.

Sick of people like this. How would you like your faction's mainline infantry to be out of your control. Saurus are the mainline infantry for lizardmen. That is essentially their entire infantry roster as skinks are skirmishers and chaff. If all swordsmen/spearmen/pikemen/ect. rampaged out of control then no one would even play Total War games as it would be an utter failure.

Whenever this argument is made it is invariably from a person who doesn't play lizardmen.

Not being in control of your own game is NOT a fun way to play any game. The argument of stat increases is a completely stupid one. If you had zero control of your entire army from the start but your stats were godly would that somehow be fun? Use logic.

Nyxilis#3646

endikux said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Sorry, but that's a TW staple. Elephants, berserkers and certain units having the impetuous trait could do stuff without your orders in other titles. Comparing it to Chess is moot. In Chess you move one piece at a time one turn at a time.

So acting like this is new is wrong.

I also don't find it all that much of a downside to the Lizardmen.

Sick of people like this. How would you like your faction's mainline infantry to be out of your control. Saurus are the mainline infantry for lizardmen. That is essentially their entire infantry roster as skinks are skirmishers and chaff. If all swordsmen/spearmen/pikemen/ect. rampaged out of control then no one would even play Total War games as it would be an utter failure.

Whenever this argument is made it is invariably from a person who doesn't play lizardmen.

Not being in control of your own game is NOT a fun way to play any game. The argument of stat increases is a completely stupid one. If you had zero control of your entire army from the start but your stats were godly would that somehow be fun? Use logic.

Ya know, table top let so many more worse things happen in Warhammer than here and that game was played forever. Magic backfires, you can lose control of this or that, and other things.

I mean, you say never played lizardmen so you couldn't inflict any damage on your own troops? Cause... I have some news for you...

TheShiroOfDalton

endikux said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Sorry, but that's a TW staple. Elephants, berserkers and certain units having the impetuous trait could do stuff without your orders in other titles. Comparing it to Chess is moot. In Chess you move one piece at a time one turn at a time.

So acting like this is new is wrong.

I also don't find it all that much of a downside to the Lizardmen.

Sick of people like this. How would you like your faction's mainline infantry to be out of your control. Saurus are the mainline infantry for lizardmen. That is essentially their entire infantry roster as skinks are skirmishers and chaff. If all swordsmen/spearmen/pikemen/ect. rampaged out of control then no one would even play Total War games as it would be an utter failure.

Whenever this argument is made it is invariably from a person who doesn't play lizardmen.

Not being in control of your own game is NOT a fun way to play any game. The argument of stat increases is a completely stupid one. If you had zero control of your entire army from the start but your stats were godly would that somehow be fun? Use logic.

If all those units got Saurus stats and and price...why not? Saurus are damn powerful, they remain reliable well into the lategame.

Also, how would you like it if your faction had tons of overpriced and underpowered units and a slew of silly limitations and debuffs that make it a chore to play? Because that's what CA did to the Skaven. Lizardmen rampage is nothing in comparison.

davedave1124#4773

Ah this is pretty good, I've never seen anyone have a detailed look into the LM.

From what he describes of the Ripperdactyls.. they seem pretty elite, I wonder if they should be a single RoR.

SiWI#8629

Kranox said:

SiWI said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

Kranox said:

SiWI said:

Kranox said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

ya know... i think if the Knights in Med II would've acted like their Ingame Encyclopedia entry said they do (Charge without order) a lot of "Veterans"would've rechoiced at the return of such a deep mechanic...

Actually, the berserk mechanic that elephants are subjected to in practically all TW titles that have them also has them hurt their own units when you lose control over them.

Rampage is pretty toothless in comparison.

The thing is Saurus are not mindless monsters, they are robots with one of the best army coordination ever seen, there is multiple instances of this, there was whole threads about this, Saurus are aggressive, but they are focused and are extremely effective at it.

when greatly lead yeah but that isn't always the case and sometimes things go down to the "wire".

Seriously.
I found rampage completely manageable.
Its only a problem for the cavalry, but for infantry?
Oh whats that? my front line infantry already in the fight will not stop fighting?
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

There is also nothing wrong with a race challenging the status quo in terms of management.

Its not the enourmous burden it once was, but its just like a bad mechanic doesnt bring anything fun, its simply a pure downside, units like Saurus, and cav shouldnt rampage

Then their stats likely also would go down.

yeah. People forget that sarus are pretty dam good in terms of stats especial in the beginning.
Having some sort of flaw is almost the least CA could do.

Simply because you have access to it early, their price is perfectly in line with its stats.

Its just the availability that chance.

Stats changes are not needed at all

you are right the rampage changes are not needed.

davedave1124#4773

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOG0254I_go

fan3982173917524862#7883

I watched his videos. He is very pessimistic about us getting any of the new dinos and thinks we'll be only getting bastiladon versions like the Engine, ripperdactyls and venerable kroxigors and other easy to recycle assets units. I'm inclined to believe him, because he was very sure of himself when we had the 4 silhouettes of the vampire coast lords, calling the 4th one to be a surprise and not exactly from the lore the day they were on the total war academy page. I believe he may have some connections at inner design works with CA.
Also he seemed very upset with how people dismiss Nakai as a possible FLC lord option

Michael4537

davedave1124 said:

Ah this is pretty good, I've never seen anyone have a detailed look into the LM.

From what he describes of the Ripperdactyls.. they seem pretty elite, I wonder if they should be a single RoR.

Nope! If CA goes to the extent of making an entirely new model and unit just to make an RoR, then they might as well include it as a unit anyway, especially every single Ripperdactly rider isn't a RoR.

davedave1124#4773

Michael4537 said:

davedave1124 said:

Ah this is pretty good, I've never seen anyone have a detailed look into the LM.

From what he describes of the Ripperdactyls.. they seem pretty elite, I wonder if they should be a single RoR.

Nope! If CA goes to the extent of making an entirely new model and unit just to make an RoR, then they might as well include it as a unit anyway, especially every single Ripperdactly rider isn't a RoR.

Well they did it for the HE unit/RoR, that was pretty unique. The way he describes them they seem a little OP to be a normal unit. Very AP, hit infantry and cavalry hard, Frenzy etc.