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Please allow us to disable aging

AezuminAezumin Registered Users Posts: 36
edited March 2019 in General Discussion
Greetings Creative Assembly,

first of all I would like to tell you a "well done!" for developing such a variety of great games, in particular the Warhammer series and upcoming Three Kingdoms that expands on the new implementation of the heroic characters by allowing us to choose between a more realistic approach of previous historical titles, and the more heroic approach of the recent Warhammer titles.

That's why I would like to suggest and request a character aging on/off switch in the game options to allow our legendary lords and generals to keep carrying on with their heroic exploits and allow us to be attached to these characters.
If there is a visual display of passing years on the user interface then perhaps these years could be simply replaced with turns just like it was done with the Warhammer titles when this "aging checkbox" takes effect.

Note that this is a suggestion only to provide a bigger range of options in order to appease to more people who for example have preferred how you could stick to your lords in the Warhammer games, and this is not a matter of mortality, because even human characters didn't go completely poof after some tens of turns, rather it's a matter of game pacing with turns of unspecified time rather than years.
Post edited by Aezumin on
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Comments

  • lilpopelilpope Registered Users Posts: 78
    I don't want this... We won't get this either, maybe someone will mod for this
  • AezuminAezumin Registered Users Posts: 36
    edited March 2019
    lilpope said:

    I don't want this... We won't get this either, maybe someone will mod for this

    That would be just an option for those who wish to use it. I have seen people asking about this kind of checkbox around these forums and the Steam ones so I have decided to bring this idea to attention.

    Additional options have rarely ever hurted anybody and only extended the possibilities.
  • lilpopelilpope Registered Users Posts: 78
    Operativ said:

    lilpope said:

    I don't want this... We won't get this either, maybe someone will mod for this

    That would be just an option for those who wish to use it. I have seen people asking about this kind of checkbox around these forums and the Steam ones so I have decided to bring this idea to attention.

    Additional options have rarely ever hurted anybody and only extended the possibilities.
    Don't get me wrong, i don't mind it being in the game at all especially romance mode. More options the better, but i can not see us getting this.
  • AezuminAezumin Registered Users Posts: 36
    edited March 2019
    I see what you mean, well one can hope I suppose? :)

    Being able to tailor some minor aspects of the Total War would be really awesome to have.
  • Warlord_Lu_Bu#2268Warlord_Lu_Bu#2268 Registered Users Posts: 3,303
    It seems a bit odd... but after playing TW Warhammer... I too would like to see the OP's idea implemented. As I listen/read to the novel again and again... it always brings a great sadness to my heart, when characters die and their story ends... their descendants are usually inept (I'll use Liu Bei's son, Liu Shan for example) and it ends up destroying it the story for me.

    When Cao Cao (unfortunately) wins the war against Lu Bu and Chen Gong (his old buddy) decides that he would rather die than serve Cao Cao, a very touching scene happens (in the Three Kingdoms TV Series at least), where Cao Cao even sheds tears over watching his saviour and friend die.

    Or when Liu Bei learns of Guan Yu (and then later, Zhang Fei's) death... you could almost feel the sorrow that was going through Liu Bei's mind.

    Personally, I'd love to see an option for lords to never die, even if defeated in battle.. I'd love to see all the heroes come together again, so they can fight endless battles and feast over their victories and battles together!
    "I am the punishment of Tengger, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chinghis Haan Temujin
  • AezuminAezumin Registered Users Posts: 36
    Thank you for the support @Warlord_Lu_Bu !

    I really do hope we'll get to see this in order to experience the Romancing Mode in a truly heroic perspective.

    Speaking of characters which are defeated in combat, Warhammer handled it by wounding the legendary lords and high-level generic lords with the "Immortality" trait and putting them off the campaign for about 10 turns as they recovered from their heavy wounds. Perhaps something along these lines could be another on/off option to consider as a good mechanic to borrow from the Total War: Warhammer.
  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 5,332
    Someone will probably mod it in, but I don't see CA implementing this.
  • AezuminAezumin Registered Users Posts: 36
    Fossoway said:

    Someone will probably mod it in, but I don't see CA implementing this.

    While I can see it being rather easy to mod in, versioning changes could break some dependencies between mods and we could have a 'heart-breaking' sight of all the characters instantly dying in the small time window where a mod would fail to initialise.

    It's far better to have such small, although delicate features directly implemented as an option by the developers in an official way.
  • Valkaar#2507Valkaar#2507 Registered Users Posts: 6,002
    edited March 2019
    I don’t know....no aging and no death, honestly to me means no stakes. I think one of the main appeals of Total War is specifically those generational differences between leaders...with children inheriting some of their parent’s traits and/or really trying to keep your current leader alive because he has been leveled and tailored to your taste, and then trying to adapt when a less experienced guy inevitably becomes the new leader.

    For me personally, I was disappointed even in Warhammer when they announced immortal legendary lords and no family tree. Don’t get me wrong, the battles and rosters and leveling system in Warhammer are great. However, the ‘eternal lord’ aspect killed a lot of investment, tension, suspense, and roleplay aspects that I had enjoyed in previous Total Wars.

    One poster here talked about the emotional impact the story had when characters died as a reason to disable aging.....I just disagree with that logic. The emotional impact specifically came from their mortality! If you make them all immortal supermen the story and their friendship actually loses depth imo.

    Three Kingdoms does seem to be catering a little bit to the Warhammer fans who liked the immortal lords by allowing lords to just get “wounded” in battle, and making each year = 5 turns, so you’ll likely only go through two, maybe 3 generations before you beat the campaign. So you’re still getting some of what you want.....although I definitely prefer aging in my campaigns personally.

    As far as ‘why not both/just have a tickable box’, I think too many mechanics have been specifically designed around character relationships for CA to gut their own work. Like they’ve put a lot of focus on guanxi and how relationships, both inside your faction and with foreign diplomacy, can fluctuate as various individuals die off and are replaced by people they are more/less compatible with.

    ^^that is a deliberate design choice they wanted to be a part of the game’s atmosphere.

    While in general, I agree with the sentiment that more options are always better.....I just don’t see any developer taking a CORE feature they developed from scratch for their game, and then giving players the option to disable it.

    ^^For good or bad...i think it’s just one of those creative pride things.....like how chefs at fancy restaurants sometimes get offended when you order one of their signature dishes, but custom order it with ketchup instead of whatever sauce they envisioned or created for the dish or how George Lucas won’t release any DVD editions of the original Star Wars trilogy without his CGI add ins.

    ^^Some of that stuff I see where the creators are coming from. Other times I think it is ridiculously arrogant stubbornness on their part, depending on the example. But the fact remains, if any creator deliberately built something they intended for their audience to experience, like CA has with aging and guanxi....I just highly doubt they would add an optional box for a player to just not experience what they worked on.
    Post edited by Valkaar#2507 on
  • LuciusCornelius#7004LuciusCornelius#7004 Registered Users Posts: 1,296

    It seems a bit odd... but after playing TW Warhammer... I too would like to see the OP's idea implemented. As I listen/read to the novel again and again... it always brings a great sadness to my heart, when characters die and their story ends... their descendants are usually inept (I'll use Liu Bei's son, Liu Shan for example) and it ends up destroying it the story for me.

    When Cao Cao (unfortunately) wins the war against Lu Bu and Chen Gong (his old buddy) decides that he would rather die than serve Cao Cao, a very touching scene happens (in the Three Kingdoms TV Series at least), where Cao Cao even sheds tears over watching his saviour and friend die.

    Or when Liu Bei learns of Guan Yu (and then later, Zhang Fei's) death... you could almost feel the sorrow that was going through Liu Bei's mind.

    Personally, I'd love to see an option for lords to never die, even if defeated in battle.. I'd love to see all the heroes come together again, so they can fight endless battles and feast over their victories and battles together!

    As far as the topic of the thread, my guess is that such an option would likely need to be modded in. Immortal generals were not part of any other historical TW game, nor does it make sense in the scope of the three kingdoms romance mode.

    Chen Gongtai preferred death over serving Cao Cao. If he were some immortal character, then any meaning in the moment you mentioned would be lost.

    Sun Quan became emperor of Wu, but if his brother Sun Ce never died, because he was immortal, that would have never happened.

    What makes the Romance of the Three Kingdoms memorable are the failures that these great lords and leaders experienced, including dieing without fulfilling their ambitions. Take that away, and the setting losses all meaning.



  • Warlord_Lu_Bu#2268Warlord_Lu_Bu#2268 Registered Users Posts: 3,303
    Having the option to do this is different from Warhammer though... it is mandatory there, that all legendary lords are invincible.

    When TW Three Kingdoms comes out, I will be playing it as it is... without any mods or any immortality things, that way I can fully appreciate the game and enjoy the full "flavor". However... as with all Total War games... after a few hundred hours of playing... I tend to get a little bored of building up a character for so long, leading his troops to glorious battles... only for him to die from the flu or old age... or that 1 lucky arrow that happens to impale my character's skull.

    If we had the OPTION to allow the characters to live immortal for that campaign... then I don't see a problem... if you don't want it, you don't have to tick the option! I believe it is a good idea and besides.... I want my Lu Bu to live eternal, so he can keep killing that damned Cao Cao as punishment for what he did in real life! PAH!
    "I am the punishment of Tengger, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chinghis Haan Temujin
  • AezuminAezumin Registered Users Posts: 36
    edited March 2019
    From what we know we're going to have two game modes:

    Romancing - heroic characters as a unique, single entity with flashy skills.

    Classic - lords as a unit with bodyguards like in the other historical titles.

    This checkbox would be desirable by a part of the community for the Romancing mode in particular. Perhaps the "immortality" system from Warhammer would require more work, however a convenient option to choose between aging on/off would be really good for people who especially liked how it has been in Warhammer, and an official option like this could make a difference of buying or not for such fans.

    Besides that, building a really solid character on a higher difficulty with everything against you is a really satisfying experience, and a simple aging matter or an illness could ruin this experience for some people.
  • YaafmYaafm Registered Users Posts: 1,276
    Even if it seems easy, it would take a programmer some time to code. Personally it's a very minor feature to me to spend time on since most lords will still live a good 30 years or so(120 turns) if not more. They will have children you will get attached to also, they can/will take over.

    It also partially depends on how long it takes to over the map.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455
    Well it's an an option that added to the new Sims games, but it should not be specific to one character, but it should effect all characters, and that why at least in a multiplayer campaign an players could be able to choose if characters would age or not only at the start of the campaign, if you want only a specific character to not age, then the character should be able to become ageless by supernatural means, an feature that exist in many games that have supernatural elements, such as Sims and even Crusader Kings 2, when an supernatural events are enabled.

    https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Immortality
  • mitthrawnuruodo#4895mitthrawnuruodo#4895 Registered Users Posts: 1,990
    edited March 2019
    I would not want this in the game proper. Immortality will cheapen the characters. Sic transit gloria mundi.

    But I fully support the idea that this should be made moddable for those that want it.
  • AezuminAezumin Registered Users Posts: 36
    edited March 2019
    Moddability of this would be an option only if version updates wouldn't corrupt the mod itself and potentially kill all of the ageless characters of an unsuspecting player as a result.
    That's why officially provided means in form of a checkbox variable, with perhaps more various options to customise a campaign to suit one's needs. This choice would be a considerable quality of life addition to many different players.

    Considering the Romancing mode heroes are already capable of great deeds similar to those described in many Wuxia novels, this wouldn't seem all too strange to have as an optional choice.
  • LuciusCornelius#7004LuciusCornelius#7004 Registered Users Posts: 1,296
    Operativ said:

    From what we know we're going to have two game modes:

    Romancing - heroic characters as a unique, single entity with flashy skills.

    Classic - lords as a unit with bodyguards like in the other historical titles.

    This checkbox would be desirable by a part of the community for the Romancing mode in particular. Perhaps the "immortality" system from Warhammer would require more work, however a convenient option to choose between aging on/off would be really good for people who especially liked how it has been in Warhammer, and an official option like this could make a difference of buying or not for such fans.

    Besides that, building a really solid character on a higher difficulty with everything against you is a really satisfying experience, and a simple aging matter or an illness could ruin this experience for some people.

    I mean I understand your desire to preserve your character. However, as CA has limited resources if I had to pick between them using resources doing this or literally anything else, I would pick anything else.

    If it was just a matter of aging that you want to avoid, there are mods for Rome II that extend the number of turns per year, which essentially make your leaders immortal from an age standpoint. I find it likely that similar mods will be added for RT3k.

    If its other forms of death you are trying to avoid, then there would likely be more fundamental changes in what needs to be modified.
  • AezuminAezumin Registered Users Posts: 36

    Operativ said:

    From what we know we're going to have two game modes:

    Romancing - heroic characters as a unique, single entity with flashy skills.

    Classic - lords as a unit with bodyguards like in the other historical titles.

    This checkbox would be desirable by a part of the community for the Romancing mode in particular. Perhaps the "immortality" system from Warhammer would require more work, however a convenient option to choose between aging on/off would be really good for people who especially liked how it has been in Warhammer, and an official option like this could make a difference of buying or not for such fans.

    Besides that, building a really solid character on a higher difficulty with everything against you is a really satisfying experience, and a simple aging matter or an illness could ruin this experience for some people.

    I mean I understand your desire to preserve your character. However, as CA has limited resources if I had to pick between them using resources doing this or literally anything else, I would pick anything else.

    If it was just a matter of aging that you want to avoid, there are mods for Rome II that extend the number of turns per year, which essentially make your leaders immortal from an age standpoint. I find it likely that similar mods will be added for RT3k.

    If its other forms of death you are trying to avoid, then there would likely be more fundamental changes in what needs to be modified.
    The topic itself is a suggestion to basically add character aging on/off toggle in campaign advanced options before starting a new game.

    If there's a serious other cause such as a critical wound, poisoning or some other form of assassination then that's another case from the one I mentioned here.

  • Whiskeyjack_5691#3558Whiskeyjack_5691#3558 Registered Users Posts: 4,249
    If it was an optional feature for Romance mode only, then I don't see why not. Personally, it doesn't appeal to me at all, but I can imagine some players might like it.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455
    Operativ said:

    Thank you for the support @Warlord_Lu_Bu !

    I really do hope we'll get to see this in order to experience the Romancing Mode in a truly heroic perspective.

    Speaking of characters which are defeated in combat, Warhammer handled it by wounding the legendary lords and high-level generic lords with the "Immortality" trait and putting them off the campaign for about 10 turns as they recovered from their heavy wounds. Perhaps something along these lines could be another on/off option to consider as a good mechanic to borrow from the Total War: Warhammer.

    The main characters in Total War: Three Kingdoms have an Resilience Trait, it's not make them totally immortal like the main characters in Total War: Warhammer but it makes them harder to kill.
  • AezuminAezumin Registered Users Posts: 36

    If it was an optional feature for Romance mode only, then I don't see why not. Personally, it doesn't appeal to me at all, but I can imagine some players might like it.

    That's the idea. Since Romance mode is a mode for legendary deeds, then it would be nice to let the heroes carve the legends.
    This optional choice would also change the situations relying on the old age of a benefitting ally or enemy to finish them off and instead take a more direct, or different approach.
  • YaafmYaafm Registered Users Posts: 1,276
    Operativ said:

    Operativ said:

    From what we know we're going to have two game modes:

    Romancing - heroic characters as a unique, single entity with flashy skills.

    Classic - lords as a unit with bodyguards like in the other historical titles.

    This checkbox would be desirable by a part of the community for the Romancing mode in particular. Perhaps the "immortality" system from Warhammer would require more work, however a convenient option to choose between aging on/off would be really good for people who especially liked how it has been in Warhammer, and an official option like this could make a difference of buying or not for such fans.

    Besides that, building a really solid character on a higher difficulty with everything against you is a really satisfying experience, and a simple aging matter or an illness could ruin this experience for some people.

    I mean I understand your desire to preserve your character. However, as CA has limited resources if I had to pick between them using resources doing this or literally anything else, I would pick anything else.

    If it was just a matter of aging that you want to avoid, there are mods for Rome II that extend the number of turns per year, which essentially make your leaders immortal from an age standpoint. I find it likely that similar mods will be added for RT3k.

    If its other forms of death you are trying to avoid, then there would likely be more fundamental changes in what needs to be modified.
    The topic itself is a suggestion to basically add character aging on/off toggle in campaign advanced options before starting a new game.

    If there's a serious other cause such as a critical wound, poisoning or some other form of assassination then that's another case from the one I mentioned here.

    I honestly think it would cause problems since there are many Generals/Warlords that show up later in the story because they become of age. Your on/off aging switch would mean hundreds of generals would never be seen because they would never age past being a baby. No Sun Ce or Quan, no Cao Pi, no Ma Chao. And then with executions? I play most Romancing games as an executor because I do not want my enemy's having their amazing generals back. Join or Die. With your anti-aging the world would become a very sparse place filled with Random Generals because thats all that could be generated since no aging.

    If you want them to still allow children to age into adults but then stop there. Your are honestly asking for a lot of coding before the game release's. It was only pushed back to do bug fixing and some polish maybe add a few things that were going to be taken out because of the time crunch.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455
    Valkaar said:

    I don’t know....no aging and no death, honestly to me means no stakes. I think one of the main appeals of Total War is specifically those generational differences between leaders...with children inheriting some of their parent’s traits and/or really trying to keep your current leader alive because he has been leveled and tailored to your taste, and then trying to adapt when a less experienced guy inevitably becomes the new leader.

    For me personally, I was disappointed even in Warhammer when they announced immortal legendary lords and no family tree. Don’t get me wrong, the battles and rosters and leveling system in Warhammer are great. However, the ‘eternal lord’ aspect killed a lot of investment, tension, suspense, and roleplay aspects that I had enjoyed in previous Total Wars.

    One poster here talked about the emotional impact the story had when characters died as a reason to disable aging.....I just disagree with that logic. The emotional impact specifically came from their mortality! If you make them all immortal supermen the story and their friendship actually loses depth imo.

    Yes the "death is cheap" trope is an thing when an 'complete immortality' is part of the setting. Well the Warhammer Setting have an characters who are truly Ageless, and even some characters with an 'complete immortality', characters that was killed multiple times, and are keep coming back. Human characters in the Warhammer Setting are not immortal, but Daemons and Undead are immortal, also while the Elves and the Dwarfs in the Warhammer Setting are usually not Ageless, they still have an much longer lifespan than Humans, so if CA was not making all the main characters in Total War: Warhammer "immortal", it would had given an edge to the true immortals characters.
  • LuciusCornelius#7004LuciusCornelius#7004 Registered Users Posts: 1,296
    Operativ said:

    Operativ said:

    From what we know we're going to have two game modes:

    Romancing - heroic characters as a unique, single entity with flashy skills.

    Classic - lords as a unit with bodyguards like in the other historical titles.

    This checkbox would be desirable by a part of the community for the Romancing mode in particular. Perhaps the "immortality" system from Warhammer would require more work, however a convenient option to choose between aging on/off would be really good for people who especially liked how it has been in Warhammer, and an official option like this could make a difference of buying or not for such fans.

    Besides that, building a really solid character on a higher difficulty with everything against you is a really satisfying experience, and a simple aging matter or an illness could ruin this experience for some people.

    I mean I understand your desire to preserve your character. However, as CA has limited resources if I had to pick between them using resources doing this or literally anything else, I would pick anything else.

    If it was just a matter of aging that you want to avoid, there are mods for Rome II that extend the number of turns per year, which essentially make your leaders immortal from an age standpoint. I find it likely that similar mods will be added for RT3k.

    If its other forms of death you are trying to avoid, then there would likely be more fundamental changes in what needs to be modified.
    The topic itself is a suggestion to basically add character aging on/off toggle in campaign advanced options before starting a new game.

    If there's a serious other cause such as a critical wound, poisoning or some other form of assassination then that's another case from the one I mentioned here.

    Thats kinda my point though, you have a very specific set of goals you want accomplished. Which is to not have characters die of old age.

    Within this same thread, another poster said he would essentially like the Three Kingdoms version of Valhalla, where the characters were around forever fighting each other, and then having dinner to discuss their battles. This would seem to be different than what you initially suggested. Which opinion is more right, and which option should CA make? Perhaps both of them? It would not be that much work for CA to take a handful of ideas and implement them.

    However, if we use TW:WH 2 as an examples, it has nearly 10,000 posted mods, where someone thought having one or more features be different would be better. At that point it becomes impossible for CA to implement all the ideas, feature toggles and requested additions. Which is what makes mods, and the modding community so valuable. It is also why something like you are requesting should be left to the modding community. so that CA does not have to spend its resources play testing and balancing a game mode that won't be used by most of the community.

    I doubt there are many instances where a turns per year mod would be broken by an update from CA, and if it did happen its not like all the generals would up and drop dead in one turn.
  • AHumpierRogue#5296AHumpierRogue#5296 Registered Users Posts: 5,654
    edited March 2019
    It is an unfortunate fact of life that frankly, people die. They die when they are sick, they die of Old age, they die in battle, but ultimately, they die. You should definitely have to account for this. Even if it sucks and is inconvenient, the reality is that humans die. That said, feel free to use a mod I guarantee will come out very quickly.
    Formerly known as Krunch, in case you wonder where he went.
  • Warlord_Lu_Bu#2268Warlord_Lu_Bu#2268 Registered Users Posts: 3,303
    Sigh... there are many games out there (Nobunaga's Ambition, ROTK by Koei, etc) that allow Ageless generals... it doesn't mean new ones don't get born... it just means characters don't die. So yes, you could still have Cao Cao, Cao Pi and the rest of his line...

    The only problem I would find... is that if characters cannot die, how can new factions be created - Like if Dong Zhuo doesn't die... Wang Yun, would not be able to complete his plot (getting Lu Bu to assassinate Dong Zhuo). There are ways around it, I suppose, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see what CA decide.
    "I am the punishment of Tengger, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chinghis Haan Temujin
  • YaafmYaafm Registered Users Posts: 1,276

    Sigh... there are many games out there (Nobunaga's Ambition, ROTK by Koei, etc) that allow Ageless generals... it doesn't mean new ones don't get born... it just means characters don't die. So yes, you could still have Cao Cao, Cao Pi and the rest of his line....

    Im confused, RoTK (koei) your generals age and die, all the time. I dont know about Nobunaga's ambition.

    Either way, your missing the point. Planning on having that feature instead of programming it in later, building from the ground up for that reason instead of changing what you have already made to suit it. Drasticlly diffrent.

  • XhalXhal Registered Users Posts: 158
    There were mods in previous total wars and even those without mods had a way to simply edit a text file and you could change the number of turns per year to whatever you wanted.

    I guarantee someone will mod this in 1 day.

    It won't completely disable aging but say you could change it to like 10 or 20 or even 50 turns a year.

    The campaign will be over way before anyone would die of old age.
  • LestaT#8183LestaT#8183 Registered Users Posts: 3,321
    Operativ said:

    If it was an optional feature for Romance mode only, then I don't see why not. Personally, it doesn't appeal to me at all, but I can imagine some players might like it.

    That's the idea. Since Romance mode is a mode for legendary deeds, then it would be nice to let the heroes carve the legends.
    This optional choice would also change the situations relying on the old age of a benefitting ally or enemy to finish them off and instead take a more direct, or different approach.
    History has shown that people do became immortal, not by living forever but doing legendary deeds. The fact that Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Quan etc are still talked about even today is the proof that it is the true form of immortality.

    I agree with some points posted earlier that the game characters can die actually give me more sense of attachment compared to immortal lords in Warhammer.

    My favorite characters in Warhammer are not those legendary lords, but some generic lord whom I grew from the start until they became legendary to my campaign itself.
  • zellyzelly Registered Users Posts: 32
    For me aging and heroes dying is a game mechanic just like gold or buildings.
    It's there to give you choices as to invest exp and time on your current old leader or your young heir etc.
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