Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

DW vs HE

ghtotghtot Posts: 131Registered Users
edited March 9 in Multiplayer
Hello,

I would like to ask some advice how to beat the HE army below as dwarfs
HE army

My best attempt was with this dwarf army using the gyro to trap chariots.
Dwarf army


The hardest part is taking down the noble chariots.


Some challenges dwarfs face vs HE nobles + heal:
  • A HE noble has 27% missle resist if his missle resist item is taken. If Alarielle is close he gets additional 12% physical resist from her aura.
  • When one of the chariots is focused Alarielle can cast something triggering the Shield of Shapery(+11% damage resist) and Earth Blood. If more help is needed Shield of Thorns gives even more buffs and damage resist(22% physical resist, + weapon damage).
  • The chariots that take damage after killing half the dwarfs ranged units can be stacked inside a Star of Avelorn, this puts them back to almost full effectivness.

  • Nobles have small hitbox and very good animations. Missle units(especially trollhammers that do enough damage) cant hit nobles very well unless he is stationary or charges in a straight line towards them from the front. Trollhammers also turn very slow.

  • A single charge into a trollhammer torpedo unit knocks almost all models over and also send some flying triggering their very long stand up and reorganize animations. This prevents most of them from firing even in guard mode.

  • A noble can kill gyros quite fast in melee even when he gets charged by them. Almost as fast as Grimgor which is funny.

  • Regular slayers or ROR slayers gets knocked over, and even whey they hit 110 armor is to much for them.

  • Cannons dont do enough damage and are not even usable on several maps. They also wont fire if the chariot is trapped
    by gyros or inside a friendly ranged unit.

If even 1 noble chariot survives and there are no 2-3 surviving ranged units it is over regardless of
how much melee infantry or lord/heroes left.

The only thing left to try is giant slayers + gyro traps + double rune to slow. But using all the runes on chariots will probably result in lossing the infantry fight, because Shield of Shapery + Earth Blood are map-wide buffs and white lions trade well with dwarf infantry.

Is it possible to somehow fight this very effective HE build as dwarfs?
Sorry if my English is bad in some parts of the post.
«13456

Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,366Registered Users
    Great analysis and question.

    For all the reasons you laid out the unit ruins the matchup. Not only does it require far more funds in explicit ideal counter units than it costs, it also defines the end game for every battle and makes all other engagements in the battle almost irrelevant.

    All of this is contingent on people being good with chariots and healing of course. But who wants a matchup that’s only winnable vs chumps?

    That said I think you can beat that particular build (and some other combos) if you pick the perfect counter army, regardless of player skill/tactics.

    One option is to take four gyrocoptors with brimstone and focus fire mainly on a single noble chariot. You’ll probably have to get it to it’s healing cap but there’s also scenarios where you can make it run and then chase it off. Highly efficient if so.

    Meanwhile stack a super tight small box of elite Melee units far away in good terrain to give yourself more time. Norgrimlings peak gate guard and regular ironbreakers (with some lord supports) can outlast those white lions and two archers aren’t enough to really contest your four gyros or to neutralize your box. Maybe stick a gob lobber in the box to contest the archers a bit.

    The other generic tactics that I think can work are similar infantry build (but swap slayers for another hammerer) and four trollhammers and a few dwarf warriors. Tight formation to wall off chariots from your trollhammers while also giving them a little breathing room and use the trollhammer pressure on the white lions to force the chariots to come to you. When they come, redundant focused fire can kill the chariot units and force the nobles to retreat and heal.

    Another approach is huge ranged spam (thunderers rangers gw and cannons) and cheap infantry. Make a missile kill zone so deadly that chariots can’t approach without perfect timing.

    Both those options aren’t really viable against ideal enemy play though. I think only my first option works and then it is fairly easy to counter if opponent take five archers instead of two.




  • ghtotghtot Posts: 131Registered Users
    edited March 10
    Thanks for this very detailed answer.
    Several gyros could be the key, because chariots sometimes break at 20-30% but 1 is not enough to chase them off, while keeping the others trapped.






  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,157Registered Users
    I totally agree its quite an effective build vs dwarf but i do feel it has a downside, in my view theres not much room for diversity in HE v Dwarf builds for the HE player, the only things that can be added or swapped out would be addition of swordmaster, any other changes and the builds become weaker. You can use this to your advantage and prepare an ideal counter build.

    I use a variant of this list and while i'm not a dwarf expert i do consider myself a HE one :P so i will tell you what gives me trouble in this match-up and hopefully you can go from there.

    Slowing rune on chariots - don't bother using the rune for its damage UNLESS its to target swrodmasters, use it to slow chairots down so your ranged can hit them

    Thunderers and Irondrake things - combined with the rune they can melt Chariot units and SE chariots, I strongly suggest using those to target Noble Chariots and slayers to target chariot units, obviously if no other targets are present just target whats in range.

    About 2 Bugmans OR 1 Organ Gun - reason for this is so the HE basic archers cant shoot you for free for 10 min before they engage.

    Blasting Charge Miners - They will always trade well for their cost if they get their BC off, good for disturbing and roadblocking, it makes it harder for HE to just front up charge you.

    Numbers and Semi Wide formation - don't box up i feel this gives HE's and advantage and try to have few units over them, if you can make about 18 army it makes it hard for HE's bounce between targets without taking damage, and thats another reason to not box up and spread out a bit, so that between his bouncing chariots from unti to unit his taking ranged damage.

    Don't chase to much, keep spread out but make sure at any given time 2 of your ranged are in place to cover any other unit within vicinity and don't over chase, any unit that will over chase will get isolated and will die without you being able to do any damage in return.

    Personally if played well by both players i do feel its very even match-up but i do feel HE's have easier time to play well here provided the player is capable with his micro where as dwarf player needs to preform to best of his skill to even it out. I don't think its broken in anyway though but just sucks that HE's have 1 very viable way to play it and it leads to seeing same armies over and over but thats usually the case vs dwarfs for all factions, they very venerable in some areas but so strong in others that unfortunately their design is their strength and curse at same time.
  • ghtotghtot Posts: 131Registered Users
    edited March 10
    Thanks for the reply from the HE perpective.

    Sad to hear that HE has to rely on hero chariots so much. it looks like the dwarf vs WE situation then,
    where waywatchers were the optimal way to win for WE.

    Maybe they will rebalance few things in the third game that allows more varied play styles for both factions in this matchup.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,157Registered Users
    ghtot said:

    Thanks for the reply from the HE perpective.

    Sad to hear that HE has to rely on hero chariots so much. it looks like the dwarf vs WE situation then,
    where waywatchers were the only way to win for WE.

    Maybe they will rebalance few things in the third game that allows more varied play styles for both factions.

    Well to be specific i don't think HE Need to rely on Noble chariots more so white lions since basically other than swordmasters all their infantry or cav options are negated by Dwarfs as their options apart from WL and Swordmasters are anti large and cav has a horrible time vs dwarfs due to high mass and high armour, its similar case with WE's.

    Chariots are just a dwarf weakness and it happens to be that nobles on chariots are really good, if HE had AP white lion chairos im sure they get picked also.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 2,696Registered Users
    Agree with both Lotus and Eumaies above, each from each perspective. I have played this mostly from the HE side and I have to agree that build options are rather thin. Apart from WL, noble chariots, SM, and archers that was mentioned, there are a few runnerups like BTs, ithilmars, DPs and eagles, mostly for disrupting. One can go cheap on disruption with reavers or ERA, and on some maps you can use a unit of SW or two to deploy behind and harass, but all of these are suboptimal.

    All in all, if Noble chariots were effectively removed by nerfing them then this matchup would be reduced to line rush with WL and SM, which is easily countered. I don't like the way the MU is now, but I think it could become even worse without nobles.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 2,880Registered Users
    Well, I'd disagree that line rush is easily countered. HE have very effective infantry. In fact, even without the noble chariots, I'd give edge to HE in this one. That is my personal preference, some might disagree, but it would be hard to argue that it is not about 50/50 in any case.

    Now, important thing about slowing runes is to remember that they don't affect charge speed. So, even if you cast two runes on a gorebeast chariot or noble on a chariot, and bring them down to 5-7 speed, IF they're close enough and enter their charge animation, they will be moving at their normal speed, totally unaffected by the runes.

    (which is something that should probably be changed, make the speed reduction significantly lower, but make runes also affect charge speed, would make them more effective vs chariots, less effective vs cav)

    So, you need to be careful of timing. Brimstone gyros can work, certainly, and it could be one of the better ways to deal with chariots. HE won't invest into a large airforce and even if they do, withdraw back to thunderer AA umbrella. Sisters are also almost never brought, and the rest of HE archers don't have AP damage. That doesn't mean that you can ignore them, but it does mean that a stray volley or two won't immediately kill your gyros.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,366Registered Users
    No one is saying remove noble chariots (though it’s stupid that they are in all ways crowding out chariot units). Chariots wil always be a tool vs dwarfs. But dwarfs need a giant slayer or other Melee unit that can actually counter cycle charging single entities1v1. It’s a terrible design that they can’t win a battle if opponent brings a healable fast single entity unit and declines to make any mistakes that let it get shot up. Giant slayers are easily countered by everything else so would fit nicely in the matchup.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,366Registered Users
    On the high elf side healing of single entities could be nerfed (helps the game overall too) and regular chariot units could be buffed since they have both risk and reward while noble chariots lose the missile resist item or -5 speed or something minor.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,157Registered Users
    edited March 10
    eumaies said:

    On the high elf side healing of single entities could be nerfed (helps the game overall too) and regular chariot units could be buffed since they have both risk and reward while noble chariots lose the missile resist item or -5 speed or something minor.

    I don't disagree so long Dwarfs lose some mass or BC damage to compensate.

    Star should most definitely be much less bursty
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,366Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    On the high elf side healing of single entities could be nerfed (helps the game overall too) and regular chariot units could be buffed since they have both risk and reward while noble chariots lose the missile resist item or -5 speed or something minor.

    I don't disagree so long Dwarfs lose some mass or BC damage to compensate.

    Star should most definitely be much less bursty
    Don’t see what bc has to do with this matchup.

    And less bursty heals don’t do anything for a fast chariot that retreats to heal anyway.
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 383Registered Users
    edited March 10
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    On the high elf side healing of single entities could be nerfed (helps the game overall too) and regular chariot units could be buffed since they have both risk and reward while noble chariots lose the missile resist item or -5 speed or something minor.

    I don't disagree so long Dwarfs lose some mass or BC damage to compensate.

    Star should most definitely be much less bursty
    Don’t see what bc has to do with this matchup.

    And less bursty heals don’t do anything for a fast chariot that retreats to heal anyway.
    Because its regularly picked in this match up and the fact that they can do significant damage well over their cost?
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,157Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    On the high elf side healing of single entities could be nerfed (helps the game overall too) and regular chariot units could be buffed since they have both risk and reward while noble chariots lose the missile resist item or -5 speed or something minor.

    I don't disagree so long Dwarfs lose some mass or BC damage to compensate.

    Star should most definitely be much less bursty
    Don’t see what bc has to do with this matchup.

    And less bursty heals don’t do anything for a fast chariot that retreats to heal anyway.
    So HE can go more infantry based instead of spam chariots.

    nerf chariots fine but were should HE try to win if you nerf heal and chariots, only way will be WL and SM which will get beat all the time since there be no other viable options in the roster, the reason WL and SM do well now is because the Dwarf needs to spend resources incase of chariots, if they suddenly go more resources to spend int he infantry fight they will win in all phases of the game, i want dwarfs to be less abuse but what do you want? for them to win regardless of what HE's bring?

    Also time spend retreating for a heal is not the same as bursty heal in middle of a fight, if you away for a heal, away from danger you're not doing any damage to the opponent, if the HE player needs to take the chariots out for a min to heal thats 1 min of him not using his chariots to damage, i'm surprised you think less bursty heal doesn't do anything to help here.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 2,696Registered Users
    What I meant is like Lotus expressed it, if the dawi can expect a line rush they have plenty of tools to tie up, debuff and kill infantry.

    Minor touch to noble chariot is probably in order, perhaps a small reduction in cb would make sense to me since that is what makes it perform quite well vs non-intended targets. However, regarding this matchup I think focus should lie on giving dwarves a tool to defend vs single entities rather than nerf other things. New tool needs to be niched though IMO, otherwise it comes at no major investment or risk taking. If giant slayers are made to tie up sems I think they need to perform significantly worse vs infantry. My preferred solution is to give dwarves a monstrous road block unit like golems or whatever the Lore permits. Maybe melee gyros. Something that is niched towards this role. Given the strength of thunderes and trollhammers at focusing down sems, I fear that if you just add some ability on top that doesn't come at a significant investment in terms of niching, then dwf could build near impenetrable fortresses against factions with poor artillery.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,640Registered Users
    edited March 10

    , i want dwarfs to be less abuse but what do you want? for them to win regardless of what HE's bring?

    yes this is exactly what he wants you can infer it also from the "charge defense should reflect damage" thread, he wants Dwarfs to have no weaknesses and genuinely believes that "just bring archers" to counter Giant Slayers would be the HE counter to that when Dwarfs have 10000 answers to archers.

    In Italy we have a saying, "everyone brings water to his windmill" which means that everyone tries to create situations that would leave him better off regardless of what would happen to the rest of us, 100% what's happening here.

    Want counters to chariots? +50g on all Longbeards variants, +75g on Rangers, -accuracy on Cannons, remove shields from Handgunners.

    Then we can talk about charge defense otherwise it's the dream of people wanting a faction to have no weaknesses by design.

    In general Dwarfs come as close as it gets to winning at army selection in this game, due to low mobility the only real decision-making you can do is which targets to focus and what to rune. Everything else is decided by the other player pretty much which makes every battle already won or lost from the start based on the respective compositions.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,157Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    , i want dwarfs to be less abuse but what do you want? for them to win regardless of what HE's bring?

    yes this is exactly what he wants you can infer it also from the "charge defense should reflect damage" thread, he wants Dwarfs to have no weaknesses and genuinely believes that "just bring archers" to counter Giant Slayers would be the HE counter to that when Dwarfs have 10000 answers to archers.

    In Italy we have a saying, "everyone brings water to his windmill" which means that everyone tries to create situations that would leave him better off regardless of what would happen to the rest of us, 100% what's happening here.

    Want counters to chariots? +50g on all Longbeards variants, +75g on Rangers, -accuracy on Cannons, remove shields from Handgunners.

    Then we can talk about charge defense otherwise it's the dream of people wanting a faction to have no weaknesses by design.

    In general Dwarfs come as close as it gets to winning at army selection in this game, due to low mobility the only real decision-making you can do is which targets to focus and what to rune. Everything else is decided by the other player pretty much which makes every battle already won or lost from the start based on the respective compositions.
    The reflect dmg topic is so stupid i don't even want to comment in there, its top 5 stupid tops i read on those forums for sure, so i'm just staying away from commenting there to avoid getting cancer.
  • VistahmVistahm Posts: 187Registered Users
    Instead of whinering as always, dawi players should be thankful to Ca for not given the FREAKING AWESOME white lions chariots to HE.

    the only thing better than smashing and trampling dwarfs, is trampling them with a chariot pulled by a couple of huge and haughty felids.

    So please keep in mind that CA developers infamous lazinnes is already helping you.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,157Registered Users
    Vistahm said:

    Instead of whinering as always, dawi players should be thankful to Ca for not given the FREAKING AWESOME white lions chariots to HE.

    the only thing better than smashing and trampling dwarfs, is trampling them with a chariot pulled by a couple of huge and haughty felids.

    So please keep in mind that CA developers infamous lazinnes is already helping you.

    I'm still hopeful of WL chariot :) and Dragon Mages.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,366Registered Users
    Cirdan said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    On the high elf side healing of single entities could be nerfed (helps the game overall too) and regular chariot units could be buffed since they have both risk and reward while noble chariots lose the missile resist item or -5 speed or something minor.

    I don't disagree so long Dwarfs lose some mass or BC damage to compensate.

    Star should most definitely be much less bursty
    Don’t see what bc has to do with this matchup.

    And less bursty heals don’t do anything for a fast chariot that retreats to heal anyway.
    Because its regularly picked in this match up and the fact that they can do significant damage well over their cost?
    it's one of many options. Fine to discuss nerfing the unit and the faction overall, but they're nothing special in this matchup.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,366Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    On the high elf side healing of single entities could be nerfed (helps the game overall too) and regular chariot units could be buffed since they have both risk and reward while noble chariots lose the missile resist item or -5 speed or something minor.

    I don't disagree so long Dwarfs lose some mass or BC damage to compensate.

    Star should most definitely be much less bursty
    Don’t see what bc has to do with this matchup.

    And less bursty heals don’t do anything for a fast chariot that retreats to heal anyway.
    So HE can go more infantry based instead of spam chariots.

    nerf chariots fine but were should HE try to win if you nerf heal and chariots, only way will be WL and SM which will get beat all the time since there be no other viable options in the roster, the reason WL and SM do well now is because the Dwarf needs to spend resources incase of chariots, if they suddenly go more resources to spend int he infantry fight they will win in all phases of the game, i want dwarfs to be less abuse but what do you want? for them to win regardless of what HE's bring?

    Also time spend retreating for a heal is not the same as bursty heal in middle of a fight, if you away for a heal, away from danger you're not doing any damage to the opponent, if the HE player needs to take the chariots out for a min to heal thats 1 min of him not using his chariots to damage, i'm surprised you think less bursty heal doesn't do anything to help here.
    perhaps you missed where I said buff the standard chariots. Maybe it's just me I think units should be viable in this game and not just single entities.

    And yeah you could nerf a dwarf unit just I don't think miners bc is the relevant one here. trollhammers or thunderers are probably the key units in the matchup.

    Bursty heal is a separate topic with relevance overall but not much relevance to this. Noble chariots retreat from heavy fire anyway, it really doesn't matter to them if they're healing takes twenty seconds longer. The important thing is that all damage done to them is meaningless and that unless you have a ton of healthy ranged they will never be threatened again.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,366Registered Users
    Vistahm said:

    Instead of whinering as always, dawi players should be thankful to Ca for not given the FREAKING AWESOME white lions chariots to HE.

    the only thing better than smashing and trampling dwarfs, is trampling them with a chariot pulled by a couple of huge and haughty felids.

    So please keep in mind that CA developers infamous lazinnes is already helping you.

    white lion chariots is exactly what would make the matchup fun. Any chariot unit is fun, and that one should do awesome armour piercing damage and be devastating. But because it's a unit it will actually take damage and can't be completely healed. So it would be an actual risk/reward and very good for the matchup. Dwarf still has to prepare in case of them so the high elf has a couple build options and so does the dwarf but the dwarf counters actually are reasonably cost effective if he guesses right.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,366Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    , i want dwarfs to be less abuse but what do you want? for them to win regardless of what HE's bring?

    yes this is exactly what he wants you can infer it also from the "charge defense should reflect damage" thread, he wants Dwarfs to have no weaknesses and genuinely believes that "just bring archers" to counter Giant Slayers would be the HE counter to that when Dwarfs have 10000 answers to archers.

    In Italy we have a saying, "everyone brings water to his windmill" which means that everyone tries to create situations that would leave him better off regardless of what would happen to the rest of us, 100% what's happening here.

    Want counters to chariots? +50g on all Longbeards variants, +75g on Rangers, -accuracy on Cannons, remove shields from Handgunners.

    Then we can talk about charge defense otherwise it's the dream of people wanting a faction to have no weaknesses by design.

    In general Dwarfs come as close as it gets to winning at army selection in this game, due to low mobility the only real decision-making you can do is which targets to focus and what to rune. Everything else is decided by the other player pretty much which makes every battle already won or lost from the start based on the respective compositions.
    The reflect dmg topic is so stupid i don't even want to comment in there, its top 5 stupid tops i read on those forums for sure, so i'm just staying away from commenting there to avoid getting cancer.
    wow that was admirable restraint not saying anything rude there. Aren't you a hero.

    Green, you could do all of this:
    "+50g on all Longbeards variants, +75g on Rangers, -accuracy on Cannons, remove shields from Handgunners. "

    and it would be fine if they did that but fixed how single entities and infantry interact. Because then the faction could play multiple types of builds.

    And tell you what green, i'll give you some good dwarf builds and you go try to win with them for me. Let's see how you do since it's all decided in army selection anyway.


  • MTechMTech Posts: 298Registered Users
    Vistahm said:

    Instead of whinering as always, dawi players should be thankful to Ca for not given the FREAKING AWESOME white lions chariots to HE.

    the only thing better than smashing and trampling dwarfs, is trampling them with a chariot pulled by a couple of huge and haughty felids.

    So please keep in mind that CA developers infamous lazinnes is already helping you.

    OH please both of those lazy male lions would rather eat Gayfried and Roy standing on the dinner cart behind them.

    One of the worst 8ed addons only surpassed by the fairy dust powered Skycutter.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,640Registered Users
    edited March 10
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    , i want dwarfs to be less abuse but what do you want? for them to win regardless of what HE's bring?

    yes this is exactly what he wants you can infer it also from the "charge defense should reflect damage" thread, he wants Dwarfs to have no weaknesses and genuinely believes that "just bring archers" to counter Giant Slayers would be the HE counter to that when Dwarfs have 10000 answers to archers.

    In Italy we have a saying, "everyone brings water to his windmill" which means that everyone tries to create situations that would leave him better off regardless of what would happen to the rest of us, 100% what's happening here.

    Want counters to chariots? +50g on all Longbeards variants, +75g on Rangers, -accuracy on Cannons, remove shields from Handgunners.

    Then we can talk about charge defense otherwise it's the dream of people wanting a faction to have no weaknesses by design.

    In general Dwarfs come as close as it gets to winning at army selection in this game, due to low mobility the only real decision-making you can do is which targets to focus and what to rune. Everything else is decided by the other player pretty much which makes every battle already won or lost from the start based on the respective compositions.
    The reflect dmg topic is so stupid i don't even want to comment in there, its top 5 stupid tops i read on those forums for sure, so i'm just staying away from commenting there to avoid getting cancer.
    wow that was admirable restraint not saying anything rude there. Aren't you a hero.

    Green, you could do all of this:
    "+50g on all Longbeards variants, +75g on Rangers, -accuracy on Cannons, remove shields from Handgunners. "

    and it would be fine if they did that but fixed how single entities and infantry interact. Because then the faction could play multiple types of builds.

    And tell you what green, i'll give you some good dwarf builds and you go try to win with them for me. Let's see how you do since it's all decided in army selection anyway.


    I'm not saying it's any easier to win as Dwarfs than it is with other factions, but let's say you pick HE, you have a Spearmen/Fireborn build. Opponent is Norsca with Fimirs GW. Fireborn are not ideal to fight those, but by pinning them in place with something like a Noble or some Spearmen you can deliver shock damage and rout it and deal with a unit that your rosters has no counters to technically. You can outplay your opponent with maneuvering, whereas Dwarfs can outplay their opponent only with positioning and target prioritization.

    With Dwarfs, you can't do such things as a Fireborn charge in a much-needed place mid-game. It comes down to: "will my opponent bring mass Dragons? Then I pick mass Trollhammer Torpedos. Will he go for a wide build? I can pick stuff like Norgrimlings, Blasting Charges and Thunderers". So with Dwarfs more than any other faction it seems to me that there's more of a guessing game. Guess wrong and you can lose at army selection. Guess right and it's a massacre for the enemy player.

    Of course in practice most people don't try to cheese their opponent, so what you often see is a mixed build that is an average of everything that could be good by the, say, HE player and same from Dwarf player (2 Thunderers 1 Trollhammer say). Which makes it balanced.

    But my point is that the balancing of Dwarfs is a very precarious equilibrium unlike, say, balancing of HE where nothing substantial would happen if you buffed -25g on Spearmen (not that they need it).

    As for OP: I think Star is currently overtuned on single entities. It's not a Dwarf problem that it's difficult to win vs that type of build, rather a HE one that Star is too effective on single entities. My suggestion would be to nerf -50% effect on single entities only (Nobles on all mounts, Dragons, Alarielle herself etc.) or make SEs count double in the "max targets" count (so for example if you really need to heal a Star Dragon, you can, but only it and 1 more unit).
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 17,658Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Just a reminder folks, keep the personal comments about other members and groups of other members out of post comments.

    Thanks.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,082Registered Users
    I seriously dont know how to beat nobles, I can kill them, but it takes so much more effort to do and it dowsnt help that while you focus those nobles, Swordmasters and White lions will crush your frontline no problems, healing also doenst help, making those units just basically unkillable, and you pointed out the toughest thing is that if you dont have missiles left at the end, which is the first thing the HE will take out. You simply cannot kill them no matter how many infantry you got due to the nature of cycle charging in this game


  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 2,880Registered Users
    Noble chariots are not needed to be the dwarfs. The only thing that gives dwarfs chance is corner camping, which is something almost all dwarf players do. And when I say corner camp, I don't mean literally touching the white line, but deploying a 100-150m to it so that you still effectively deny that flank to your opponent.

    This is what I call 'soft corner camping'



    So, if you're the opponent of dwarfs and deploy in the red zone, technically you could still pass, as shown by red arrow, but anything that tries to do it is dead, because they have to move more in a column. This is something quite a few of high level dwarf deploy like.

    It's like getting off on a technicality, I'm not literally touching the line, but effectively I'm still denying flank and rear by using the metagame limitation of white lines.
    This gives huge advantage to dwarfs, as their guns don't ever have to rotate more than 90 degrees and can be extremely quickly positioned to focus fire primary targets.

    But, if dwarfs had to deploy in the middle, like good sportsmanship should require, than you as opponent can do this.


    Now, you, as opponent, can approach from both sides, feign attacks, try gain the rear, try to collapse one flank... There is tactics and possibilities.

    But, as long as dwarf players, even at high level, use 'soft corner camping', they will be abused by chariots and other single entity disruptors, because they're denying their opponents every single avenue of approach except brute forcing their way in against a faction that is has absolutely best damage dealing back line, and absolutely best holding front line units, in the entire game.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 2,696Registered Users
    Kranox said:

    I seriously dont know how to beat nobles, I can kill them, but it takes so much more effort to do and it dowsnt help that while you focus those nobles, Swordmasters and White lions will crush your frontline no problems, healing also doenst help, making those units just basically unkillable, and you pointed out the toughest thing is that if you dont have missiles left at the end, which is the first thing the HE will take out. You simply cannot kill them no matter how many infantry you got due to the nature of cycle charging in this game

    Well, it's certainly match-up defining to say the least, but I am not so sure if it's strongly favored in any direction between two good players. I think it was slightly favoring dawi before Alarielle, but with her it shifted to other way by a bit - and in my opinion mostly because she supports white lions more efficiently than Teclis does, while both can support chariots well enough. In any case, it all boils down to some kind of terror balance of mass ranged AP backline vs mass disruption+noble chariots. Can the dawi focus at least one of them down before they create too much disruption to make that impossible? I mean without disruption and distraction you can easily lose one in like 10 seconds, it's crazy. The problem is there are few alternatives for HE to bring mobile AP vs infantry, and ranged tools are poorly suited vs dwarves because of magic damage, while non-ap versions are suboptimal because of most targets have armor and/or shields and/or stalk, even the ranged.

    I think most of all DWF needs a high mass unit, working like treekin for example. Something that comes at a significant cost/sacrifice however, because if it doesn't it will just make it too easy for the dawi player to lock down a target and burn him down in 10 seconds with the undiminished firepower.... so I think tools needs to be added (zoning rather than snaring if you ask me), but at some cost in available firepower too. Having 5-6 spaced out thunderers is already a very viable defense based on pure firepower, if you just add another slow or snare tool on top of that it's just game over I believe. Already now you can easily lose to a pretty average player tbh if you slip up the slightest in your approach, or fail to dodge too many shots on approach etc. Trust me on this, screwing up is something I do very well. :tongue:

    At the end of the day I think it's a pretty difficult matchup to get right, as are many dawi matchups. The lack of mass and speed makes things pretty extreme. So I say again, give the Dawi a high mass unit, it will help also vs TK and WoC for example.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,366Registered Users
    Sarmatian that’s nonsense. The reason you deploy to one side or the other is to give your artillery more time to shoot and force the enemy to march further since they usually guess center. The reason enemies don’t fully envelop is they usually start under fire and can’t afford to delay that long to walk around. Next you’ll be saying it’s poor sportsmanship for the enemy to deploy far back so they can take their time before advancing, but of course that’s just logical play that most people don’t think to do.

    I do envelopment against side deployed dwarf armies all the time and 100m is plenty to get around the two furthest flanks with plenty of units. The difference in distance from artillery range from the far side (if you could take the time to walk completely around) and a direct walk up the board edge is minimal. If you do deploy in the center no one even bothers with such a wide envelopment anyway because it would take forever and you’re facing magic and skirmishing damage too while you try to set that up unless the dwarf brought no tools at all of that kind.

    By far the determining factor in ability to envelop is simply whether you have a unit fast enough to get further than your mainline front wave, as this minimizes the time any part of your force is under fire.



  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,157Registered Users
    Dwarfs players want to win without trying, dwarf units lords are in need of major buffs but majority of dwarf units are in need of nerfs its dwarf player who need to fet good in most cases instead of asking for stupid buffs n nerfs to justify their lack of skill.

    If you disagree let me use dwarfs vs you in best of 3. If you will i stand correctecd, if i lose you will agree with me!

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file