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Why do you want Marius leitdorf?

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
edited March 2019 in General Discussion
I'm planning on doing an in depth post on potential future empire start positions but I had to ask: why Marius?

He seems to be high on alot of peoples lists and I don't get it at all. He's a joke character and the humour derived from him is of an old stereotype of mental illness (one of a fair few things in the Warhammer world that shows its age a bit) and beyond that his only real feat is dying to Greenskins despite his forces being bolstered by most of the empire...also he died before the events of the game, which doesn't bother me, but things like that ruffle peoples feathers, yet I've seen those same people demand Marius regardless.

[ Before you read on! I'd ask you to set aside any discussion of his possible start position for now. I'm trying to point out how anything and everything around that, to me, seems completely lacking. I know some think his start might be good but leave it because this will go nowhere otherwise. ]

Averland is also a province with nothing remarkable about it. All they have is their black guard, mountain guard (I guess) their poverty and that's about it.

Meanwhile: Middenland and nordland have Ulric and all their unique units, Wissenland has Nuln and all of its unique units. Talabecland could basically be the wood elves of the empire and they have a great capital and lore. Osermark are dour b*astards who worship Morr and specialize in fighting the undead.

Maybe I'm missing something but averland seems like the least fleshed out province lore wise and unit wise with nothing much to them.
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Comments

  • ReghisReghis Registered Users Posts: 936
    1. He is/was a member of the elector count
    2. (my opinion) he is kinda iconic/important in the history of the Empire
    3. and the most important reason: his starting position would be in Averland which means, he would perfectly tank the early expansion of Vlad/ Manfred because they are out of control right now
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    edited March 2019
    Reghis said:

    1. He is/was a member of the elector count
    2. (my opinion) he is kinda iconic/important in the history of the Empire
    3. and the most important reason: his starting position would be in Averland which means, he would perfectly tank the early expansion of Vlad/ Manfred because they are out of control right now

    1. Why does it matter if he's an elector count? 2 of the 3 Empire LL aren't elector counts. Plus there's at least 4 others who fit that bill.

    2. My main question is how is he iconic?

    3. I said not to mention his start position because it's only going to bog down the conversation. Everyones going to say that (even though I'd argue his position isn't as good or essential as they say)
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 3,051
    He got a model and an army book blurb.

    That's usually why people talk about something being "iconic".
  • ReghisReghis Registered Users Posts: 936
    edited March 2019
    1. if CA finally would rework the Empire they have to add some proper elector count mechanics and Leitdorf was a member
    2. he was a mad person. challenged Franz and other electors. started a rebellion and then fought a great battle at the Black fire Pass (where he died). iconic was a bit too much i guess but he was a really interesting person
    3. great that you said that but this is the MOST IMPORTANT thing why so many ppl want him and you asked why
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Sir_Godspeed that doesn't make much sense to me. Having a model doesn't make something better or more interesting. Nor does it really make it more legitimate since, with or without it, it's still a part of the Warhammer world.

    Single entities have been made into units, half armies have been made into full factions. Dead characters have been resurrected. Liberties have been taken with the lore. Characters and units have been made from scratch. There's no higherarchy and no strict rules, it's honestly just s case of what we want and what CA wants (especially now that most main races and characters are present and accounted for)
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    edited March 2019
    @Reghis how is he interesting? He's illogical and self contradictory. intentionally so. That doesn't make him interesting.

    So one of the only things he did that's worth mentioning is he died...

    I said don't mention his start because when we get down to it I think that's really the only reason people want him and one of the points I'm trying to make is: that's dumb, especially when his start isn't actually as good as people think it is.

    If they update the empire it could be leader based (don't have to be counts, just the head of the in game faction) or it could be religion based, or it could be a civil war. we're never getting every elector count so even if we focus on a leader based politics system, the others are going to be genetic stand ins anyway. He could even just be added like borris was, we don't need to play him.
  • ReghisReghis Registered Users Posts: 936
    edited March 2019

    @Reghis how is he interesting? He's unpredictable and illogical, intentionally so. That doesn't make him interesting.

    So one of the only things he did that's worth mentioning is he died...

    I said don't mention his start because when we get down to it I think that's really the only reason people want him.

    If they update the empire it could be leader based (don't have to be counts, just the head of the in game faction) or it could be religion based, or it could be a civil war. we're never getting every elector count so even if we focus on a leader based politics system, the others are going to be genetic stand ins anyway. He could even just be added like borris was, we don't need to play him.

    wait you asked why we want him. i even wrote (my opinion) i think he is interesting and now youre telling me he is not?....dude why you even opened this thread and asked for other ppl opinion if youre telling them their personal taste is wrong? Just for you again: if you tell me that doesnt make him interesting would not change the fact that i like him and THINK he is ...
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    edited March 2019
    @Reghis I didn't say you're wrong, I'm stating my opinion. I even started that by asking 'how does that make him interesting?' You haven't provided any evidence that he's interesting, you've just said hes mental and he died...
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Reghis you haven't even really went into why you personally find him interesting.
  • ReghisReghis Registered Users Posts: 936
    edited March 2019

    @Reghis I'm stating my opinion. You haven't provided any evidence that he's interesting, you've just said hes mental and he died...

    are you kidding right now? i have to prove why i like something? because i do? you know that ppl like different things and dont have to explain why (and i even did: i said i like his madness and unpredictability which makes him interesting for me...) what do i have to prove you? my personal taste?
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Reghis when I said evidence I meant: point me to something he does in the lore that makes him interesting. I also asked you about your personal opinion because you haven't really went into that at all. I'm not being as hostile as you think.
  • ReghisReghis Registered Users Posts: 936
    edited March 2019
    i told you why..multiple times and again (for the last time) FOR ME ..just for me and sorry i dont have any evidence for you because its just MY PERSONAL taste, his madness and unpredictability makes him an interessting character. do u have to agree? no but telling me that i have no prove that he is interessting? really? what the even hell. how can you "prove" personal preverence?
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Reghis wait hold up.

    "you know that ppl like different things and dont have to explain why"

    I'd argue that it's very important to understand why you like what you like and don't like what you don't. Being able to deconstruct things and seperate out what makes up your taste is important in being articulate and helps you better understand how things work. How you work.

    But ignoring that for now: if you don't want to ever explain why you like something that's your decision obviously. However, if that's the case, why Do you regular a forum where people constantly discuss, articulate and debate their opinions?

    And more to the point: why did you respond to my thread when I was litterally asking you to articulate your opinion?!...
  • ReghisReghis Registered Users Posts: 936
    edited March 2019

    @Reghis wait hold up.



    But ignoring that for now: if you don't want to ever explain why you like something that's your decision obviously.

    told you 3 times
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,377

    Reghis said:

    1. He is/was a member of the elector count
    2. (my opinion) he is kinda iconic/important in the history of the Empire
    3. and the most important reason: his starting position would be in Averland which means, he would perfectly tank the early expansion of Vlad/ Manfred because they are out of control right now

    1. Why does it matter if he's an elector count? 2 of the 3 Empire LL aren't elector counts. Plus there's at least 4 others who fit that bill.

    2. My main question is how is he iconic?

    3. I said not to mention his start position because it's only going to bog down the conversation. Everyones going to say that (even though I'd argue his position isn't as good or essential as they say)
    1. If CA decides to add some sort of Elector Count mechanic, Marius would fit perfectly. Not really sure if that is going to be a thing, and honestly I don't think it's that important that he is an elector count. He is, however, unique among the Empire character. He's loyal, brave, a great leader, absolutely nuts, and has a brutal sense of humor. I can't think of any other Empire character that is both likable and presents a potentially very entertaining faction leader. Just think of the hilarity CA could add for the diplomacy screen. You select Averland and Marius starts spouting madness at you like a lunatic. Or he has a quest battle and it's something like fighting a single white rabbit.

    2. I'm not really sure how this "iconic" thing seems to work, but I definitely wouldn't call him iconic. He was an important Warhammer character, but I doubt many people who have done TT or read some lore would say "Marius" when asked what they know about Warhammer. He did, however, get a lore update in the 8th edition, the edition this game is primarily based off of, and I'm not sure how many other empire characters can say the same.

    3. You can't talk about new characters without discussing their potential start positions and what they offer. He is close to the Vampire Counts, but so are a lot of others so we'll ignore that for now. Now Averland is a great place for a few reasons. First off, it guards Blackfire Pass, giving an Empire faction easy and early interactions with factions in the Badlands and potentially the Southern Realms (if they're ever added). Second, there is a perfect lore excuse for starting enemies withing Averland. Streissen, a large city within Averland, secured a charter for independence in the past, and although they are now back under the control of Averland, there are still frequent problems and rebellions. A large, armed insurrection would make for a great and fairly interesting starting opponent. Third, Averheim is home to several Knightly Orders, including the Order of the Black Bear. They're a band of brave, crazy, and borderline reckless soldiers that would complement Marius extremely well in terms of concept and aesthetics. They'd also be a good excuse to add an anti-large cavalry unit to the Empire's roster.

    So all in all, I'd say that Averland would add just as many cool things as the other provinces. And Marius is the remaining Empire character I find most interesting and likable, and he has a good deal of background information as well, more than most all of the other elector counts.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Reghis he's interesting because he's mad...that's a statement, not a justification.

    I would go onto dissect that and question how that's justification enough to like him, nevermind demand him over other candidates but there's no point when you object to the very idea of having this conversation.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Michael4537

    1. Him and the 8 other elector counts of the 8 other provinces would fit perfectly yes... because they're all elector counts...

    That's one of the things I object to, as I said in the beginning. He's a joke character, he's like an in lore meme and I object to putting him in because it would cheapen the game and the world.

    Not only that but it would perminently take resources away from other areas and characters that could be added.

    Like I said, the but of the joke is his mental illness which is a dated thing to make fun of but also, how would this humour translate into a very slow burn methodical strategy RPG? Youd get a chuckle from the diplomacy screen or his battle commentary now and again but that's it and most importantly: jokes like this only work like once. If you played as him and did his non sensical quest and got a laugh then that would be it. From then on, doing his content would be business as usual.

    Jokes like this aren't just cheep they have a very short life span and are very of their time (Marius was of his time 40 years ago...)

    I don't see how this justifies making him playable even if he does make it in.
  • ReghisReghis Registered Users Posts: 936
    we got it friend. you dont care to hear why ppl want him. the only purpose of your thread is to disagree with everything and everyone. classic
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,182
    edited March 2019
    Marius is a good choice because of several reasons. I personally think he has an interesting and sympathetic portrayal. He's a genius, both generally and tactically, an excellent duelist (yes he lost to the Orc, but so did Karl even after Marius wounded the Warboss, Karl was only saved by Sigmar's intervention), but he does have to cope with being a leader while also dealing with mental illness. He has humour about him despite all this. Also, he is very much alive at the start of the game, as the game begins with Karl's coronation so Marius is fine.

    But he is also excellent mechanically. He's a horsebound and on foot duelist, yes, but where he shines is in his potential madness mechanics. I feel that he would be easy to do justice to by borrowing some of the mechanics from Harkon. Here is some stuff I've outlined previously (as in, I've been writing this down and thinking about it for ages):

    Marius could get something similar to Harkon, but perhaps less punishing/powerful depending on how it affects Harkon because Harkon can fix his personalities but Marius will have to deal with his mood swings the whole time. Basically, depending on how Marius is feeling, he should gain access to certain abilities/advantages.

    For example:

    1) A boost to his leadership aura because he starts getting really chill and singing, occasionally impersonating Helboring and generally being funny. A good time is had by all.

    2) He gets real mad about something and gains frenzy until his next change in mood.

    3) He becomes paranoid and assumes everyone is out to get him, including his shadow. In a mood like this nobody wants to be around him (including himself, darn shadow!) and so everyone in his army gains a boost to movement speed.

    4) Marius pulls a Vlad and grants his whole army Vanguard. This is only after having a chat with Daisy and deciding that it would be a good idea to do so.

    5) Marius insults his enemies so cleverly and angrily that when fighting them they can be affected by rampage (so he basically becomes a general with that witch elf rampage ability). OR instead he could gain an ability that lets him target someone and send them on a rampage.

    6) Uh oh! Marius becomes immune to psychology because he thinks he is invincible! He also gains some MA but... alas... now has Rampage.

    Now you will notice that, unlike his original rules, most of these do not have massive negatives associated with them, but rather all have some form of boon that can appear at random. I think this is a good idea because then the player does not feel punished unfairly, but rather has to adapt to the style of play Marius offers at that point in time. This is especially important, I feel, because, unlike Harkon, Marius is stuck with this randomness the whole time. It also means that on occasion you will want to consider waiting to see what effect Marius will be stuck with, and so perhaps wait for the proper time to strike.

    The above are also only some potential ideas based on his insanity rules from the army book. There are plenty of other options that could offer different benefits, perhaps to the campaign map rather than the battle map. Or he could randomly get two: one battle and one campaign. I feel that some could do nothing, like his army gaining +400% weapon strength against bees or unicorns, or be very minor, like negative diplomatic relations with Parravon.

    Starting Traits:

    Marius should have a diplomatic bonus with Dwarf factions as he is known to actually trust them more than his fellow Elector Counts (this is less madness, perhaps, and more wisdom). Similarly, he should not be well liked by other Elector Counts, though perhaps Reikland should be more neutral as he became a friend of Franz.

    Marius is also known for actually providing for his army, strangely enough, and so should have a bonus towards his state troops specifically. This is something that most other Empire Legendary Lords do not seem to bring. Volkmar has his flagellants, Gelt his general armour buffing, and Franz? I believe he mostly buffs Reiksguard and has a general bonus to leadership. However since he is so keen to insult people he should have some trouble recruiting other units that are made up of the nobility. Reiksguard/important knights generally won't like him because he teases Helboring, for instance, so he could get an upkeep increase for them. Basically, I'd love for Marius to be a rank and file leader.

    Starting Position:

    We all know where Averland is, but it does offer some benefits. First of which is that you can go after both the Vampires and the Greenskins faster than an Altdorf start can. This makes sense as Marius will dislike either of them and especially has a rivalry with the Greenskins. But it also lends itself to some interesting, or ahem mad, options like deciding that the Southern Realms would be a good addition to the Empire and why not go pay the Border Princes a visit.

    There is another point about this, but one of the reasons the Empire gets run over by vampires is because only one Empire faction actually gets the autoresolve bonus for being a major playable faction. Well, if we make a playable Empire faction somewhere near the Vampires then it will act as a stronger speedbump for the VonCarsteins... and Averland is pretty close to Sylvania...

    So yes, Marius. Marius is great. He provides interesting potential mechanics, traits, expansion options, and general good times.
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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Michael4537 one of the main reasons I didn't want you to talk about his start position is because I don't think his start position is good at all it's good as is. Its on par maybe with others but still.

    Marius is too close to the vampires. The vampires are the only thing that even mildly stand in the empires way on the campaign map and even then I've never seen them win.

    Both of averlands settlements are situated 3 turns away from class starting position and he exists in a **** minor settlement. making Marius playable would allow the player to very early on, destroy the only hope the campaign has of at least slowing down the empire because you'd just trash them all before they were at full strength and Vlad would just be erased from the campaign make like skarsnik.

    Unless you buff the vampires and make vlads bit a major settlement, make him stronger or give him a breasting garisson, he's going to get squashed and the empires going to be stronger and the old world is going to be that bit more boring (when have you ever seen any activity in the Reik basin area on the map aside from the empire and vampires for a little?)

    Blackfire pass opens up to a major settlement with walls and beyond that is one of the biggest clusterfu*k areas in the old world. What's more: the time it takes to get from averland to the border prince settlement and capture it (gaining a foothold) is about 3-4 turns. The exact same time it takes for Wissenland to reach their closest border prince settlement and take it. Plus they only have to deal with a minor settlement.

    Averland has access to dwarfs, vampires and Greenskins early on, while other factions in the empire have more veriaty, being able to fight Norscan, dwarfs, wood elves, Greenskins and even Skaven and chaos depending on where you are. (Osermark gets the same access as averland but it'd be better because then you can't kill Vlad and they could be build around fighting undead and chaos because their faction actually has something going for them.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    Reghis said:

    we got it friend. you dont care to hear why ppl want him. the only purpose of your thread is to disagree with everything and everyone. classic

    No, the point of my thread is that I do disagree. Not that I want to. Do you think I'd want to argue with you on purpose? The irony is that, I have the different opinion and I want to talk about it, you have the standard opinion for this forum and the concept of opinions other than your own is so foreign to you that you don't seem to understand it, your offended by it and you resent having to defend your opinion against someone else's.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,182
    Funny thing is that much of what you think is a problem is, to me, a positive.
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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Canuovea

    If he starts friendly with the dwarfs (currently he starts with trade agreements with the karak next to him) then his expansion options shink even further.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    Canuovea said:

    Funny thing is that much of what you think is a problem is, to me, a positive.

    How so?
  • ReghisReghis Registered Users Posts: 936
    edited March 2019

    Reghis said:

    we got it friend. you dont care to hear why ppl want him. the only purpose of your thread is to disagree with everything and everyone. classic

    No, the point of my thread is that I do disagree. Not that I want to. Do you think I'd want to argue with you on purpose? The irony is that, I have the different opinion and I want to talk about it, you have the standard opinion for this forum and the concept of opinions other than your own is so foreign to you that you don't seem to understand it, your offended by it and you resent having to defend your opinion against someone else's.
    you cant even accept the fact that ppl have different preferences so youre asking for "evidence" for personal taste which ...well is the most stupid thing i ever heard...im not offended at all i just realized that i cant discuss with somebody who tells me i have to prove why i like something even if i told you 3 reasons multiple times. your thread makes no sense because instead of discussing things you are automatically in the "nope this is wrong, your opinion is wrong, your personal taste is wrong... prove it " mood. cya
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Canuovea you can access Greenskins faster as Wissenland and even osermark is in close proximity to red eye I think it is.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Canuovea Averland is far to close to act as a buffer. Controlled by the player the vampires have no chance unless they make averland destitute like it should be and don't let you get a full stack going (even then Vlad is dead) and as the AI, there will be some too and frow but this will translate to the vampires either being mostly contained and therefore a non element, or they will get destroyed by Marius and the empire, player or no.
  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,645
    - he is an elector count, which means it makes SENSE that he leads an empire faction
    - he is one of the FEW elector counts, that actually got tabletop rules for him
    - He is a duelist (dual-wielding)
    - The madness (which btw is NOT mental illness, in fact there is someone that does that to him) allows an interesting mechanic to be used

    I agree on the starting-position being poor, just like Middenland being a very poor starting position.

    The start position would be more interesting, if the border princes would be a "southern realms" faction that you can fight early on.


    But overall its a bad starting-position, it does not allow conquering fast, unless you go after the border princes, but thats outside of the empire.

    I indeed agree that YES the position and gameplay of the position is very poor, however people like the actual character.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,182

    @Canuovea you can access Greenskins faster as Wissenland and even osermark is in close proximity to red eye I think it is.

    But not the Greenskins. The faction and the Badlands.

    As for the benefits, you talk about the Empire like the Vampires are the only thing stopping them from taking over... But as it stands the Empire is consistently beaten by the Vampires. Marius would be one way to slow the Vampires down. I don't think that the Empire would suddenly snowball if he were added.

    Consider too that the Dwarfs now tend to hold but not expand. This means that Marius could go down to help out. South, North are both viable directions for expansion. Could also go west I suppose. It would certainly be nice to have Blackfire Pass actually mean something.

    I think Marius has some good options in terms of expansion and mechanics.
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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Sultschiem nordland would be better than Middenland. Wissenland would be better than averland.

    Him duel wielding amounts to very little when his competition includes an amethyst wizards with a dragon. An elector count with a proper Griffen. Helborg (who could be in sudenburg) or any of the others.
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