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Why do you want Marius leitdorf?

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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Canuovea Wissenland has the same access as averland, only they have a historical tension with the surrounding dwarfs and a safer way to enter the southern realms and the badlands.

    Talabecland, Wissenland or osermark would help batter them back and be more balanced in doing so. By the time the vampires break through stirland and or averland they are strong enough for the player to face them. Stirland and averland would make the perfect cussion for both sides, whether played by us or acted out by the ai.

    The empire takes over every time, I've never seen the vampires 'win'. I'm not using hyperbole when I say every campaign I've played in the old world has seen the empire take over. Even raze all of Norsca as the AI and swat chaos like it was nothing. Even in the first game. Vampire counts only stick around until the mid game and even then they are just waiting to die.

    The reason the empire so desperately needs an update, a civil war, religious division, is because that part of the map is all red all the time and they're to damn homogeneous and to powerful.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,182
    Wissenland is right next to Reikland. The only difference is the lack of having to worry about Norsca and no access to Marianburg.

    Neither Boris nor Elspeth had rules in the 8th Edition Armybook. They're cool potential options, yes, but Marius brings better personal mechanics.

    As an AI Marius acts as a good Vampire Speed bump. As the player is it any different from Bretonnia starting essentially next to Kemmler? Easy to deal with. Khazrak and Noctilus are right next to the Fey, to say nothing of the South of Lustria...
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  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,182
    I've never seen the Empire stomp the Vampires, unless I helped them significantly.
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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    edited March 2019
    @Canuovea I literally tested averland Vs Wissenland in terms of their access to the different factions around them and both have exactly equal access to the great green prophet. Wissenland has great access to skavenblight, tilea, estalia, the wood elves and beyond that bretonnia and southern realms and the Greenskins and the dwarfs. Averland is far more limited.

    It's not the same start at all. As the empire you expand more north or wait to Confederate. As Wissenland you expand south, south west. Averland and Wissenland are also right next to eachother...so are Reikland and Middenland yet everyone wants them playable, even though they would have the actual worst start, as bad as Talabecland because they're land locked. Only having 1 way to go.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Canuovea mate. I'm not trying to mess with you when I say 100% of the time the empire wins for me.

    How are they losing for you when the dwarfs also fight the vampires? The alliance of these two are what kill the old world late game dead, just like how hexoatl and the high elves and the exiles of Nehek completely powderise the dark elves every time which kills the new world late game.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    Marius brings better potential than Wissenland? A province with greater and more varied expansion options that has a province with actual history, loads of unique units, the potential for a unique playstyle, the potential for them to finally implement master engineers. The potential to implement the war wagon (yes I know) potential to implement amethyst wizards and God knows what else?

    Marius's madness isn't new to the game, nor is it better in comparison to everything I just listed. And that's just Wissenland.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    edited March 2019
    @Canuovea Wissenland could also introduce Theodore Bruckner as a lord (the mountain with an insanely huge demigryph mount) and Jubal falk (potential future head of the gunnery school who is an exceptional commander and who acts like a gunnery Wight (he has a hochland long rifle as do many in Nuln so you could add them too)
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,182
    Dwarfs don't tend to do well against the Greenskins right now. The Dawitide for me is a thing of the past.

    I believe you though, sometimes that is just how things happen. Lots of the forum seems to complain about the ascendancy of Vampires though.

    Wissenland seems to mostly be Confederation fodder for Reikland. That being said they're not bad for reaching the South. They don't have Blackfire Pass though, and I want more Blackfire Pass.
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  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,182
    Wissenland being viable sounds like it would depend on a bunch of extra content. Marius could easily be done as is and be quite viable.

    Besides any extra stuff for the Empire, that requires a bunch of work, should probably be straight up knightly orders.
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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Canuovea what would blackfire pass offer though?

    Think about it. I tested it without any buffs to movement speed or mods drastically altering anything and from being inside Pfieldorf in wissenland to capturing Zvorak (border princes settlement) it takes 4 turns. 3 on forced march. for Averland. the time it takes to get from Grenzstadt to capturing Akendorf is about 3-4 turns depending on how you go about besieging it and depending on whether its garrisoned or whatever.

    the distance from Wissenland round to Akendorf is the same as the distance from Averland round to Zorak, 5 turns; so there isn't a disadvantage to not having black fire pass.

    and like i said about the vampires? if wissenland is the playable faction how does the player come into contact with the vampires? well either the player waits until they get military access or confederation (when i was testing out this stuff, i got military access with Averland as Wissenland on turn 16) or the player waits until the vampires break through. either way: both the empire playable faction and the vampires have had time to gather their strength and now fighting them will be more fair and more of a challenge. plus, if the vampires take Grenzstadt or you confederate Averland then you get black fire pass.

    another good thing about wissenland over Averland would be the option to turtle if you wanted and gather strength.

    in the lore, the only fertile land in wissenland is around the river avar and Reik. everything else is craggy mountain land and the people of wissenland are known to mine just like the dwarfs in and around the area. this has lead to tensions with the dwarfs. also, in the winter, the mountains become impassible but the people of wissenland have an underground tunnel that runs all the way through to the Miragliano region in Tilea. because of this lore i think you could justify making Wissenland aclimatized to mountainous regions and even give them access to the underway through this region which would allow them to defend their settlements here better and move even quicker (you arent that impeded here anyway)
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Canuovea you might say that the same is true the other way round, that as averland you could confederate wissenland and that would be that but karak Izor, karak hirn, and all the other settlements down wissenland way are very vulnerable early game, something you cant exploit as averland (plus you wouldnt be as acclimatised or anything). but as wissenland you can exploit the border princes and the bad lands in the same relative way to Averland.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Canuovea why spacifically knightly orders? the Empire needs knightly orders but then it also needs missile units (deathjacks, ironsides, huntsmen, longrifles and so on) and it also needs all of the ulric units (white wolf, toutogen, Brotherhood of the axe, swords of ulric and so on)

    they could also do a bunch with making the regions that little bit different. talabecland could get buffs fighting in forest. ulric factions could have the strongest infantry (or at least the highest attack) wissenland could be a bit vamprie coast esc, osermark could have buffs to untainted and fighting undead and so on.

    the only knightly orders that really need included are the panthers and the wolfs. everything else is kind of just a reskin as far as i know. which would be easier yes but wouldnt need to be tied to any one update or LL release.

    yes wissenland might be more work. so might nordland and middenland. so might the overhauls we are discussing. if we add marius though, we might exclude one of the others, even if he is easy to implement, CA are only going to add a certain amount and if they add marius and people are happy with it they might just say job done and move on.
  • ErathilErathil Registered Users Posts: 1,019
    I never cared for ol' Lietdorf.

    Personally, I'd still want Elspeth von Draken above anyone else (still the coolest thing to ever happen to the Empire).

    It would make sense to start her in Nuln... but that's really close to Altdorf, so it wouldn't meaningfully change the campaign play.

    That's an issue for the Empire... it feels really weird for Karl Franz, Volkmar, and Balthazar Gelt to not be in the same faction. And if or when the Empire is expanded, the biggest and most important settlements for them are all really close to Altdorf (Middenheim, Nuln, and Talabheim are all one province over, and those are the only cities even in the same league as the capital).
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,461
    edited March 2019

    1. Why does it matter if he's an elector count?

    This has to be a troll thread.

    Marius is too close to the vampires. The vampires are the only thing that even mildly stand in the empires way on the campaign map and even then I've never seen them win.

    Lol.


    That's one of the things I object to, as I said in the beginning. He's a joke character, he's like an in lore meme and I object to putting him in because it would cheapen the game and the world.

    You could say that about literally every Warhammer character, it's a parody on real life.
    81jt2dj75iky.png


    Kia Kaha and C'est La Vie Kiwi123, neodeinos and FungusHound, the mighty Troll Slayers.
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,382
    I like Marius a lot, and he's my most wanted elector count. (I'd take Middenland over Averland for the special units, but in terms of LLs I'd take Marius over Boris any day.)

    First of all, Marius wasn't a no-name character. He originated in earlier editions, and he's the only Elector Count that made it into the 8th edition rulebook as a special character along with a page of fluff dedicated to him. So he's an old and venerable part of Empire lore, even if he isn't a major character.

    Personality-wise, Marius's insanity is a lot less crippling and malevolent than we ususlly see in Warhammer. He isn't cruel or ax-crazy like Queek or [insert Chaos character], and he's not stark raving mad like Luthor Harkon so much as he is nutty and eccentric. He wouldn't punish a criminal with the most vile tortures possible; he'd do something like make them put a slice of bologna on their face, go to the center of the biggest market in Averheim, and start yodelling. It's goofy, sure, but it makes him stand out, and Warhammer is rooted in goofiness almost as much as grimdark.

    Finally, Marius is more than just a nutty noble. He's a master fencer and a good leader as long as he has some firm yet benevolent advisors around to curb his excesses. (Heck, the fact that he listens to advisors regarding his behavior at all is a strong mark in his favor.) He may talk to Daisy all the time and make faces at the Bretonnian ambassador during state dinners, but when push comes to shove Marius can stand with the Empire's greats. There's a very good reason Karl Franz liked him personally and counted him as one of his closest allies in the Empire.

    Marius's personality offers a lot of potential for funny mechanics, bonuses, and dialogue. (-15 diplomatic relations with all non-Imperial countries as Marius keeps upsetting their envoys!) He certainly has more potential for fun stuff than most other non-implemented Imperials.

    That's why I like him.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,377
    Basically, @Canuovea and @Some_Scribe have summed up why Marius is a highly requested LL. He is not just a joke character. Does he do some entertaining things? Yes, of course. A lot of characters could be considered jokes, like Thonquol and his constant failures, or the entirety of the Greenskins and Skaven. Wurrzag bloody DANCES with a bright painted mask and constantly spouts gibberish in a grimdark, slow-paced, RPG game. And that's one of the things that make him my favorite Greenskin LL, along with his background. Marius has an interesting and surprisingly deep background. He the only 8th Ed. Elector Count. His personality is unique among the Empire, and I'd even say it's unique in Warhammer Fantasy. He's a fantastic leader who genuinely cares for his people, even though he can be a bit crazy. And his "insanity" isn't just for humor. It makes him unpredictable and dangerous (leading to a very entertaining relationship with Kurt Helborg), adding more depth and layer to his character. It's not a malignant madness like Queek's or Luthor's, it sets him apart and makes him seem more human with this flaw. He just seems like someone enjoyable to be around, whether it be in battle or in a bar (as long as your not on his bad side).

    But I think the big issue here is personal preference. I think Marius is an awesome character, would start in an interesting position, and have unique mechanics as I and others have explained. Other people, yourself included, want different characters such as Elspeth. And the "fear" is that if one character is included, the ones that we want will be left out. CA can only add so much to the game, and chances to add new content for old races is few and far between especially with CA's sometimes frustrating release schedule. We could sit here until the End Times debating whether or not Marius should be included over other characters and get nowhere because we have different preferences. How to get around this, I have no idea. Marius is obviously the top of my list, after Boris since he's already in the game, but I'm by no means opposed to getting other characters because they each offer their own unique looks, quirks, and mechanics.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,377
    Just to add on a little more about Marius' story, I just found this after I posted the previous comment. Here's the link to the reddit page: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/7fgki5/marius_leitdorf_the_mad_count_of_averland_mod_lore/.

    But anyway I want to emphasize this piece of lore:


    Someone mentioned it early, and I didn't think much of it, but it adds a bit more to his character. ;)
  • GingerRoeBroGingerRoeBro Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,060

    Just to add on a little more about Marius' story, I just found this after I posted the previous comment. Here's the link to the reddit page: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/7fgki5/marius_leitdorf_the_mad_count_of_averland_mod_lore/.

    But anyway I want to emphasize this piece of lore:


    Someone mentioned it early, and I didn't think much of it, but it adds a bit more to his character. ;)

    Hey that is a great find and makes me so happy for monogods slaneesh, can you imagine his diplomacy dialogue with them? :lol:

    Just his diplomacy dialogue in general would be great.
    When you said that CA can only add so much to the game. I believe it, and that's why I'd like to have marius, he'd be perfect for my slaneesh monogods horde to attack first. And entirely due to his history with them.

    Plus, if the OP doesn't want marius, then who does he want and how is it any better than marius?
    Bigger Budget for game 3?

    They're gonna need it for all of the monogod glory.
    Which will be the "4 distinct gods representing the different aspects of Chaos such as Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle." :blush: ^CA quote

    Thank you CA for seeing them as what they truly are.
    Let the Games Begin!
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/The_Great_Game
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,182
    The Sword of Justice and Sword of Vengeance books are thankfully not canon, to the best of my understanding. They're okay, well, the first one is at least, but they didn't do it for me. Ugh, Helboring was in it.
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  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,804
    Why do you want Marius Leitdorf?
    The reasons have already been said for location and his madness but also that Marius is a 8th edition lord which puts him much higher chance of being added to to then game then previous editions, lore and forge world characters.

    But also that Marius start isn't right next to Franz in Reikland because Empire starts should be spread out in the Empire because the Empire shouldn't have to rely on Franz's neighbors for start positions which hampers any variety to the campaign that the start would add due to being right next to an Empire start position. Marius and even Helborg (Ostland o Sudenburg) can get starts that aren't right next to Reikland which is I personally ask for them.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,645

    @Sultschiem nordland would be better than Middenland. Wissenland would be better than averland.

    Him duel wielding amounts to very little when his competition includes an amethyst wizards with a dragon. An elector count with a proper Griffen. Helborg (who could be in sudenburg) or any of the others.

    Nordland is pretty bad too. You cannot expand north, you have to fight empire for 100 Turns until the Vampires come.

    Otherwhise you spend time sacking and razing norsca-settlements and then you spend the rest of the game defending against Norsca and Vampires.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 10,795
    He is an elector count. The more the better.

    And he is funny and awesome.

    I suspect he is not as crazy as people say. I think Marius plays a part sometimes. So they say:

    "Yes Marius burned the moot. Yeah he is crazy. Does what he wants. But a damm good fighter, strategist and loyal to the empire in his own way. He is a good elector count"

    And Marius uses that to get his way in the most absurd situations.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 10,795
    He is the combo of humour and blood. Like warhammer itself.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 4,576
    Ultimately to this I ask why do you want a small blurb from the army books that has virtually no personality written about him? Then basically tear into a character that has a far larger amount of established lore calling him no name? Or care that he's a bit of a nut, where was this rage with Harkon? And call people out for liking a character with infinitely more?

    From start it makes a hostile point of calling people out to justify their like of a character which has vastly more pages of lore and rules an area. Which would be what makes being an elector count important. There is a reason that most of them are that because of the structure of the empire. You're walking up to one of the most important people of the empire and asking why they matter.

    Pretty much this is in the vein of so many other threads. Not what you want, so you just try to cast shade and poke at folks that very much do want that one.
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 271
    Obviously, SeanJeanquoi is trolling us.
  • BaronRodneyBaronRodney Registered Users Posts: 968

    Obviously, SeanJeanquoi is trolling us.

    I don’t think he’s a troll. I do think his bedside manner could be significantly improved, though. I haven’t put forward my own thoughts because of this.
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,697
    I don't think you can ignore his starting position when discussing the benefit of any imperial LL.

    Lets ignore the player for a moment and just think of any new LL being AI controlled.

    Talabecland's count is in the middle of the Empire and wouldn't do much. Boris would be a little further north and the bonus for being playable means he would be better at keeping Norsca at bay and possibly create a middenland powerhouse in the northern Empire, which is cool.
    Though the Norscans already don't do too much to change the map, in my experience. Might raid a bit, take a coastal town...that's about it, the integrity of the realm remains.

    In the east though, both Von Carsteins and Vampire Counts are playable factions with easy imperial pickings around them. A playable imperial faction there could do much to keep them back. Not only that, but to keep Skarsnik back in his mountains and stop any potential greenskin incursion from the south as the Dwarfs are usually rather defensive and won't be able to hold Blackfire Pass.

    As such, a playble Marius would to me make much more difference to the overall campaign and the Empire as a whole.

    If you play him, the starting position is different as well.
    Boris and Karl both have nearby Bretonnians, Norscans and fellow Imperials.
    Marius would mostly contend with Vampires, Greenskins and even Dwarfs, however, giving a different type of fighting.
    Just based on that, he'd be worthy of the choice for an LL.

    But he's also funny, being a more light-hearted (not to mention good-hearted) Harkon who brings quirkiness and randomness to the fore. (which is an Empire trait for sure) With Boris you get such a known quantity, with Marius we would get something much more new and different. :)
    Don't worry.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,143
    Reghis said:

    1. He is/was a member of the elector count
    2. (my opinion) he is kinda iconic/important in the history of the Empire
    3. and the most important reason: his starting position would be in Averland which means, he would perfectly tank the early expansion of Vlad/ Manfred because they are out of control right now

    I like letting the vampire counts expand because they’re the easiest faction to crush later. Dawi and Greenskins are much tougher foe
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 1,970
    Canuovea said:

    The Sword of Justice and Sword of Vengeance books are thankfully not canon, to the best of my understanding. They're okay, well, the first one is at least, but they didn't do it for me. Ugh, Helboring was in it.

    I had my suspicions when you said you liked elves in another thread but this comment is the proof!
    You are a heretic! There is no way a good and faithful man would not like these two books and especially Kurt Helborg in it!
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 6,280
    The stereotypical mad genius? He's a literary trope, tropes are widespread because people like them. That's all.
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