Warhammer 3 legendary lords overview: Greasus Goldtooth

Bies#4376

"Today the Orcs, tomorrow the world. Let them all tremble!..."

—Greasus Goldtooth, after the Battle of the Firemouth.

Tennisgolfboll#5877

So cool special rules. Love the 2nd art picture.

RikRiorik#9890

Quite possibly the first LL of TWW3 to be played.

Gerardofthetitan

My least favorite Ogre Legendary Lord. Much better Bragg, Skrag, Golgfag and the other one...the armored one with the Rhinox mount.

eomat#7953

Thorgrims rival.

#326161

I could picture this LL in Warhammer 3, but it definitely does not need to be carried around like Thorgrim Grudgebearer.
Even though the mount or situation itself is noteworthy, it does not make sense going to battle like that.
He just needs to be walking around with some hobgoblins is fine, like Skarsnik has his Squig and from there have some Mounts.
If this can't be the case, the other Lords are much more interesting.

Bloodydagger#9716

Grimgor kills him.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

The Mini doesn't show it but Greasus is an utterly huge Ogre. Hopefully CA reflects that when they make him.

Tennisgolfboll#5877

RikRiorik said:

Quite possibly the first LL of TWW3 to be played.

Hoping Braugh makes it in. Probably him or Golgfag first playthrough

mightygloin#2446

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

The Mini doesn't show it but Greasus is an utterly huge Ogre. Hopefully CA reflects that when they make him.

I'd say don't keep your hopes up since the very same could be said for Kholek and Grimgor.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

Kelefane said:

Grimgor kills him.

Only thanks to Grimgor cheating and wearing huge amounts of plot armour.

CaesarSahlertz

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

Kelefane said:

Grimgor kills him.

Only thanks to Grimgor cheating and wearing huge amounts of plot armour.

Grimgor simply being the better and stronger fighter is not plot armour... It is simple fact..

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Ninjipples#4797

CaesarSahlertz said:

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

Kelefane said:

Grimgor kills him.

Only thanks to Grimgor cheating and wearing huge amounts of plot armour.

Grimgor simply being the better and stronger fighter is not plot armour... It is simple fact..

I always found Grimgor to have copious amounts of plot armor compared to his TT stats/rules. He was actually fairly easy to take down with most other melee Special Character Lords.

Queek was in a very similar boat (I still used him though because I loved his buffed Stormvermin)

saweendra#3399

Ninjipples said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

Kelefane said:

Grimgor kills him.

Only thanks to Grimgor cheating and wearing huge amounts of plot armour.

Grimgor simply being the better and stronger fighter is not plot armour... It is simple fact..

I always found Grimgor to have copious amounts of plot armor compared to his TT stats/rules. He was actually fairly easy to take down with most other melee Special Character Lords.

Queek was in a very similar boat (I still used him though because I loved his buffed Stormvermin)

love grimgr i never thought gw did fair job to gimgor made him look like a idiot. he should be the baddest meanest but smart and disciplined as well. i wish they make grimgor into a separate faction one truly separate greater than rest of green skin filth.
never cared about skaven. i don't even let my dinos eat them campaign just as bad as undead. i want my dinos healthy

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Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

CaesarSahlertz said:

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

Kelefane said:

Grimgor kills him.

Only thanks to Grimgor cheating and wearing huge amounts of plot armour.

Grimgor simply being the better and stronger fighter is not plot armour... It is simple fact..

Except it's not.

Greasus is huge, Grimgor is big for an Orc but small relative to Greasus. Greasus hugged an Orc Warlord to death, he could certainly swat Grimgor away.

MShauny

Not show on the picture but his weapon gives him S(trength)10+multiple wound (D3) in close combat.

Basicaly a slightly weaker version of Ghal-Maraz.

Dedicated to the uninitiated: You can not go above S10 in warhammer 8ed, It means that the amount of Str is so tremendous that almost (almost almost) everything has a proba of 5/6 to be successfully wounded (6/6 for Ghal-Maraz) in addition, it makes any armour ineffective, only magical protection or regeneration of some kind can stop the blow.

As for multiple wound (D3) it is pretty straightforward : 1 wound can potentially be critical and one-shot character or inflict severe damage to big creatures.

AENARlON

I never really 'got' the concept for this character. He's basically a big blob that can't even bear his own weight, yet somehow he's also an elite duelist (in TT rules).

I know you shouldn't expect logical in WH, but you hope they at least follow the rule of cool. And it's not cool having Jar-Jar running circles around jedi masters. Just think about the optics.

Draculasaurus

rymeintrinseca said:

I never really 'got' the concept for this character. He's basically a big blob that can't even bear his own weight, yet somehow he's also an elite duelist (in TT rules).

I know you shouldn't expect logical in WH, but you hope they at least follow the rule of cool. And it's not cool having Jar-Jar running circles around jedi masters. Just think about the optics.

His stat-line might make him a melee monster, but his special rules from the TT make him much more of a support lord, buffing his own troops and debuffing enemy troops.

If you look at the potential ogre LLs there are a lot of options for strong duelists and infantry blenders. Golgfag, Ghark, even Bragg, though I doubt he'll actually be a LL. Braugh and Skrag would both be caster lords, though being ogres both would probably still be decent in melee. With that line up there is an empty niche for a non-caster support lord and Greasus fits neatly into it.

As for his "mount", my guess is CA might make him more of a tank. Sit him in a blob of your infantry where he provides auras and abilities than improve their abilities and penalize the enemy's, all while his big fat bulk absorbs blow after blow. That way it doesn't matter if he's slow as hell. The fluff on his enchanted mace always gives him the option for him to unexpectedly lurch up out of his seat as well; it gives him the strength of a Skytitan and that's more than enough strength to move his ponderous mass about.

Still, for added utility I could also see them giving him a second mount option, where he trades in his Gnoblar palanquin for a kingly platform built onto the back of a thundertusk or stonehorn. That way he could move around a bit more quickly, deal a bit more damage, and cause a lot of disruption, sort of a non-magical Mazdamundi on Zlaaq.

AENARlON

^ Yeah, I know he gives nice buffs/debuffs. That's how it should be. But in TT he has that and is an elite soloist. Once you account for his magic items he has WS6 S10 T6 W6 A3 Ld9, 4+ ward and D3 wounds per hit. With the screwy way the to-hit chart works (e.g. WS10 only hits WS6 on a 4+) this is a bloodthirster/Tyrion level statline.

Draculasaurus

rymeintrinseca said:

^ Yeah, I know he gives nice buffs/debuffs. That's how it should be. But in TT he has that and is an elite soloist. Once you account for his magic items he has WS6 S10 T6 W6 A3 Ld9, 4+ ward and D3 wounds per hit. With the screwy way the to-hit chart works (e.g. WS10 only hits WS6 on a 4+) this is a bloodthirster/Tyrion level statline.

Eh, the fluff about his scepter/mace is enough for me to buy it. He's a lazy fatass who's rich enough that he doesn't need to get up unless he wants to, and likes to remind people of the fact by getting carried everywhere. But if he does need to get up he's got a magic scepter that makes him strong enough to squeeze a black orc warboss into jelly with his bare hands.

Ninjipples#4797

rymeintrinseca said:

^ Yeah, I know he gives nice buffs/debuffs. That's how it should be. But in TT he has that and is an elite soloist. Once you account for his magic items he has WS6 S10 T6 W6 A3 Ld9, 4+ ward and D3 wounds per hit. With the screwy way the to-hit chart works (e.g. WS10 only hits WS6 on a 4+) this is a bloodthirster/Tyrion level statline.

Sorry to butt in here but he'd hit on a 3+. The way it works is you hit anything with lower WS than yourself on a 3+, anything with equal right up to double your WS on a 4+, and anything above double your WS on a 5+ (so a WS4 soldier hits anything with WS3 or less on a 3+, hits anything with WS4-WS8 on 4+, and anything with WS9-WS10 on a 5+)

Wounding is a little different, you wound on a 4+ if your S is the same as your targets T, if their T is 1 point higher then you wound on a 5+, if the T is 2 points higher or more then you wound on a 6+ (basically it's harder to wound tougher targets) on the flip side if their T is 1 point lower than your S then you wound on a 3+, if the T is 2 points lower or less then you wound on a 2+ (so a S4 soldier wounds on a 2+ against anything T1-T2, on a 3+ against T3, 4+ against T4, 5+ against T5 and 6+ against anything T6-T10).

For Goldtooth; he has WS6 so he'd hit anything with WS5 or less on a 3+ and everything else on a 4+ (barring special rules or magic items), he then has S10 so he'd wound anything T1-T8 on a 2+, T9 on a 3+ and T10 on a 4+. Almost nothing in the TT was T7 or above so he was almost always wounding on 2+.

yolordmcswag#6132

rymeintrinseca said:

^ Yeah, I know he gives nice buffs/debuffs. That's how it should be. But in TT he has that and is an elite soloist. Once you account for his magic items he has WS6 S10 T6 W6 A3 Ld9, 4+ ward and D3 wounds per hit. With the screwy way the to-hit chart works (e.g. WS10 only hits WS6 on a 4+) this is a bloodthirster/Tyrion level statline.

I don't really think he's that great a fighter, 3 attacks with no rerolls is very limiting. Sure it works well against enemy heroes and monsters, but against a unit he is very inefective with only 3 attacks, while Tyrion has 4(+breath weapon) and a bloodthirster has 6. Both of those also have rerolls, so Greasus doesn't really compete with the best of them. In a duel he is better off, propably beating most others mainly due to having 6 wounds and therefore being able to survive much more damage.

AENARlON

Ninjipples said:

rymeintrinseca said:

^ Yeah, I know he gives nice buffs/debuffs. That's how it should be. But in TT he has that and is an elite soloist. Once you account for his magic items he has WS6 S10 T6 W6 A3 Ld9, 4+ ward and D3 wounds per hit. With the screwy way the to-hit chart works (e.g. WS10 only hits WS6 on a 4+) this is a bloodthirster/Tyrion level statline.

Sorry to butt in here but he'd hit on a 3+. The way it works is you hit anything with lower WS than yourself on a 3+, anything with equal right up to double your WS on a 4+, and anything above double your WS on a 5+ (so a WS4 soldier hits anything with WS3 or less on a 3+, hits anything with WS4-WS8 on 4+, and anything with WS9-WS10 on a 5+)

Wounding is a little different, you wound on a 4+ if your S is the same as your targets T, if their T is 1 point higher then you wound on a 5+, if the T is 2 points higher or more then you wound on a 6+ (basically it's harder to wound tougher targets) on the flip side if their T is 1 point lower than your S then you wound on a 3+, if the T is 2 points lower or less then you wound on a 2+ (so a S4 soldier wounds on a 2+ against anything T1-T2, on a 3+ against T3, 4+ against T4, 5+ against T5 and 6+ against anything T6-T10).

For Goldtooth; he has WS6 so he'd hit anything with WS5 or less on a 3+ and everything else on a 4+ (barring special rules or magic items), he then has S10 so he'd wound anything T1-T8 on a 2+, T9 on a 3+ and T10 on a 4+. Almost nothing in the TT was T7 or above so he was almost always wounding on 2+.

Thanks, I should have said WS6 hits WS10 on a 4+. The point still stands that the difference between WS 6 and 10 sounds massive but is actually pretty small - the only advantage of the WS10 is that 3+ to hit, which is not enough to outweigh Greasus's S10, D3 wound weapon, decent toughness, huge wound pool, high ward, etc. Mathematically I believe he will usually beat Skarbrand or anyone else you throw at him 1 v 1 in 8th ed.

I'm hoping that they translate things literally to TW, where it's actually a big disadvantage having only 60% of your opponent's MA and MD (the equivalent of WS), as it should be.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

So you're saying Greasus should be the strongest lord in TWW in 1 vs 1. I like that idea.

Ninjipples#4797

rymeintrinseca said:

I'm hoping that they translate things literally to TW, where it's actually a big disadvantage having only 60% of your opponent's MA and MD (the equivalent of WS), as it should be.

I think that sadly it's too late to start doing that now (at least is is if they want it to be fair). If they do it should be like that for all LLs, which it isn't.

An example I've used in other threads is Ungrim compared to Tyrion. On TT they have almost identical stats (Tyrion has twice Ungrims Initiative and Ungrim has twice Tyrions Toughness) and they have the same Armour and Ward Saves and yet Tyrion has way better defensive stats.

While I'm all for making him strong, things are so out of whack now that he needs to be balanced to other existing LLs. Otherwise we'll continue the trend of constantly having to deal with power creep.

yolordmcswag#6132

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

So you're saying Greasus should be the strongest lord in TWW in 1 vs 1. I like that idea.

Except that... it really would not represent either his rules or lore. There are many characters who have the "greatest warrior" label (Tyrion, Grimgor, Archaon etc.) as everyone is strongest in their own armybook, but Greasus doesn't even have that... He's a mediocre fighter with a great weapon, just like Karl Franz... In fact Karl Franz is better at killing things, Greasus would only win due to his number of wounds, but there are other montsrous characters with the same advantage (Greater Demons, Kholek, Durthu etc) who also deal equally much or more damage than Greasus, even in a duel.

Making him the greatest warrior would also not make sense from a balance point of wiev, if he also has good support abilities. Just like was said in the thread about Hellebron, the strongest characters are made weaker and the strongest stronger, so that they are at least more balanced compared to each other than in TT.

Tennisgolfboll#5877

Greasus would have been massacred by many characters in 8th edition (thorgrim etc)

Draculasaurus

Greasus is fine as tank/support. Ghark and Golgfag are the guys to pick if you want to massacre infantry or kill enemy lords/heroes.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

yolordmcswag said:

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

So you're saying Greasus should be the strongest lord in TWW in 1 vs 1. I like that idea.

Except that... it really would not represent either his rules or lore. There are many characters who have the "greatest warrior" label (Tyrion, Grimgor, Archaon etc.) as everyone is strongest in their own armybook, but Greasus doesn't even have that... He's a mediocre fighter with a great weapon, just like Karl Franz... In fact Karl Franz is better at killing things, Greasus would only win due to his number of wounds, but there are other montsrous characters with the same advantage (Greater Demons, Kholek, Durthu etc) who also deal equally much or more damage than Greasus, even in a duel.

Making him the greatest warrior would also not make sense from a balance point of wiev, if he also has good support abilities. Just like was said in the thread about Hellebron, the strongest characters are made weaker and the strongest stronger, so that they are at least more balanced compared to each other than in TT.

Eh, if he's the best on the TT then he's the best.

Balance wise he's going to be an expensive lord, as he should be. So he's got to be good. On a serious note though I see him as an infantry blender and support lord. Still, I expect him to be expensive and worth the cost.