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On Healing and Single Model Units

FrookFrook Posts: 127Registered Users
I think vast majority of the community agrees that healing spells are too strong on single model units and sometimes downright abusive, as well as low model cavalry that benefit from it disproportionately. It is especially obvious on Vampire Counts and Vampire Coast but also to a lesser degree with High Elves and Empire.

However I don't think anyone has expressed any problem with healing on lower tier troops, and indeed it seems to be an essential part of army compositions of Vampires, High Elves and Empire. The problem here is then not healing in general but healing specifically on high value units that are able to soak damage. An easy, general solution that affects both Vampires and regular healing and properly address the problem of healing on low model count units without making it completely useless on lower tier troops is I think changing of how the heal mechanic works on the ground. This could also affect Tomb Kings and help their battle ability a bit as it is currently a bit underwhelming without making their single model monsters too powerful.

For this I would suggest all healing spells should work on a per model basis instead of a total spread over models. That is, healing should heal every model for a specific and much lower amount that would then lead to a total heal over the unit. This would mean that healing would be more effective on units with more models while being almost completely ineffectual on single model units. Now you might say then what will the single model units do? Well for that we can keep spells like apotheosis, regrowth, immortal will (vampire heroes) and blood chalice (Isabella) amongst others which would heal only single models but for a great amount, making them effective on single model units but ineffectual on multiple models. It would also make passives like the hunger more valuable.

This way healing can be balanced individually and exclusively on multiple models and single model units without making it completely underwhelming on one or another. It would also not kill the character of Vampire Counts and High Elves especially.
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Comments

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,641Registered Users
    edited March 14
    nobody is gonna bring lore of Life to heal White Lions sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable. I guess that "vast majority of the community" that agrees with the OP would like to see lore of Life become useless, why bring it when I can bring a debuff spell instead if I can't hit cavalry/SEMs with it.
  • FrookFrook Posts: 127Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    nobody is gonna bring lore of Life to heal White Lions sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable. I guess that "vast majority of the community" that agrees with the OP would like to see lore of Life become useless, why bring it when I can bring a debuff spell instead if I can't hit cavalry/SEMs with it.

    You would hit SEMs with apotheosis and regrowth. Heal still would work on cavalry, including the star but not as effective.

    If a change is made this way, then perhaps it would be viable to actually bring lore of life to heal white lions, because while a total of 600 or so healing spread on a unit of white lions is not very useful, healing each model for 20 could be for example, especially when all models are alive and fighting.
  • FossowayFossoway Posts: 1,822Registered Users
    Healing spells are really fair right now. Their sole purpose is to keep strong, small entity units alive (so single monsters or elite squads of units). It's not like the heal is instant, or can be done forever. Heck, even the amount healed is not that much, but it's just enough to keep a unit alive.

    No offense, but your suggestion would nerf healing to oblivion.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,601Registered Users
    edited March 14
    yeah i can imagine super expensive cav like DP and GK almost extinct if you can't heal them well. Becasue they dropping models like flies.

    I agree than healing on single enteties feels toos trong thou (Star Dragon, Terrorgheist.) But i would like to see another solution to this porblem, not yet another solution with big collateral dmg.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 2,698Registered Users

    yeah i can imagine super expensive cav like DP and GK almost extinct if you can't heal them well. Becasue they dropping models like flies.

    I agree than healing on single enteties feels toos trong thou (Star Dragon, Terrorgheist.) But i would like to see another solution to this porblem, not yet another solution with big collateral dmg.

    Yes, it's important to only nerf other people's units.
  • FossowayFossoway Posts: 1,822Registered Users

    yeah i can imagine super expensive cav like DP and GK almost extinct if you can't heal them well. Becasue they dropping models like flies.

    I agree than healing on single enteties feels toos trong thou (Star Dragon, Terrorgheist.) But i would like to see another solution to this porblem, not yet another solution with big collateral dmg.

    I don't think the problem lies with the healing itself in this case, but rather the single entity monsters. Those dragons, terrorgheists and other big ones are really powerful right now, so anything that keeps them alive longer is bound to make them even stronger.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,601Registered Users
    SE are far stronger than cav. becase elite cav with 45 like DP or GK etc drops models very fast. I don't get it what means nerf other people's units. How suddenly DP is "my unit"? xD
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,601Registered Users
    Fossoway said:

    yeah i can imagine super expensive cav like DP and GK almost extinct if you can't heal them well. Becasue they dropping models like flies.

    I agree than healing on single enteties feels toos trong thou (Star Dragon, Terrorgheist.) But i would like to see another solution to this porblem, not yet another solution with big collateral dmg.

    I don't think the problem lies with the healing itself in this case, but rather the single entity monsters. Those dragons, terrorgheists and other big ones are really powerful right now, so anything that keeps them alive longer is bound to make them even stronger.
    Yes and it's mainly cause they don't drop stats when they drop HP. I think theys hould indroduce it in game 3. This probably needs some cost adjustments and other rebalancing factors.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 2,698Registered Users
    Frook said:

    I think vast majority of the community agrees that healing spells are too strong on single model units and sometimes downright abusive, as well as low model cavalry that benefit from it disproportionately. It is especially obvious on Vampire Counts and Vampire Coast but also to a lesser degree with High Elves and Empire.

    However I don't think anyone has expressed any problem with healing on lower tier troops, and indeed it seems to be an essential part of army compositions of Vampires, High Elves and Empire. The problem here is then not healing in general but healing specifically on high value units that are able to soak damage. An easy, general solution that affects both Vampires and regular healing and properly address the problem of healing on low model count units without making it completely useless on lower tier troops is I think changing of how the heal mechanic works on the ground. This could also affect Tomb Kings and help their battle ability a bit as it is currently a bit underwhelming without making their single model monsters too powerful.

    For this I would suggest all healing spells should work on a per model basis instead of a total spread over models. That is, healing should heal every model for a specific and much lower amount that would then lead to a total heal over the unit. This would mean that healing would be more effective on units with more models while being almost completely ineffectual on single model units. Now you might say then what will the single model units do? Well for that we can keep spells like apotheosis, regrowth, immortal will (vampire heroes) and blood chalice (Isabella) amongst others which would heal only single models but for a great amount, making them effective on single model units but ineffectual on multiple models. It would also make passives like the hunger more valuable.

    This way healing can be balanced individually and exclusively on multiple models and single model units without making it completely underwhelming on one or another. It would also not kill the character of Vampire Counts and High Elves especially.

    Boiled down, you'd like to nerf Earth blood, nehek and star then. Of these I think Star will get some kind of nerf regardless next patch, and nehek is aeons more OP than earth blood is so I hope that get's a nerf too. Who knows, maybe another second to duration? :tongue:

    The essence of the OP is not bad though, I wouldn't mind something along these lines for game 3 at all. I am more skeptical about doing something like that now because it would throw both faction balance and roster internal balance out the window.
  • FrookFrook Posts: 127Registered Users
    I don't see how with proper number balancing it would be any nerf on normal units, including cavalry. It would be possible to heal cap them with 2-3 heals if it healed something like 20 per model (That's about a third of most infantry model's HP and about a fifth of cavalry) but it would be almost completely ineffectual on single models. You could then use spells like apotheosis and regrowth to heal single model units without the ability to heal like 2 dragons and a hero with same heal.

    It's not a nerf to healing, it's a reshuffling of roles of particular healing spells so that single target heals are good on single target and aoe heals are good at mass of units. The most obvious nerf is to single models because they can no longer be group healed together with both earthblood and regrowth for example. It would also keep Vampire chaff as meatshields while removing their ability to keep their terrorgheists alive all game even under focus fire.
  • ReymReym Posts: 385Registered Users
    Frook said:

    I don't see how with proper number balancing it would be any nerf on normal units, including cavalry. It would be possible to heal cap them with 2-3 heals if it healed something like 20 per model (That's about a third of most infantry model's HP and about a fifth of cavalry) but it would be almost completely ineffectual on single models. You could then use spells like apotheosis and regrowth to heal single model units without the ability to heal like 2 dragons and a hero with same heal.

    It's not a nerf to healing, it's a reshuffling of roles of particular healing spells so that single target heals are good on single target and aoe heals are good at mass of units. The most obvious nerf is to single models because they can no longer be group healed together with both earthblood and regrowth for example. It would also keep Vampire chaff as meatshields while removing their ability to keep their terrorgheists alive all game even under focus fire.

    20 hp per model ? Have you throw this number randomly or have you done a bit of math before ?
    Because 20*75= 1500
    20*90= 1800
    45*20= 900

    Noob boxes, Death stars and other defensive stuff everywhere. Great an infantry meta probably the last thing this game needs :D

    Anyway let's forget this you probably did not realized it when typing.

    But even big numbers aside nerfing indirectly cav units and SEM to promote infantry lines with a lot of shooting everywhere seems not enjoyable at all.
    Currently the infantry isn't doing bad by any means all they need is to look to those SEM's animations who prevent infantry from hitting them and cycle charge being to easy to do/or again the SEM not receiving enough damages during the operation of cycle charging.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,641Registered Users
    edited March 14
    healing Star Dragons is the only thing that gives you a chance e.g. in HE vs Brets. I assume OP wants to give HE OP cavalry to compensate for the nerfs to SEMs?

    Or does he genuinely expect someone to spend 2400g for 80 armor and some 7000 pathetic HP pool.

    Even then, until Invocation of Nehek is in the game as is, no berfs to EB: You wanna address the biggest offender first after all (and incidentally the one that has least counterplay too since it resurrects models).
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,082Registered Users
    Nerf it, make it less powerfull, on units its ok, on SE its a bit broken imo


  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,082Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    healing Star Dragons is the only thing that gives you a chance e.g. in HE vs Brets. I assume OP wants to give HE OP cavalry to compensate for the nerfs to SEMs?

    Or does he genuinely expect someone to spend 2400g for 80 armor and some 7000 pathetic HP pool.

    Even then, until Invocation of Nehek is in the game as is, no berfs to EB: You wanna address the biggest offender first after all (and incidentally the one that has least counterplay too since it resurrects models).

    Haha pathetic 7000 HP, on a flying unit with extremely good combat stats, amazing WS and 3 Breath attacks... yeah


  • FrookFrook Posts: 127Registered Users
    edited March 14
    Reym said:




    Anyway let's forget this you probably did not realized it when typing.

    But even big numbers aside nerfing indirectly cav units and SEM to promote infantry lines with a lot of shooting everywhere seems not enjoyable at all.
    Currently the infantry isn't doing bad by any means all they need is to look to those SEM's animations who prevent infantry from hitting them and cycle charge being to easy to do/or again the SEM not receiving enough damages during the operation of cycle charging.

    I just used a random number to highlight to fact how powerful it could be on regular units so that it is not a general nerf to healing but on single model units in particular, while having relatively decent effect on cavalry as well. It would also be compensated with a bit better single target healing too. You should also consider that models at full HP and dead models would not be healed so even with a number like 20 you wouldn't be getting that much mileage out of it, cavalry would definitely still benefit better due higher HP models.

    Currently with factions that use single model monsters and healing, it entirely comes down to how these units are played. So yes, I would like a bit more variety where we can use normal units as well instead having the entire battle revolve around 2 dragons or terrorgheists. Strong healing combined with the fact that a single model unit is as effective at 1% hp as it is at 100% means that with just few invocations of nehek or earthblood and regrowth thrown their way these units stay in the battle from start to finish at essentially full strength even when focus fired.

    Now I don't think that would be a problem in itself, if you bring heals to heal them and pay for them it is fair enough. The problem is the fact you can group these units with regular infantry and heroes then heal them altogether for a meagar mana cost, getting extreme value out of it for no reason whatsoever. If earthblood and IoN are supposed to be as powerful on single target units as they are on groups of units (and indeed more powerful) then why do we have things like regrowth and apotheosis for example?

    It's also a definitely factor that these units with healing backing them are overperforming, wouldn't it be better that if say one is playing HE they are able to bring white lions and swordsmaster because they work good with heal, instead of just dragon princes and dragons? Not that the latter would be weak either but they would depend on different heals and tactics. I also think terrorgheists and lords in VC roster are overperforming but I don't think their heals should be completely gutted because it is too good on single model units, which would make them entirely useless lower tier troops for no reason whatsoever. It would also make vampire heroes see more play for example. It's also the theme of that faction to heal their lower tier troops but the heals are more effective on single models, which is not the case in tabletop as far as I am aware.

    So what I want here is variety and addressing the reality of asymmetric power of healing.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,641Registered Users
    edited March 14
    Kranox said:

    Green0 said:

    healing Star Dragons is the only thing that gives you a chance e.g. in HE vs Brets. I assume OP wants to give HE OP cavalry to compensate for the nerfs to SEMs?

    Or does he genuinely expect someone to spend 2400g for 80 armor and some 7000 pathetic HP pool.

    Even then, until Invocation of Nehek is in the game as is, no berfs to EB: You wanna address the biggest offender first after all (and incidentally the one that has least counterplay too since it resurrects models).

    Haha pathetic 7000 HP, on a flying unit with extremely good combat stats, amazing WS and 3 Breath attacks... yeah
    yes when you account for the fact that it costs 2400g while factions like Norsca get 11000 HP on their Mammoths, you can confidently say that Star Dragons were balanced with healing in mind.

    Edit: actually I just checked it's 6300 HP for 2400g lol, do people even play healing factions before making these threads? Have you tried to see how much damage 2 Handgunners volleys do to a Star Dragon?
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,649Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Kranox said:

    Green0 said:

    healing Star Dragons is the only thing that gives you a chance e.g. in HE vs Brets. I assume OP wants to give HE OP cavalry to compensate for the nerfs to SEMs?

    Or does he genuinely expect someone to spend 2400g for 80 armor and some 7000 pathetic HP pool.

    Even then, until Invocation of Nehek is in the game as is, no berfs to EB: You wanna address the biggest offender first after all (and incidentally the one that has least counterplay too since it resurrects models).

    Haha pathetic 7000 HP, on a flying unit with extremely good combat stats, amazing WS and 3 Breath attacks... yeah
    yes when you account for the fact that it costs 2400g while factions like Norsca get 11000 HP on their Mammoths, you can confidently say that Star Dragons were balanced with healing in mind.

    Edit: actually I just checked it's 6300 HP for 2400g lol, do people even play healing factions before making these threads? Have you tried to see how much damage 2 Handgunners volleys do to a Star Dragon?
    Mammoths that falter like a sack of leaves under concentrated fire while dragons can dodge around projectiles and don't have to expose themselves to ground troops when they don't want to.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,641Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    Kranox said:

    Green0 said:

    healing Star Dragons is the only thing that gives you a chance e.g. in HE vs Brets. I assume OP wants to give HE OP cavalry to compensate for the nerfs to SEMs?

    Or does he genuinely expect someone to spend 2400g for 80 armor and some 7000 pathetic HP pool.

    Even then, until Invocation of Nehek is in the game as is, no berfs to EB: You wanna address the biggest offender first after all (and incidentally the one that has least counterplay too since it resurrects models).

    Haha pathetic 7000 HP, on a flying unit with extremely good combat stats, amazing WS and 3 Breath attacks... yeah
    yes when you account for the fact that it costs 2400g while factions like Norsca get 11000 HP on their Mammoths, you can confidently say that Star Dragons were balanced with healing in mind.

    Edit: actually I just checked it's 6300 HP for 2400g lol, do people even play healing factions before making these threads? Have you tried to see how much damage 2 Handgunners volleys do to a Star Dragon?
    Mammoths that falter like a sack of leaves under concentrated fire while dragons can dodge around projectiles and don't have to expose themselves to ground troops when they don't want to.
    Try playing a Dragon then you'll see that 2x Handgunners shooting 2 volleys take down 40% HP.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,649Registered Users
    edited March 14
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Kranox said:

    Green0 said:

    healing Star Dragons is the only thing that gives you a chance e.g. in HE vs Brets. I assume OP wants to give HE OP cavalry to compensate for the nerfs to SEMs?

    Or does he genuinely expect someone to spend 2400g for 80 armor and some 7000 pathetic HP pool.

    Even then, until Invocation of Nehek is in the game as is, no berfs to EB: You wanna address the biggest offender first after all (and incidentally the one that has least counterplay too since it resurrects models).

    Haha pathetic 7000 HP, on a flying unit with extremely good combat stats, amazing WS and 3 Breath attacks... yeah
    yes when you account for the fact that it costs 2400g while factions like Norsca get 11000 HP on their Mammoths, you can confidently say that Star Dragons were balanced with healing in mind.

    Edit: actually I just checked it's 6300 HP for 2400g lol, do people even play healing factions before making these threads? Have you tried to see how much damage 2 Handgunners volleys do to a Star Dragon?
    Mammoths that falter like a sack of leaves under concentrated fire while dragons can dodge around projectiles and don't have to expose themselves to ground troops when they don't want to.
    Try playing a Dragon then you'll see that 2x Handgunners shooting 2 volleys take down 40% HP.
    Try playing Norsca and go Mammoth heavy. There's a reason they are almost never brought whereas Dragons are a staple HE unit. O yeah, and HE have a bazillion tools to deal with muskets, too.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,641Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Kranox said:

    Green0 said:

    healing Star Dragons is the only thing that gives you a chance e.g. in HE vs Brets. I assume OP wants to give HE OP cavalry to compensate for the nerfs to SEMs?

    Or does he genuinely expect someone to spend 2400g for 80 armor and some 7000 pathetic HP pool.

    Even then, until Invocation of Nehek is in the game as is, no berfs to EB: You wanna address the biggest offender first after all (and incidentally the one that has least counterplay too since it resurrects models).

    Haha pathetic 7000 HP, on a flying unit with extremely good combat stats, amazing WS and 3 Breath attacks... yeah
    yes when you account for the fact that it costs 2400g while factions like Norsca get 11000 HP on their Mammoths, you can confidently say that Star Dragons were balanced with healing in mind.

    Edit: actually I just checked it's 6300 HP for 2400g lol, do people even play healing factions before making these threads? Have you tried to see how much damage 2 Handgunners volleys do to a Star Dragon?
    Mammoths that falter like a sack of leaves under concentrated fire while dragons can dodge around projectiles and don't have to expose themselves to ground troops when they don't want to.
    Try playing a Dragon then you'll see that 2x Handgunners shooting 2 volleys take down 40% HP.
    Try playing Norsca and go Mammoth heavy. There's a reason they are almost never brought whereas Dragons are a staple HE unit. O yeah, and HE have a bazillion tools to deal with muskets, too.
    I tried double Mammoth is very strong especially since even if only 1 gets in melee it murders infantry. On top of that while HE have only Dragons and Phoenixes as monsters which require more or less the same counters, from Norsca you normally expect Fimirs which are a bit OP so when you see Mammoths and you didn't prepare for them/expect them they win the game on their own. Analogous for Frost Wyrm it's like a mini Dragon with frostbite added on top for utility.
  • Gilgamesh1Gilgamesh1 Posts: 583Registered Users
    I agree that healing on SE is not completely fine but i don't think it's particularly broken. It's just a no brainer/safer solution. The problem is that some factions lack the nuke potential to deal with fast /armored SE and healing to rekover mistakes.
    For example BM does not have super hard time with LM or CHaos Despite them having strong SE, but they have problem with all undead faction and dragon heavy+star of avelorn,because they have not a huge damage dealer anti large and the closest thing (Gorebull) is utterly ridicolous atm with his mass. A similar problem can be seen with GS

    That said,is not a problem of healing but a problem of certain faction lacking tool that they should have (spear chukka,Ghorgon)

    Only healing that is clearly OP in my opinion is ION and Star of avelorn,but EB and regrowth are not in a terrible spot imo
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 636Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Kranox said:

    Green0 said:

    healing Star Dragons is the only thing that gives you a chance e.g. in HE vs Brets. I assume OP wants to give HE OP cavalry to compensate for the nerfs to SEMs?

    Or does he genuinely expect someone to spend 2400g for 80 armor and some 7000 pathetic HP pool.

    Even then, until Invocation of Nehek is in the game as is, no berfs to EB: You wanna address the biggest offender first after all (and incidentally the one that has least counterplay too since it resurrects models).

    Haha pathetic 7000 HP, on a flying unit with extremely good combat stats, amazing WS and 3 Breath attacks... yeah
    yes when you account for the fact that it costs 2400g while factions like Norsca get 11000 HP on their Mammoths, you can confidently say that Star Dragons were balanced with healing in mind.

    Edit: actually I just checked it's 6300 HP for 2400g lol, do people even play healing factions before making these threads? Have you tried to see how much damage 2 Handgunners volleys do to a Star Dragon?
    Lol you're calling people out for not knowing Star Dragon hp exactly after making the original comment about them having 7000 hp?

    Also, not really sure what the damage a star dragon takes from Handgunners has to do with the Bretonnia match up......
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,641Registered Users

    I agree that healing on SE is not completely fine but i don't think it's particularly broken. It's just a no brainer/safer solution. The problem is that some factions lack the nuke potential to deal with fast /armored SE and healing to rekover mistakes.
    For example BM does not have super hard time with LM or CHaos Despite them having strong SE, but they have problem with all undead faction and dragon heavy+star of avelorn,because they have not a huge damage dealer anti large and the closest thing (Gorebull) is utterly ridicolous atm with his mass. A similar problem can be seen with GS

    That said,is not a problem of healing but a problem of certain faction lacking tool that they should have (spear chukka,Ghorgon)

    Only healing that is clearly OP in my opinion is ION and Star of avelorn,but EB and regrowth are not in a terrible spot imo

    I agree with this, I'll add that Star is very hard to balance because while vs say Beastmen I believe it's OP, I think vs a faction like say Bretonnia or even Norsca you actually need it to win. Try to play without Star vs a good Norsca player it's almost impossible to win as HE.
  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Posts: 446Registered Users
    Right now, healing spells give the same amount of healing no matter the model count. I think they need to use the model for direct damage spells which can be tweaked to suit a certain number of enemies. This would give the devs more control over what kinds of units a particular healing spell can be used on.
  • FrookFrook Posts: 127Registered Users
    Green0 said:



    I agree with this, I'll add that Star is very hard to balance because while vs say Beastmen I believe it's OP, I think vs a faction like say Bretonnia or even Norsca you actually need it to win. Try to play without Star vs a good Norsca player it's almost impossible to win as HE.

    So wouldn't it be good that if we could have healing that's good on regular units without being way over the top with SEM? I don't want lore of life to be useless, nor SoA and IoN to be nerfed to ground where they are only useful when casted on SEM and cavalry.

    If however the asymmetric effect of healing is not addressed these problems won't be solved. We could have strong AoE healing that works on infantry and cavalry while not making it completely game defining with SEM if we had healing that works on model basis rather than unit basis. You then can use regrowth and apotheosis to heal dragons for example, which could be rebalanced separately in light of earthblood and SaO not being as effective with SEM.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 632Registered Users
    AOE healing should be less effective on lower model units (kind of like FoB). Boom, problem solved, thank me later.

    In this instance, you could buff it for larger formations (say infantry), keep it roughly the same on cav, and nerf it into SEs. Why? Because things like regrowth are fine and don't need nerfs, however stuff like Nehek and Star, primarily AOE abilities used make a group of SE's take a ton of resources to bring down, would be hit.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,641Registered Users
    edited March 14
    Frook said:

    Green0 said:



    I agree with this, I'll add that Star is very hard to balance because while vs say Beastmen I believe it's OP, I think vs a faction like say Bretonnia or even Norsca you actually need it to win. Try to play without Star vs a good Norsca player it's almost impossible to win as HE.

    So wouldn't it be good that if we could have healing that's good on regular units without being way over the top with SEM? I don't want lore of life to be useless, nor SoA and IoN to be nerfed to ground where they are only useful when casted on SEM and cavalry.

    If however the asymmetric effect of healing is not addressed these problems won't be solved. We could have strong AoE healing that works on infantry and cavalry while not making it completely game defining with SEM if we had healing that works on model basis rather than unit basis. You then can use regrowth and apotheosis to heal dragons for example, which could be rebalanced separately in light of earthblood and SaO not being as effective with SEM.
    who the hell heals infantry in this game? It's either 45 model count cav unit or SE, those are the only 2 targets for Regrowth/EB. If something else happens to be in there whatever but it's not required.
  • FrookFrook Posts: 127Registered Users
    edited March 15
    Green0 said:


    who the hell heals infantry in this game? It's either 45 model count cav unit or SE, those are the only 2 targets for Regrowth/EB. If something else happens to be in there whatever but it's not required.

    I think you are failing to understand me. I am saying that nobody heals infantry and it is overperforming on cavalry and SEM, that is the problem. I am proposing a solution so that heal is good on infantry while not as over the top on SEM especially, while also separating AoE healing from single target healing as to differentiate them and give them identifiable roles. So IoN/EB would be good on masses of troops while Regrowth/Apotheosis would be good on SEM. After that they can be balanced on their own merits. All of this is done by a consistent rule that all healing is based on models, rather than units.

    Basically what is happening is I am telling you repeatedly no one uses heal on infantry and we should fix this and you respond to me by saying nobody is using heal on infantry. Well that's precisely what the original post is constructed to address.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 632Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    Green0 said:



    I agree with this, I'll add that Star is very hard to balance because while vs say Beastmen I believe it's OP, I think vs a faction like say Bretonnia or even Norsca you actually need it to win. Try to play without Star vs a good Norsca player it's almost impossible to win as HE.

    So wouldn't it be good that if we could have healing that's good on regular units without being way over the top with SEM? I don't want lore of life to be useless, nor SoA and IoN to be nerfed to ground where they are only useful when casted on SEM and cavalry.

    If however the asymmetric effect of healing is not addressed these problems won't be solved. We could have strong AoE healing that works on infantry and cavalry while not making it completely game defining with SEM if we had healing that works on model basis rather than unit basis. You then can use regrowth and apotheosis to heal dragons for example, which could be rebalanced separately in light of earthblood and SaO not being as effective with SEM.
    who the hell heals infantry in this game? It's either 45 model count cav unit or SE, those are the only 2 targets for Regrowth/EB. If something else happens to be in there whatever but it's not required.
    Pretty sure the point he is making is that he would rather have healing be better than multi-unit models like infantry than it is now. In exchange for losing some of its effectiveness on SE.

    Because you're right, aside from extremely niche circumstances healing is almost never used on infantry and its kind of a shame, because if it was better it would increase the durability of a lot of elite infantry.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,641Registered Users
    Frook said:

    Green0 said:


    who the hell heals infantry in this game? It's either 45 model count cav unit or SE, those are the only 2 targets for Regrowth/EB. If something else happens to be in there whatever but it's not required.

    I think you are failing to understand me. I am saying that nobody heals infantry and it is overperforming on cavalry and SEM, that is the problem. I am proposing a solution so that heal is good on infantry while not as over the top on SEM especially, while also separating AoE healing from single target healing as to differentiate them and give them identifiable roles. So IoN/EB would be good on masses of troops while Regrowth/Apotheosis would be good on SEM. After that they can be balanced on their own merits. All of this is done by a consistent rule that all healing is based on models, rather than units.

    Basically what is happening is I am telling you repeatedly no one uses heal on infantry and we should fix this and you respond to me by saying nobody is using heal on infantry. Well that's precisely what the original post is constructed to address.
    if you read again all my posts instead of reading here and there you'll see that at some point in this discussion I also mentioned that NOBODY will pick a 2400g monster with only 6300 HP.

    Regrowth is fine as is, Star on single entities could use tweaks but at the same time it's needed to balance out 2 otherwise very unfavorable matchups for HE which are Bretonnia and Norsca. Regrowth is very expensive in terms of mana, also regular cast heals only something like 1000 HP, overcast heals double of that and is very expensive mana-wise and also has a long cooldown. It also doesn't bring back models. EB heals a meager 300 HP for each unit, 600 on overcast, if that is what makes you lose games git gud my dude.

    Meanwhile, Nehek heals 1000 HP in a radius AND resurrects models.

    Healing is totally fine honestly except for VC.
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