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Chaos and Beastmen factions - They need to be overhauled a LOT

AltervisionAltervision Posts: 25Registered Users
It's almost 3 years since the release of TW Warhammer 1 and the Chaos faction, a preorder dlc for the game, hasn't received a single improvement except for the ROR. Everytime I start a campaign with the Chaos faction I feel like it misses a lot of things: it has a bad tech tree, standard movement stances, but cannot ambush, a very low number of buildings, no special mechanics or events, except for the battle with Sarthorael and also a bad starting position.
The same things are true also for the Beastmen, with some changes: movement stances are perfect and there are more events during the campaign, but there is a very low variation, so you end up with always the same choices. Yes, I would like to see the missing units, like the Ghorgon or the Jabb, but I would prefer to have an enjoyable campaign when I play. This was the first race dlc and contained the mini campaign that was really bad. The Wood Elves mini campaign was really cool and I enjoyed it a lot, but the Beastmen one is really annoying. You decided with Warhammer 2 to focus on Legendary Lords, more units and mechanics and it's a really smart move that I appreciate a lot. So I would really appreciate more these games if these two abandoned factions will receive some love in the next big update after the Lord Pack.

Thank you and sorry for my english.

Comments

  • WoesWoes Posts: 54Registered Users
    It is likely that Chaos recieves a revamp in Warhammer 3.

    Untill that; try overhaul mods like Grimhammer or Radious
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 12,111Registered Users
    edited March 16
    WoC have had more than RoR added, they've had a few new units as well.

    I'd prefer they get updated after the core races. Those should be priority. You do make a good point though; campaign is where these races are weakest. New units are great, but both their campaigns are bad because both are hordes. Hopefully with the coming of DoC CA find a way to make hordes or horde like races better and transfer that to WoC and BM.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Posts: 323Registered Users
    It would still be very unsatisfying because you'd end up fighting the same siege battles like every horde faction.
    I don't see them touching these factions for the next 2 years until WH3 is released and it gets it's FLC. Unless CA decide to release another major title like 3K around it's time and completely throw scheduling out the window.
  • RazmirthRazmirth Posts: 1,909Registered Users
    I imagine CA won’t touch either of them until game 3, since it’s been hinted heavily that it will be all focused on chaos. Would make sense to have all of those units, campign mechanic revamps etc show up then.

    I’d be happy if it came earlier. But my guess is probably not.
  • ErathilErathil Posts: 243Registered Users
    Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos both need some overhauls.

    They're really more annoyances on the campaign map. Beastmen are usually snuffed out by turn 50 or so, and then spontaneously reappear every now and then. Chaos are a danger, but only because they spawn with multiple full stacks, usually right on your doorstep.

    And for single-player campaign, their rosters are both sort of lacking. Warriors of Chaos have the heaviest, most elite infantry in the setting... but every time I see a WoC army, the only thing I really care about are Hellcannons. If they have those, then the army will be tough to deal with. If they don't, then it's nearly inconsequential. Their threat as a faction rests almost entirely on a single unit of artillery. Beastmen aren't much better... Cygors and Minotaurs are challenging, but Beastmen will be challenging you earlier in the campaign, and swarms of lesser units are more viable then.

    They both have terrible holes in their roster, and neither of them really work as is. I think the whole 'horde faction' thing needs to be reworked; it seems that they either have to raze half of the world or succumb to extinction. Personally, I think they'd work better with a more Greenskin model; horde functionality, but with some inhospitable home territory that can keep producing armies, or where their legendary lords can respawn if they're defeated.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Posts: 1,022Registered Users
    Something I would like to see for both: a transition from pure Horde to partial Horde, much like we have already seen with Norsca, the Vampire Coast, and to a lesser extent the Wood Elves.

    This largely seems to have been CA's answer to Horde gameplay being less than well received since its very first two DLCs for WHI. New factions are added that have Horde like attributes, but some ability to create settlements, however limited that maybe. I think this is partly to offset the standard Horde gameplay routine of "Recruit, raze, end turn, repeat." Another thing they've talked up a lot since WHII came out is their new move towards giving the player extra things to do during a turn than just fighting, diplomacy, or building. Crafting, influence, rituals, all were intended to give the player a little something to mess around with each turn. The WoC and the Beastmen did get some other mechanics, notably the ability to Awaken tribes and the Morrslieb events, but these were early attempts and better versions of them were created later.

    What sort of limited settlement options Beastmen or the WoC might get is a difficult question. For the Beastmen I'd perhaps like to see a sort of "hidden settlement" option, something that isn't well defended and has limited building options, but gives your armies somewhere to hide and recuperate when needed, and that enemies can hunt for. It would give their campaigns even more of a Hide-and-Seek quality, which I think seems appropriate.

    As for the Warriors Chaos, perhaps the ability to build settlements but only in very specific locations like the Brass Keep. These could be ritual centers, empowering some big ritual that the WoC plan to use to end the world, and that other armies could attempt to sabotage, delaying the ritual.
  • ReghisReghis Posts: 166Registered Users
    both should get their rework in game 3. right now we need an empire, greenskins and wood elves overhaul
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • Surge_2Surge_2 Posts: 1,516Registered Users
    Game 3 should rework both, to bring them up to the level we assume Daemons will be at.

    At this point, I would like.

    1. New content.
    2. Orcs and Empire updates.
    3. Game 3, with Chaos/Beastmen updates.
  • ReghisReghis Posts: 166Registered Users
    Surge_2 said:

    Game 3 should rework both, to bring them up to the level we assume Daemons will be at.

    At this point, I would like.

    1. New content.
    2. Orcs and Empire updates.
    3. Game 3, with Chaos/Beastmen updates.

    yep especially the missing units like Ghorgon, Jabber, Chimera should be added in game 3
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • FungusHoundFungusHound Posts: 1,382Registered Users
    Surge_2 said:

    Game 3 should rework both, to bring them up to the level we assume Daemons will be at.

    At this point, I would like.

    1. New content.
    2. Orcs and Empire updates.
    3. Game 3, with Chaos/Beastmen updates.

    We need some Herd Stone mechanics for the Beastmen. Seriously,we need semi-Horde mechanics for all the Horde Factions
  • RadiousRadious Senior Member Posts: 1,267Registered Users
    Try this guys, for many our players this is fresh air for Horde gameplay - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1672224407
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 4,302Registered Users
    edited March 17
    I’ve got a fever. And the only cure is more cow bell.

    Unless you fundamentally change the way those hordes work I fear there is always going to be a certain part of the Warriors of Chaos and Beastmen experience that is going to be less interesting and fun.

    You can add all the units you want but it’s still going to be Horde gameplay. And to be clear I think both rosters are very fun to play with.
    Lord of the Undermountain
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 11,737Registered Users, Moderators
    There are some folks who do enjoy Horde gameplay, is the thing, even I've enjoyed it on occasion. But there are probably ways to make it better, and that is what needs to be done.
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  • englisharcher89englisharcher89 Senior Member Bath, UKPosts: 3,785Registered Users
    Woes said:

    It is likely that Chaos recieves a revamp in Warhammer 3.

    Untill that; try overhaul mods like Grimhammer or Radious

    Yeah good luck waiting until 2021 for that maybe

    No mods are not solution
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  • NariacNariac Posts: 112Registered Users
    I liked Warriors of Chaos more before the Norsca update. Awakening tribes was kinda cool, you felt like you were nurturing the beginnings of a huge invasion in secret as you built up those tribes and subjugated the North. Then when your tribes were assembled and your hordes were built up, you could launch your attack. Your vassal tribes would follow and settle the lands you razed, so you always felt like the vanguard of a huge invasion which was cool.

    But after the Norsca update your vassals can't follow you and settle what you raze so all the awesomeness of that feels gone now. It's too much like the Beastmen where you just play whack-a-mole with settlements all the time as the other factions race to resettle them. I miss the old awakened tribes.
  • SteppelordSteppelord Junior Member Posts: 1,787Registered Users
    Its all going to be done in game 3, little use doing it now.
  • AltervisionAltervision Posts: 25Registered Users
    I want to specify that I like horde gameplay, but it seems like it has been made very quickly without thinking that after a few turns it becomes annoying. The possibility to create outposts like the Wood Elves, or maybe using the Vampire Coast pirate cove mechanic in a different way, could add something to do during the game.

    It would be cool to see the rituals also for the Old World factions. I know there is a mod for that, but it's sad that we must rely to mods to make a campaign more enjoyable. I'm not talking about new units or stats balancing, but, as someone else said, I'm talking about things to do during your turn. With the Warhammer 2 factions I NEVER got annoyed during my campaigns, because there are a lot of things to do during your turn.

    I tried some mods you proposed, but I felt like there where not enough and again, it's sad to rely on mods to make a game enjoyable. I never used SFO or Radious, because I felt like the rest of the game was okay and it wasn't necessary to add or modify things to make my campaigns more enjoyable. I only use some graphical mods to enhance units variety.

    The purpose of this discussion was to know how many people would like to see a Chaos and Beastmen overhaul BEFORE Warhammer 3. I know that with the new game these factions will probably get fixed, but the game will not come out for a long time and as I said three years are passed since the first game launch. In these three years I played only a Beastmen and Chaos grand campaign and only in the first game. After that I never tryied again, even when the ROR come out, because it was not a life changing addition (I want to clarify that I appreciated a lot the ROR update, but new units does not change the way a faction play in campaign, only in battle).

    Beastmen is my favorite faction, but I'm not motivated to play them in campaign for the points i wrote.

  • SagrandaSagranda Posts: 1,276Registered Users
    Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos are in my favorite/top 3 factions in the WH game.
    That's more so because of the "I do whatever and go wherever the **** I want" gameplay and the unit roster though.
    Outside of that it's a horrendously tedious, repetitive and a bit of a bland (because of the lack of interesting mechanics, events, tech-tree, etc.) experience, especially with the "Sees razed settlement/city -> IT'S FREE REAL ESTATE!" AI attitude.
    Though I want to give a shout out to Tilea and Estalia from by boy Khazrack at this point. Thanks for letting me abuse you two so much thanks to it.

    I'm also of the opinion that the "big" update the WoC received in WH1 (don't remember the name of the update right now) was completely shooting away from what's wrong. The changes made the WoC too easy without addressing the actual issues with the horde gameplay.


    The thing is, I seriously want to see horde gameplay reworked.
    But I'm not so sure if it's a good idea to do it before WH3.
    Of course, if we had more information regarding what's to come, it would be easier to decide.

    Though I will say this:
    If it would be possible to rework them with the possible changes in WH3 in mind, then I'm all up for it.
    "Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. What gives the most reward for the least risk? What strategy provides the highest chance – or even a guaranteed chance – of success? Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

    - Soren Johnson
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