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Quick Battle - Opponents wait for me to choose army first....

WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 269Registered Users
edited March 18 in Multiplayer
I just got into Multiplayer.

Played about 10 Quick Battles. I am 2 - 8 so not doing too well.

However, what I have noticed is in all except for 1 battle, my opponents wait for me to pick my army before they pick theirs.

I think this is some cheap way of gaining an upper hand.

Since I don't care about my record, this doesn't bother me that much, but its a bit annoying.

Is this normal?

Comments

  • ExarchExarch Posts: 516Registered Users
    Fairly normal. I tend to roll with it a lot of the time, but if they pick a hard match up, or one you don't enjoy then feel free to counterpick or dodge that match. That said, it's a lot easier getting going in MP if you stick to 1-2 factions for a bit as you learn more about how their roster interacts in different scenarios.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 269Registered Users
    Thanks for the advice.

    I am trying to use armies that I don't see used a lot. Right now I am trying to play Bretonnia... with a lot of infantry and foot ranged :)

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,043Registered Users
    In some cases they want to get good match-up in others they just want to avoid bad one, there probably only a handful of horrible match up in the game that when they pick it i consider it a coutner pick.

    As someone who plays a lot of bretonnia i don't think they are at the back of any horrible match-up so doesnt matter if they wait for u in my view.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    It's normal that you lose in the beginning. I played pretty well in Warhammer I, which is almost the same game, and I was stomped regularly in first week or so.

    If you want to play well you'll have not only to improve your skills but the understanding of game mechanics as well, morale, bonuses, etc. I advise you to watch youtube matches between higher ranked players, check Turin's channel, it's informative and enterraining but there are few more. Or twitch.

    Etiquette in lobby goes pretty much like this: put faction you want to play, wait for an opponent. Change it if you don't like the matchup cause not all factions work equally well against others. Most of the factions are roughly equal, vampyre factions are quite powerful because of the summons and high elves to because of healing /items. Low morale factions like bests, orcs, skaven but bretonia to some degree too, and few more work poorly against scary undead terror factions.

    Also, having build against each specific faction is preferred - almost must have in high tier. For example, you take different tools against high armor, high morale low mobility faction, and low armor, high mobility faction. Cetan factions love to deploy tons of cavalry or powerful monsters etc.

    Bretonna is nice and competitive faction. Fey enchantress with buffs /heals or leon are best lords.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,536Registered Users

    I just got into Multiplayer.

    Played about 10 Quick Battles. I am 2 - 8 so not doing too well.

    However, what I have noticed is in all except for 1 battle, my opponents wait for me to pick my army before they pick theirs.

    I think this is some cheap way of gaining an upper hand.

    Since I don't care about my record, this doesn't bother me that much, but its a bit annoying.

    Is this normal?

    I always pick first (unless I'm tabbed out), that being said why does it bother you so much? It's a good way to learn all matchups and learn how to play when at a bit of a disadvantage. Aside from 3-4 specific matchups (Lizardmen vs Dark Elves, High Elves vs Bretonnia, etc.), I would say currently only V.Coast and V.Counts have strong advantages vs most factions.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,283Registered Users
    If an opponent waits for you to pick first it's also perfectly reasonable to change your pick in response to his. Might result in a lot of back and forth sometimes but it's no different than if he had picked first. most people recognize that.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,536Registered Users
    edited March 18
    if this is very troublesome for you you can also pick a faction that is immune or next to immune to counterpicking such as Chaos, Empire, Vampire Coast, Vampire Counts.

    That being said my experience is very different from yours, I play a ton of HE, LZM, Skaven occasionally and very rarely do I get counterpicked by Bretonnia (good vs HE, Skaven), or DE (good vs LZ). Even when I do, most players on ladder are very bad so if you're halway decent with those factions you can still outplay them.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 391Registered Users
    Lizardmen is not a disadvantage against dark elves. With coldblood heal it was advantage to lizardmen, now even at best.

    One factor which people don't consider for counterpick is that they will wait to pick the match up that they personally are good at against that faction, so that would increase the win % even if it was even and another matchup was even, some armies they have already made would be good in particular, so that is what they are waiting for. They may not have armies made against every faction with every faction.

    Because of that phenomenon they likely will have to switch it to blind pick if they want the ratings to be accurate.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 269Registered Users
    thanks for the advice guys.

    I think for now I will skip watching any videos.

    There is something to be said for being ignorant to the "meta" and coming up with builds/strategies that are not typical. Since I don't really care about my record, I just want to have fun with it.

    It's not that I am complaining about people waiting for me to pick, it's just that I would think this kind of thing would have been solved by CA by now.

    But I do get why people do it. It's the old adage of "do onto others before they do onto you". Also it's kind of like the "prisoner's dilemma".

    Most people are pretty honest and don't want to specifically pick the hardest counter against an opponent. But they assume that the other person might do this, so they think it's better to pick second. Since most people think this way, most try to pick second. This only reinforces the idea that the other guy always wants to hard counter you. So you best make sure to pick second etc.

    Anyway's, I'll play at least a few more dozen games before I make any more conclusions.



  • ystyst Posts: 4,987Registered Users
    Dont waste time on vids tbh, not much to learn from there. Every vid watched is time completely wasted where it would be valuable real play experience.

    U learn way more completely reverse engineering the build that beats u, than watching some randoms “meta” around
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,536Registered Users
    edited March 18

    thanks for the advice guys.

    I think for now I will skip watching any videos.

    There is something to be said for being ignorant to the "meta" and coming up with builds/strategies that are not typical. Since I don't really care about my record, I just want to have fun with it.

    It's not that I am complaining about people waiting for me to pick, it's just that I would think this kind of thing would have been solved by CA by now.

    But I do get why people do it. It's the old adage of "do onto others before they do onto you". Also it's kind of like the "prisoner's dilemma".

    Most people are pretty honest and don't want to specifically pick the hardest counter against an opponent. But they assume that the other person might do this, so they think it's better to pick second. Since most people think this way, most try to pick second. This only reinforces the idea that the other guy always wants to hard counter you. So you best make sure to pick second etc.

    Anyway's, I'll play at least a few more dozen games before I make any more conclusions.



    could you give examples of people counterpicking? I play ladder quite a lot lately and in my experience it's very rare that I get counterpicked. For example. last 4 games I played I was Empire (picked first) and opponent went Bretonnia, Tomb Kings, then I picked HE twice in a row, opponent picked DE, Coast.

    As far as I know,

    Emp - Bret: about even matchup (I lost because I'm not a super expert in Empire)
    Emp - TK: about even matchup (I won, my opponent had a below average list I'd say)
    HE - DE: I'd say even there's a number of opinions on this some will tell you it's HE sided some say it's DE sided instead. I think overall DE have stronger options and a more versatile roster but this often comes at heavy disadvantages such as rampage on Cold One Knights or low armor on Slaneesh's Harvesters.
    HE - Coast: slightly Coast favored but most people on ladder are noobs at defeating HE with Coast and my list is very optimized vs Coast so it's normally a win.

    I don't know if any of these matchups you'd consider that my opponent counterpicked me, I think nowhere was I counterpicked and they were all fun matches.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 269Registered Users
    edited March 18
    To be honest I don't know if people specifically counter picked me. I can't really say that since I did not play enough games and I don't even know which faction plays better vs which other faction.

    What I do know is that if I pick my faction quickly, people seem to pick rather quickly right after me. However, if I was tabbed out and come back in and the count down timer shows only 20 more seconds, people have not yet picked. This suggests that they are waiting for me to pick.

    Edit: I played a lot of SP but it is all using SFO Grimhammer II, which alters way too much from vanilla for me to be able to make any judgement.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 569Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    thanks for the advice guys.

    I think for now I will skip watching any videos.

    There is something to be said for being ignorant to the "meta" and coming up with builds/strategies that are not typical. Since I don't really care about my record, I just want to have fun with it.

    It's not that I am complaining about people waiting for me to pick, it's just that I would think this kind of thing would have been solved by CA by now.

    But I do get why people do it. It's the old adage of "do onto others before they do onto you". Also it's kind of like the "prisoner's dilemma".

    Most people are pretty honest and don't want to specifically pick the hardest counter against an opponent. But they assume that the other person might do this, so they think it's better to pick second. Since most people think this way, most try to pick second. This only reinforces the idea that the other guy always wants to hard counter you. So you best make sure to pick second etc.

    Anyway's, I'll play at least a few more dozen games before I make any more conclusions.




    HE - Coast: slightly Coast favored but most people on ladder are noobs at defeating HE with Coast and my list is very optimized vs Coast so it's normally a win.

    Interesting to hear this, I find this one to be HE favoured personally though still winnable by both sides. Definitely think it is one of the match ups where the hybrid nature of HE units shines brightest.

    What in particular do you find to the be the VCoast MVP's vs the HE?


  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 391Registered Users

    To be honest I don't know if people specifically counter picked me. I can't really say that since I did not play enough games and I don't even know which faction plays better vs which other faction.

    What I do know is that if I pick my faction quickly, people seem to pick rather quickly right after me. However, if I was tabbed out and come back in and the count down timer shows only 20 more seconds, people have not yet picked. This suggests that they are waiting for me to pick.

    Edit: I played a lot of SP but it is all using SFO Grimhammer II, which alters way too much from vanilla for me to be able to make any judgement.

    So it's high elves vs high elves at 20 seconds for you a lot? They were probably going to play high elves if they started the timer.

    I mean the reality is that if someone picks 2nd it's a counter pick since they are preferring to play that matchup. People here are acting as though there's some sort of unified factual status of the matchup or something. A matchup one person thinks is even, the other picks it 2nd and thinks they have the advantage, etc. If someone always picks 2nd regardless of if the matchups were "even" it was still counterpicking.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 17,459Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Let's all stick with the OP's topic of discussion. Thanks.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
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  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    yst said:

    Dont waste time on vids tbh, not much to learn from there. Every vid watched is time completely wasted where it would be valuable real play experience.

    U learn way more completely reverse engineering the build that beats u, than watching some randoms “meta” around

    I wouldn't say so. Watching other people play, especially skilled people will teach you a lot about the game. It will give you new ideas and interesting way of using units that never occurred to you perhaps.

    When commentary about the battle is good as well, it's not just entertaining but informative too. Guys like Turin will quickly dissect the builds, the meta, spells, preferable strategies, unusual picks, player mistakes, what could be done better, and often after battle he will analyze the effectiveness /kill count of each unit, and sometimes even show you what army could be picked better to counter this build if the guy lost.

    Plus, imo watching good commentary of good players is far more interesting, for me, then watching the football, or any sport for that matter. In "arhammer, we have Dragons that eat orcs, gorilla chariots and onagers that launch goblins!

  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 269Registered Users
    Ha Ha, I can't believe what just happened.

    I played a battle as Skaven vs HE

    I destroyed his entire army and lost very few of my own.

    I had about 14 units left in a large blob (4 clan rats, 4 clan rat spears, rat ogres, lord (full health), 2 units of slaves, 2 units of gutter runners with no ammo, 1 unit of storm vermin with halabards)

    Most of of my units had higher than 50% health.

    all he had left was a guy on chariot and hero on horse.

    And he proceeded to destroy my entire army by just cycle charging.... WOW, was this a learning experience.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,283Registered Users

    Ha Ha, I can't believe what just happened.

    I played a battle as Skaven vs HE

    I destroyed his entire army and lost very few of my own.

    I had about 14 units left in a large blob (4 clan rats, 4 clan rat spears, rat ogres, lord (full health), 2 units of slaves, 2 units of gutter runners with no ammo, 1 unit of storm vermin with halabards)

    Most of of my units had higher than 50% health.

    all he had left was a guy on chariot and hero on horse.

    And he proceeded to destroy my entire army by just cycle charging.... WOW, was this a learning experience.

    haha, yes chariots take some getting used to. i would rather infantry weren't completely countered by them, but with them it's all about mass and not really stats per se. So for example if you made a giant pile of infantry units on top of each other or bogged him down with rat ogres you could try to slowly chip away.

    The strength of high mass single entities in late game scenarios is one of the weaker design aspects of the game.

    re: counterpicking, on the one many hand people will tend to pick favored matchups. That said, I think most people are actually just trying to pick a fun matchup that they have a build in mind for. It's hard to always have 15*15 builds ready so people find it easier to pick after you so they know they can pick a faction where they have an appropriate build already either prepared or in mind.



  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,043Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    Green0 said:

    thanks for the advice guys.

    I think for now I will skip watching any videos.

    There is something to be said for being ignorant to the "meta" and coming up with builds/strategies that are not typical. Since I don't really care about my record, I just want to have fun with it.

    It's not that I am complaining about people waiting for me to pick, it's just that I would think this kind of thing would have been solved by CA by now.

    But I do get why people do it. It's the old adage of "do onto others before they do onto you". Also it's kind of like the "prisoner's dilemma".

    Most people are pretty honest and don't want to specifically pick the hardest counter against an opponent. But they assume that the other person might do this, so they think it's better to pick second. Since most people think this way, most try to pick second. This only reinforces the idea that the other guy always wants to hard counter you. So you best make sure to pick second etc.

    Anyway's, I'll play at least a few more dozen games before I make any more conclusions.




    HE - Coast: slightly Coast favored but most people on ladder are noobs at defeating HE with Coast and my list is very optimized vs Coast so it's normally a win.

    Interesting to hear this, I find this one to be HE favoured personally though still winnable by both sides. Definitely think it is one of the match ups where the hybrid nature of HE units shines brightest.

    What in particular do you find to the be the VCoast MVP's vs the HE?


    I find it quite VP favoured, theres just not much HE can do vs ror crabs plus 2x necrofux one being nutolious and about 3 mongols, rest chaff, altearnatively you can run my mongol rush and laugh in HE face as they struggle greatly to shut you down.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,536Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    Green0 said:

    thanks for the advice guys.

    I think for now I will skip watching any videos.

    There is something to be said for being ignorant to the "meta" and coming up with builds/strategies that are not typical. Since I don't really care about my record, I just want to have fun with it.

    It's not that I am complaining about people waiting for me to pick, it's just that I would think this kind of thing would have been solved by CA by now.

    But I do get why people do it. It's the old adage of "do onto others before they do onto you". Also it's kind of like the "prisoner's dilemma".

    Most people are pretty honest and don't want to specifically pick the hardest counter against an opponent. But they assume that the other person might do this, so they think it's better to pick second. Since most people think this way, most try to pick second. This only reinforces the idea that the other guy always wants to hard counter you. So you best make sure to pick second etc.

    Anyway's, I'll play at least a few more dozen games before I make any more conclusions.




    HE - Coast: slightly Coast favored but most people on ladder are noobs at defeating HE with Coast and my list is very optimized vs Coast so it's normally a win.

    Interesting to hear this, I find this one to be HE favoured personally though still winnable by both sides. Definitely think it is one of the match ups where the hybrid nature of HE units shines brightest.

    What in particular do you find to the be the VCoast MVP's vs the HE?


    I think RoR Prometheans, mass curvy dogs and Mortars as well as Necrofex (a bit niche) are all very strong vs HE. HE also have trouble clearing chaff and summons fast. You probably want only 1-2 Handgunners in this matchup to not give HE archers too much value. Basically continue harassing his SW/archers with Noctilus bombardment/summons/mortars, none do a ton of damage but all together they take a toll. Then clear his chaff/White Lions with RoR Prometheans/Depth Guard.

    HE can definitely win though it's not like auto-win and it's a skill-based matchup (more for HE I feel).
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 2,843Registered Users

    altearnatively you can run my mongol rush and laugh in HE face as they struggle greatly to shut you down.

    Not if you're tipsy, though :smiley:

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