Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Vortex Spells Pathing Changes

nonentitynonentity Registered Users Posts: 176
It always bothered me how so many vortex spells in the game have random pathing? Like is there a reason from the warhammer lore or tabletop rules for this? Because from a pure gameplay prospective, it isn't fun or rewarding -- it just boils down to luck.

I would like to see vortex spells reworked in the future. Instead of having their pathing be random, make them selectable/controllable so the players can issue move commands as if they were units. This way, we can use vortex spells to skillfully punish enemy blobs instead of praying to RNGesus.

Comments

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,176
    Talked about 100000 times

    Simply reduce vortex speed by 66% and almost all of them r instant viable. U still have vortex just not the stupid ones we have right now thats completely garbage.

    Whens the last time ppl sees purple sun, bad moon and rest of the garbage vortex being used. Other than banishment, still vortex, pretty much rest r never taken
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • nonentitynonentity Registered Users Posts: 176
    yst said:

    Talked about 100000 times

    Simply reduce vortex speed by 66% and almost all of them r instant viable. U still have vortex just not the stupid ones we have right now thats completely garbage.

    Whens the last time ppl sees purple sun, bad moon and rest of the garbage vortex being used. Other than banishment, still vortex, pretty much rest r never taken

    Then why not simply make vortex spells stationary? Your proposal doesn't tackle the root of the problem which is randomness -- spells can still veer of course and either whiff or hit your own troops. Reducing speed still doesn't change the fact that their pathing is luck-based and not skill-based.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,105
    nonentity said:

    yst said:

    Talked about 100000 times

    Simply reduce vortex speed by 66% and almost all of them r instant viable. U still have vortex just not the stupid ones we have right now thats completely garbage.

    Whens the last time ppl sees purple sun, bad moon and rest of the garbage vortex being used. Other than banishment, still vortex, pretty much rest r never taken

    Then why not simply make vortex spells stationary? Your proposal doesn't tackle the root of the problem which is randomness -- spells can still veer of course and either whiff or hit your own troops. Reducing speed still doesn't change the fact that their pathing is luck-based and not skill-based.
    A little bit of luck is fine. Adds to the risk and random fun of using it. This primarily a single player game, and it’s DEFINITELY not an esport. A little bit of RNG is fine if it adds diversity and fun. If people’s livelihoods depended on the competitive equity of it I’d have a different opinion....but in a just for lulz game, some lulz should be allowed.

    I DO wish the possible veering off course options weren’t so severe that they made some spells COMPLETELY undesirable. So that speed fix works for me.

    But predictable pathing or stationary would both make them a ‘breath’ or ‘wind’ spell instead of a vortex. And would require significant rebalancing as they are very high damage. Making them able to get 100% hits would make certain ones OP.



  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,176
    edited March 2019
    nonentity said:

    Then why not simply make vortex spells stationary? Your proposal doesn't tackle the root of the problem which is randomness -- spells can still veer of course and either whiff or hit your own troops. Reducing speed still doesn't change the fact that their pathing is luck-based and not skill-based.

    U cant bypass design.

    THEY ARE MEANT TO MOVE. Lowering the move speed is the only logical possible solution. Of coz unless u wanna half their mana so u can keep spamming it then thats fine as well lol

    That said, all vortex stationary is pretty much the dream change
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • Gilgamesh1Gilgamesh1 Registered Users Posts: 657
    there are laready stationary vortexes in the game like Pit of shades or Dwellers below but they pay for this trait with a very mediocre damage compared to banishment,purple sun ecc...

    Vortex are high risk high reward spells and every vortex is a bit different from the other. that said, all things left to randomness are less fun and thus a little bit more control/less randomness would be cool
  • nonentitynonentity Registered Users Posts: 176
    Well this is why the mechanics needs a rework in the future. The risk vs reward isn't worth the investment so people get away with blobbing. It shouldn't be too hard to modify vortex spells so they behave like a single entity summon: caster generates a vortex entity which can be controlled for a short time frame. Just add a damage over time effect within a fixed radius and it should work fine.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Registered Users Posts: 463
    Make vortexes "rampage" IE move slowly towards the nearest unit and we get something much more reasonable. Controllable vortexes are not blob punishing tools, they're unit deletion tools.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Registered Users Posts: 750

    Make vortexes "rampage" IE move slowly towards the nearest unit and we get something much more reasonable. Controllable vortexes are not blob punishing tools, they're unit deletion tools.

    Flamestorm already does this, since they switched that it became viable, close to op depending on the specific circumstance.

    Purple sun costs more but doesn't have that, I have seen people using it and not getting much from it. It's frustrating that they don't update the game on basic things like this in time.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,366

    Make vortexes "rampage" IE move slowly towards the nearest unit and we get something much more reasonable. Controllable vortexes are not blob punishing tools, they're unit deletion tools.

    Flamestorm already does this, since they switched that it became viable, close to op depending on the specific circumstance.

    Purple sun costs more but doesn't have that, I have seen people using it and not getting much from it. It's frustrating that they don't update the game on basic things like this in time.
    wait what, really? It's not in the description and why does specifically Flamestorm of all vortices behave differently?
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Registered Users Posts: 750
    Green0 said:

    Make vortexes "rampage" IE move slowly towards the nearest unit and we get something much more reasonable. Controllable vortexes are not blob punishing tools, they're unit deletion tools.

    Flamestorm already does this, since they switched that it became viable, close to op depending on the specific circumstance.

    Purple sun costs more but doesn't have that, I have seen people using it and not getting much from it. It's frustrating that they don't update the game on basic things like this in time.
    wait what, really? It's not in the description and why does specifically Flamestorm of all vortices behave differently?
    They buffed it a couple patches ago, it was in the patch notes. I thought it was a bit op when I first used it, but it doesn't really outperform other best magic like windblast or earthblood. However it is cheaper with longer duration and same damage as purple sun, with the tracking also. Directly compared to it purple sun should cost no more than 9 winds.

    I wasn't pleased because they have nerfed bladewind to unusable then buffed flamestorm to that level, probably better than old bladewind.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,366
    thanks for sharing, didn't know about this. About purple sun, yea unimpressive spell. I used it in a SP campaign recently and even there it's barely worth it. Doesn't last enough and does very moderate damage on top of being random.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,722
    flame storm does not "rampage", it moves like any other vortex. From the TombKings patch notes:

    "Flame Storm: increased radius to 10m. Adjusted damage down to balance vortex to new radius.
    Flame Storm Upgraded: Replaced radius increase with more damage."

    From aye aye patch: "Flame Storm: now drags entities towards it rather than pushing them away"

    so it sucks instead of blows.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,125
    Lol. Vortexes could be a little slower but many of them are viable now. Basic flame storm is worth the risk to cast now if you set it up.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,366
    eumaies said:

    Lol. Vortexes could be a little slower but many of them are viable now. Basic flame storm is worth the risk to cast now if you set it up.

    I only see the bound ones brought. They're still not up there with spells like Searing Doom that for some 6 mana can do some 30%+ damage to a Swordmaster at which point you wonder why would you ever bring a vortex as long as such spells exist.

    Bound ones are not bad (Slann one e.g.) but the ones you buy for WoM make you feel bad more often than not. As long as they're even a bit unreliable, one will always go for the sure thing i.e. Searing Doom/Regrowth/Pha's Protection which are spells with predictable value that hence make the outcome of a 2v2/3v3 fight also predictable.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,722
    Flamestorm is honestly nuts, overcast it last 54 seconds, so even if it veers off course, chances are it will come back or move somewhere else useful, or at least make your opponent reposition.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Registered Users Posts: 750
    Loupi_ said:

    Flamestorm is honestly nuts, overcast it last 54 seconds, so even if it veers off course, chances are it will come back or move somewhere else useful, or at least make your opponent reposition.

    Because it tracks the target. It wouldn't consistently reacquire a target if that wasn't the case.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,722

    Loupi_ said:

    Flamestorm is honestly nuts, overcast it last 54 seconds, so even if it veers off course, chances are it will come back or move somewhere else useful, or at least make your opponent reposition.

    Because it tracks the target. It wouldn't consistently reacquire a target if that wasn't the case.
    what no. It moves randomly like any other vortex.
  • SkorpioSkorpio Registered Users Posts: 12
    What if moving vortexes still move randomly, but have a chance to move towards a nearby unit each time it makes a direction change RNG roll? It can be an enemy unit or your own, so it can up the risk factor in some ways, but you won't end up watching it shoot off into the distance or through buildings on a siege map. It isn't a constant thing to follow units so it's not chasing units down, and it can still move away and miss with some bad luck, but it's more consistent in its damage and doesn't waste a crap ton of Mana every other cast. Plus, if it can track your own units, there's a big risk factor in using them on units in melee.

    I think this wouldn't change how they would most effectively be used, but it would make it a lot less frustrating if I wasn't watching my expensive spell yeet itself off into the sunset.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file