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How viable are Bretonnian cavalry-heavy builds, really ?

ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 389Registered Users
edited April 5 in Multiplayer
(if the title made you angry please read to the end <3 )

With the coming update in mind... This question might sound totally weird but:

How viable is it to field lots, 6+, of heavy cavalry with Bretonnia ? Specifically, at high, tournament level and in hard match-ups.

I can't tell personally, but it looks like at high level, lots of cav is more a luxury to stomp easy match-ups rather than a high-skill strategy to deal with the toughest ones. Like if infantry-based builds (say, 3- cav, huge numbers) were the ultimate answer to difficult fights, while lots of cav were funny variations when facing elves.

We may end up with heroic knights being used to smash faeries, but when scary monsters come it's the peasants who do the tough work. Petty knights doing only the easy work is actually quite funny from a class struggle perspective, but maybe not what we look for here :-P

I wish to see one day such a build, or use it myself given enough practice: a huge army of knights smashing into Chaos lines and actually having a chance with enough skill and ability timing.

It is very possible I'm totally wrong and it is already the case, then any video featuring that in a high-level tournament would make me happy and make me hope I can one day do the same!

Otherwise, it would mean that Bretonnia simply needs some high-skill "Prayer to the Lady" army ability that helps support large numbers of cavalry, probably map-wide like a mini-waahg or Orion's horn, a very short duration buff, 10 seconds where you have to perfectly time a collective charge to benefit from that ability. A short buff means enemy cav can dodge that buff. If people agree on the principle but not details it can be tuned.

This is not to move away from infantry play, it should remain viable, just opening options. And this not saying that Bretonnian cavalry is not good - but rather that its cost-effectiveness is leveraged to buy more peasants. This is not about overall power, personally I would rather see Bretonnia weaker overall, even a faction-specific de-buff (-25% MA when facing WE, whatever), as long as they allow for more varied play styles in bad MU. A struggle that e.g. the Dawi share.

(all these precautions meaning, to some, please don't derail this thread with exclusive dialogues, bias calling, rhetoric that leads nowhere etc etc thaaaaanks - love - peace)

Post edited by ThibixMagnus on

Comments

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,894Registered Users
    tl;dr: if the generic cav of HE is good enough to make full cav armies, Bret specialized cavalry probably is too.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 389Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    tl;dr: if the generic cav of HE is good enough to make full cav armies, Bret specialized cavalry probably is too.

    Sorry, I made it long to avoid any misunderstanding :)

    That's great news then, if you ever see a video (tournament, hard match-up) it would be quite instructive for me. Thanks in any case.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,894Registered Users
    edited April 5

    Green0 said:

    tl;dr: if the generic cav of HE is good enough to make full cav armies, Bret specialized cavalry probably is too.

    Sorry, I made it long to avoid any misunderstanding :)

    That's great news then, if you ever see a video (tournament, hard match-up) it would be quite instructive for me. Thanks in any case.
    it depends though really, of course if the opponent picks full halberds into you neither HE nor Bret full cav will work. If an army had no weaknesses, it would be played 100% of the times. I think though Bret full cav can work vs most factions except VC and maybe Chaos. It can really shine vs HE, Beastmen, Greenskins, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Lizardmen.

    Oh and Coast + Dwarfs, into them you probably don't want full cav either. On Coast because their infantry is unbreakable, on DWF because a lot of units have charge defense + high LD.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 686Registered Users
    I guess it depends on what you are going for. 6 heavy cav is a pretty big risk and if you are going full grail knights theres a pretty good chance it could backfire depending on the opponents build (not to mention elites in that quantity tend to be banned from tournaments anyways)

    6x KoTR or QK or KE? Thats not super uncommon and you still have an okay amount of funds to spend elsewhere.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,894Registered Users
    you can also do 4x KE/KotR and 1-2 GK which leaves you with nice funds for a Spearmen frontline, a tiny flying force and maybe even 1-2 archers :)
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,463Registered Users
    I very often use about 7 knights, it just depends on the map for me. But i ussually stick to OP errants, with mixed in realm. if i go cav heavy. I go for GK when i dont go for more than 4 unit of knights, but i have taken 2 GK and 4 OP errants before.

    700g for errants is absurd.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,126Registered Users
    edited April 5
    Its doable, but I honestly do not recommend them, it just makes your entire army extremely micro intensive and every anti-large unit in the enemy roster( they usually bring a lot vs bretonnia) are gonna be verry effective, I did this a couple of times, I won like half the time, but normal builds have much much higher viability

    P.s. i am talking about full cav armies here :)


  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,538Registered Users
    aside from the micro load, it's entirely viable. Brettonia has some very durable and versatile knights that to some extent can compete with anti-large if you are skilled enough at managing them all, especially with magic support.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,894Registered Users
    edited April 6

    Its doable, but I honestly do not recommend them, it just makes your entire army extremely micro intensive and every anti-large unit in the enemy roster( they usually bring a lot vs bretonnia) are gonna be verry effective, I did this a couple of times, I won like half the time, but normal builds have much much higher viability

    P.s. i am talking about full cav armies here :)

    you can bring 4-7 spearmen at arms to pin stuff, you know. It will still be classified as "full cav" for all intents and purposes.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 2,959Registered Users
    Well, you're almost always better with some infantry. just bring 3-4 men-at-arms for like 750-1000
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,126Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Its doable, but I honestly do not recommend them, it just makes your entire army extremely micro intensive and every anti-large unit in the enemy roster( they usually bring a lot vs bretonnia) are gonna be verry effective, I did this a couple of times, I won like half the time, but normal builds have much much higher viability

    P.s. i am talking about full cav armies here :)

    you can bring 4-7 spearmen at arms to pin stuff, you know. It will still be classified as "full cav" for all intents and purposes.
    Well not really, its more Cav heavy than full cav, full cav is literally what the name is :)


  • Green0Green0 Posts: 3,894Registered Users
    there is no reason to bring full cav, 250g spears are useful and enable cav massively you don’t need too many of them but you need a few unless you wanna stick to putting dots on i’s and j’s.

    1000g of spearmen isn’t a big investment and I wouldn’t classify it as “ruining the spirit of the army”.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,126Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    there is no reason to bring full cav, 250g spears are useful and enable cav massively you don’t need too many of them but you need a few unless you wanna stick to putting dots on i’s and j’s.

    1000g of spearmen isn’t a big investment and I wouldn’t classify it as “ruining the spirit of the army”.

    Ik I was talking about full cav, like literally full cav with questing knights and grail guardians as feontline cav with knights errant to harras and some grail knights to go around


  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,463Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    there is no reason to bring full cav, 250g spears are useful and enable cav massively you don’t need too many of them but you need a few unless you wanna stick to putting dots on i’s and j’s.

    1000g of spearmen isn’t a big investment and I wouldn’t classify it as “ruining the spirit of the army”.

    Ik I was talking about full cav, like literally full cav with questing knights and grail guardians as feontline cav with knights errant to harras and some grail knights to go around
    The OP did write cav heavy not all cav builds though.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,126Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    there is no reason to bring full cav, 250g spears are useful and enable cav massively you don’t need too many of them but you need a few unless you wanna stick to putting dots on i’s and j’s.

    1000g of spearmen isn’t a big investment and I wouldn’t classify it as “ruining the spirit of the army”.

    Ik I was talking about full cav, like literally full cav with questing knights and grail guardians as feontline cav with knights errant to harras and some grail knights to go around
    The OP did write cav heavy not all cav builds though.
    Ik, but I shared what Full cav does


  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 389Registered Users

    I very often use about 7 knights, it just depends on the map for me. But i ussually stick to OP errants, with mixed in realm. if i go cav heavy. I go for GK when i dont go for more than 4 unit of knights, but i have taken 2 GK and 4 OP errants before.

    700g for errants is absurd.

    interesting, so with good map and in tournament, would you consider 7+ knights are "at least as good as" a mostly infantry build ? in other MU than elves ?

    Green0 said:

    there is no reason to bring full cav, 250g spears are useful and enable cav massively you don’t need too many of them but you need a few unless you wanna stick to putting dots on i’s and j’s.

    1000g of spearmen isn’t a big investment and I wouldn’t classify it as “ruining the spirit of the army”.

    Ik I was talking about full cav, like literally full cav with questing knights and grail guardians as feontline cav with knights errant to harras and some grail knights to go around
    The OP did write cav heavy not all cav builds though.
    yeah I guess if full cav can be viable at times, almost full cav with some spearmen support fare even better. I wonder if full cav wouldn't be more viable if the 9 cap was lifted, so you could use threat saturation with empire, skaven or VP.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,463Registered Users

    I very often use about 7 knights, it just depends on the map for me. But i ussually stick to OP errants, with mixed in realm. if i go cav heavy. I go for GK when i dont go for more than 4 unit of knights, but i have taken 2 GK and 4 OP errants before.

    700g for errants is absurd.

    interesting, so with good map and in tournament, would you consider 7+ knights are "at least as good as" a mostly infantry build ? in other MU than elves ?

    Green0 said:

    there is no reason to bring full cav, 250g spears are useful and enable cav massively you don’t need too many of them but you need a few unless you wanna stick to putting dots on i’s and j’s.

    1000g of spearmen isn’t a big investment and I wouldn’t classify it as “ruining the spirit of the army”.

    Ik I was talking about full cav, like literally full cav with questing knights and grail guardians as feontline cav with knights errant to harras and some grail knights to go around
    The OP did write cav heavy not all cav builds though.
    yeah I guess if full cav can be viable at times, almost full cav with some spearmen support fare even better. I wonder if full cav wouldn't be more viable if the 9 cap was lifted, so you could use threat saturation with empire, skaven or VP.
    If you got a open map without too much forest, 7 cav is great, but you need a way for opponent to move out of defensive position, i do this by taking 5 poison archers or 2 trebs, you can also add some infantry such as squires or men at arms for roadblocks.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 389Registered Users
    thanks for the several responses, if you have any vid that would be interesting.

    Still, apart from elves, and I guess some low armor like BM and GS; have you seen a successful 7+ cav build against other factions in a tournament? I'm trying to see if 7+ cav is viable but generally sub-optimal, or really equally viable compared to infantry centric builds, assuming great micro.

    Said otherwise, if there are additional benefits worth the micro toll of a cavalry-centric army. Is it hard to use but rewarding, or will you just be at best as good as an infantry army? Against anything else than WE/HE.
  • MrRipper707MrRipper707 Posts: 94Registered Users
    As someone who wants to play other factions but cant stop playing chaos my take on it is if the map has a lot of forest its probably not going to work that well. If the chaos player can force you to push using magic and skrimish cav and then negate the cavalry bonuses by forcing the fight in the forest.

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