Doom-flayers.

GodOfGobboz

I have no words.

Feel free to discuss in the comments below.




(EDIT: Removed screenshots where spells may have been used (I actually do not remember if i had them or not, but for the sake of consistency, only the demigryph screenshot will be posted (No spells were used). Either way, as some have pointed out, this is just a test vs AI and shouldn't be taken as ultimate proof. I just wished to showcase how they overperform against units that other chariots would get destroyed by. I will likely make another, detailed thread about flayers and the problems that they have. More specifically, their broken hitbox.)

Kayosiv#7489

I was concerned when I discovered how much stronger they seemed compared to gorebeast chariots for a similar price tag, when gorebeasts are already super good.

Yikes.

mightygloin#2446

Some rat boys on chariot-things murdering countless heavy cavalry and elite halberds? Surely a bug or an oversight. I mean these units must be tested many times before release right?

OrkLads

Holy cow, what kind of damage did they take in the Empire test? Assuming they didn't stay at full hp, just didn't lose a model (which is nuts in its own right).

Their weapon damage seems far far too high for a chariot unit if they're going to be that tanky.

Bordiga

Thtas only the tip of the iceberg.

For an unknown reason cannon ball do not hit them at all while moving.

In fact you do not need to micro them to dodge.

I have tested it with dawi cannon and they almost always miss their shots.


RIP DWARFS,

Ehecatl

They are obviously broken and this is why I hate the DLC policy, they are super OP when released and will stay that way until the next DLC probably, just like VP.

Lotus_Moon#2452

You know gotta make those sales, this unit is beyondbroken, its game breaking.

EvilPanda#8470

To be fair we already know that halberds are not a counter to chariots...still their OPness could be seen miles away

Cukie251

I don't understand why they are even capable of fighting cav at all. Chariots are supposed to be countered by high mass mobile entities, the fact that they can outfight them seems ridiculous.

At minimum they need to switch over a huge portion of the MA over to BVI so they cant hit cav at all. That would at least make the absurd weapon strength a little more bearable.

OrkLads

Cukie251 said:

I don't understand why they are even capable of fighting cav at all. Chariots are supposed to be countered by high mass mobile entities, the fact that they can outfight them seems ridiculous.

At minimum they need to switch over a huge portion of the MA over to BVI so they cant hit cav at all. That would at least make the absurd weapon strength a little more bearable.

Absolutely. This seems like a good compromise, it would make them slaughter infantry as intended, and act as a Treekin like unit of Armoured mass vs cavalry.

Lotus_Moon#2452

I would cut their weapon damage by 50% to start than give them a bigger hit box.

eumaies#1128

Yeah seems a bit extreme in very predictable ways. I don’t mind them doing well vs armored non AP cav but you had Demi’s in there... just tiny hitbox means nothing can hit them reliably in Melee or ranged. Brilliant!

I think dwarfs have a few options by just one of those stupid units deigned to infinitely counter infantry and be more than cost effective vs most of its natural counters. Fun

Aerocrastic

Chances are, the solution to them is not a simple one. Pertaining to their statline I don't know what the design is supposed to be. Tanky, small hitbox, huge weapon strength, but limp charge for a chariot. We did comment on doom flayers and CA did make some adjustments to them (monstrous infantry and cavalry can sort of kill them now), however, the problem still stands to be that they're kind of good at everything still. CA is aware of this issue I'm certain, but the problem may be something more convoluted than we might think at first glance. It's possible that there's a bug where the hitbox on the unit doesn't match the unit model.

That being said, I think it would be interesting if doom flayers were changed to be a little bit more like monstrous infantry than chariots per se.

-150 cost
-1000 HP
-5 MD
-24 speed
-20 WS
-10 armor

or something like that

ElectorOfWurttemberg

Tag

Lotus_Moon#2452

Aerocrastic said:

Chances are, the solution to them is not a simple one. Pertaining to their statline I don't know what the design is supposed to be. Tanky, small hitbox, huge weapon strength, but limp charge for a chariot. We did comment on doom flayers and CA did make some adjustments to them (monstrous infantry and cavalry can sort of kill them now), however, the problem still stands to be that they're kind of good at everything still. CA is aware of this issue I'm certain, but the problem may be something more convoluted than we might think at first glance. It's possible that there's a bug where the hitbox on the unit doesn't match the unit model.

That being said, I think it would be interesting if doom flayers were changed to be a little bit more like monstrous infantry than chariots per se.

-150 cost
-1000 HP
-5 MD
-24 speed
-20 WS
-10 armor

or something like that

I can tell you what their design should be, its been a trend since Mongols came out.

its to get rid of natural counters and release units that cover their wekness, same with ROR jezzails.

Ohh what are chariots bad at....prolonged fights....lets give them absurd weapons strenght...with AP, just incase people send cav to counter them....but what if they get shot...ohh you're rite lets give them a small hit box.

Ohh we got a 300m ranged units...lets give them 70 armour and silver shields incase opponent tries to shoot at them...how about we give the ROR stalk and snipe because otherwise arty might be an issue.

Like expected Skaven are OP and ALL ROR are silly currently.

ElectorOfWurttemberg

Lotus_Moon said:

I can tell you what their design should be, its been a trend since Mongols came out.

its to get rid of natural counters and release units that cover their wekness, same with ROR jezzails.

Ohh what are chariots bad at....prolonged fights....lets give them absurd weapons strenght...with AP, just incase people send cav to counter them....but what if they get show...ohh you're rite lets give them a small hit box.

Ohh we got a 300m ranged units...lets give them 70 armour and silver shields incase opponent tries to shoot at them...how about we give the ROR stalk and snipe because otherwise arty might be an issue.

Like expected Skaven are OP and ALL ROR are silly currently.

I don't know about Mongols but you could see this trend pretty early in Wh1.

Albeit more subtle than how they are going about it now.

Lotus_Moon#2452

ElectorOfWurttemberg said:

Lotus_Moon said:

I can tell you what their design should be, its been a trend since Mongols came out.

its to get rid of natural counters and release units that cover their wekness, same with ROR jezzails.

Ohh what are chariots bad at....prolonged fights....lets give them absurd weapons strenght...with AP, just incase people send cav to counter them....but what if they get show...ohh you're rite lets give them a small hit box.

Ohh we got a 300m ranged units...lets give them 70 armour and silver shields incase opponent tries to shoot at them...how about we give the ROR stalk and snipe because otherwise arty might be an issue.

Like expected Skaven are OP and ALL ROR are silly currently.

I don't know about Mongols but you could see this trend pretty early in Wh1.

Albeit more subtle than how they are going about it now.

Mongols....make them strong vs infantry but weak vs shooting...lets give them stalk and vanguard

Ehecatl

I was doing battles with my buddy earlier, I primarily play dark elves so my first thought was to try and use cold one riders since they are a spear anti large cav and should have mass to stop them. I didnt' know the horror that awaited.

Lotus_Moon#2452

Basically dodge LZM and SKaven in QB until they stop being game breaking.

Parmigiano

Lotus_Moon said:

Basically dodge LZM and SKaven in QB until they stop being game breaking.

I hate to say it, but it must be that the people testing the units to give CA feedback are biased and don't mind lizardmen/skaven to be a little overpowered.

Either that, or it is not actually overpowered. Maybe they thought they would nerf doomflayers in between more than they actually did, but I have to wonder what CA was using in testing to kill them.

But I hope it's not already a dodge that faction situation, that sounds extreme.

#21546

GodOfGobboz said:

I have no words.

Feel free to discuss in the comments below.


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/274654233750667264/568203208481046548/20190418002754_1.jpg


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/274654233750667264/568203230576902144/20190418003609_1.jpg

What did you do in your tests, mine is much different...

The HP isnt representative at all, if you do a game like this and loose 90% of your HP, but no models, the image in the battle report will say full HP, because it only counts models.

And in my test vs Phonex guards they get trashed

But I agree against cav they need a serious nerf

Even if they get beaten by reiksguard and empire knight quite handily. So idk what you did in your test, but mine are wayy off

OrkLads

Parmigiano said:

Lotus_Moon said:

Basically dodge LZM and SKaven in QB until they stop being game breaking.

I hate to say it, but it must be that the people testing the units to give CA feedback are biased and don't mind lizardmen/skaven to be a little overpowered.

Either that, or it is not actually overpowered. Maybe they thought they would nerf doomflayers in between more than they actually did, but I have to wonder what CA was using in testing to kill them.

But I hope it's not already a dodge that faction situation, that sounds extreme.

Nah, you can never catch everything in testing. That's one of the core tenets of software development, the users will use things in ways you wouldn't think of do stuff you don't intend them too. It would be a genuine mistake, **** happens.

I just hope feedback is taken and they are given a nerf in the follow up patch. I really don't want to have to avoid Skaven or Lizardmen for months after this 90% awesome DLC.

#21546

Lotus_Moon said:

Basically dodge LZM and SKaven in QB until they stop being game breaking.

Oh god 😂

**** pls stop crying for gamebreaking stuff when its not even been a day since release😂. I beated multiple LM opponents today quite easily, I beated skavens easily( though that was with LM so idk if you count it) I played multiple games today against really good players( friends and clan members) and no faction looked utterly broken, Kroak could use a price increase and WoM cost increase of the spells( especially third level) and skaven with doomflayers a tar too strong, but they are not unbeatbale, I shutted 2 of them down easily in my game against them, just used cav and a Lord( AP lords absolutely shreds them).

They need a tweak, but nothing is gamebreaking here.

You got new things that you need to get used to, for sure, but before calling something gamebreaking could you actually wait a week or 2 ?

And those test above idk what the guy did, but jn my test it doesnt come close to what he showed, phoenix guards win easily, reiksguard and Empire knight tool some pretty good looses, but managed to win handily for equal value.

another505

Bu-but muh skaven is underpowered and now you have to think before abusing skaven with cycle charges!!!



anyways, glad i got into witcher 3 the past few days. see you guys in the next patch

Parmigiano

OrkLads said:

Parmigiano said:

Lotus_Moon said:

Basically dodge LZM and SKaven in QB until they stop being game breaking.

I hate to say it, but it must be that the people testing the units to give CA feedback are biased and don't mind lizardmen/skaven to be a little overpowered.

Either that, or it is not actually overpowered. Maybe they thought they would nerf doomflayers in between more than they actually did, but I have to wonder what CA was using in testing to kill them.

But I hope it's not already a dodge that faction situation, that sounds extreme.

Nah, you can never catch everything in testing. That's one of the core tenets of software development, the users will use things in ways you wouldn't think of do stuff you don't intend them too. It would be a genuine mistake, **** happens.

I just hope feedback is taken and they are given a nerf in the follow up patch. I really don't want to have to avoid Skaven or Lizardmen for months after this 90% awesome DLC.

If this is being viewed as a given in this way then the follow up patch for releases should always be faster.

I have not even played against the doomflayer, it has been the ranged heavy armies that is the problem, making skaven seem similar to vampire coast.

I think the machine guns are overpowered, 36% slowing is turning out to be too high. But if the skaven can rush them using doomflayers as well it is too many different types of armies to prepare for being added overtuned, I thought skaven were close to balanced overall prior to dlc.

I think the answer is going to come from if skaven is still bad against vampiric, then it's going to be that no matter what they give skaven OP vampiric was too OP.

Lotus_Moon#2452

AIMA_Dracklor said:

Lotus_Moon said:

Basically dodge LZM and SKaven in QB until they stop being game breaking.

Oh god 😂

**** pls stop crying for gamebreaking stuff when its not even been a day since release😂. I beated multiple LM opponents today quite easily, I beated skavens easily( though that was with LM so idk if you count it) I played multiple games today against really good players( friends and clan members) and no faction looked utterly broken, Kroak could use a price increase and WoM cost increase of the spells( especially third level) and skaven with doomflayers a tar too strong, but they are not unbeatbale, I shutted 2 of them down easily in my game against them, just used cav and a Lord( AP lords absolutely shreds them).

They need a tweak, but nothing is gamebreaking here.

You got new things that you need to get used to, for sure, but before calling something gamebreaking could you actually wait a week or 2 ?

And those test above idk what the guy did, but jn my test it doesnt come close to what he showed, phoenix guards win easily, reiksguard and Empire knight tool some pretty good looses, but managed to win handily for equal value.

Stop assiming i played it for a day.

Im not the one who even made this thread, i just totally ageee with it.

If you used VC/VP or lzm/skv it counts for little, if you used other factions than yes do let me know who you played against?

I be happy to use skv n lzm and show you how broken they are, when do you have time?

#21546

Lotus_Moon said:

AIMA_Dracklor said:

Lotus_Moon said:

Basically dodge LZM and SKaven in QB until they stop being game breaking.

Oh god 😂

**** pls stop crying for gamebreaking stuff when its not even been a day since release😂. I beated multiple LM opponents today quite easily, I beated skavens easily( though that was with LM so idk if you count it) I played multiple games today against really good players( friends and clan members) and no faction looked utterly broken, Kroak could use a price increase and WoM cost increase of the spells( especially third level) and skaven with doomflayers a tar too strong, but they are not unbeatbale, I shutted 2 of them down easily in my game against them, just used cav and a Lord( AP lords absolutely shreds them).

They need a tweak, but nothing is gamebreaking here.

You got new things that you need to get used to, for sure, but before calling something gamebreaking could you actually wait a week or 2 ?

And those test above idk what the guy did, but jn my test it doesnt come close to what he showed, phoenix guards win easily, reiksguard and Empire knight tool some pretty good looses, but managed to win handily for equal value.

Stop assiming i played it for a day.

Im not the one who even made this thread, i just totally ageee with it.

If you used VC/VP or lzm/skv it counts for little, if you used other factions than yes do let me know who you played against?

I be happy to use skv n lzm and show you how broken they are, when do you have time?

I used Bretonnia, HE and Dwarfs.

Just other clan Memeber such as Mantis, but its out of the point, the thing is lets wait a bit before saying everything is Gamebreaking( this is a **** big word btw) it is not gamebreaking as Ive defeated them handily, I lost, I won, but nothing utterly broken.

A match between us would not necessarily serve a big point, you have what ? Thousands of victories in wh2 alone ? You are more experinced and would probably beat me, but that would not really illustrate a point, I beated my friend with Bretonnia against his Lizardmen does that mean bretonnia is gamebreaking ?

I don't think so, but there is some things that could use tweaking, like what I mentioned in the post before, but let the community a couple of week and then we will be able to see clearer.

And from what I played they seem strong, tier 1 for sure, but they are not at Vampire Coast level last patch.

another505

Lotus_Moon said:

Aerocrastic said:

Chances are, the solution to them is not a simple one. Pertaining to their statline I don't know what the design is supposed to be. Tanky, small hitbox, huge weapon strength, but limp charge for a chariot. We did comment on doom flayers and CA did make some adjustments to them (monstrous infantry and cavalry can sort of kill them now), however, the problem still stands to be that they're kind of good at everything still. CA is aware of this issue I'm certain, but the problem may be something more convoluted than we might think at first glance. It's possible that there's a bug where the hitbox on the unit doesn't match the unit model.

That being said, I think it would be interesting if doom flayers were changed to be a little bit more like monstrous infantry than chariots per se.

-150 cost
-1000 HP
-5 MD
-24 speed
-20 WS
-10 armor

or something like that

I can tell you what their design should be, its been a trend since Mongols came out.

its to get rid of natural counters and release units that cover their wekness, same with ROR jezzails.

Ohh what are chariots bad at....prolonged fights....lets give them absurd weapons strenght...with AP, just incase people send cav to counter them....but what if they get shot...ohh you're rite lets give them a small hit box.

Ohh we got a 300m ranged units...lets give them 70 armour and silver shields incase opponent tries to shoot at them...how about we give the ROR stalk and snipe because otherwise arty might be an issue.

Like expected Skaven are OP and ALL ROR are silly currently.

This is what I feel like about WH2 really going through
It started with Lothern sea guard with shield and dark shards with shield, at least they are priced pretty high
then with VP hordes of unbreakable undead guns
now we see this in skaven and somewhat lzm blob(give resistance everywhere + good aoe spell that doesnt hurt allies)

Lotus_Moon#2452

another505 said:

Lotus_Moon said:

Aerocrastic said:

Chances are, the solution to them is not a simple one. Pertaining to their statline I don't know what the design is supposed to be. Tanky, small hitbox, huge weapon strength, but limp charge for a chariot. We did comment on doom flayers and CA did make some adjustments to them (monstrous infantry and cavalry can sort of kill them now), however, the problem still stands to be that they're kind of good at everything still. CA is aware of this issue I'm certain, but the problem may be something more convoluted than we might think at first glance. It's possible that there's a bug where the hitbox on the unit doesn't match the unit model.

That being said, I think it would be interesting if doom flayers were changed to be a little bit more like monstrous infantry than chariots per se.

-150 cost
-1000 HP
-5 MD
-24 speed
-20 WS
-10 armor

or something like that

I can tell you what their design should be, its been a trend since Mongols came out.

its to get rid of natural counters and release units that cover their wekness, same with ROR jezzails.

Ohh what are chariots bad at....prolonged fights....lets give them absurd weapons strenght...with AP, just incase people send cav to counter them....but what if they get shot...ohh you're rite lets give them a small hit box.

Ohh we got a 300m ranged units...lets give them 70 armour and silver shields incase opponent tries to shoot at them...how about we give the ROR stalk and snipe because otherwise arty might be an issue.

Like expected Skaven are OP and ALL ROR are silly currently.

This is what I feel like about WH2 really going through
It started with Lothern sea guard with shield and dark shards with shield, at least they are priced pretty high
then with VP hordes of unbreakable undead guns
now we see this in skaven and somewhat lzm blob(give resistance everywhere + good aoe spell that doesnt hurt allies)

At least LSG and DS have 35ish speed and get penalised in range for it. What trade of do Jezzails have? ... 300m range.

ElectorOfWurttemberg

This is why I argue for a lot of the changes I argue for, despite the easy dismissal many make because of a "tier list."

There is no going back. You can maybe curve these unit's to be 'Balanced' in our low resolution 'tier-list' that so many find comfort in. It doesn't change that feature creep, power creep, mechanics creep is a very real thing in the game and should be polished out of it.

Even things like FX is just better with the newer stuff.

Of course it's "CA Vision." Amirite... who was it that was arguing that to me a while back?