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Doom-flayers.

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  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,375
    Seethe said:

    WTF CA. Please nerf Demigryph Knights ASAP




    I have no words...




    Do I even need to do the Knights of the Blazing Sun and Empire Knights test. It's so obvious you sent Ikit forward to blob the AI and then wreck it with your death stack. What next? CA should balance around how LegendOfTotalWar plays?

    Why would you not blob with the doom fleyers? AI doesnt blob.
  • Seethe#1847Seethe#1847 Registered Users Posts: 260
    edited April 2019

    Seethe said:

    WTF CA. Please nerf Demigryph Knights ASAP




    I have no words...




    Do I even need to do the Knights of the Blazing Sun and Empire Knights test. It's so obvious you sent Ikit forward to blob the AI and then wreck it with your death stack. What next? CA should balance around how LegendOfTotalWar plays?

    Why would you not blob with the doom fleyers? AI doesnt blob.
    You can apply the same logic to anything. These kind of tests only prove how **** the AI is
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    edited April 2019
    Seethe said:

    Seethe said:

    WTF CA. Please nerf Demigryph Knights ASAP




    I have no words...




    Do I even need to do the Knights of the Blazing Sun and Empire Knights test. It's so obvious you sent Ikit forward to blob the AI and then wreck it with your death stack. What next? CA should balance around how LegendOfTotalWar plays?

    Why would you not blob with the doom fleyers? AI doesnt blob.
    You can apply the same logic to anything. These kind of tests only prove how **** the AI is
    Replicate the results with gorebeast chariots, please
  • harngerstein#5553harngerstein#5553 Registered Users Posts: 1,029
    I'll pay you one Aranessa 3-shotting an arch lector, two infinite heartrender procs, a Tomb Blade construct blob and throw in a couple of charlemagnes for a fixed doom flayer, 245 range on WJs and a reduced suppression to 20%.

    Deal?
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Registered Users Posts: 9,681
    I don’t see any reason doomflayers shouldn’t be good against non AP cav. But obviously they need some cost effective counters both Melee and ranged, and even against their prey they shouldn’t be completely invulnerable to damage.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Chariots being countered by cav is pretty well established. Otherwise they become 72 speed armored minotaurs with 3 entities and some 1500+ hp per model plus chariot collision damage. That sounds like a good idea!
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,659

    Chariots being countered by cav is pretty well established. Otherwise they become 72 speed armored minotaurs with 3 entities and some 1500+ hp per model plus chariot collision damage. That sounds like a good idea!

    only if they have art range shooting with fire on the move and 360 shot.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Registered Users Posts: 9,681

    Chariots being countered by cav is pretty well established. Otherwise they become 72 speed armored minotaurs with 3 entities and some 1500+ hp per model plus chariot collision damage. That sounds like a good idea!

    oh you mean it's not ok for a unit to be invulnerable vs other units in melee? welcome to my world. I agree everything should take damage even if it's fighting something it counters.

    That said, don't most rosters have either AP ranged or AP cav/monsters? Those two should be allowed to be cost effective counters of these guys.

    The unit is ridiculous. But I would not mind it having unique strengths for a chariot if it also had some weaknesses.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,747
    Yeah i hope they could keep the ''sustained-combat-meat-slicing-machine'' and make it less of a cycle charger, it would give it a unique feeling and role for a ''chariot'' unit.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Registered Users Posts: 9,681
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Chariots being countered by cav is pretty well established. Otherwise they become 72 speed armored minotaurs with 3 entities and some 1500+ hp per model plus chariot collision damage. That sounds like a good idea!

    oh you mean it's not ok for a unit to be invulnerable vs other units in melee? welcome to my world. I agree everything should take damage even if it's fighting something it counters.

    That said, don't most rosters have either AP ranged or AP cav/monsters? Those two should be allowed to be cost effective counters of these guys.

    The unit is ridiculous. But I would not mind it having unique strengths for a chariot if it also had some weaknesses.
    nah, it's as easy as this unit compares to Gorebeast, costs the same, but is 200% more effective. No need to derail, imply anything or overthing it.
    Sounds like you're completely agreeing with me. The unit is ridiculous. But I have no problem if it did some things better than and differently from a gorebeast.

  • harngerstein#5553harngerstein#5553 Registered Users Posts: 1,029
    In the lore they're designed less like motorcycles and more like bowling balls. Line em up and knock en down. I'm pretty sure that once they invented the warpstone engine they became unmanned.

    Obviously thats not how this game works, but making them beasts in sustained combat is the opposite of what they are in the lore. They should have insane charge bonus and absolute garbage melee defence. They should have less MD than gyros imo. Homeboy riding on the back is literally unprotected.
  • Seethe#1847Seethe#1847 Registered Users Posts: 260
    edited April 2019

    Seethe said:

    Seethe said:

    WTF CA. Please nerf Demigryph Knights ASAP




    I have no words...




    Do I even need to do the Knights of the Blazing Sun and Empire Knights test. It's so obvious you sent Ikit forward to blob the AI and then wreck it with your death stack. What next? CA should balance around how LegendOfTotalWar plays?

    Why would you not blob with the doom fleyers? AI doesnt blob.
    You can apply the same logic to anything. These kind of tests only prove how **** the AI is
    Replicate the results with gorebeast chariots, please



    Please note that I had an extra gorebeast chariot....because they're CHEAPER as opposed to "the same price" as some people around here would lead you to believe. Ikit was on a Doom Flayer, and Khazrak was on a chariot too.

    It's funny though, this thread reminds me to the good old days of World of Warcraft. Forums full of clueless people calling for NEEEEERFS to the left and right. Jezzails are very strong. Ratling Gunners are very strong but suck in bad terrain and sieges, Doom Flayers are decent and the only fast unit that Skaven have. But people want to take that away as well it seems. Looks like Skaven being F tier for two years was definitely not enough.


  • Seethe#1847Seethe#1847 Registered Users Posts: 260
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Chariots being countered by cav is pretty well established. Otherwise they become 72 speed armored minotaurs with 3 entities and some 1500+ hp per model plus chariot collision damage. That sounds like a good idea!

    oh you mean it's not ok for a unit to be invulnerable vs other units in melee? welcome to my world. I agree everything should take damage even if it's fighting something it counters.

    That said, don't most rosters have either AP ranged or AP cav/monsters? Those two should be allowed to be cost effective counters of these guys.

    The unit is ridiculous. But I would not mind it having unique strengths for a chariot if it also had some weaknesses.
    nah, it's as easy as this unit compares to Gorebeast, costs the same, but is 200% more effective. No need to derail, imply anything or overthing it.
    Sounds like you're completely agreeing with me. The unit is ridiculous. But I have no problem if it did some things better than and differently from a gorebeast.

    They should definitely be better than gorbeasts, because gorbeasts are cheaper
  • Seethe#1847Seethe#1847 Registered Users Posts: 260
    Also, doom flayers are not even "chariots". They are labeled as war machines.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Registered Users Posts: 9,681
    Seethe said:

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Chariots being countered by cav is pretty well established. Otherwise they become 72 speed armored minotaurs with 3 entities and some 1500+ hp per model plus chariot collision damage. That sounds like a good idea!

    oh you mean it's not ok for a unit to be invulnerable vs other units in melee? welcome to my world. I agree everything should take damage even if it's fighting something it counters.

    That said, don't most rosters have either AP ranged or AP cav/monsters? Those two should be allowed to be cost effective counters of these guys.

    The unit is ridiculous. But I would not mind it having unique strengths for a chariot if it also had some weaknesses.
    nah, it's as easy as this unit compares to Gorebeast, costs the same, but is 200% more effective. No need to derail, imply anything or overthing it.
    Sounds like you're completely agreeing with me. The unit is ridiculous. But I have no problem if it did some things better than and differently from a gorebeast.

    They should definitely be better than gorbeasts, because gorbeasts are cheaper
    Same price
  • Seethe#1847Seethe#1847 Registered Users Posts: 260
    eumaies said:

    Seethe said:

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Chariots being countered by cav is pretty well established. Otherwise they become 72 speed armored minotaurs with 3 entities and some 1500+ hp per model plus chariot collision damage. That sounds like a good idea!

    oh you mean it's not ok for a unit to be invulnerable vs other units in melee? welcome to my world. I agree everything should take damage even if it's fighting something it counters.

    That said, don't most rosters have either AP ranged or AP cav/monsters? Those two should be allowed to be cost effective counters of these guys.

    The unit is ridiculous. But I would not mind it having unique strengths for a chariot if it also had some weaknesses.
    nah, it's as easy as this unit compares to Gorebeast, costs the same, but is 200% more effective. No need to derail, imply anything or overthing it.
    Sounds like you're completely agreeing with me. The unit is ridiculous. But I have no problem if it did some things better than and differently from a gorebeast.

    They should definitely be better than gorbeasts, because gorbeasts are cheaper
    Same price
    My bad, confused with razorgors. Beastmen names are stupid
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,747

    In the lore they're designed less like motorcycles and more like bowling balls. Line em up and knock en down. I'm pretty sure that once they invented the warpstone engine they became unmanned.

    Obviously thats not how this game works, but making them beasts in sustained combat is the opposite of what they are in the lore. They should have insane charge bonus and absolute garbage melee defence. They should have less MD than gyros imo. Homeboy riding on the back is literally unprotected.

    hmm well i went with what someone said in another forum on how they work on TT. Maybe I misunderstood. In any case i d rather them being something a bit more different than mini doomwheels. At least their ability corresponds better with sustained combat.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • Dracklor#9977Dracklor#9977 Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    edited April 2019
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    I don’t see any reason doomflayers shouldn’t be good against non AP cav. But obviously they need some cost effective counters both Melee and ranged, and even against their prey they shouldn’t be completely invulnerable to damage.

    uuuh, they're chariots? Also, not all factions have AP cav, so how do you propose I kill a 72 speed unit with super tiny hitbox with for example High Elves?
    Though even if cav is supposed to be the counter to chariots, doesnt mean much cheaper non ap cav should beat them, just like cav counters archers, yet sisters of Averlorn beat light cav in a fight. To a certain degree its acceptable.

    But son't interprete this as me saying they are fine, I said multiple times that they are not.


  • Frook#4684Frook#4684 Registered Users Posts: 284
    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    Seethe said:

    Seethe said:

    Seethe said:

    WTF CA. Please nerf Demigryph Knights ASAP




    I have no words...




    Do I even need to do the Knights of the Blazing Sun and Empire Knights test. It's so obvious you sent Ikit forward to blob the AI and then wreck it with your death stack. What next? CA should balance around how LegendOfTotalWar plays?

    Why would you not blob with the doom fleyers? AI doesnt blob.
    You can apply the same logic to anything. These kind of tests only prove how **** the AI is
    Replicate the results with gorebeast chariots, please



    Please note that I had an extra gorebeast chariot....because they're CHEAPER as opposed to "the same price" as some people around here would lead you to believe. Ikit was on a Doom Flayer, and Khazrak was on a chariot too.

    It's funny though, this thread reminds me to the good old days of World of Warcraft. Forums full of clueless people calling for NEEEEERFS to the left and right. Jezzails are very strong. Ratling Gunners are very strong but suck in bad terrain and sieges, Doom Flayers are decent and the only fast unit that Skaven have. But people want to take that away as well it seems. Looks like Skaven being F tier for two years was definitely not enough.


    Gorebeasts chariots are in chaos roster. Take them and destroy Demis vs AI
  • AngradAngrad Registered Users Posts: 21
    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    You think that nerfing their weapon strength by nearly 50% on top of everything else will make them “balanced?” Seems like overkill.

    This whole forum reads like “I lost to Skaven and Lizardmen the day new content is released please nerf!”

    In tournament play neither faction has been completely dominant and have been stomped on by good players. They are stronger now yes, but they should be. Skaven were near bottom tier before the update and it was right for the added units to make them better and harder to play against.
  • mightygloin#2446mightygloin#2446 Registered Users Posts: 6,279
    Also many people claim that TT stats for units aren't closely followed for gameplay reasons or balance or something, but even if TT stats were more closely followed, the game would not only be more consistently balanced than this, but also it would be easier to handle while causing less power creep to new content. This unit wouldn't be this crazy, or Jezzails wouldn't have 300 range out of nowhere, Giants wouldn't be running slower than some naked dwarfs and so on..
  • harngerstein#5553harngerstein#5553 Registered Users Posts: 1,029
    Angrad said:

    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    You think that nerfing their weapon strength by nearly 50% on top of everything else will make them “balanced?” Seems like overkill.

    This whole forum reads like “I lost to Skaven and Lizardmen the day new content is released please nerf!”

    In tournament play neither faction has been completely dominant and have been stomped on by good players. They are stronger now yes, but they should be. Skaven were near bottom tier before the update and it was right for the added units to make them better and harder to play against.
    Just so you are aware they have approximately 2x the WS of other chariots. Cutting the WS by 50% would put them around the heaviest AP chariots. They would still perform very well due to their armor and animations. Not sue what CA was thinking, but I wanted to clear that up for you / others
  • BjornBjorn Registered Users Posts: 114
    edited April 2019
    Angrad said:

    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    You think that nerfing their weapon strength by nearly 50% on top of everything else will make them “balanced?” Seems like overkill.

    This whole forum reads like “I lost to Skaven and Lizardmen the day new content is released please nerf!”

    In tournament play neither faction has been completely dominant and have been stomped on by good players. They are stronger now yes, but they should be. Skaven were near bottom tier before the update and it was right for the added units to make them better and harder to play against.
    I played quite a lot on release day and a little later and quite often won against the skaven, but I am absolutely sure that they are too strong.
    Increase hit boxing at times and reduce speed is the MINIMUM that is required to be done.

    They are so easily abused that it doesn’t even require a huge skill.

    Passive ability is also superfluous. This unit, like a chariot unit, has no pronounced weaknesses, coupled with how the Skaven fraction on the release feels, this is an imbalance.
    Here you need to either pull up the rest of the faction or nerf rats.

    In my opinion, ratlinguns also need to reduce the slowdown.
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